speaker-0 (00:00) I’m so excited to have Glenna Marshall here with us today. Glenna has been married for over 20 years. She’s got two sons. She lives in Missouri. She’s a pastor’s wife and an author and a Bible teacher. So a couple of her books are The Promise is His Presence and Everyday Faithfulness. Glenna, we’re so excited that you’re here with us today. What’s the new book you’re working on with Moody Publishers?

speaker-1 (00:24) Thank you. I’m thrilled to be here.

Yes. So it is called Known and Loved, Experiencing the Affection of God in Psalm 139. So really it’s just a book that walks through that Psalm and it’s for people who struggle to believe that God really even likes them. And so, yeah, that comes out July 1st this year.

speaker-0 (00:46) really excited about that. That’s really cool. So and you were the one, I remember, I’m working on a book with Moody Publishers and you were the one who was like, Moody’s great.

speaker-1 (00:55) I too!

speaker-0 (00:58) So I’m excited. This is my first opportunity to write with Moody. I just got my… ⁓ I put it over there. Do you have a little mug that says Moody author at work?

speaker-1 (01:09) I have not. And I think it’s because they introduced those after, um, after I’d started writing with them. So I wrote a book with them that came out in 2023 and then this book comes out this summer, but I signed a two book contract with them. So I’m starting another manuscript that comes out next year and I’m kind of like, Hey, where’s my mug? I love them though. are fantastic to work with.

speaker-0 (01:25) I too, yeah.

⁓ that’s great. So we’re going to be talking today about a story in John chapter 9, this blind man. ⁓ And we’ve already had part one of the conversation earlier. But so let me just kind of recap a little bit. There’s this man who’s born blind and Jesus and his disciples come across him. Jesus spits in the dirt, makes mud, puts it on the guy’s eyes, tells him go wash, he comes back and he can see. It’s amazing.

everything is wonderful except for the fact that this happens on the Sabbath. And so the rest of the story kind of is dealing with that tension that Jesus would do this thing on the Sabbath. I’m just wondering, Glenna, do you have any experience in churches that have like a lot of rules about things?

speaker-1 (02:20) I really do. I really do. So I grew up in ⁓ a small Baptist church in the South. I grew up in Tennessee. So there’s a lot of just tradition that goes with that and maybe not biblical tradition. And so ⁓ I grew up very much in a church culture that celebrated the gospel, but there was a bent towards performing to earn God’s love. Or maybe I should say

you adhere to a certain set of rules that are maybe not, you can’t find those in the scripture. But if you do, if you dress like this, if you educate your kids like this, if you hold to these tenants, then you’re probably a more upper echelon kind of Christian, which is so anti-gospel. But you I couldn’t see that growing up. And we stayed in a church like that for…

probably till I was in junior high and then my parents were just like, this is so damaging and removed us from that church. And I had to, I would say it took 20 years for me to unlearn some of that theology, you know, just ⁓ that you cannot earn what God has given for free and that you also cannot dangle this set of rules over people who are maybe new to the faith and

expect them to adhere to a new law, so to speak, in order to be where you are as a Christian. There’s just an elitism there that is just so antithetical to the gospel.

speaker-0 (03:48) That’s so true. I have this memory. I grew up in a really conservative church too. And I have this memory of sitting in a car with a bunch of teenagers. And we were outraged, like just abhorred the fact that there was a boy from our youth group who had asked a girl from our school on a date. That wasn’t the problem. The problem was he asked her to see a movie.

speaker-1 (04:17) ⁓ gasp.

speaker-0 (04:19) Now, if you didn’t grow up in a tradition like mine, you probably are like, okay, and? But no, for us, it was like, he was blowing our whole testimony. Now, nevermind that this other girl just went to a different denomination. She was a believer. But we had told her, she was our friend. And we had told her like, no, we may not see movies in the theater. And we were just outraged. I would love to just have a recording of that conversation and just laugh at myself now.

speaker-1 (04:46) I I look back and I did things like that too because of that church culture I was raised in and I just look back and I’m like, ⁓ Glenna, what a little Pharisee.

