Shannon Popkin (00:02) Sandra Curry, welcome to Live Like It’s True.

Sandra Currie (00:05) my gosh, thank you for having me, Shannon. I’m so excited.

Shannon Popkin (00:09) I am too. So let’s just tell our listeners how we first met. ⁓ So I think I spoke at an event that you were at. Is that right?

Sandra Currie (00:19) Yes, it was at a three-day women’s retreat at Spring Hill. And that’s where I first met you and got to know you. my gosh. Hands down, yes. Yes, yeah, so that’s where I got to hear you speak for the first time.

Shannon Popkin (00:28) One of the best camps ever, right? Yeah, such a great.

Yeah, and then I think we connected afterward and you were on one of my book launches. So that was comparison girl, right?

Sandra Currie (00:43) why is?

Shannon Popkin (00:54) ⁓ that’s so that’s so fun. That that book is ⁓ dear to my heart, you know, and like you’re a Zumba instructor. And so, like, I’m sure anything related to fitness and you know, comparison is a thing, isn’t it?

Sandra Currie (01:03) Yes. Yes.

Absolutely, absolutely. We as women are so good at that, aren’t we? Comparing in any and all situations.

Shannon Popkin (01:16) Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah,

especially when you’re like looking in a mirror, which you do at Zumba. Exactly. So, ⁓ but as so you were part of the launch team. And then that was right when the world shut down with COVID. And I decided to do these online groups to you know, because I’m like, well, nobody’s doing Bible study at church right now. Maybe we’ll just serve our women.

Sandra Currie (01:22) I can bear the big mirror. Yes.

Yes. ⁓

Shannon Popkin (01:44) do some online groups and

So we put together these online groups and you were in one of those groups, right?

And I remember getting an email from you at some point during that study. ⁓ Just a desperate cry for prayer. And so this is when your world was just kind of coming unhinged, not just because of COVID. But tell us what was going on in your life at that point.

Sandra Currie (02:12) goodness, okay. So it was sort of a two-part betrayal reveal, which looking back on it, that was all God because in March of 2020, a week before the world shut down, I found out that my husband, we call it the just a kiss moment. And so I found out that he kissed another woman

Shannon Popkin (02:38) did you find that out?

Sandra Currie (02:40) So I’m not one to look at his text messages. I’m really not, but he had had a procedure that morning and I was so suspicious for a while and something just told me to look and he didn’t have his phone. I had access to his phone and so he was sleeping. So I looked and just the words that they had conversed that morning told me things, didn’t tell me everything, right? But it just.

gave me a big clue. And then when I kicked him out and he came back and we had a conversation, he was like, it was just a kiss. I promise it was just a kiss. And so I had no other choice but to believe him. I wanted to believe him. And so the world shut down a week later. And so we shifted from dealing with that to dealing with homeschooling our children. We have four boys to ⁓ wiping down our groceries with.

and with wipes and just masks and navigating this whole thing that and him working from home and me teaching Zumba on Zoom, which that was fun. ⁓ just every, yeah, everything shifted, right? So our focus shifted from this crisis to the world crisis, but it was always in the forefront of my mind, right? And we couldn’t really get counseling. We couldn’t really get help. was, everything was.

We just didn’t have the tools that we needed, right? And so now fast forward to July, four months later, and I had that.

Shannon Popkin (04:17) Actually, can

I interject there for a second?

Sandra Currie (04:20) Absolutely.

Shannon Popkin (04:21) So let’s go back to that just a kiss conversation. You looked at his phone, which maybe he felt like was a betrayal of his privacy. I’ve often heard that like you shouldn’t have been looking there, but prompted by I think probably the spirit, you know, because our God does not want us to keep things hidden from one another or from him. And especially in marriage, marriage, we are called one

flesh. There is no separation. There is no division. And I’m not going to say that, you know, my husband and I have no privacy from one another. We’re like that couple. We don’t like to be in the bathroom with each other when we’re using the bathroom. I know some couples are like we are separate times in our lives. ⁓ But we have full access to each other’s bank accounts, to each other’s ⁓

Sandra Currie (05:01) You ⁓

Shannon Popkin (05:16) phones, you know, like to each other’s ⁓ emails. There’s never anywhere that we have set private where we’re interacting with other people and not and our spouse is not invited into those spaces. And so

⁓ to pick up his phone and read a, read a message that I’m sure felt like the trail. Can you share like what exactly it said that gave you a clue that this wasn’t?

