speaker-0 (00:00) Megan Hill, welcome to Live Like It’s True. Thanks. I’m so excited to have you here. I’m just going to read your bio for those who haven’t met you yet. You’re a pastor’s daughter and a pastor’s wife. That says something maybe for your dad and how you grew up as a pastor’s kid that you were willing to do it again. ⁓ So you live in Massachusetts or children and your church is Springfield Covenant Community Church, a PCA church.

speaker-1 (00:04) me Shannon.

speaker-0 (00:29) there in Massachusetts. You’re the author of several books and the managing editor for the Gospel Coalition, which is how I know you. I love the Gospel Coalition. So thankful for all that you guys do, just curating really great truth for those of us who want to live in this cultural moment, you know, with the perspective of the Gospel. So, so thankful for your work there. ⁓ But we’re going to talk about your new book, Sighing on Sunday.

40 meditations for when church hurts. man, is such a church hurt is such a big topic. And I know that ⁓ in times when I’ve been hurting at church, it’s like, I am just so tender, so hurt. Like that hurt just goes deeper. I think it’s because we love the Lord so deeply and the church is so important to us that ⁓

We don’t necessarily know. It’s like it’s a different sort of hurt, right?

speaker-1 (01:29) I so. And we expect better of other Christians, right? When your unbelieving neighbors are pretty obnoxious to you or whatever, think, well, they don’t know Jesus, so that’s why they’re obnoxious. But then you come in church and you think, but these people say they love Jesus and they’re treating me poorly. so we expect better.

speaker-0 (01:47) Yeah, we expect better.

speaker-1 (01:48) you know, as church hurt can be so hurtful, it’s partly because it’s the things that happen in the church are so important to us. And so, you know, we, none of us want to be wrong or unrighteous or winning or whatever. And so if someone says to you, you know, I think you’re wrong here, that does cut very deeply. yeah.

speaker-0 (02:12) Well, and especially someone who’s in church leadership, you know, I mean, I would need more than one hand, Megan, right now to count up the situations that I have friends where I’m praying into, talking into friends who are in either a church or a ministry setting. And they’re not praying for God to move in the hearts of outsiders. They’re praying for God to move in the hearts of insiders, insiders who think they’re right.

And there’s another side to the story. so, man, I feel like it’s like these are the leaders that we trust. These are the leaders that we are hoping that will shepherd us through these situations. how do we deal with that sort of hurt when we feel maybe disoriented? Someone we’ve always trusted is under scrutiny or we feel

Like we’re taking up the side of someone. Like we disagree with the criticisms coming toward them. Do you have any thoughts?

speaker-1 (03:11) I mean, think scripture, first of all, it’s helpful for us to realize that scripture talks a lot about the subject of church hurt. ⁓ And even if we broaden out to the Old Testament, it’s not the church narrowly defined, but it’s God’s people that are being talked about, the covenant community in the Old Testament. so the Bible is not, not Pollyanna-ish about how hard it can be in the body. And so, you know, even as you’re talking about

church leaders and you know, feeling judged by church leaders. You know, I immediately think of someone like Hannah, right? In the Old Testament in first Samuel and you know, your listeners will be familiar with this story, but you know, she desperately wanted this baby. And so every year she would go up to the place of worship and she would pray. And Eli, who was meant to be the leader, he was the priest, the leader of God’s people there. You know, he saw her there and she was

crying, pouring out her heart before the Lord, and he assumed that she was drunk. And he said to her, stop, stop drinking, stop getting drunk and go home. And here she had come to the place of worship in this super vulnerable place actually to seek the face of the Lord. And he judged her wrongly as it turns out. And, you know, but the so interesting thing about Hannah, right, is that she then the Lord answers her prayer. She

she gives birth to Samuel and she takes him back to the place of worship. And I think, you know, that’s so shocking to us, right, that she would take him back there. But she believes that the place of worship was where God was. And so even in this hurtful situation with the leader, with Eli, she still wanted her son to grow up before the face of God. She still wanted her son to be in the place where God was and in God’s presence. And I think that’s one thing.