speaker-0 (04:56) I

know. Well, and that’s the story we’re interacting with the actual Pharisees. Like we’ve turned it into like a metaphor, but they actually were Pharisees. And what they did was they took the laws of God and they were so committed. My pastor always says, you would have liked them. They were the good guys. You would have thought highly of them. So they were so passionate about God’s ways and His laws. So they would take one of the laws.

and then they would stack up their own rules on top of it. So I was trying to think of like a parallel. It would be like, we all agree that pornography is wrong. And so, you we know that that would be sinful. And so in order to avoid pornography, we’re going to stack up rules like you may not have a smartphone, you may not have a TV, you may not go to the mall because you could, you know, see pornographic material in the storefronts, right? And so

if someone then were to break one of our rules, like you have a phone, well, then you must be consuming pornographic material. That’s the equivalent of what is happening here in this story. Because the rule is that they must keep the Sabbath. But they have stacked up so many laws on top of keeping the Sabbath. It started with a heart of wanting to obey God, but then they’ve made their

extra rules and they’re judging people based on those rules, right? As if they know. And okay, the problem is they’re judging Jesus. And that is probably

speaker-1 (06:31) That’s dangerous.

speaker-0 (06:33) So, mean, you know, is Jesus, Glenna, what do you think? Is Jesus keeping the Sabbath here? What is it? What’s going on here? When he makes mud, is he? What’s going on?

speaker-1 (06:43) Jesus is doing is showing us that God made the Sabbath for man and not man for the Sabbath. I think he’s illustrating the value of what he’s doing for this man is so beautiful and so life-changing that it supersedes these man-made conventions that the Pharisees had added to God’s law. I don’t think Jesus is breaking God’s law at all. I think he’s breaking the Pharisees, either their interpretation of the law or what they have added to it.

He, you know, they are doing what he has said in other texts. They are straining a gnat and swallowing a camel here. I mean, they are missing the forest for the trees. He is changing a man’s life and bringing glory to the Father in doing this. you know, all they can see is the, is the supposed rule breaking. And I just, mean, there’s a part of me that thinks, how dare they treat Jesus and this blind man like this. But on the other hand, I see that

that judgy nature in myself as someone who grew up in the church. I mean, I’m a Bible teacher. I’m a pastor’s wife. I mean, I live my life, hopefully steeped in the scriptures. And it is very easy for me then to think I know, you know, my law is above the Lord’s law.

speaker-0 (07:57) I agree. Yeah. it’s like, what I want to focus on in this chapter of my book that I’m writing is like, that judgy tendency we have among believers. I mean, I don’t, we can’t make the case that these Pharisees are believers because they’re the ones who are going to crucify Jesus. But we are among people. I mean, I think the question is like, we’re with people who say they’re following God, and yet acting in a really ungodly way.

⁓ and they’re responding to the gospel. It’s like turning it back into a self-salvation story and that’s just not okay. that’s enough. The gospel is offensive. It’s saying like, we can’t save ourselves and we want to. And so that’s kind of what we’re going to just come up against in this story. So would you please read then? just going to, I mean, this is the whole chapter of John 9, so we don’t have time to look at all of it.

But if you would read from verse 24 through 34, and what translation?

speaker-1 (09:02) I’m reading from the ESV. Yeah. So for the second time, they called the man who had been blind and said to him, give glory to God. We know that this man is a sinner. He answered, whether he is a sinner, I do not know. One thing I do know that though I was blind, now I see. And they said to him, what did he do to you? How did he open your eyes? He answered them, I have told you already and you would not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you also want to become his disciples?

And they reviled him saying, you are his disciple, but we are disciples of Moses. We know that God has spoken to Moses, but as for this man, we do not know where he comes from. The man answered, why, this is an amazing thing. You do not know where he comes from and yet he opened my eyes. We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him. Never since the world began has it been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a man born blind. If this man were not from God, he could do nothing. They answered him.

you were born in utter sin and would you teach us?” And they cast him out.

speaker-0 (10:05) That part, would you teach us? I do too. There’s just all this disgust behind that, you know? The story opened with the disciples asking Jesus, like, it His sin, you know, that caused His blindness? And here they’re just going ahead to confirm that question. Yes, they were born in utter sin. So, you know, on this podcast, Glenna, we’re always looking at the stories of the Bible. Like these are narratives.

speaker-1 (10:09) highlighted and underlined. too.

