Shannon Popkin (00:05) All right. Rachel Wojo is back with us here for part two of the conversation we started last time. We’re talking about her book, Desperate Prayers, Embracing the Power of Prayer in Life’s Darkest Moments. Rachel is an author, a speaker and a podcaster. And she talks about these these desperate.

times in our life as a wife and a mom. She’s gone through some dark days. She lost her daughter who had tell me how to say it again, Rachel. Well, that there you go. That’s what I needed. I it’s like my goodness. Okay. She lost her daughter who had a rare metabolic disorder and has walked through. Yeah, some dark.

Rachel Wojo (00:42) Muco-polysaccharidosis. It’s what you just say, a rare metabolic disorder. It’s okay, we’re fine.

Shannon Popkin (00:58) So Rachel, welcome back to Live Like It’s True. We’re so glad that you could come back for part two.

Rachel Wojo (01:03) Well, thank you so much for having me. You and I, think, would just sit down at coffee and never get up.

Shannon Popkin (01:09) I agree, I agree. It’s been great. In fact, you know, we were like halfway through the last conversation. I’m like, okay, we need a part two because I don’t want to get this short. I want everybody to be able to listen through the whole conversation. And so this is just us serving them. But you know, last time we started talking about this woman, Hannah, who is married. You know, we talked about she’s married to a man who has two wives. She’s the favorite wife.

She’s the one who he loves. He says he loves her more. He gives her double portions of food when they’re sacrificing at Shiloh. But the other wife is the one who’s having all the babies. And so we talked last time about how this is just so provocative in Hannah’s life. Anything else you would add to that story before I have you read these verses?

Rachel Wojo (02:01) No, I think you have nutshelled it so well and just putting ourselves in her place of how we would feel if it were us. think that through this passage, we will really get a glimpse of that.

Shannon Popkin (02:14) that desperation that we feel when like we talked about last time when life is out of our control. All right.

Rachel Wojo (02:20) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (02:21) so, Rachel, would you read verses nine through 18? In which translation will you use?

Rachel Wojo (02:31) I have the NIV.

Once when they had finished eating and drinking in Shiloh, Hannah stood up. Now Eli, the priest, was sitting on his chair by the doorpost of the Lord’s house. In her deep anguish, Hannah prayed to the Lord, weeping bitterly. And she made a vow, saying, Lord Almighty, if you will only look on your servant’s misery and remember me and not forget your servant, but give her a son.

then I will give him to the Lord for all the days of his life and no razor will ever be used on his head.” And as she kept on praying to the Lord, Eli observed her mouth. Hannah was praying in her heart and her lips were moving, but her voice was not heard. Eli thought she was drunk and said to her, how long are you going to stay drunk? Put away your wine. Not so my Lord, Hannah replied, I am a woman.

who is deeply troubled. I have not been drinking wine or beer.

I was pouring out my soul to the Lord. Do not take your servant for a wicked woman. I have been praying here out of my great anguish and grief. Eli answered, go in peace and may the God of Israel grant you what you have asked him. She said, may your servant find favor in your eyes. Then she went her way and ate something and her face was no longer downcast.

Shannon Popkin (04:14) Okay, so what goes the opposite direction of what we might expect in this story? What’s surprising, or yeah, what makes it a good story?

Rachel Wojo (04:25) think first of all that she, in this section, she does go to the Lord, she does pour out to Him as we’ve already talked about, but then in the middle of her pouring out, she is judged. And I think so many of us have a fear that our prayers are going to be judged, either by God or someone else. I have so many people who come to me

and say, I don’t know how to pray, or I can’t pray, I don’t have the right words, or I want to make sure that my prayer is just right. And so they’re trying to perfect their prayer before they even get to God. And so don’t you think God already knows we don’t have the right words and that we’re a hot mess? I mean, one day, a couple of weeks ago, I was like, Lord, I’m such a hot mess.

And he’s like, girl, you’re catching on. You know, I mean, we have to drop that prayer perfectionism. And I think Hannah does that so beautifully. But then the next step, the surprise, she is judged. She’s judged for that. The priest is watching her and she’s saying, I mean, if it were me, I think I would have been like, dude, back off, you know, go your own way. This is my problem. I’m having a conversation with God here.

Shannon Popkin (05:24) You

you

Rachel Wojo (05:52) mind your own business. But she didn’t do any of that because her heart was in such a grace-filled space and she honored him and she said, no, you’ve got the wrong idea. I’m not drunk. I’m actually praying and this is what the situation is. And because she was kind and grace-filled and responded well, then he blessed her and he said, my bad.