We always have to keep our eyes on that, that the church is the place where God reveals himself in his word and in Christ. And we keep our eyes on that even when we feel other people are not what they ought to be yet, as any of us aren’t what we ought to be yet.

speaker-0 (05:18) That’s so true. Yeah, I I see in that story, you’ve got an older believer criticizing a younger believer, right? If she’s in childbearing age, you know, she’s a young woman at this point and he’s this honored priest, you know, she’d come here every year. She probably knew him. He didn’t know her well enough to know that she would never be drunk in the temple, right? And so,

I mean, I feel like sometimes as younger believers, we can take up a hurt and take that hurt right out the door and kind of quit on church. I’ve been hurt. I’m not coming back. I feel judged by Christians. I’m done with that place. And what we see in Hannah is exactly the opposite. She persists not because, I mean,

Yes, there’s this beautiful kind of like a reconciliatory conversation between her and the priest, but that’s not why she comes back. She comes back because you’re right, God is indwelling this temple. Like this is His indwelling place. And now in the church age, God indwells believers, but yet church is His idea. He designed it. And we as believers were never designed

to be apart from the church. We’re not meant to live our Christian lives apart from one another. So do you have any words of wisdom for those who have kind of given up on church? I have someone I’m thinking of in my own very dear to my heart, who is one of those people that I would take more fingers to count, but they’re kind of contemplating, think I’m quitting on church. I think it’s just too hard. I think it hurts too much. So very tenderly, what’s your encouragement for them?

speaker-1 (07:04) Yeah, I mean it does hurt. I mean that is a very, very real feeling and it is so, so hard. And ⁓ I think everyone has experienced it to some degree and some people have experienced it to really, really severe degrees. And I think it’s important for us to just acknowledge that that is really hard. ⁓ And I think one thing that has been helpful, at least to me in seasons of hurt is to look to the example of

You know that Christ Christ came, know, Ephesians tells us that he came to redeem the church He came to make her this perfect bride that he is washing With water in the word and he’s going to present to himself the last day So so Jesus’s mission was to gather and perfect the church but in that mission of gathering and perfecting the church he experienced

a huge amount of hurt. He came to his own and his own received him not. He was rejected by the people of Israel.

speaker-0 (08:05) He

speaker-1 (08:05) so we’ve got racial, ethnic kind of judgment that is happening in the life of Christ. Then we have misjudgment of what his intentions were and what he was doing. then, you know, we have ⁓ then of course, the final judgment that he suffers on the cross. He suffers for the sake of his people. And so, but why is this comforting? Well, I think it’s comforting because

Not only is Christ our example, which he is, but also he’s there with us in that hurt. He knows, he has experienced those very deep judgments and hurts, and he walks with us and promises to be with us in that. And so we’re not doing it alone. We’re not going back next Sunday alone. We’re going back with a savior who understands. ⁓

speaker-0 (08:51) That’s so good, Megan. I remember just having this deep communion with God during my time of church hurt. It’s not so distant past. I mean, I was grieving and suffering. I mean, honestly, I did have to take a little break. just, my husband and I just watched online just for a few weeks. So I didn’t have to walk in and burst into tears. You know, it was just a really hard, hard season. But

Jesus was with me every step of the way. He was so dear to me and it did mean so much to me that he had been misjudged, that he had been rejected and that he didn’t quit on us. He never quit on us. I mean, for him to quit on us, it’d be the head being removed from the body. That wouldn’t work so well. So he went to the cross that we might be a body. if anyone

knows the hurt of the body. It’s the head, right? I mean, he feels that pain and that suffering with us. I think one of the things that I lean toward is like, you know, me and Jesus, we get this. We’re on the same page, right? You know, like I’m reading the Word and he’s comforting me and he’s showing me that I’m right. And those people are there. And so it’s like, I put him on my side.

of the issue, my side of, and I’m in me and Jesus. mean, when I put him on my side of the line, well, then that judgment feels really, you know, strong and forceful and I kind of feel more self-righteous about it. ⁓ And then I’m hurting others with that sort of self-righteous judgment.

