speaker-0 (00:00) So Veronica, we are not in my basement. We are actually in someone else’s basement today. I have the pleasure of introducing our real first guest, besides my husband. And in person. Yes, this is, she has been my friend, my mentor, my boss, my listener when I’ve needed like Shannon, I need help. But I’m thrilled. She’s a podcaster herself, a speaker.

I’m thrilled to introduce Shannon Popkin today to our listeners, which we’ve mentioned you before on the podcast, but now we actually get to hear you. So thank you so much for coming. Well, thanks for being on our podcast.

speaker-1 (00:41) Thank you for having me. This is such a delight. And Veronica, it’s been fun to get to know you a little bit too, through Erica. Like this is just, I feel like Erica, we have this partnership in the gospel, you know? I mean, really, we talk about Bible teaching, your rich background with studying at the Jerusalem University College. Did I get that right? ⁓ And just having all this.

like insight with the history and the geography of the Bible has just been so helpful for me. I actually just wrote my acknowledgments for my latest book and mentioned your name in there.

speaker-0 (01:19) I enjoyed reading your latest book. little bit I got to Shannon, cannot wait for it to come

speaker-1 (01:24) You’re

so kind. No, you were one of my beta readers. And then you did a couple episodes on Jonah with me. And those really, really helped. I mean, you and Brian.

speaker-0 (01:34) to the commentary.

speaker-1 (01:37) Yes, exactly. no, those are so helpful for me. And just writing that chapter, I’m so excited about that chapter. I think it might be my favorite one, although you could talk me into any of them.

speaker-0 (01:48) You want to share

just a little bit about your new book that’s coming out?

speaker-1 (01:51) Sure. It’s, ⁓ the new title is Kinda Judgy, Finding Mercy for Myself and Others in Six Stories of the Bible. So I looked at these six different stories and what they tell us about the truth about God’s judgment and His mercy. then how should we live like those things are true? Whether we’re talking, feeling judged by God, feeling judged by other people.

or whether we’ve become kind of like the Pharisees and we’re judging others and looking down our noses at them. So yeah, I think this would be a really helpful book because I do think many of us are kind of judgy.

speaker-0 (02:28) Yeah, I know the chapter I read, I was very convicted. It was like, ⁓ I didn’t even think about it that way, Shannon. It was very well written, very convicting, but like not in such a way that I didn’t want to keep reading. It’s like, okay, I need to keep reading to find out other places where Lord, you are speaking to me I do need to start giving grace and mercy more. It was very well done. So I’m excited for the whole book.

speaker-1 (02:41) Yes.

Thank you. I hope that it will be well received. was totally, it was a blessing for me to write it.

speaker-0 (02:57) I’m do my normal, I’m taking the microphone now. We’re used to this. But what I like is how Erica’s saying from your story, reading your book, there’s stories in there that convicted her. it’s like, stories are such a teaching tool that I don’t know we often think about it. You we think about stories being entertaining. I love to read books, you know, people read just cause it’s enjoyable, it’s relaxing. We watch movies cause that’s a story.

speaker-1 (03:01) to share.

speaker-0 (03:27) But you don’t walk away from books and movies always going, ⁓ I learned a lesson here. A really good one, you’ll walk away, especially good books, will have those less takeaway lessons that you go, ⁓ I needed to be reminded of that. But in that, opens us up to, so there’s obviously stories in the Bible.

speaker-1 (03:46) Yeah, well, and let me just go back on to something you just said. Like, I think it actually would be good for us to look at the movies that we watch, the TV shows, the things that we’re consuming, not just as entertainment, because there are messages, we are being taught things. And, ⁓ you know, if we were to be a little more mindful about that, I think we would notice we’re actually being influenced by.

truth, you know, truth statements, truth ideas that are being fed to us. And the Bible has that same intention. It’s like, God is using story to show, not tell. And we’re meant to read the story parts of the Bible. Now, the whole Bible is not that form of literature. There’s a whole bunch of different forms of literature of the Bible, but the parts that are story.

that our narrative, like we are supposed to read them that way. And so it’s not wrong for us to just enjoy the story components and to imagine. think that’s really what the author is asking us to do. And the more detailed they are about like when they say something like, behold, or now, you know, like Genesis three, now the serpent was more crafty than any of the other beasts of the field. Like we’re supposed to enter in like, you know, imagine and feel the story and to

relate to it that way. And actually, if we don’t, we’re missing something. we are, you know, let me just give you an example. I wrote a book on the life of Sarah, which Erica, I know you did a review of that was so helpful, but there was a part where I was being challenged, you know, editorial teams, they’re always wanting to like make sure that it’s really good. And I so appreciate my publishers, like nothing bad about anyone that I’ve ever worked with. I’ve always enjoyed my editors, but there was, ⁓

one part of the editorial reviewers getting a little pushback on saying that for Sarah to include Hagar in their marriage, that that was, I was saying that was a misstep. I was saying that was a lack of faith. And we had already made the point that Abraham and Sarah, didn’t know God, you know, they were just, they were learning about him. And so as the story unfolds, like we know way more about them than Abraham and Sarah did at the beginning. And so,

the reviewer was saying, I mean, wouldn’t that be true with the, in the sense of Hagar? Like they didn’t know this was just culturally acceptable to take a second wife when the first wife wasn’t able to produce children. And so like, this is just what you do culturally. And they were just following cultural norms. They didn’t have the 10 commandments yet. didn’t, know, so like, how would they know otherwise? And so can we really criticize? But what I, how I responded was no, no, no, this is a story.