speaker-0 (10:35) There is not just a chronology of what happened when Jesus was here. John is telling us these stories. He’s telling them as stories. So what makes this a story? What’s surprising here? Like what makes this stand out?

speaker-1 (10:49) Yeah. So I think that what’s surprising and really just kind of rubs up against our pride in this story is the fact that you have a man who is blind. He’s a beggar. And because he was at the temple, this is what they did with people. I’m sure you talked about this before. This is where people went who were ill and could not support themselves. And what just strikes me is he is healed by the Son of God. And all these Pharisees can focus on is

this guy cannot be from God. And for you to think that he is, you don’t even know what you’re talking about. But prior to their inquisition, they’re not even sure who this guy is. And I just think you had to have walked by this man every single day of his life. And you’re like bringing people in to verify that he was the blind man. So first of all, I think it tells us something about the Pharisees and the way that they overlook.

the ill and the sick. And then you have Jesus who seeks this man out. It’s his idea. He says to the disciples, watch this, essentially. ⁓ so this man is completely overlooked by the Pharisees. And then just an inquisition and interrogation, they are not concerned that his life has been changed. They’re just concerned that he has been in communication with this Jesus. And he ⁓ answers, I think maybe what blows me away about this passage is how just

true and certain and almost eloquent his answers are to the Pharisees. And he’s not an educated man, but he knows what he has seen. And he does know the law. knows that ⁓ to be able to do what Jesus did, you have to be from God. And so he has just surmised, therefore Jesus is from God. That’s all I can tell you. And that’s, you know, it’s not a satisfactory answer to them because they feel really agitated by his direct response.

It’s hard to argue with his response. And so what they do then is they just cast, him out of the temple. They remove him. And I, I think that’s so telling they didn’t like his answer. And so they just put it away with him. So they don’t have to deal with that anymore. I, it just goes all over me.

speaker-0 (12:59) Yeah, they’ve predetermined. They’re not really looking for, they’re not coming with an open heart and open minds. These Pharisees have predetermined, I think a little bit earlier in the text, they’re questioning his parents and his parents are careful about what they say because they’ve already determined that anyone who claims that Jesus is the Messiah is going to be cast out of the synagogue, which, I mean, that’s a big deal.

speaker-1 (13:22) How would you atone for your sins if you can’t come to temple?

speaker-0 (13:25) But it’s not just religious, it’s like their whole community is built around this synagogue. so, like they wouldn’t be able to, I think I’ve read they wouldn’t be able to do, like commerce wouldn’t be an option. And so what are you supposed to do? And I think also this man, I’m going to have to research this more, but I think since he was blind, he wasn’t really allowed into the synagogue. ⁓

But he does seem to have this remarkable understanding of the truth that the Pharisees are blind to. think that’s kind of the juxtaposition here is this guy, gets that Jesus is the Messiah and he’s willing to say it. He’s not deterred. I kind of see a little snark in him. you?

speaker-1 (14:06) It’s almost like when he’s like I have already answered this question. Why are you asking me again? And then he’s just like do you want to buy?

speaker-0 (14:13) Do

you wanna? Yeah, like is that what you’re asking me?

speaker-1 (14:16) They just can’t handle it, but he knows they don’t want to follow Jesus. I think you can get that from the text. He’s just, he’s kind of giving it back to them a little.

speaker-0 (14:24) I think

part of the surprise of the story is his confidence. mean, here is a blind beggar, right? His entire life and everybody, I mean, if the disciples are asking this question about what is his sin, it his parents’ everybody’s been judging him in this way. He is the person, like you said, like nobody, he’s invisible. Nobody sees him. Nobody, you know, they can’t even, they’re like, is this the man? don’t know, know, the neighbors are having this conversation and then they bring him in. And I think really one of the reasons that they want to interrogate him.

is they really want it to be a case of mistaken identity. this isn’t the blind man. This isn’t really a miracle we’re dealing with. And then when the parents say, well, no, this is our son and yeah, he can see, but you’re gonna ask him, they bring him in a second time. That’s the passage that we’re looking at. And they feed him the answer. They’re questioning him, but it’s not actually a question because they start out saying, give glory to God. We know that this man is a sinner. ⁓