Is there any, I don’t know, story of the Bible that helps with not just kind of putting Jesus on our side of the issue?

speaker-1 (10:41) Yeah, I’m trying to think of a story in the Bible. Maybe you can think of one. But I do think just the practice of prayer is super helpful in those situations. just, I mean, OK, so we think, for example, of the apostle Paul. Well, he clearly was a servant of the church. mean, he planted churches throughout the known world and wrote most of the New Testament. And yet he was often misjudged both by people.

outside of the church who accused him of being a false teacher and just doing it for money and whatever. But then also by people in the church who didn’t like what he had to say, who didn’t want to hear from him. And, you know, I always think of that super, super sad passage at the end of 2nd Timothy, which is probably Paul’s last letter that we have. You know, he’s in prison in Rome and he says, ⁓ at my first defense, no one came and stood by me, but all deserted.

So they somehow didn’t think Paul was worth showing up for, whether that was judging him or just neglecting him or whatever, but somehow they didn’t think he was worth showing up. But the thing that is striking about Paul is how often he prays for the church, he pours himself out for the church again and again. And I think that in doing that, in that attitude of, Lord, I’m asking you

⁓ for the best for these people, for spiritual flourishing for these people. I’m asking you to pour out your blessings on them. That reshapes our own heart attitude. Like what do we really want for these people who are judging us? Well, we don’t really want to get back at them or even with them. What we want is for the Lord to work in them and for them to become more Christ-like and for us to become more Christ-like. And as we pray that, then that sort of molds the shape of our hearts toward them as well.

speaker-0 (12:33) Well, I have to say sometimes I want to get back at them. What you described was the more godly response. And that’s where I’m wrong, right? When I have this contempt before people made in the image of God.

Paul, in that situation, that was your first reading, your first, do you them readings or?

speaker-1 (12:54) Yeah, meditations. Yeah.

speaker-0 (12:55) Meditations,

yep, in signing on Sunday. And I loved that, like just picturing him all alone at his defense. Nobody came for him. Nobody showed up for him. And maybe they were afraid or maybe they had other reasons. But the reality was they were not there for him. And yet, you’re right, till the very end, he persisted in faithfulness. And Jesus did too, you know, like those examples.

of Christ, Peter says that Jesus entrusted himself to the one who judges justly. And in many ways, we’re not going to be able to sort it all out, right? Among believers, we’re not going to, I feel like it’s a flawed line of thinking of like, if we could just open our Bibles together and get down and all be in agreement on what the text says, we’ll just

you know, this problem will go away. History does not support that, right? I mean, even at the Gospel Coalition, you know, you represent a lot of believers who would differ in different ways, right? And they are very solidly, ⁓ you know, grafted in and know the word very well. And so I think we’ve got to have a different mindset rather than I’m going to drill down and get to the truth of this, you know, where I feel like I am right and you are wrong.

You know, that’s probably not the best goal. But I was noticing one of the things in your book that I found super helpful was to look at, I think that you gave us four causes perhaps for this hurt. And ⁓ just maybe like having these in our minds as we face these hurtful situations, even as we’re feeling judged, give us those four, were they causes or give us those distinctions.

speaker-1 (14:47) Reasons why church is hard. Yeah. So the first one is just that we live in a fallen world. And so the effects of sin are just kind of pervasive. And so, you know, when we’re hurt in the church when, you know, things just don’t go according to plan, like.

Sometimes that’s just because it’s a fallen world and you that you have worked so hard to plan this VBS and you poured your heart and soul out of it and it rains the whole week. You know, that’s just like thorns and thistles and life in a fallen world and it’s not, you know, it hurts. It’s really sad when you try to do something and it comes to nothing. ⁓ And it’s just part of life in a fallen world and Jesus.

Well, one day, redeem that and make it all new. The second one is that Satan hates the church. I think that’s really, that of the four is probably the one that is kind of the most, you know, was most eye opening to me as I think through it. But of course it’s going to be hard in the church because Satan does not like the church. It does not want the church to do well. And so Satan is going to do everything he can to stir up.

arguments and to stir up bad feelings and to tempt us to sin because he doesn’t like the church. The third thing is that people are weak you know, people have limitations, they have weaknesses, they have experiences in their past that have made them who they are now and they’re, you know, they’re not even as strong as they would like to be and so

Often I find in the church people say something and you know, we sort of imagine immediately that’s who they really are. They’ve just shown who they really are by that statement, right? Rather than going, you know what? They had a brain fart and that thing came out of their mouth just like stuff comes out of my mouth sometimes and that’s not who I really am. It’s just because I’m a stupid person sometimes, you know? And then the fourth one is that people sin and it’s