This is a story written by an author. This is a literary genre. Moses is not just chronicling different events. Moses is choosing episodes and he’s showing us that our forefathers of the faith, that they had moments of great faith and they had moments where there were lapses and they didn’t walk in faith. And this is one of them. And so we’re watching, this is the hero’s journey and this is where the conflict comes in. so this, ⁓

self-reliance. Actually, this is a story. Yes, it’s a story about two people, but it’s also a salvation story. it’s, it’s like, this is the gospel just beginning where God has promised, I will send, you know, this snake crusher, the savior. And we don’t know where that’s going to come from. Like which seed in Genesis, you know, we’re looking for that seed. It’s like the only clue we get at the beginning is that this, the savior is going to be born of a woman.

So that’s why we have all of these Toledo, am I saying that correctly? These Toledo where we’re looking at these different generations, because we’re looking for that seed. That’s as we turn the pages. And so then we have this story where God promises this barren couple, I’m going to make of you a great nation so we know there’s going to be baby. And our assumption is, this might be the savior, right? And so how is the savior going to come? Is it going to come through self-reliance? Like I have to do something.

God’s like, no, because he starts out in Genesis 12. I will, I will, I will, I will make of you a great nation. And in Genesis 16, that’s where the Hagar, I call it the Hagar solution. That’s where Sarah is saying, perhaps I can. And so see, this is a misstep of faith. That’s the storyteller is taking us on a journey and challenging like, no, this is the story of faith, the story of salvation. This is not like you have to produce salvation for yourself.

And when you try, you’re actually setting up a competition between self-reliance and faith. And that’s what we see in Ishmael and Isaac. So sorry, long-winded answer, but.

speaker-0 (08:33) There’s a story there that I’ve never even really considered of what are the lessons other than just how I think the takeaways don’t have more than one wife.

speaker-1 (08:43) Yes,

no, we’re not. Yeah, that’s not the point, right?

speaker-0 (08:46) But there’s

so much there that it’s like if someone takes and tweaks it just a little bit, you’re like, ⁓ there’s so many lessons there. And it just comes so much bigger and more into my own life of, ⁓ yeah, I do that too.

speaker-1 (08:58) Yeah, no, the self-reliance thing. I mean, that was one of my biggest takeaways with that book and that, yeah, just her story is like, she was trying so hard and she was trying to deal with her own shame of what she couldn’t produce. And yet God is not, God’s like, I will, you know, but we need to wait. And so faith is waiting when we don’t know how it’s going to turn out. yeah, so yeah, I think that these stories of the Bible are meant to be read as literature.

And I think what’s beautiful about them is that they will think about who, who is the, you know, the general editor of the Bible ⁓ and who is our creator. It’s God. think he knows that we are these story driven creatures. He’s the one who made our brains. And so I, and he’s overseeing the Bible, you know, I mean, to a much, much smaller degree, I experienced that same sort of like inspiration of like, what will my next book be about? And I feel like.

in God’s, spirit inspires me, you know? And as I’m dreaming about it and I’m thinking about it, he definitely is influencing that process. And that’s, mean, that’s our whole Bible in a much more significant way is being influenced because this is God inspiring these holy, you know, men of all these writers to write. And so this was God’s idea. It was his design.

⁓ not only in the different episodes of the individual stories in the Bible, but also in this overarching narrative. I mean, there’s no book like the Bible, know, 66 books where it is all telling one overarching story where these authors didn’t know each other. It’s pretty amazing. Yeah. And I’m sure you guys, you’ve talked a lot about that on your, on your show, but I’m just curious. What’s your favorite story of the Bible?

speaker-0 (10:45) Oh, the current one. I know I was going to say it’s normally the one I’m studying. So Deuteronomy, I’m not sure it’s totally a story right now, but I guess now that I think about that, I love Exodus. I love the Exodus event. Every time I study it or talk about or think about it, I feel like there’s always more that comes out of that story. I love. It’s just such a picture.

speaker-1 (11:09) Like why what what are you?

speaker-0 (11:13) of how God works and moves and he saves his people out of Egypt and then brings them into covenant with him and tells them, okay, here’s how you live. And as I just, get this picture and we’ve talked about this on the podcast that as they’re walking out of Egypt and he’s just battled the gods of Pharaoh and it’s like, he is standing over them going, I’m the Victor. I did this, bring it on. Who else is gonna, who wants to challenge me now? Next, like in Pharaoh and Egypt are just.

bloodied and beaten and their gods are just decimated. And so every time someone gets saved today, they’re being brought out of the kingdom of darkness into his kingdom. And each time it’s like, God is standing over the person going, I did this. I saved this one. This is another trophy on my mantle that look what I can do. I’m God. It’s just such this overwhelming introduction of God into world history that makes you go, he’s, he’s just, he’s God. And so I love that picture.

speaker-1 (12:10) I love that too, introduction into world history because these aren’t just stories like, you know, just like that someone made up these actually, and God is interacting with the narrative as it unfolds. And so you’re right, he is introducing himself into the world’s narrative, you know, the history of the whole world, which.

he introduced the world itself, which that only makes sense. But I thought your, you guys, your series on Exodus was amazing. In fact, my son is ⁓ a middle school director and he’s teaching through the book of Exodus. And I just sent him your episodes. like, you gotta listen. And what you just said was one of the most powerful takeaways. just thought of like, God.