May the Lord bless you. then I think one of the other surprises is after this whole encounter, what happens? She mops up her face and she goes to eat. And the Bible tells us that before she went to prayer, she had trouble eating. She was so distraught that she was having eating issues, maybe even a disorder of some sort. And I think that can happen when we don’t have our

priorities to go to God in prayer and we don’t sit with Him in the prayer, then we can just really get anxiety filled and ridden with these issues. But pleasantly, she did not retaliate when she was judged. And then that resulted in the blessing and she was able to move forward. She was able to eat. And I love the part that says her face was no longer downcast.

Shannon Popkin (07:18) I do too, yeah.

Rachel Wojo (07:19) because

it means even though she hadn’t had a change in her circumstances, she had a change in her heart. I just think that provides so much inspiration from us, for us today, don’t you?

Shannon Popkin (07:27) Yeah… Yeah I-

It does. And you you talked earlier about how prayers forge this powerful path. You said something like that. And part of that power is not, I mean, I think we all want the prayer to change the circumstances or the outcome. But part of the power is inside of us. Right. And that’s that’s what happens here. Hannah goes into the temple, a completely distraught woman. I mean, she is burdened with so many things.

Rachel Wojo (07:46) Mm-hmm.

Right.

Shannon Popkin (08:01) And then it gets worse, like you said, you know, she’s even more misjudged and mistreated. know, earlier it was Panina misjudging her circumstances as if like she’s done something wrong, right? And bringing God into the situation of her not having children. And then her husband misjudges. And it’s like, why, why? And it’s even provocative. And now the priest.

Like I think you’re right, Rach. I think many times we don’t go to God because we’re afraid we’ll get it wrong. And yet here is a desperate woman. I’m sure she didn’t have her theology exactly straight, right? She’s just desperate, but she does the right thing with that desperation. And she goes directly to God and something powerful happens even in the, in the situation of being misjudged and my goodness, grieving people. You know, I mean, I think when you’re going through grief,

you’re more sensitive, you know, like when I remember going through a grieving period and my, my husband said something about, gosh, look at this kitchen. ⁓ you know, it’s just, it’s a mess in here. And I just burst into tears because I’m like, are you saying I’m a bad housekeeper on top of everything else? You know? And he’s like, no, I was just like, I was just saying like, gosh, I, know, I’ll help.

And on an average day, I wouldn’t burst into tears over something like that. But it’s just like when you’re grieving, your emotions are just like a centimeter or a millimeter below the surface. And you can feel like you’re misjudged by everybody, even those who are trying to help or trying to understand or trying to invest. I mean, you know, if it’s not as though Eli the priest was

Rachel Wojo (09:38) I

Shannon Popkin (09:53) wrong. You know, if there was a woman who was drunk in the temple, he should have reprimanded and corrected. as an advocate for godliness, like that would have been appropriate. And yet he was reading it all wrong. And man, just do you think that in grieving situations, other people often do read things wrong? It’s like it’s like a combination of we’re overly sensitive, but also we are misjudged, right?

Rachel Wojo (10:19) Yeah,

well, and I think, I mean, this is making me think of church hurt situations, because really, that’s what this was. In a way, we would describe a modern day church hurt where the priest made a mistake in his judgment and it resulted in a reprimand. And so she was reprimanded, you know, unlawfully or unjustly. And she had the opportunity to choose what

Shannon Popkin (10:28) Yes, it was.

Rachel Wojo (10:47) kind of response she wanted. And I think that can teach us so much when we’re in grief to not retaliate with the same judgment with which we have been judged, but to offer, you know, a soft answer turns away wrath. And so to be able to offer that, it’s challenging though. It’s challenging when you’re hurting to respond well.

Shannon Popkin (11:01) Yeah.

Yeah, that’s such a good point. I had not connected this to church hurt, but you’re exactly right. She’s not just judged. She’s misjudged. And yet she doesn’t storm out of the temple, right? She stays.

Rachel Wojo (11:23) Right.

or throw up her hands

and say she’s never coming back or that he doesn’t have any respect for this pastor anymore and can’t put herself under his ministry. Just the opposite. She takes her son after he’s born and weaned back to this same priest who had misjudged her because she saw what God was doing.

Shannon Popkin (11:31) Right.

Man, yeah.

Rachel Wojo (11:55) and she didn’t get sidetracked by the humanness in the moments.

Shannon Popkin (12:01) Yeah, yeah, yeah, that I, you know, lifting her eyes to the Lord. And, this is again a desperate prayer where she’s not even, it’s not even out loud. it’s this prayer in her heart. It’s ripping her to shreds the situation. yet, and you know what I noticed to Rachel about her prayer is she doesn’t talk about the situation. And that’s not to say that she wouldn’t or, you know, that’s just not the part that’s recorded. But

we always have to pay attention in narratives to the part that the narrator quotes, like the words that he puts into the person’s mouth. It’s not a chronicling. It’s not an every word recorded situation, but he doesn’t record anything about the situation, about Paninna, about Elkanah, even about, you know, she doesn’t even name. She knows that God knows her affliction.