Okay. So where’s the question? The judge would throw that out of court. That’s not actually a question. You’re leading the witness. That is the textbook definition of leading the witness. I think maybe too, they’re saying, give glory to God for your eyes being opened. And I wonder, Glenna, if that’s

speaker-1 (15:24) question.

speaker-0 (15:46) That’s the world we live in today. Like everybody’s okay with us saying, God be the glory, you know, talking about our faith. But the thing that is offensive is Jesus. You know, like in this world that we live in, saying, like Jesus is the offense because Jesus is not this, you know, this God that we can’t see this far away God. No, Jesus comes and he gets in our business. He’s like,

they can see him. He is God in the flesh and he is telling these Pharisees who’ve been kind of managing God’s people, he’s like, yeah, ⁓ and you’re wrong. Like, you’re the one who is wrong here. And they don’t like that. They’re losing power. ⁓ so, I just think this is interesting. He’s the God who comes near and he’s the God who judges you. ⁓ Yeah, any thoughts on that?

speaker-1 (16:43) Yeah.

So it’s interesting. So I’ve been in the gospel of John since October. I have a group of ladies that meet in my house every Tuesday and we just go chapter or half chapter, you know, section by section. And we won’t finish up, I think, until the end of the summer. But one of the themes of the gospel of John, and this is really what makes John different from the synoptic gospels, John, he is taking every opportunity to make it known that Jesus is divine.

and that it is through him that you get to the father. If you want to see the father, you go through the son. And to see the son is to see the father. And Jesus says it, I don’t know how many times I should probably go through and count, but I and the father are one over and over. And so like you were saying, people are okay with God, you know, and I’m using air quotes, but it is when you get to the specifics of Jesus, because there’s an exclusivity there that people don’t like. And they didn’t like it here either.

And, with the Pharisees, if you keep going in the Gospel of John, ⁓ after this chapter, it becomes apparent that the Pharisees, you said it, they’re afraid of losing power, not just their influence over the Jews, but they’re afraid of upsetting the order of power under Rome, because they’re sort of given freedom to rule the Jews under Rome. But if Jesus comes in and people start

revering him and maybe they want to make him king, then it supplants the Pharisees and ⁓ Rome’s not going to allow another king. And so it’s going to upset, basically it’s going to come down to power and money. And so, which is, I mean, really telling.

speaker-0 (18:24) Yeah, it’s paramani. But can you, can you unpack that a little more? Like, why would the, why would the Pharisees want to be under Rome? I don’t understand.

speaker-1 (18:33) I think they were given some freedom to govern as they saw fit. And so they could use God’s law, Old Testament law, law of Moses, which is referred to here, and they could add to it. And then, you know, as long as they’re paying taxes to Rome, and we know from the story of Zacchaeus and of Levi that the taxes were just extortion. mean, it was terrible. But as long as that was being done, then they could do as they liked.

And so they could hold, the Pharisees could hold this position of authority over the people. then they could, know, Rome doesn’t care about their Jewish law. We see that with the crucifixion of Jesus. so, but so as long as the power balance is not upset, they can keep doing what they’re doing. But if you bring in someone else who looks like a political threat, which is really what the people wanted, that’s not what Jesus came to do, but that’s what they were looking for.

But if you bring that in, it’s going to upset the power balance under Rome. so think keeping that in mind with the Pharisees, it wasn’t just about religion, it was also about power.

speaker-0 (19:43) Do you see any parallels in our world? ⁓

speaker-1 (19:48) Yeah. I mean, I think just throughout church history, you can see times in history where the church has controlled the state and not because they were interested in the souls of the people. And so I think ⁓ even in our day today, if we are using what we believe about Jesus in some way to control power, we have lost the plot because

Following Jesus is taking up your cross, denying yourself. It is not manipulating people to do what you want them to do. And so that’s, yeah.

speaker-0 (20:26) Well, think even within the church, like maybe not in such exaggerated ways, but in simple ways, when we’re like, demanding that people adhere to our rules, and we want that power, I don’t know, you know, this part of the story where, I mean, the blind man is saying things that are true.