Sandra Currie (05:47) So because I did have access to his phone, so he was very good at deleting all of their text messages and their conversation. However, him having that procedure that morning and them conversing back and forth because she knew

that he was having this done. And she had said, I love you. And he had said, I love you back. And so that’s when people that are just friends don’t say that and they worked together. And so that’s when I thought, okay, well, you’re not just friends. That’s not a conversation that and, and

I just remember he really didn’t, and normally he would attack me and say, hey, why’d you look at my phone? And I’m not really sure if he did, I’m gonna be honest, I really don’t remember if he did or not because that did not become, he knew he was more in the wrong than I was, I suppose, at the time. He probably did bring it up, but I don’t think it mattered because he was outed and he knew he was outed, but he was trying to be not outed more than what.

the real truth was. So.

Shannon Popkin (07:07) And you know what, that whole scenario right there just so reminds me of the Judas story. Because Judas betrayed with a kiss. And the kiss was so much more than just a kiss, right? I mean, he was such duplicitousness in that moment, such hypocrisy.

in Matthew 26. Jesus said, friend, why have you come? After he kisses him, friend, why have you come? Still a friend to Judas. He did. Yes, he did. Unlike us, Jesus had…

Sandra Currie (07:40) And he already, he knew, he knew already what was going to transpire, so still considered him a friend.

Shannon Popkin (07:51) supernatural understanding. he kept telling everybody my time has come my hour is not here. And he told the disciples multiple times, I’m going to be crucified. It’s going to be the chief priests, it’s going to be the council. And he also told them at the Passover meal just before

this that one of them was going to betray him. And it was so interesting, like, they must have so trusted Judas, because nobody said, is it him? They all said, is it me? Is it me?

Sandra Currie (08:25) Well, I

Shannon Popkin (08:26) throughout the whole time. mean, Judas was someone. He had such a gift, he had full access to Jesus. He had full access to the truth for three years. He heard it over and over I mean, those 12 men had more opportunity to understand the world and the kingdom of God and truth versus darkness. mean.

Sandra Currie (08:34) ⁓ I’m I’m fine.

Yes. ⁓

Shannon Popkin (08:50) He heard all the sermons. He saw all the miracles. He’s I mean, I don’t know if all but he he saw more than anybody like these disciples. They had a front row seat to Jesus. And yet he chose money like money was the thing. He made that his God. And I was just thinking today about how

Sandra Currie (08:55) Yeah.

Yep.

Yep.

Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (09:15) in our we’ve had this recent sermon series at church about idols and how the ancients understood

they saw that money was not just money. Sex was not just sex. Power was not just power. That’s what our pastor keeps saying in the series. these hungers in our life. They’re such open opportunities for the enemy. And what the enemy does is deceives us with these idols. And in another sermon, one of our one of our pastors said,

Sandra Currie (09:42) So.

Shannon Popkin (09:46) idols will always make you hurt you. Idols will isn’t it? Idols will make you hurt you. And that’s what happened with Judas. mean, this idolatry of money, just like days before Mary had poured out all this expensive

Sandra Currie (09:49) Ooh, that’s good. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (10:06) perfume on Jesus’s head. She had anointed Jesus ⁓ and she kind of like mimicked the earlier prostitute woman who wiped him his was very, very unusual to let her hair down. But it was like this. am I am giving you everything like a bride would to her husband. And she just poured it all out at Jesus’s feet is this beautiful. mean, she wanted it to be this beautiful moment of worship to exalt Jesus. And Judas looked at that and said, this money.

Sandra Currie (10:06) funeral.

Shannon Popkin (10:36) could have been used differently. And so he was all about like elevating the money over the worship of Jesus. And so this was his pattern throughout money had him. He never could have enough money, but money had him completely. And Judas his idol made him hurt himself. Ultimately, the way that this played out is Judas committed suicide.

Sandra Currie (10:43) Yeah.

Yep. Yeah.

Yes,

yeah.

Shannon Popkin (11:03) that’s what idols do. They betray, they betray us, they tell us that they’re gonna be satisfying and they never are. And that’s what happened with your husband too.