God going toe to toe with, yeah, like bring it on. Like I’m gonna be, you know, over these gods. ⁓ But also like the story of moving from slavery to freedom, right? The Red Sea was like a birth canal, you know? There’s imagery, right, with the going through the water where they’re entering this new life and it’s a new life collectively as a people of God. And so then 10 Commandments, they’re like, ⁓

marriage vows, you know, this is like their media, there, there’s this covenant and they’re entering this relationship and these are gifts like God’s like, I want it to go so well for you. And this is what this is going to be a beautiful way to live. And you know, I just love, I love the time commandments and especially the Sabbath, you know, I’m not like Pharaoh. I’m not, I’m not going to work you to death. My people will rest. is how I’m, I’m giving you this beautiful new life. So yeah, I mean, there’s so much in that story. Uh, do you have another one?

Veronica.

speaker-0 (13:52) I mean, all of it, I just go, I love that God.

gave us all these pictures. know, I just, cause that’s what sticks. And I think that’s why Exodus really resonates with people is because that is such a powerful picture. The other picture I have then is just when we did Habakkuk with Erechah’s Brian of just how it ends with God is that warrior king coming back and it sticks where Habakkuk it’s like, it’s actually a story. And it’s that conversation with God of how long are we going to suffer and why are you allowing this and God going, okay, you want to know how it’s going to end? Cause sometimes

Erica does it. She jumps to the end of a book because she like, no, mean, to me, I go, you got to savor and build up, but I don’t savor. I’m rushing through to get to the end. Cause it’s like, I need to know how this all works out. And just that God gives us that continual picture of, trust me, it’s going to end well. If you’re on my side, if you’re in my kingdom, there’s peace and comfort. Cause you read those books and you go, ⁓ I can look around and go, everything looks dark and bleak and horrible.

speaker-1 (14:29) Ready, Nottie?

speaker-0 (14:55) and get really discouraged. But if I keep that picture of Habakkuk 3, if God is the warrior king and he’s coming back one day and you go, okay, I can rest and have peace in this.

speaker-1 (15:05) Yes, yeah. I mean, he wants us to know the end of the story. He does not think we are cheating. I know. No, I mean, because really, if you know the ending, you can flip back to wherever you are in the story and find. mean, when you’re suffering, you know, like in Habakkuk’s day, you you want to have some hope. And so many of us were looking for that hope.

And the storyline of the Bible gives that to us. Jesus, I think what’s so interesting about Jesus is that the first time he doesn’t come as the warrior king, you know, that he like, that’s what we’re kind of expecting. And that doesn’t mean he won’t, you know, the imagery and revelation is he will come again as a warrior king. But Tim Keller says that if he, if he first came as the warrior king,

He would have just annihilated everyone and there would be no one to save, right? So, yeah, so he had to come first as the suffering servant so that there would be someone to save. But we have such hope because of him, because he came as the suffering servant. And so I think the stories of Jesus are probably my favorite in the Bible. I love just what they reveal because Jesus is the exact representation of God.

And ⁓ his character is so complex. I feel like I’m still learning to read these stories, because you have these ideas as a kid. And then you grow up and you start understanding, ⁓ I understand a little bit more about I’m not a great history person, but understanding Rome and what was happening politically. just actually, for the book we were talking about, I went back to the resurrection. And I realized, man, I really haven’t just soaked my heart in.

the story of the cross and the resurrection. every year at Easter, we celebrate this. But I just haven’t let it grip me. so anyway, I just think the stories of Jesus, one of my favorites is him walking on the water, where in Mark’s version of the story, it says that Jesus, they see him walking on the waves, and Mark says he meant to pass by them. And you’re like,

here we go. It’s the fourth watch of the night. That’s between three and six in the morning. When I’ve been out in a storm, like about to die, like feeling like my life is going to end here. The last thing I want is for Jesus to just like walk by me. I want him to come to me. I want him to stop the storm. I want him to be with me in the storm, whatever. And he does at the end of the story, he does all those things. But what Jesus decides is the most important thing for them to see.

is for him to walk by them. Like he’s displaying his glory. And at the end of Matthew’s version of the story, they say, surely this is the son of God. And so this is the big reveal. This is the big moment God is showing, not just telling us. And the other thing I love about that story is Jesus could have on a sunny day, stepped out and said, ha ha, look what I can do. Why didn’t he? Why didn’t he? think because he knows that we’re so much less.

likely to believe that we’re not in control on a sunny day. like it takes that storm. takes like, why wait so long? Why, why wait there out there all night? But we need convincing that we’re not actually the ones who are in control. But then in those storms, in the darkness with the wind and the waves, we’re more convinced than ever that we’re not the ones who are in control. But then he’s able to show us, but I am, you know, I’m not affected by gravity. I’m not affected by the storm. I am.