He’s saying, this is amazing. What’s amazing is that you don’t see it because I can see, I’ve only been able to see for, don’t know. And this is all happening within the course of a day. It’s the same day that he’s healed. He’s now, everybody’s questioning who is this guy? They drag him in and wait, this happened today on the Sabbath, right? And he’s teaching them. Here’s this humble man who’s now before the…

most powerful people in his community. And he’s telling them what the Bible says, right? That’s what he’s amazed at is how is it that they don’t see it because he knows that Psalm 145.19 says, God hears those who fear and who do His will. He fulfills the desires of those who fear Him and He hears their cry for help. Like he’s rehearsing, that’s what’s true in his mind. And also the prophecy that

When the Messiah comes, Isaiah 19, 18 says, on that day, the deaf will hear the words of a document and out of a deep darkness, the eyes of the blind will see. So this is the sign that Messiah is here. I am a blind man. I’ve been blind my entire life and I can see, and you’re not immediately coming to the conclusion that the Messiah is here. This is amazing.

speaker-1 (22:08) Yeah. think he says, you know, all I know is I was blind, but now I see. And I think he’s speaking physically, but you can see the process as you read the text, his spiritual eyes are opened and he is seeing that this Jesus is someone else. And so when you get to, you know, near the end of the passage and Jesus says to, you Jesus seeks him out after the man’s been thrown out of the temple.

⁓ He says, you have seen him and it is ⁓ he who is speaking to you. And the man says, Lord, I believe. And he worshiped him. just, when the man realizes all in that moment, okay, the man who healed me is the Messiah. His response is just worship. mean, everything’s clicking into place.

for him. And like you’re saying, what a day for him. He starts off blind, then he’s healed, then he’s almost punished for being healed and interrogated for being healed. And then he is welcomed by the one who healed him. And I think ⁓ he has gotten it. And these men who are so steeped in the scriptures have totally been.

speaker-0 (23:13) Yeah, there’s this progression in the way that he even sees Jesus. Like the man is becoming more and more confident because at first he refers to him as the man, and then he refers to him as it was the prophet, you know, who did this. And then he refers to him as the one who is from God. And now in the final, which is the part that we haven’t read yet, he sees that Jesus is the son of man, which is like, that’s an indication. This is the Messiah. So the man sees this so clearly.

And the Pharisees don’t. And the part that, I mean, just seems so like the world that we live in is where they turn to Him and they say, you were born in utter sin and you would teach us, you would teach us. Like, there’s just this disgust in their tone. And, you we can’t communicate disgust without also saying something about ourselves in the process. You know, you are this utter sinner. And so by implication, they’re saying we are not.

you know, that you would teach us, you’re this sinful person. They could have learned a lot from this blind man, right? If they had listened, they could have. This experience was amazing. The man was amazed and they were just so predetermined that their way, you know, that they were the ones in charge here. So this reminds me of something that I went through where I was a new Bible teacher, Glenna, and I know, you know, you were

speaker-1 (24:16) if they had listened.

speaker-0 (24:40) ⁓ early on a Bible teacher too. So mean, I’m this young woman. I had no training. I just had a deep love for the Bible. And so at my church, you know, I began teaching the Bible. And I remember that we were following the preaching schedule and ⁓ in Bible study. And so I had been assigned a passage, but it was like, it was basically just a verse and I was like struggling. don’t know. I don’t know what I’m supposed to do here. I don’t know how to…

And then I said, could I take this passage that we’re going to be skipping next week, because it was going to be spring break or Christmas break or something. And could I teach on that instead? And I was told no. And so then I was like, well, could I kind of combine them? Could I teach both at the same time? And I was amazed because God had given me this. I was given permission. And then I was amazed at how God had given me this lesson that was kind of combining. I felt like I was honoring my authority.

And ⁓ I was so excited to teach this message. And in Bible study that day, ⁓ the woman, the director showed up and she was sitting in the back row. And I thought to her, ⁓ Lord, I’m so glad she’s here because she’s going to get to hear how God gave me this thing. I’m honoring her. Well, about halfway through or maybe even sooner through my message, her arms were folded.

she looked angry and frustrated. And I’m like thinking, what? don’t understand. Like, what have I done here? So afterward I said to her, like, is there a problem? Like, I don’t, and she’s like, you totally disregarded my instruction. And I was like, but I didn’t. mean, I, you know, and she just thought differently. And now, I mean, like I’m saying, Glenna, I was like very young.

very new to teaching the Bible and I probably would agree with her going back. I don’t know. I don’t have any like recording of that or whatever, but likely I would see it her way now. And now I am a coach of Bible teachers. And so I have learned a lot more than I knew then. I mean, was like she kind of stormed off and wouldn’t talk to me. And then I was asked to meet with a pastor and I remember going and her.