He was in the middle of a scam of the enemy. Now he participated, right? But this was him choosing an idolatry. He was not worshiping God with his marriage, with his life, with his desires. This had this power over him and he succumbed. He gave into it.

Sandra Currie (11:39) Yep.

Shannon Popkin (11:40) And and it hurt you just like this betrayal of Judas it hurt Jesus So tell me like I know that you said you kind of like had to numb out and go do all cove it things But in that moment of I’m sure there was shock were there any others like I don’t know what were the questions going through your head

Sandra Currie (12:04) all of the questions. being so confused, wanting to believe him, but then really discerning, do I believe him? And that is a huge mind game because there is, this is the man I’ve been married to for 18 years together for over 20 and four children and not wanting a divorce, wanting so badly to believe him.

but yet still struggling with is this the truth? And that was really hard.

Shannon Popkin (12:35) Yeah.

I know that when we talk about, you know, this is we’re in the judgy series right now. And when we talk about judging other people, there’s a question of am I judging them or am I exercising good judgment ⁓ and good judgment? We should not dismiss good judgment for the sake of not judging, you know? ⁓

Sandra Currie (13:01) Yes, that’s

a good line.

Shannon Popkin (13:02) We should

not just, yeah, we should not just set aside all the, you know, the wisdom that like looking at a text that says I love you and hearing my husband say it was just a kiss. I think a good judgment says maybe not, right? ⁓ On the other hand, here’s what I know about judgy girls. We sometimes assume that we know things that we don’t know.

we read into things we feel like we have the gavel in our hand we feel like we have we have gathered all of the evidence all of the testimony and it is our rightful place to pound our gavel and convict send a verdict condemn and ultimately like

you know, send this final verdict. Like you are worthless. You are nothing. You are despicable in my eyes. And I don’t get the sense that you were there yet with this text message. I think you want it. Sounds like you wanted to believe. But how did you exercise good judgment in that scenario

just for those who are listening and weighing, like, what is good judgment? How did you exercise good judgment? Or do you think you didn’t?

Sandra Currie (14:18) Well, I wonder how I would answer that question if COVID hadn’t have happened. And I know that may sound like a cop out, I think I didn’t have the opportunity to think straight. My vision kind of went from this situation to COVID and

Also, when the world shut down, it’s not like I could, we could separate because there was no place to go. So I don’t want to say that I stayed or settled, but I think because of the, happened on a Friday, he came back home on Sunday night. We had a conversation and yes, he went to his mom’s house. And again, COVID hadn’t happened yet. So he went to his mom’s house and

Shannon Popkin (15:07) So he left for a couple of days.

Sandra Currie (15:16) ⁓ There were some conversations that I had with his mom and she said if I don’t take him back, he might leave altogether. And I mean, I don’t think she was wrong, but I also think that that was a little bit of a mind game for me as well.

Shannon Popkin (15:38) That’s questionable judgment. We don’t we don’t do things because of potential outcomes. We do things because they’re right. You know, we hold on to truth. We hold on to justice. And so and I understand her. She’s probably speaking out of fear. And I mean, if she’s listening right now, my goodness, my heart goes out to you to imagine one of my kids betraying their spouse is just It’s like the worst.

Sandra Currie (15:40) Yes.

Shannon Popkin (16:05) possible scenario and so I have absolutely no judgments in that scenario. I think when in those moments when I am so fearful, so concerned of what might happen, I sometimes stray from good judgment too and that’s why we need good people in our lives, good objective people who can say yeah but let’s think about this. Let’s think about this more carefully.

Sandra Currie (16:22) Mm-hmm.

at that point, I didn’t want to lose my husband. I didn’t want to lose…

everything that we had had built and desperation okay I’m gonna believe you

Shannon Popkin (16:46) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So was there anyone else that you confided in during this time?

Sandra Currie (16:53) Yes, so actually I was doing your book. I was in that group and there was a couple girls that actually stayed on after one of the Zoom calls and I just, I said, oh my gosh, you guys, I don’t, this is what happened. And I probably,

confided more in them than I did with my husband because I was unraveling.