And that is that’s what is being revealed in this story. It’s a beautiful story. I think all of them each one there’s intentionality and you know God is the general author that general editor who’s revealing something amazing to us.

speaker-0 (18:57) But I like it too, because then you go, okay, if there’s a story in there, I don’t completely understand. Okay, dig. You know, that encouragement to, because I’m sure everyone listening to your podcast, listening to our podcast, are people who are studying. And it’s like, you know what, there’s stories and things you come across and you go, I don’t get this and I don’t like it. Well, dig a little deeper. Why don’t you like it? Erica hates first Kings 21. I do.

Which is? King Ahab and Naboth’s Vineyard. That bugs her. But they’re such a good story of repentance.

Kind of repetitive. But it’s such a good, know, what, cause there’s things that just grade us and it’s like, and it’s like, you know what, when it comes to the Bible, don’t just put it down and walk away. mean, maybe you have to for a little bit. I know Eric has had to do that with first Kings 21 and judges, but you go, okay, God, there’s something, there’s a reason you put this story in here.

speaker-1 (19:35) Okay, I gotta have you on my show to talk about that one.

speaker-0 (19:57) why, you know, and kind of pushing into God and going, I need to know why you did this. Why you put it, cause I’m sure given all that, what 1500 years from Genesis to whenever it was complete, you know, written, there’s plenty of stories that weren’t included, know, just like your editor is making you pick, switch your words here. Why did you do that? God, what’s the purpose here? And when I don’t like it, when I don’t understand, don’t walk away, keep digging.

speaker-1 (20:12) yeah, this was selective, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so it’s great when we’re talking about stories, it’s great to keep three contexts in mind. First of all, that overarching narrative, how does this story, where does it come in the overarching creation, fall, redemption, and consummation? Where does this story fall? And then thinking about the more, like the book, the genre, and the book itself, where does this story come in that? And then it’s immediate context of what came before and after. And so just those are great ways

you know, if you’re, if there’s a story that’s sticking in your throat and you’re just like, what is going on here? Look at those three contexts because you may get some insight, you know, that way. But I think stories are also really great, containers of truth. You know, we talked about how they’re memorable. Like we’re designed, I think God designed us as story driven creatures where that’s the way our brains work. Like brain science shows that the things are, our brains light up when we are interacting with story.

And you know what, this is really interesting too. I learned this in talk like Ted. ⁓ There’s, they call it neuro coupling. I’ve, I’ve talked about this a couple of times on my podcast where the storyteller, the part of my brain as a storyteller that’s lighting up and then the audience, whoever’s in my audience, the part of their brain that’s lighting up, it’s the same. It’s the same. So when I’m teaching, I’m using one part and they’re using a different part. But when I’m telling a story, we’re kind of like, it’s this coupling exercise.

Like we’re entering in, we’re experiencing something together. You’re identifying with me, you’re feeling emotion with me, you’re responding. You know, I’m getting you to feel and to see those same way that I feel. And so when you back up and think of God that way, like he’s doing this neuro coupling thing with us.

speaker-0 (22:11) He’s

wanting that. I I just to do that. Yeah. Okay, God, then you know, right? This is why we need stories. Yeah. Stories are so powerful.

speaker-1 (22:20) Yeah. Yeah. He wants us to feel something he feels, to know something he knows, to like react in the same way that he reacts. When I studied ⁓ Noah and the flood for this book, ⁓ kind of judgy, ⁓ I think most people come to the story of the flood kind of like, God is so harsh, so cruel. mean, he wiped the face of the earth, but what-

when we enter that story, we’re actually getting God’s perspective. Now God looked out on the face of the earth and he saw that the intentions of mankind was only always evil. mean, imagine that from God’s perspective. You know, he’s kind of drawing us into like, here’s how I see this. Like I created man in my own image and I said multiply across the face of the earth so that you can spread my glory so that the whole world would know how good I am, how kind I am, how creative I am. You know, like God wanted

the whole world to know Him. And that’s what’s happening. The people are spreading across the face of the earth, but they’re not spreading God’s image. They’re spreading this wickedness, this evil, like the antithesis of God. That’s what’s spreading. And so God wants us to see it from His perspective and to feel like it says that He was grieved. He was sad that He even made mankind. Like this was awful. It grieved His heart. And so we should feel

some of that grief and when we approach it that way in this kind of neuro coupling sort of way, well then we read the story correctly. You know, then we see, wait a minute, God was so good to provide an arc. You know, the story didn’t just end. He wanted us to know more than just about his judgment and his power. You know, if that’s all he wanted us to know in that story, it would be like there was a flood, the end, right? Our Bible would be a much shorter story.

But no, he wanted the story to go on. so he also tells, like, if you look at the word count of the story of the flood, it’s actually a very long, complex story because there’s a lot of chiastic structuring in it. But if you look at the word count, the most ink is given to the ark and what’s going to come after the ark. It’s like very little, you know, God didn’t have to plan the judgment. He just basically un-pinned creation and just let the waters fall back into chaos. Like that took no planning at all.