I remember going to that meeting feeling like, Lord, I feel like before you, I don’t really see my sin. ⁓ But I felt this disgust from my leadership. You know what I’m saying? And I think there’s a lot of that in our church. By the way, that meeting, it was fine. There was reconciliation. It was great. But for a lot of people, there isn’t. There’s this deep church hurt over judging each other.

because you’re not following my rules. You’re not doing the way I told you. And I agree, we should respect our authority. I’m not saying like, you know, just renegade Bible teachers. That’s okay. But I think, man, there should be a way that, I don’t know, some sort of a teach abilities or willingness to like, look at the heart. Like, was I openly defiant? I can say for

for sure that I wasn’t, because I was excited that she was there. how about you? Have you ever come across any of this?

speaker-1 (28:02) I have. So it’s interesting because sort of on the reverse side of things, I’ve been married to my pastor for 22 years. Married to your pastor. Yeah, married to your pastor. It’s something else. So I’ve been on the side of like our church went through our first 10 to 12 years in ministry. We came into a rural ministry and we were outsiders and it just didn’t go well and we were not well received. We were young. My husband was 27 when he became the senior pastor. was

24 pastors. Wow. Yeah, that’s very very young. And when I think about that now, I’m almost 44. I’m like, ⁓ wow, who would hire people that young? But my husband’s a fantastic preacher. And so he’s very gifted and people enjoyed his teaching to a point until it made them uncomfortable with their sin, quite honestly. But we just went round and round with all kinds of church conflict for the first decade plus.

When we came out of that time, I was also going through just some personal suffering. I had developed some kind of chronic pain disease. We could not figure out what it is. I was in so much pain for years and years, and we had dealt with infertility and we had adopted a child and just a lot of compounded trials kind of overlapping. And it was really out of that suffering that the Lord drew me into a love for scripture. And then I just wanted to share it. And I wanted to

lead a book study or a Bible study, and I could not get anyone to come. And there was a disdain for me ⁓ trying to teach other women in the church because the thought was, what could you have to teach us? You’re younger or you don’t know anything, or you haven’t experienced what we’ve experienced. ⁓

you know, that was crushing. What I have learned is to never, ever belittle someone just because you think they don’t know as much as you do. And so one thing that’s really helped is having a Bible study where there are new believers and they may not have all the biblical knowledge that I have accumulated and absorbed over the years, but they love Jesus and they are so excited.

speaker-0 (30:16) Yes.

speaker-1 (30:19) to get to know him in scripture. And I’m like, you what? You win. You share and I’m going to let you. And if there’s error, we’ll gently correct it. ⁓ But the Holy Spirit lives in you just like he lives in me. And who am I to say that you cannot teach me something? And so in God’s kindness, he has taught me to look for the ways that the Holy Spirit is at work.

in younger believers. don’t mean age-wise, I mean stage-wise. ⁓ Their growth in Christ, if they’re behind me, it does not mean I cannot learn from them. That elitist view has no place in the

speaker-0 (30:56) No place. Well, that’s the story. mean, the actual truth is that the blind man was right. He was the one who understood and who saw Jesus clearly and these Pharisees did not. They were blind. Jesus is going to make that point later in the text. so this unlikely person is the one with the truth. Sometimes I think, man, when

When those of us who have been around the church the longest and feel the most comfortable there and feel like we’ve earned our place in the front row or whatever it is, you know, we’re the Bible study leader. Sometimes we are the ones who have the wrong attitudes. We’ve lost sight of who Jesus is because He was gentle and lowly. He was meek.

you know, he’s the one who’s lifting up the blind man. And if there was someone that he confronted, it was this religiosity and this superiority and the condescending disgust for like these learned ones who would say, you would teach us. And I really I hope, Glenna, that you and I will never lose that desire to be taught. ⁓ I remember sitting out on the balcony with my daughter recently, we went on vacation and

We’re sitting on this balcony overlooking the ocean. It was a beautiful place. And we were reading the Bible together. I said, hey, what do you think about this? I’ve been kind of wrestling through this text. And she had different thoughts. And we this really great conversation. And I said, Lindsay, I hope we will always get to talk about the Lord this way. I hope I’ll never become a grouchy old lady who says, you would teach me.