But he has anxiety, so he was also unraveling when it came to COVID. However, I did not realize at the time until after that ⁓ she was also still in the picture, even though he said she wasn’t. he, yeah, so he was trying to, cause she knew I didn’t know the whole truth.

and then was holding things over his head and was threatening to tell me, was threatening all of these things. And so here I thought he was struggling with all the anxiety when it came to COVID. So me and my codependency, it was, I’m going to make sure I protect my husband’s anxiety because of COVID. Well, I did not know all of these other things that were going on until later. So.

Shannon Popkin (18:29) Okay, well, let’s let’s first go back to that conversation on the zoom call, because I just really want to hear how that I think that’s a helpful thing for people to hear that you. Yeah, you couldn’t open your heart fully to your husband, you weren’t sure this huge breach of trust had happened. And so to use him as your confidant wouldn’t have, you know, you didn’t know how much he was withholding. And so

to open your heart to a couple of women, Christian women who know Jesus, that’s important. That is good. That is right. We are never meant to follow Jesus alone, especially when we’ve been betrayed. mean, look at Jesus the night that he was betrayed. He didn’t just go off by himself. He brought his disciples with him to the Garden of Gethsemane. I mean, if God himself needs friends around him during a really hard time, like what kind of a message does that send to

us. We are not to have this sense of self sufficiency and autonomy. The Lord demonstrated he revealed the pattern for when we’re going through hard times and I mean so sadly they fell asleep on him.

Sandra Currie (19:27) somebody.

Shannon Popkin (19:43) They didn’t keep watch with him. didn’t bear with him in this burden that he was carrying, but he showed us what it looks like to do it the right way. You too, Sandra. Like you demonstrated bearing your soul with these women.

Sandra Currie (20:00) when it first happened, I don’t really think I talked to too many people. I do think there were people that knew. And there was one girlfriend. So now we’re going to fast forward just a little bit because I kind of already did. there was one girlfriend I had talked to a little bit. And this was a couple of days before I found out about

the full affair. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I was talking to her and we were having a conversation and this again, this was a couple days before I found out although but what she said to me was,

Shannon Popkin (20:22) Betrayal part two, let’s say betrayal part one. So there’s the kiss part and then there’s the betrayal part two. okay.

Sandra Currie (20:40) and sometimes we need to hear this from very entrusted friends, she said, Sandra, people that are just friends, especially male, female, do not say I love you to each other. And I had pretended in my head that, well, I believed the lies, right? That, but hearing that from her,

just, it was like this light bulb moment. But again, I don’t think I was ready to hear the whole truth

it was still really stirring in my heart that what is the truth, what is the truth? And so…

Shannon Popkin (21:17) Well, and what that friend said to you, that was good judgment. That was clear-headed good judgment.

Sandra Currie (21:20) It’s not.

And she was so brave to tell me that, to just be like, listen, Sandra, you

are lying to yourself.

Shannon Popkin (21:31) And don’t we need more of that in this world? I think we are so afraid to judge that we set aside good judgment, even on behalf of our friends that we love. mean, I’ve talked to so many people who are afraid to tell someone like, I don’t think you should get this divorce. I don’t think you should change your gender. I don’t think you should have this affair. I don’t think you should, you know, fill in the blank. They’re so

Sandra Currie (21:41) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (22:01) afraid to share good judgment with a friend because they don’t want to be judgmental. so this is like we…

Sandra Currie (22:06) Yeah. Or lose a friendship out of it. ⁓

Shannon Popkin (22:10) And you can, you can. I just talked to someone recently who is losing a friend because she’s saying, nope, this divorce is not a God honoring divorce. There’s no cause, there’s nothing, there’s no grounds for divorce basically. And her friend is like, well, I want it. And so, you know, there’s another person in the picture. And so, I mean, I think.

Sandra Currie (22:21) Hmm.

Shannon Popkin (22:35) just ask yourself like, am I holding up good judgment?

Your friend was good and right.

if somebody is listening and you have not shared something similar, a betrayal, a breach in your marriage, please, please reach out to a godly friend, someone you can trust, a woman in your church. And if you’re not in a church, you need to get in church. If you’re not in a Bible study, you need to join one like Sandra did. You know, she had a group, she had something in place so that when her world fell apart, she had someone to talk to.

Sandra Currie (22:43) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (23:06) But OK, so here we are. We’re in July. You’ve just had this conversation with your friend who says, Sandra, people don’t say that. And then what did you do?