But look at how the Lord is mentioned. Lord of hosts, if you indeed look upon the affliction of your servant and remember me and not forget your servant, but will give to your servant a son, then I will give to the Lord, give him to the Lord all the days of his life and no razor shall touch his head. So it’s like this prayer of dedication to the Lord. She wants for God to move on her behalf, but not

in vengeance, not in retaliation,

You know, I’m just thinking back to the situation with your daughter. As you walked through those, you know, probably almost two decades of little by little giving up control of her life from the time she was three until she was, 22. So 19 years of little by little surrendering control to God.

How did those desperate prayers being anchored in God, how did that shape you? How did that, you you alluded like there were changes that were happening in you. It had this powerful effect on your life. What did you notice? What changes happened over time?

Rachel Wojo (14:14) Well, I think I can’t really name a specific time of year or number of years, but in that journey, after a few years of that desperate prayer, those prayers that were just lined with needing God to work, it fueled a dependence on God to the point to where I recognized the value of that.

And honestly, Shannon, I worried Taylor kept me tethered to Jesus. And I worried that when she went to heaven, I would forget how much I needed the Lord. And I would fly back to my old ways of wanting to be in control and wanting to always know what I was doing and when and trying to be independent. And that desperation, all of those desperate.

prayers fueled me into this dependence on God that I don’t want to ever lose. That is the way He created us to be dependent on Him. And when we have that God-sized hole filled in our hearts with His Spirit and we’re relying on Him and communicating with Him in that way, that is when we’re the most fulfilled.

That is when we can experience all of the peace and the joy and the fruits of the spirit that he longs for us to have. So my prayer through all of those desperate prayers became so strong. My communication with the Lord became so strong. I still worried that after Taylor was gone, I thought when I don’t have that prominent pressure or that continual every day,

problem to deal with, issues to deal with, disease and death to deal with when I don’t have those anymore, I will forget what I need to be doing which is relying on God. And I can tell you that there are some moments where in my humanity I do the same thing that we all do and forget to rely on God, forget to ask Him, forget to pray, forget to ask for His guidance.

But for the majority of the time, I honestly wake up in the morning and say, okay, Lord, I’m yours. I’m surrendering to you. Remember me today. Let my life fulfill the plan that you have for me. I want it to be for your glory. And just that has been such an ingrained part of my journey for so many years that I’m grateful. He’s used other circumstances to

Shannon Popkin (16:57) Hmm. Sure.

Rachel Wojo (17:00) you know, bring me back. He’s used other messages and words, but I think the majority of what he’s done in my life is allowed prayer to be that powerful pathway to peace that we all want. And so I want to thank you for allowing me to share Hannah’s story in such a cool

Shannon Popkin (17:17) Yes

Rachel Wojo (17:22) way.

Shannon Popkin (17:22) That’s so cool. And you know, as you were talking, the part that doesn’t make sense to me in this story from a human perspective is that she would before this baby is even given to her, and we know that the baby is given to her. That’s the end of the story. She becomes pregnant. But why would she surrender this baby to the Lord back to the Lord even?

You know, it’s just humanly speaking that makes no sense to me. Right. And at such a young age, he’s a toddler and she drops him off to live with at this temple. But I wonder if she.

Maybe it wasn’t premeditated. Maybe it was. We don’t know. You know, I’m speculating here and I think we always have to be careful when we’re speculating on the text. But here she is. She’s in this temple and she is crying out to the Lord. She’s she’s pouring her heart out before the Lord and maybe she’s already thinking. And if I get this baby, what am I going to do with this baby? You know, am I going to bring this baby back and say, ha ha?

See there, you know, am I going to finally be able to eat? Am I going to finally have all the satisfaction that I’m hoping for? Am I going to finally have control? Right? Or am I going to choose that even if God gives, you know, because there’s an if then situation in her prayer, if you indeed give me a son, then I will give him to you.

Rachel Wojo (18:40) Thanks

Shannon Popkin (18:56) So there is a premeditated decision of even if I get what I want, you’re still going to be in control. And that’s what I hear in you recalling, you know, the years leading up to your daughter’s death. It was you saying like, even if I lose her, I don’t want to lose the sense of God, you have in control over my life that because that is, I mean, it’s so hard.

for us, I think people who are going through grief actually have a better view of this. They see it with more clarity that when God is the one who’s in control, that’s when we get the peace. That’s when we get security. That’s when we have all the things that we’re hoping for. It’s not when we are the ones who are in control. When we’re the ones who, you know, what sort of desperate moms do we become when we have to control everything in our kids’ lives?