It’s just not, yeah, it’s contrary to the gospel. The gospel is we are the receivers, we are the recipients, we are not the powerful ones, we are not the ones that the learned teachers, the elevated condescending ones. That’s just, that’s antithetical to the gospel. What false narratives does this story correct?

speaker-1 (33:07) Absolutely.

You know, I think that, and we’ve said this, but that within the faith, there are, you know, tears of importance. Yes. that you, you know, maybe you come to faith and you’re trying to reach the level that your Bible study teacher is at or your pastor is at. But really, I mean, what you’ve just said is it, I mean, we are the receivers and none of us start at a higher position. I mean, we’re just, we’re all growing and we’re going to grow.

from this day until the day we see Jesus face to face. And ⁓ we all are gonna fight sin from this day until the day we see Jesus face to face. And so there’s no kind of tier that we’re trying to reach that makes us a better Christian or a more faithful Christian. Now, I think that the longer you walk with Jesus, you grow in faithfulness and…

and your love for Him deepens and there will be sins that you’re able to leave behind with time. It’s not that that I’m talking about. That growth is right. What I’m talking about is that a pastor or a Bible teacher is more favored in God’s eyes than the person who attends. That doesn’t exist because we all come to be reconciled to the Father through the Son. That’s it.

You know, it is, we bring nothing and he does everything. And so, you know, that false narrative, I think that we bring something to the table that causes us to receive, we should be esteemed more. I mean, you see that corrected in Paul’s letter to the Galatians, ⁓ you know, kind of the disagreements between the Judaizers who had come down to this Gentile church and said, basically, if you really want to be Christians, ⁓ you’re going to have to be Jewish. Right.

speaker-0 (34:58) Right.

speaker-1 (34:59) And Paul’s like, are you trying to continue in the flesh what was begun in the spirit? This is a work of God, a work of the Holy Spirit. Your salvation is a miracle, so is your sanctification. So we cannot take credit for what we have learned and how we have grown. I mean, that’s just not true. It is all grace all the way down.

speaker-0 (35:18) It’s so true. I like to picture it like a Thanksgiving meal where there’s people of all different ages and stages around the table. And maybe the five-year-old is tasting the cranberry sauce for the first time, but the 90-year-old is like, yeah, isn’t it good? And you’re enjoying it together. And there isn’t like, I eat it better than you, right? We’re all just enjoying. And this is the word of God.

We’re just a family gathered around a table and all of us are to enjoy it. And maybe it takes a little bit like the younger one doesn’t appreciate the certain recipes, but they will as they taste it more and more. so, like gone is the hierarchy. We’re all just the recipients. We all just come to the table as we are. And ⁓ I love this story of this blind man because he…

is the one Jesus lifts up. He’s the one that Jesus reveals himself to further on in the text. He’s like, I’m the son of man. So we had the woman at the well and now this blind man, two of the least likely candidates to have this private little intimate revealing from Jesus and that’s who he is. He lifts up the little person. I love that.

See if you can finish this sentence for me. Today, let’s live like it’s true that what

speaker-1 (36:44) comes to mind that God gives grace to the lowly. Let’s live like it’s true that God gives grace to the lowly. that is where, and Jesus is clear on this. If you want to be exalted, you stay humble. it is God, as Peter tells us, it is God is the one who raises us up. And so like this blind man, know who you are before God and don’t exalt yourself to a higher position. I think he knew who he was. And I think his blindness

made him very aware of how destitute he was and how much he needed someone to step in. And I think that’s where the Pharisees just couldn’t see. They couldn’t see their blindness. And so, you know, God gives grace to the humble and the lowly and that’s where we need to be.

speaker-0 (37:28) Amen. Thank you so much for joining us, Glenna. It was a joy to have you.

speaker-1 (37:32) I enjoyed it so much.