Sandra Currie (23:17) We were actually on our way to go camping and so now I’m going just, okay, now what do I do? Because now I’m gonna spend the weekend and so we did, we went camping and I remember James even asking me, what’s wrong? What’s wrong? And nothing, nothing, I’m fine, I’m fine. And he was super kind that weekend and

sort of, he was, he was holding my hand, he was, and we got home. And so I knew I had to have this conversation. And I had had this top of the stairs moment and

I’m standing at the top of the stairs, he’s at the bottom of the stairs, we’re arguing about something, and all I heard was Grand Rapids. And so it was in my head. It was the Lord speaking to me, Grand Rapids, and I knew exactly what it meant. And so in January,

Shannon Popkin (24:11) not from him.

Sandra Currie (24:25) her, this, and again, I knew of this woman. He talked about her. And so her dad had passed away in January and he had to go to his funeral and be with her and all these things and I have to be the supportive co-worker and blah blah blah. And the following weekend he left to go to Grand Rapids, which he never goes on any little trips by himself and…

He’s like, no, I’m gonna go spend the time with my friend because he was in town from out of state. And can I just go spend time with my guy friend? And I was like, absolutely. Like, who am I to say no, right?

And so I knew that he went to Grand Rapids the week after her father’s funeral, they went together. And of course, all of the things, I feel so stupid. How could I not have been?

you know, we’ve been challenging that more than what I did, even though I kind of had my suspicions, but I’m a very trusting and loyal person. So I just knew, I just knew.

Shannon Popkin (25:37) I just I think there’s something important about what you just said. You felt that betrayal and then immediately felt shame. And I just I just want to I want to superimpose that on Jesus. When we think about Jesus and Judas.

Sandra Currie (25:48) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (26:01) Do we ever picture Jesus like he should be ashamed of himself in that moment?

that his friend betrayed him. Had Jesus done anything to deserve that?

I think that’s just helpful for us to look at that picture because sometimes it is so easy to fall prey to the enemy when we have been betrayed, when someone else has diminished our value and our worth in such a significant way. It’s like, it’s almost,

Sandra Currie (26:35) And we take ownership of that.

Shannon Popkin (26:37) Yes, it’s almost immediate. Let me just tell you a story about something that happened to me. I have not been betrayed in this way, Sandra. I have a husband who’s been super loyal to me for 30 years.

But there was this experience where we went to this hotel and this was a weird hotel. I can’t even describe it. Like we found it on Priceline or something. there were clusters of hotel rooms. Like think of like little, like four hotel rooms to a little building and then there were these little paths you could go. And you know, it was real fancy, you know, it like for a romantic weekend. Well, my husband was having

we were having issues with our car. So he went in the next morning to take our car to a shop and ⁓ there was a knock on the door and I looked through the little people and there’s a man wearing a red jacket and to me that just kind of symboled like, he must be like from this place, you know, like a, don’t know what I was thinking.

Sandra Currie (27:30) ⁓ yeah.

on staff. Yo!

Shannon Popkin (27:35) Yeah, like a butler. I it looks like a butler

to me. Like, he’s wearing a red jacket. So anyway, I just opened the door and just said, can I help you? And he said, are you affordable? And I froze in that moment. I was like, and then immediately I said, no, I am not. And I slammed the door on his face.

Sandra Currie (27:47) I hope.

Shannon Popkin (28:02) And so, I mean, he was propositioning me and I don’t know if that’s what that hotel was for. I did report it to Priceline, like, this is not maybe what you think it is. But in that moment afterward, I felt this shame. I felt shame and I thought, I don’t want to tell my husband this. I don’t want to tell anyone this. And then I thought, like,

Sandra Currie (28:06) ⁓ boy.

Yeah. Yeah. yeah. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (28:27) That is ridiculous. I did not knock on his door. I did not go after him. He came after me. Like he propositioned me. Shame is the most illogical response. And yet I felt it. I felt it. And so…

Sandra Currie (28:34) Yeah.

Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (28:47) I just want to call that out. Shame is the enemy’s tactic. Whether or not we’ve committed sin, you had not committed any sin and your enemies still wanted to use shame. You felt foolish. You felt dumb. felt like you had been naive. You felt like you’d been played.