But he is throughout the whole thing, he’s planning this creation 2.0. He’s like getting ready for a reset. So anyway, that’s God’s heart. He wants for us to begin again. He doesn’t want us to know him as this God of harsh judgment. He wants us to know him as the merciful God. The arc rises above the waters of judgment. That’s what he wants us to know about himself. anyway, I just think like coming to these stories, knowing that God was involved.

and that he is a storytelling God and that he chose a people like you guys, you know, the, the color and context of the Bible. Did I get that right? Context and color of the Bible. and so it’s like, you want us to know, like this is this, these books of the Bible, they all come out of a specific group of people who have a culture, who have a language and their language is colorful and they’re the, the history of the,

Hebrew people is they are a storytelling people. That’s the way that they communicated their history. And even in just their culture, they think in stories. Am I correct on this? Like, ⁓ there’s this quote, let’s see, Kenneth Bailey, well, love Kenneth Bailey, right? He says that in the Middle East, from the beggar to the king, the primary method of creating meaning is through metaphor and story. This is what’s true about the Middle East. It’s like they, we put more emphasis as Western thinkers.

on thinking abstractly, you know, and thinking orderly, like we like an outline, right? If we’re going to say something really important, we’re going have a thesis statement, we’re going to prove it with all of these abstract ideas, logic, you know, A because of A and B, you know, whatever. That’s the way that we think. And that’s what we think. If we’re going to say something important, that’s how we’re going to say it. But in the Middle East, it’s the opposite. If you’re going to say something really important, you’re going to package it in a story.

Is that true? Comment on that. I’m curious what you guys would say about that.

speaker-0 (26:40) That is so true. But I think that’s partially why Jesus taught in parables because that was the way they thought. I mean, if you read anything the rabbis write, if you get into the Talmud, the Mishnah, like they are filled with stories. And then at the end, you’ll get like sometimes something that sums it up, but sometimes it’s just story after story as they’re trying to prove their point. don’t…

They don’t think there’s a difference between Western and Eastern culture. And so appreciating that helps you to go, you we talk about God being omnipotent, but they say the Lord is a strong tower. The righteous run into it in our saved. We talk about God loving the world, but they talk about, you know, God creating the world. And they give you a picture of what that looks like, which to me is, it just sticks in my brain so much more. So I appreciate that perspective. I love the stories.

speaker-1 (27:32) Yeah. Well, and I mean, I think we’re entering into a different culture when we open our Bible. I think we forget that, you know, we’re entering where it’s just like, you, if I were to pick up some other middle Eastern book, like I would never forget the fact that it was written by a middle Eastern writer in a different language. It’s been translated to me. Like I just wouldn’t forget that.

speaker-0 (27:53) I’m just thinking

like when you get like AI to like translate from like Chinese instructions to English instructions.

speaker-1 (28:02) You

get the instructions in your box and you’re like, Oh, someone translated this. This makes no sense. Right there. Exactly. But even, you know, like if we were to go over to Europe, we would keep, be keeping in mind like, okay, we have to remember they drive on the left side of the road, you know, like we just would have this mindset of like, I’m entering your territory. Um, when I went to, um, Jordan, our friends took us out for dinner and they were like, okay, you know, they’re going to

speaker-0 (28:05) It’s like, I think I got the right meaning.

speaker-1 (28:32) be bringing food to the table and they’re gonna keep bringing it.

you have to leave food. Otherwise they’re just gonna, if you finish what’s there, they will bring another, you know, so you always, we were always going to just leave a couple of pieces of bread in the basket. Otherwise they’ll just keep bringing it. was like, ⁓ good to know. Cause I, I’m sure I could, I could eat a couple of baskets of that bread, but ⁓ yeah. So it’s like you’re, need to know cultural things. ⁓ And so one of those cultural things is how important the story is. And just as this is, if they’re telling a story, are telling you the most important

And, and so not to like reduce that we think of stories as like childish or, you know, fairy tales, we don’t put as much emphasis. So I think just even the fact that we’re thinking about stories as a really an important part of our Bible study, you know, this is looking at the story and recognizing that, that it’s not a didactic.

piece of literature where I’m not coming to this story, you like you said with Hagar, it’s like, I’m not coming to this, like, this is God’s design for marriage. I’m coming to this, like, I’m learning about, is a person who’s coming to know God and coming to walk by faith. And this is their journey. And so God is showing me things, not.

not being so forthright, not so overt. Like even Jesus, when he was asked, who’s my neighbor, he told a story about the good Samaritan. Right. And so the guy and the guy who was asking was like saying, you know, tell me like, what are the parameters? Who do I, who do I have to be good to? Jesus, exactly. Like where’s, you know, how big is my neighborhood? You know, where are the, where are the boundary lines? And, and Jesus tells them the story. And what’s surprising is that you identify with

speaker-0 (30:07) my channel.

speaker-1 (30:21) the guy who’s bleeding. then from when you’re bleeding on the side of the road and you’re asking who’s my neighbor. Well, that’s a shift in perspective, right? Then you want anybody to be your neighbor. Like even this, like you’re thankful that the Samaritan is your neighbor. And so Jesus is like, you know, like you said with the, Talmud and the Mishnah, like it’s a series, they, they use story after story after story to try to.

to draw out like it’s in it’s more than just from the sidelines looking in. They’re trying to engage with your heart. They’re trying to invoke emotion, compassion, empathy for the person bleeding, you like you want, you’re identifying with that person and that’s really what stories do. They, they, interact with our heart and our, our emotions and God is an emotional God. And so you’re not wrong to

feel these stories and in fact, you’re very, right to do so. So I think they’re, they’re super memorable and they’re easy for us to retrieve. And I think we should retrieve the stories of the Bible with that in mind. Like what, what is a story I can go to that helps me to sort through what’s, what’s true and what’s right.