I mean, sometimes those judgy attitudes and judgy comments do come from sin and we have sin in our hearts that comes out in certain ways and every believer has sin in their hearts and the spirit is at work and is rooting that out and is making us more like Christ, but we’re not who we will be. so that does come out and that is a reality in the church.

speaker-0 (17:06) Wow, that’s so good. Megan, I really appreciate what you said about how people are weak because I don’t want to be judged by my moment of weakness, right? And I mean, there are moments when people fail us. do, they say things, they say things that are wrong. You know, they’re flawed and they…

blow up in an elders meeting or they storm out of women’s Bible study or whatever it is, you know? People are weak. They cave into their own sin. And yet, look at the mercy of our good God. He knows all of the things that aren’t public and yet he is so merciful. I love, there’s this quote that I keep returning to from Dane Ortland’s Gentle and Lowly book, where he says that we think that

what is pent up in God is this anger and this wrath. But it’s not. What’s pent up in God, what’s ready to just gush forth at the slightest prick is His mercy. He longs to show us mercy. And He is the most gracious, the most understanding friend, the kindest. ⁓ He’s the most willing to receive us back when we’ve blown it, right? And so that understanding that people are weak.

And that our God is merciful. Like, what if that could enter into our thoughts and our feelings about these church hurt situations? You know, if we could be quick to extend mercy to that person that we feel like is so wrong. ⁓ You know, just like watching like, you know, like in the prodigal son story, the father’s just watching, watching at a distance for that product to come back.

And so like at the very moment that the hard-hearted person or the person that you’re having this contention with, like the very moment that they try, they try to show some sort of softness. They try to extend an olive branch. Like what if we could just run to them, right? I mean, I just, that is super helpful and it tenderizes my heart, you know, when I think about church hurt situations, anything you’d add to that.

speaker-1 (19:15) Also, ⁓ the story of Jesus and Nathaniel is helpful. when Jesus is calling his disciples and Nathaniel is sitting under the tree and hears about Jesus and he says, can anything come out of Nazareth, which is an ethnic slur. It’s a statement to make about Jesus. And Jesus being all-knowing, here’s him under the tree. So then here comes Nathaniel to Jesus and Jesus…

says, Well, I saw you when you were under that tree. I know what happened under that tree. what Jesus says is, here is it is right in whom there is no deceit, right? I can see you’re a guy who likes to say what you think. And I can see it just comes right out of you. You know, and Jesus doesn’t take him to task for that. He doesn’t. He also doesn’t completely ignore it. Yep. ⁓ you know, he says, I thought what happened under that tree, and I can see you’re a person who just

speaks what you think, you know, and yet he welcomes him, welcomes him into his followers, welcomes him as a disciple, you know, and I think Jesus’s example is just so great there that when we feel judged, we can acknowledge it, but we don’t have to escalate it into a great battle. We can show mercy and kindness and maybe even there’s a bit of humor in Jesus’s speech, you know, like it is, you know, and then, well, come on, let’s,

speaker-0 (20:39) I think, oh, I just love that. That he’s not like, well, you know, too bad for you. You were going to be a disciple, now you know, you, I mean, apt out even before we get started. I think both sides are true. He, he let Nathaniel know that that’s what he had seen. And yet he saw the good in Nathaniel, right? And what if we could find that kernel of good in those, those

head-to-head situations, right? Where someone has been offensive, they have made a racial slur, they have said something that is, you know, over exaggerated or just lumped us all into one. And so what if we could respond with, well, you know, I love the way that you’re forthcoming in truth. ⁓ And yet, like extend graciousness, like Jesus was so kind there. I just love that you brought that. ⁓

that story up, man, if we could be more like Christ, he’s so good. He’s so kind of, but then I also wanted to circle back to that one about how Satan hates the church. I think that one’s super helpful too. ⁓ Just knowing how he’s a deceiver, right? And he wants to not only deceive that other person over there, but he wants to deceive me too.

in this situation where I feel like I’m right and they’re wrong, or I feel like I’ve been wronged, I feel like I’ve been misjudged. I think what Satan wants to nurse in me is that either that victim mentality, right? Or that self-righteousness, that filling my head with all of the reasons I’m right, rehearsing it, going to court.