Sandra Currie (28:57) Yeah. I did. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (29:13) I mean, we just have to take those thoughts and put them and then impose them on Jesus. Should Jesus have felt foolish? Should he have felt naive? Should he have felt played? mean, he knows people’s minds, you know, and he did not. He knew this was the enemy. And so that’s, think, let’s just keep those things straight. Okay, And I just, want you to hold on to that the next time shame comes knocking on your door. Nope. That’s not a logical. Yep.

Sandra Currie (29:24) Yeah.

Yeah, it’s a very good message. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (29:41) let’s use logic and good judgment in those moments. But, ⁓ okay.

Sandra Currie (29:43) And pause and say,

this the Lord or is this the enemy? And I think if you can actually write your mind and take a second and ask yourself those questions, you’ll get an answer.

Shannon Popkin (29:56) You know what? And that’s so good because Jesus does not shame us. He doesn’t. Shame is always from the enemy. So all right. So you had this message about Grand Rapids. And then what did you do?

Sandra Currie (29:58) Yeah. Yeah.

Yep, yep. So we

get back from camping and I said, we have to talk and I can chuckle at this now. ⁓ However, in the moment it was, listen, this is just what I did. he was sitting down on the bed and I was standing up and I said, tell me what really happened. And he said, well, what do you mean?

tell me what really happened between you and, I’m not gonna say her name, but between you and her.

And he said, it was just a kiss. And I said, tell me what really happened. And he said, well, we did have sex. And he said, but how did you find out who told you? And I said, you just did.

The way the conversation flowed, he outed himself… But he didn’t have any way to…

to turn it around, But I truly believe, and we have had this conversation that it was time. He was so anxious about it and he was so grateful that it came out, right, at the time because he couldn’t handle the blackmail anymore. He couldn’t handle how I was handling things. mean, just everything, all the anxiety that was swirling.

He was so grateful for it to finally come out because he had no idea how I was going to handle it. Kind of quote unquote thinking that I already knew. Didn’t have to come out and just straight out tell. How is he supposed to find that moment to say, excuse me, Sandra? Right. He had no idea how to find that moment. So that moment was sort of found for him. And so at that moment, I told him he needed to leave.

I didn’t even want to talk to him. I couldn’t look him in the eye. I couldn’t even anything. So he had packed a bag. He actually sat the kids down and said, I’ve made a big mistake.

The older two were kind of old enough to kind of understand, but he had said, you know, dad has made a big mistake. I’m going to go stay at Grammy’s for a little while. I’m not really sure. I’ve really hurt your mom. Didn’t, didn’t get into specifics, but they were all crying. I’m crying. It was, it was a, it was a hot mess. And he then leaves

And so I just thought, I don’t even know what to do right now. And so they all kind of dispersed.

into their bedrooms and I dispersed into my bedroom and he left and here I was. Here I was in this what do I do now? And what an awful, it was an awful feeling. Awful feeling. So yeah.

Shannon Popkin (33:07) I’m so sorry.

Well, let’s let’s take these things separately. Your relationship with James, let’s talk about that first. You said you couldn’t you couldn’t look him in the eye. What was behind that?

Sandra Currie (33:19) I

could not look him in the eye.

for.

a very long time, a very long time. ⁓

I don’t know. I don’t know. I just think.

I didn’t want him, ⁓ gosh, there’s probably so many things behind that. I didn’t want him to see my pain. I didn’t want to see, I didn’t know if I was gonna see lies anymore. I didn’t know if I was going to, I just didn’t want to give him that piece of me, but then at the same time, I could not look at him. I was so angry, I was so angry. And it took a long time.

Shannon Popkin (34:10) Yeah, well did he feel that? he, has he talked about like he noticed you wouldn’t look him in the eye?

Sandra Currie (34:15) Yes, so

he would like, we had, had more of our conversations after this were not rooted in anger, but they were rooted in empathy and I’m sorry. I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I’m sorry. So he would sort of grab my chin and be like, you’re not looking at me. Can you look at me? Begging me to look at him. And he would, he would just gently kind of try to redirect my face to look at him. He knew it. And he asked me many times.

Can you look at me?