speaker-0 (31:33) Yeah, that’s a good, just a good, cause sometimes I go, I don’t know that the Bible tells me everything to do and it doesn’t. But if I go, is there a story that I can bring into this? I can see some truths and, take some application from that. I’m thinking of just, ⁓ as you were talking about that of King David, when Nathan came to him, he didn’t just come and go, Hey, you’re wrong. He came with a story that tugged at David’s heartstrings and got David to react to a story. And then it was like,

And here’s the twist. You’re that man. I mean, just how.

speaker-1 (32:03) Yes, yes. You are

the man. Storytelling.

speaker-0 (32:10) I

mean, that’s what the story is there to do. And going back to what we said at the beginning, how you said, no, if we pay attention to the movies, what are the truths we’re pulling at? Because whether we realize it or not, we’re pulling those truths or those lies out of that story. We’re pulling application from it. And it’s like, okay, if I’m going to put, if I’m gonna let stuff fill my mind, it needs to be.

the stories of scripture because then at least then it’s giving God something to work with.

speaker-1 (32:40) Yes,

exactly. Well, and stories are so easy to retain. mean, like, look, I’ve got a list here. The Tower of Babel is 230 words. The Prodigal Son is 514 words in my ⁓ ESV translation. The story of Jesus dying on the cross in Matthew is 120 words. Like, there’s such a brevity, but just think of all of the truth that is so packaged up.

in each one of those stories. Like we’re learning about God, about mankind, about ourselves. there’s so much contained. And if we can think of each of these stories like a container for truth, like just imagine, know, once you know the story, you can just retrieve it from your mind. Like I can, there are a dozen stories I could just tell you right now that I have stored up in my mind, which is how the Hebrew people would have, you know, they would have been able to just immediately

And it’s not a verbatim thing. It’s just like, I know the story and our minds can package that up. can recall stories because we’re engaging our imaginations. We’re picturing things. And so each of these little stories, we’re packaging up really good, rich theology. And if you can think of these, like think of your mind, like a shelf on your mind and all of these containers, each story is like a container and it’s holding together all of these.

rich gems, these beautiful truths about the gospel. ⁓ it packages them in a way that they’re accessible even for children. Children, I could tell a little kid the story of the Tower of Babel and they would get it. But you and I could have an hour long conversation and we would not scratch the depths of, or we wouldn’t get to the depths of how important that story is and all of the meaning behind it. And so.

We’ll spend the rest of our lives contemplating these stories and enjoying them and returning to them for the truth.

speaker-0 (34:38) Such good application. The rabbis talk about when the Messiah comes, he’ll explain even the spaces between the words. And I just love that. Like you said, Shannon, we will spend all eternity going over these stories and just constantly mining the truth that God has placed in them.

And I think that’s a great way to spend eternity personally. But why not start now? Why wait? Why not build up so that you’re that much farther when you enter eternity? Start now studying the stories, finding out what’s in there, and then you’ve got something to build on when you enter.

speaker-1 (35:13) Well, that’s how I feel when I talk with you guys. Like there’s so much there that I might miss, you know? And so like this is, this is a great way to use our imaginations and use our mind. And I think it takes practice, you know, like, so when you’ve got, you’re going for a walk or you’re going for a drive, why not think through some of your favorite stories of the Bible and why not introduce those in conversation? Because they provide a really great way to talk to other people and, and share truth. you know, like I’ve got,

a neighbor kid who, a couple of neighbor kids who I know they’re families, they’re not families of faith. And so when I get a chance, when they wander into my yard and they’re petting my dogs or whatever, I’ll say, hey, can I tell you another story? And I just tell them these little stories because I know they’re memorable and they’re powerful and you never know, they may take root, they may invite other questions and spark imagination. And I’ve got this window of time when they’re kids and they still come over and see me, right? And so.

These, if you’re a grandma and you’re concerned about your grandkids or maybe they are faith, a God loving family, you know, I mean, these are ways that you can invest in the next generation. You can invest in your kids, in your marriage, in, you know, your friendships. And I think in today’s day and age, it’s like, really, I think there’s a lot of division. You know, we’re looking at people going no contact and you know, there’s all like, I feel like with the, you guys both have.

coming to be young adult children. Erica, how old is your oldest? 17. Okay. So you’re getting there and you’ve got a young adult child. I’ve got three young adult children. And I think what’s what happens is, um, it’s just harder to talk. Like when they’re little, I can talk to them about truth. can, but now it’s like, we’re all adults here and I don’t want to be like this teacher Lee kind of, know, if there have been times, let’s say that I just want to repreach the sermon that I just heard because they really made it here. And if I do that,

what’s going to happen? I mean, shut you down. Yeah. Like they don’t want to hear that. exactly. But if I can say, you know, Hey, like there’s this, what about the story of this or that, you know, like, ⁓ so like, let’s say you’re, talking with someone in there saying, ⁓ God never judges anyone, know, these lies. Well, you can say, what about the story of the flood? You know,

speaker-0 (37:14) I’m old, Mom, don’t need a lecture.

speaker-1 (37:36) It just puts out there like, here’s a conversation piece. Like I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna debate you on whether God judges people because that’s this abstract idea. And you and I may have completely different ideas about what that means. ⁓ And, but we can talk about the story. Like what do you think that story is showing us? What’s the truth package in that story? Or let’s say somebody is saying, well, God is so harsh. He has no mercy for anyone. What about the cross? I mean, what do we see in that story? Like.