is attacking me in these moments where he is dividing me from like, I’m going back to the image of the body. Like a severed hand is not a good thing. Right. And so if I’m, if I’m severed from the body, that’s what my enemy would want for me. ⁓ So, and I’m remembering the story that you used with ⁓ Yuria and Sintiki. I don’t know if that’s how you say their names, but

how there’s two women and this is a healthy church. This is a church that’s, you recounted all the ways that Philippi was, they were doing great. And yet there were these women who were not agreeing with one another. And maybe it sounds like a petty disagreement. And yet look how the enemy uses those petty little things, things that are throwaway arguments. And yet he nurses them, he wounds and he, it’s like,

the disgust that we feel for one another when we’re in one of those little worthless arguments. ⁓ Man, it’s so helpful to just recognize that we do have an enemy, right?

speaker-1 (23:32) Yeah, and then then we can be on guard against him, right? If you don’t think that you’re in the middle of a battle, then you’re not going to be paying attention. But when you realize, nope, there is actually a battle going on here. we need to, you know, as Paul says in Ephesians, we need to keep alert with all parents application for all the saints. We need to be on guard because there is a real enemy out there.

speaker-0 (23:53) It’s so true. So if we have been hurt by Christians or in hurt, hurt, hurt situations, is there anything else you’d add? You know, maybe we’re looking through, we see, okay, this is either a broken situation. This is, we have an enemy who’s against us. There’s been a weakness or, you know, there’s even been sin. How can we respond in a way that promotes healing to that hurt?

speaker-1 (24:23) Yeah, I mean, I do think that, you know, as anytime you have a situation where two people are essentially afraid to be vulnerable and afraid to step toward the other, I think we ask for the Lord’s help, you know, to be.

the person that can take that first little step and that person who can, as you said earlier, look for good in that person. sometimes it doesn’t honestly take that much. It’s just a smile. It’s a text. It’s a, hey, I saw you do this thing and I’m so thankful. Thank you for doing the nursery today. Or thank you for, sometimes it’s just like a little acknowledgement of that person and their worth.

that can just really help transform the situation.

speaker-0 (25:11) That’s so good. I remember hearing a story about some racial tension in a neighborhood and these two groups were just at very ⁓ severe odds with one another. And one group was ostracizing the other from the community. one woman smiled at another woman. She smiled and it collapsed those feelings of contempt and hate. she thought,

Why am I being this way toward her? And I think, yeah, just a little smile, just a, you know, how can we extend an olive branch? How can we remind each other and ourselves that we are on Team Jesus? We are part of the same body. We have the same purpose and the same goals. There’s so much sideways energy that goes to this, ⁓ you know, conflict and church hurt situations. So, and

I think probably the goal of your book, we’ve talked about things that extend beyond the scope of your book, but I think your book is so helpful ⁓ for those who are experiencing this hurt to just have some meditations of truth to return to. ⁓ When you’re sighing on Sunday, when church is hard, when it hurts to go back. ⁓ So Megan, tell us where we can find your writing, your work and this book.

speaker-1 (26:40) Yeah, you can find the book anywhere that you buy your books on Amazon or Christian Book or wherever. And I do work for and write at the Gospel Coalition as well. And I’m on social media and I love to hear from people.

speaker-0 (26:52) That’s great. I just want to tag on one little thought. I love the way that you referred to stories of the Bible, because that’s really kind of our goal and our purpose here on the podcast. ⁓ know, stories just package up truth in a way that is succinct. know, stories are like 300 word little, and there’s entire shelves of books written about each of these little stories, right? They so succinctly package up truth. But as we hold on to the truth of these stories, it helps us to

remember what’s true about ourselves, about God, and how to respond rightly. So I just love how you brought us back to, and I think most of those stories we have done episodes on. So thanks for just bringing us back to the truth and helping us live like it’s true.

speaker-1 (27:35) That’s great. Well, people can read the book and then they can go look up your episodes. There you go.

speaker-0 (27:39) ⁓ That’s

so true. Thank you, Megan.

speaker-1 (27:43) Thank you, Shannon. It’s been great to talk.