Shannon Popkin (34:48) my heart is just breaking for you, Sandra, because I mean, part of that is still the shame, right? That lingering shame of you betrayed me, you hurt me so deeply, and I can’t trust you. ⁓ You know, there’s something about making eye contact that it there’s some open openness there. There is a welcoming of you, you know, looking into one another’s eyes. You know, that’s

When humans are intimate, they face each other usually, right? ⁓ Animals don’t, like we, there is an intimacy in marriage. ⁓ so that has been broken, that trust has been broken. But I wonder if there’s also an element of…

judgment and condemnation. I mean, there’s righteous indignation. Like he has been wrong, but when he’s expressing empathy and was there any part of you that just wanted to hold out and like, no, I’m not having that you, you, you crossed a line and I have no place for you here. Was there any of that?

Sandra Currie (36:00) Absolutely,

Because I had trusted him once and you lied to me and I don’t want you to touch me. I don’t want you to look at me and before this I had no idea even what codependent meant. And so then when I started to recover and heal I dived in and learned that I was very codependent.

So was always trying to protect him, always trying to be like, okay, so we’ve had this argument, we’ve had this thing, I’m wrong, but let’s just sweep it under, and we both did, we were both very good about sweeping things under the rug. But in my wanting to protect him or not wanting to deal with something, that’s what I did. I was not doing it this time.

I was not going to sort of fall into this place of like, okay, let’s just move on now. And it just wasn’t, it was just gonna happen. And this was too big. And I felt so small in this big thing that happened and absolutely not knowing what to do next. it, yeah, it was hard to make any decisions, but.

But yeah.

Shannon Popkin (37:28) Okay, well, I hate to leave our listeners hanging, but we’re gonna have to close with that and pick it up next time because we do want to hear the rest of your story. There is a redemptive part of the story, yes? And I want to hear that and so…

Sandra Currie (37:36) Okay.

There is. There is.

Shannon Popkin (37:46) We’re gonna leave you hanging there because that’s a lot of stories have these in the middle parts where we’re just left hanging and we don’t know what God will do. ⁓ But if that’s you right now listener, if you are in the middle of a betrayal, if you can’t look someone in the eye. ⁓

Sandra Currie (37:50) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (38:07) to Jesus, look to him, look to his example, and don’t look to him saying like, I think there’s two ways we can look to Jesus, we be like, you need to get him, you know, or, you know, that’s how the disciples were like, do you want us to call down heaven, call down fire, you know, let’s smoke these, smoke these guys, like, do want us to do that? Like, there’s that way to turn to Jesus. And then there’s also the way where we’re like,

Sandra Currie (38:44) add a little bit to that. think there was part of me in that moment where, you know, I’ve always had a relationship with the Lord, but I felt somewhat guilty with these huge 911 SOS prayers. And it was this moment of I’m falling at the hands and feet of Jesus yet. I feel like I wasn’t that close to you in the last couple months. And so then I was dealing with some of that guilt.

And what I would say to your listeners is if you’re feeling like I shouldn’t be, why haven’t I been praying lately and now I’m just crying out to you in this moment? I would say to you, forget all of the guilt, forget feeling guilty for crying out to the Lord. That is why he’s there. He wants to hear those prayers, whether they’re 911 or SOS or desperation prayers, and you haven’t prayed in months, years, weeks, whatever it is.

Pray, pray, pray, and pray. It doesn’t matter because he hears you and do not feel guilty about it.

Shannon Popkin (39:49) that’s such a good word. Jesus will never turn us away. His arms are always open to us picture his arms open on that cross. That’s how much he loves you. And I heard let me just close with the story. I heard this story of a doctor. This is in gentle and lowly by Dane Orland, a doctor went

brought all these supplies to a foreign country. He’s a medical doctor and there was some disease that they were facing and he had the solution. brought all the supplies, he set up shop, but nobody trusted him. And nobody came for the treatment that he had to offer.

Sandra Currie (40:20) huh.

Shannon Popkin (40:26) Now, how is that doctor going to feel when somebody finally shows up, somebody finally takes a risk and finally says, I do want to be healed? mean, he would that’s why he came. And that’s why Jesus came. He did not come from for the healthy. He came for the sick. came for.

the people who are right in your position right now. So do not delay, go to him, run to him, his arms are open to you. So let’s pick it up next time, Sandra.

Sandra Currie (40:51) Okay.

There’s a spoiler alert, yes we are still married.