Do you see any of God’s mercy there on the cross? like why would, yeah, I can see like tw- if you just look at Jesus’s perspective, if that, if that death was just Jesus saying, father, if it’s possible that this cup pass and God says, no, I mean, yeah, that looks like harsh judgment, but doesn’t it also, you also see the mercy in that or, ⁓ you know, this idea that we should always protect ourselves first, you know, that’s really, I have to do what’s right for me. I have to put up my own boundaries. ⁓ well, what about the good Samaritan?

You know, what was that story? What was Jesus teaching? Was he teaching us to put up boundaries? I mean, that guy took some risk there. ⁓ you know, if this guy is bloodied on the side of the road, that means there might be someone nearby who would bloody you too. You know, so what is Jesus teaching us in that story and how can we put that into practice in our lives? You know, so I think

Pointing to a story is a way to invite others into conversation about something that is not just coming from you. It’s got an outside source that has more authority, hopefully. At least for you, it does. And you’re talking about something with concrete ideas that you can engage versus these abstracts of truth and justice and mercy and all of these things that people have different ideas about. So it’s a really great way to enter into conversation.

speaker-0 (39:21) But as you’re saying all that, I’m thinking, you know, a picture is worth a thousand words. And if I bring in a picture and I bring in the artist, they’re going to point out different things in the story. But if I bring in an art critic.

they’re gonna point out different things in that picture. And as you’re sitting here, it’s like, you’re bringing up things I never thought about. That’s why we need to study in community and have these conversations and go, let’s talk. You look, you think differently than I do. And we’re all looking at the same story, but because of your experience, the way your brain works, there’s different truths you’re gonna pull out than an Erica is, or I’m going to. And it’s like…

That’s why his story is so good because you can look at it a thousand times and each time pull out a different lesson or application or truth.

speaker-1 (40:06) Well, and even if you’re looking at that particular story differently than the person you’re talking with, at least you’re talking about the truth. Right. Right? And that is going to resonate. It’s going to bring up questions in their minds. I actually sat on a plane next to a woman, and we had this really long conversation. She was definitely not a believer. And she was headed over to, ⁓ where was she going?

She wanted to go visit, Germany, because she wanted to visit the Holocaust sites. And she also wanted to visit the red light district. And I was like, I said, those are, I said, that’s very intriguing to me. Why would you pick, like, why are those your, your favorite things that you’re going to see? And she’s like, I just, you know, I’m just intrigued by humanity and like what both of these things tell us about humanity. And I said, so what do you think they both tell about humanity?

speaker-0 (40:42) Wow.

speaker-1 (41:04) And she was like, I guess I haven’t really thought that much about it. And I said, well, can I share what I think they both say? I said, I think both of those are telling us what it looks like when we try to do life without God. When we cast aside his ideas of right and wrong and we decide for ourselves. Hitler was deciding what he thought was right. And it looked, mean, the whole world agrees right now that

that was very, very bad. But he was deciding for himself, no, this is really good. And he got a lot of people to agree with him. Now the red light districts, there are people who are deciding for themselves what is very, very good, you know, for human sexuality, right? And they are defying God’s ideas for sex and marriage. And so a lot of pain and suffering that are associated with these red light districts. And so I said, both of those are,

both of those bring me back to a story in the Bible. So I told her the story about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and how this is God just sat, he’s like, you know, this is this tree somehow contains the knowledge of what is good for us and what is bad for us. And God wanted that to be off limits. And so when Eve reached for, she wasn’t just reaching for fruit, she was reaching for control. She wasn’t just rejecting, you know, God.

God’s rule, this one off limits tree in the garden. She was rejecting God’s rule over her to decide for her what was good and what was right. So anyway, so we had this conversation and I could tell she was, you know, she was like, okay, I don’t, you know, I asked, have you read the Bible? Yeah, I’ve given it a try before and you know, it didn’t work for me or stuff like that. And then, ⁓ and, so then she turned to me and she’s like, I just have one question about this whole, you know, faith thing and, know, your relationship with God or whatever.

And she’s like, does he control you?

And I said, okay, so so interesting because the way that I took that question, I was like, well, that actually relates back to this whole story with the tree. I said, you know, when God was in control, that’s when life flourished, like that’s when life was good. And the more that I give God rule and reign over my life, the more my life flourishes. And so I said, what’s interesting about me right now is I have a choice because God sent Jesus.

to die for my sin and to give me this forgiveness. And so now I can walk this new path. I have this freedom. I’m not like chained to my sin and I can actually give him control, but I have the choice of whether moment by moment, day by day, am I going to be the one who’s acting like I’m in control versus him being in control? And she’s like, ⁓ okay. Okay. And, and okay. So then she goes to the bathroom and then she comes and she sits back down and I, and so I had been thinking about this whole thing.