Rachel Wojo (19:53) us.

Shannon Popkin (19:53) you know,

when we have to make them safe, when we have to make it all turn out right, when we have to get them into the right college or date the right person. I mean, you were in a situation where daily you were reminded how little control you had over your daughter. And that was a gift, you know, a strange sort of a gift, but a perspective giving gift to you. And it powerfully changed you.

Rachel Wojo (20:16) Yeah, well we’re trusting God for eternal salvation, but so many of us don’t want to trust him for everyday solutions. Like we are trusting him for a home in heaven, but we can’t trust him with our home on earth. And so I think that’s a big part of just learning that trust journey as you pray and he fortifies that trust. And then also just remembering God does want to answer our prayers. I mean, in this book, I

Shannon Popkin (20:25) So true.

Rachel Wojo (20:46) share answer after answer. Our family stories of how God answers prayers, but he really wants to do so much more than just answer our prayers. He wants to be the answer to our prayers and that is the difference.

Shannon Popkin (20:48) Yes.

That is so good. Say that one more time.

Rachel Wojo (21:05) God wants to do so much more than answer our prayers. He wants to be the answer to our prayers.

Shannon Popkin (21:12) So like if he just answered our prayers and gave us what we wanted, then it would turn into a formula, right? It would be like, okay, I know what to do. I go to the church and I cry and I pray and I ask God and then he gives me what I want. And then away we go. But in this sense, you know, often it has to do with the timeline. Here Hannah is dealing with a year after year after year and it doesn’t change. Or you’re dealing with a…

a medical situation or a financial crisis or a relationship and there’s this extension of time and it doesn’t change. And yet God is the solution. He is the answer. He’s the one. I say it one more time. I can’t quite remember it. He doesn’t want to.

Rachel Wojo (22:00) He doesn’t not only does he want to give us the answer to our prayers, but he wants to give us so much more than the answers to our prayers. He wants to be the answer to our prayers. He wants to give us himself.

Shannon Popkin (22:03) Mm.

There you go.

He wants to give us himself. That’s really, and if we read the story backward, heaven is all about God giving us himself. It’s God coming to dwell with man. That’s the new earth will be us living with God, you know, eternally dwelling with him. And, you know, John Piper asked this question, would you be okay with heaven if Jesus wasn’t there?

You know, if you can have all the gifts of heaven, you know, live eternally, no more pain, no more tears, all of your loved ones, you know, gathered together, but Jesus wasn’t there. You know, it’s a provocative question, isn’t it? And I think.

Rachel Wojo (22:54) What’s

the sacrifice, the meaning of sacrifice and what that does to our lives, how it moves and changes us?

Shannon Popkin (23:04) Right. But really what God wants to give us is himself. And so like, yeah, all of these desperate prayers, they’re leading us back to God himself. And so like I look at this story and I’m like, Hannah, Hannah, like, why God, why didn’t you give her a baby? Like, why all this weight? And yet look how the Lord was leading her to himself. So man, there are so many ways we can live like this story is true, but give us just one or two there, Rachel.

Rachel Wojo (23:34) Well, I think one of the ways is just looking at not just today, but the big picture. And I think Hannah really gives us an example of that. how can we live like going to God in prayer is the best result. It is the best resource. And so to put it in practical terms, I think it’s just

making those everyday choices to turn to Him to communicate with Him when we’re presented with the difficulties and remembering to take all of those things to Him. And then maybe the second piece of living like it’s true is we look at how she was misjudged, how Hannah was misjudged. We’ve talked about that in depth and choosing our responses to misjudgment and being purposeful about that.

We can always, you know, we’ve heard it over and over again. say it to our kids. We can’t always control what people say, but we can control how we respond to it. And I think Hannah’s beautiful prayers, her beautiful attitude in the misjudgment phase, they both point us towards just surrendering to God and allowing him to be in control and then just allowing ourselves.

to recognize that these moments that we live on this planet are just that. They’re just for this planet. And when we can set our eyes on eternity, it gives us so much deeper perspective.

Shannon Popkin (25:16) Amen. Thank you so much for sharing your story with us, for talking about this story in the Bible with us. Where can people find desperate prayers?

Rachel Wojo (25:26) Well, thank you for asking. can go to desperateprayers.com. That really is the very best place to go to look into the book itself. Or I have an incredible class there. I’m offering how to be a prayer warrior for your family in dark times. And it’s just packed full of tools and resources for anyone who’s struggling and says, I loved this podcast episode, but I need some more. It’s there for you.

Shannon Popkin (25:55) That’s so great. Thanks so much, Rachel.