And I said, I know we’re done talking about that whole thing, but I got to tell you something that is so intriguing to me. And she’s like, okay. And I said, when you asked that question about is God controlling you, you were thinking that’d be a really bad thing, right? And she was like, yeah. And I was like, oh, I have a whole different perspective on that now. I think of that as a really, really good thing. And I realized that I answered your question.

just with that assumption that that is a really, really good thing. And I would just invite you to consider that you think of that as really bad, that God would be controlling you. He would decide what’s good for you and what’s bad for you. But I’ve come to see it in a different way. We’re looking at the same story of this tree in this garden, and I am looking at it like, oh, it would have been so good for her to let God have control over that. And you’re looking at that.

like you would probably still want to take that fruit, you know, because you don’t want God to have control. And so just, I said, just think about like when you go visit that Holocaust museum and when you go to that red light district, just imagine what it would look like if God was the one who was ruling in these different realms of the world. So anyway, it was very interesting to me.

speaker-0 (45:12) Did you also tell her you have a book called Control Girl?

speaker-1 (45:15) I don’t think I did. ⁓

speaker-0 (45:17) right

there, it’s not a book.

speaker-1 (45:20) And so like, why don’t I have business cards? I just don’t, never have them on me. I think I gave her my name or whatever. I don’t think I mentioned I was an author, but I had been at a conference. It was actually a medical, it was like for Christian doctors and I hadn’t spoke. I did a breakout session. And so I had just been at that conference and they gave her her business little book. So I’m like, here’s a little book. And she’s like, okay. And she’s putting it, I’m like, she’s gonna throw that in the first trash can she goes around, but maybe the story that I could imagine that story like taking root in her.

You know.

speaker-0 (45:52) What is you’re giving us simple ways to share our faith and connect with others. mean, the idea of kids coming in your yard and going, let me tell you a story. Little kids love stories. I mean, what a neat way for those of us who do interact with people who aren’t of the faith yet and go, let me tell you one little thing. Here’s just a little story. And just because that brings a connection and it draws you back.

speaker-1 (46:15) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can I give you one more example? My son was, this was a few years ago and he was dealing with something at work. He’s probably like 19, 20 years old. ⁓ And he was, you know, as he was talking about what was going on in the workplace, I was thinking like, I really want to preach this around. You know, I really, I think he’s wrong about some things. I think he’s seeing this incorrectly, but I know, you know, that if I do this, it’s

he’s going to walk out of this room and we’re not going to continue the conversation. And so instead I made a very conscious decision ⁓ to talk about Gideon and how Gideon, like the odds were all against him and how, you know, he’s the smallest of the smallest tribe. He has no authority. He’s like the youngest. don’t remember. I had just studied the story, but, I said, God was with him, you know, and that’s what made the difference is that God was with him. And so he, he was like,

Thanks, mom, you we talked about it a little bit. then it was so fun because like the next day I heard him on the phone and he was retelling someone that story and reminding them, you know what, God was with Gideon. And I’m like, oh, that’s just amazing. Like that’s the power of a story. It just drops the guard down. It lets the truth get in. And then the truth has legs and it goes into other conversations and into other.

Yeah, it captures your imagination and you’re still thinking about it the next day. Whereas I guarantee you, if you re-preach that sermon, the only thing that the person is re-thinking about the next day is like, my mom re-preaches the sermon every Sunday. it’s just another way to approach our people that we love and help have meaningful conversations about truth with.

speaker-0 (48:04) having a 17 year old starting to get into this phase where they definitely have their own opinions, their own perspectives for a long time. Yeah, she has, she’s such a first born, but I guess Shannon, that just hits me hard. Like I probably all too often fall back into that.

preaching mode, like, no, I’m going to tell this is right, this is wrong. And instead start to go, okay, Lord, help me share, give me a story to share with her. Cause she loves stories. She loves to read and just to connect with her that way will be so much better. Cause we had a conversation last night about a podcast. was listening and it’s a good podcast, but it’s on economics, but she brought in, there was a guest and I’m like, and the guest has this perspective. And, I,

got on my little soap box and I could tell like she was like, I know mom, I know that’s what you think. But what if I had shared a story? Like what if instead of spouting my opinion, I had listened and shared a story?

speaker-1 (49:00) Who gave us that lead? Who taught us? did. we’re just like your daughter, know, we’re embracing all the ideas of the world and we’re stumbling into like

speaker-0 (49:05) Jesus did that!

speaker-1 (49:14) know, believing lies, really. We have an enemy who is feeding us lies. And I have no idea economic, like that economic, I have no, I would have no opinion about that economics podcast. But, like, there are definitely lies that are coming in at us, you know, in a hundred different directions. And so how did God respond? He could have given us a book that was like, here’s the truth. And I want you to memorize the truth. And I’m going to give you all these abstract ideas. And no, he told us stories. He responded with stories. And so.

We’re just following his lead when we do that too.

speaker-0 (49:46) Well, I think we’re gonna wrap this up, because I think you’re coming back again, Shannon, to take us through a story. Let’s do it. In the Bible. So I think, yeah, I’ll let you wrap it up, I’m good. Thanks for joining us, and don’t forget to come back to here. Shannon’s gonna show us how to do it, what lessons we can learn. Yeah, let’s do it. Because then the idea is you take it and you apply it, take this story like Shannon said, put legs on it and walk it somewhere else. Thank you.

speaker-1 (49:54) Let’s do it.

Awesome, thank you.