Judgy people distance themselves and look down on others. But the surprise in the Bible is what actually makes someone righteous. In this episode of Live Like It’s True, Felicity Carswell and I talk about the Pharisee and the Tax Collector from Luke 18 and share some of our own stories of being confronted with self-reliance.

The truth is, none of us are righteous. We all need mercy. And when we receive it—when we go home justified, we’re also free of judging ourselves against other people.

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Key Takeaways

• Judging others often reflects our own shortcomings.
• Self-reliance is offensive to God.
• Our assumption is that what we do and don’t do is what makes us justified.
• Justification, however, is a merciful gift. 
• Our body language often reveals our heart. 
• The tax collector’s cry for mercy exemplifies true repentance.
• Our awareness of sin increases as we grow in faith.
• Community and vulnerability are essential in our faith journey.
• When we know we need mercy and how to get it, we’re free to let others in on our messiness. 
• God’s mercies are new every morning, reminding us of our continual need for grace.

The Judgy Series

In this series on the Live Like It’s True podcast, we have two types of episodes. Some follow our more typical format, where I’m talking with a fellow Bible teacher about a story from the Bible on judgment and mercy. In others, I’ll be interviewing someone who has felt judged or been tempted to judge others. I’m praying that each episode in the series will inspire you to live like it’s true that we are daughters of the Merciful Judge.

Shannon Popkin (00:00)
I’m

Felicity Carswell, thank you so much for returning to Live Like It’s True.

Felicity Carswell (00:08)
My pleasure, thank you for having me back.

Shannon Popkin (00:10)
I had you here with your sister last time and that was such a great conversation. Let me just tell our listeners about you if they haven’t heard that one or haven’t met you. You live in the Chicagoland area, and husband and two children. How old are the kids now?

Felicity Carswell (00:26)
They are nine and seven boys. So we got a lot of energy going on in the house.

Shannon Popkin (00:28)
nine and seven, two boys. I love it. I love that.

And so you love teaching the Bible to women in your local church. And okay, your biscuit of choice is chocolate hobnob.

Felicity Carswell (00:43)
I know, isn’t that a funny

name? Whenever I hear someone saying it who’s never said it before, I think, yeah, that’s an odd-siding food item.

Shannon Popkin (00:51)
Well, and a biscuit, is that a cookie?

Felicity Carswell (00:53)
Well, it’s a cookie with a snap. It’s gotta have a snap. That’s I think is the definer, yeah. Yeah, like when you break it, you can hear a bit of it. Yeah, yeah, so a bit like those, I think for the American market, the biscoff, you know those kind of like when you snap them, yes, that would be the texture.

Shannon Popkin (00:56)
Okay, a snap. What is a snap? Is that like a crunch? Okay, you hear the snap. Okay.

yes, yes. Gotcha.

Okay, and so chocolate hobnob, that is awesome. I’m gonna have to try that sometime. And so you may have noticed Felicity grew up in South England. So, and now, yeah, like I said, lives in Chicago. So we’re gonna talk today about the…

Shannon Popkin (01:31)
the Pharisee and the tax collector found in Luke 18. It’s a story that Jesus told. But Felicity, before we dive into that, I have to tell you something that happened yesterday. I was sitting in a parking lot talking with my friend on the phone, getting ready to go into the grocery store, but I wanted to finish up my conversation. So I’m just sitting in this parking lot and all of sudden I said to my friend, Jamie, ⁓ my goodness, this man just drove into a pole.

Felicity Carswell (01:57)
⁓

Shannon Popkin (01:57)
a pole in the middle of

Felicity Carswell (01:58)
no!

Shannon Popkin (01:59)
the parking lot and I was laughing. I’m like, I cannot believe he did that. What in the world? He must have been looking at his phone, you know? And she’s like, is he okay? And I’m like, oh, he’s only going like 15 miles an hour. But I heard this big crack, you know, I’m sure he’s fine, but the car, I don’t know. And so we’re laughing about it. And all of a sudden I went, oh, my goodness, I think I’m judging him.

I I am writing a book about a judgy, it’s called Judgy Girl. And here I am sitting here being a judgy girl, judging this man. And then, do know what I remembered? Years ago, maybe like 10 or 15 years ago, I drove into someone’s mailbox. I was sitting like kind of on the side of the road. I was looking at some paper and didn’t realize I had lifted my foot off. And I drove right into someone’s mailbox.

Felicity Carswell (02:42)
Ha

Shannon Popkin (02:53)
like you heard this crack and I was like, my goodness, what in the world? I just drove right into it and the person came out of their house and they were so gracious. They said, ⁓ we’ve been meaning to replace that. It’s okay, don’t worry. And I was like, what? I need to buy you a new mailbox. And they’re like, no, no, no. And it was like down in the ground, you know, I mean, obviously. So here I am laughing at this man for doing something I have.

Felicity Carswell (03:08)
So kind.

Mmm.

Shannon Popkin (03:21)
exactly done. And that’s just how it is with judging others, right? We… yeah. Yes, there is something about driving that we think I would never and yet I have. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, well, we’re going to see someone in this parable who’s judging. But let’s first, I just want to set up before the parable.

Felicity Carswell (03:25)
That’s so true. Don’t the roads and driving bring it out in us?

Yeah, I’m just… Yeah, exactly.

Shannon Popkin (03:45)
Verse 9 reads, Jesus told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and treated others with contempt. So this is sort of the backdrop of the parable. Do you have any thoughts on that? Like why Jesus would want to respond to that?

Felicity Carswell (04:05)
Well, I think that what we, so if you were to flick back just even to kind of halfway through chapter 17, you get this question being asked by the Pharisees and the Pharisees are kind of like a big players in this dialogue. And they’ve asked Jesus, when is the kingdom of God coming? And it seems that Luke is kind of homing in on the kingdom and the king at this point. And there’s something in this question of when is the kingdom coming in that kind of.

We’re ready for it. We’re ready for when the kingdom of God is coming because actually we kind of think we’re the guys. We’re like the ones who the kingdom of God, you know, we’re to be in there. And so as he, I think that as he says this in verse nine, Luke is kind of bringing into focus again, and we’ve already had it because we’ve just heard about the persistent widow. It’s all a little bit surprising because he’s kind of moved from the when question rather than saying when. Jesus has said, you know, it’s going to be a surprise. would just be ready for it.

Shannon Popkin (04:44)
Uh-huh.

Felicity Carswell (05:03)
And then he kind of makes a bit of a curve and he’s like, well, let’s talk about the who. And we’ve already had a bit of a surprise in the previous parable, but then we get to this point. He also told this parable to some who trusted themselves and the Pharisees are kind of in the spotlight at this point. And this idea of trusting in themselves, Luke has been talking about faith quite a lot in these last sort of few chapters. So what is it to have true faith?

And it seems that the Pharisees have got their focus wrong because they seem to be trusting or having faith in themselves rather than in, well, in Jesus, in what God gives.

Shannon Popkin (05:42)
So,

right, so you’re saying trusting in themselves. Is it trusting in themselves to be ready for this kingdom or to enter this kingdom to be like kingdom residents? What do you think?

Felicity Carswell (05:54)
Yeah,

I think probably all of that, this kind of readiness. And Luke says here, trusting themselves that they were righteous. And so they’ve kind of clocked that you need to be righteous to get into the kingdom of God. And so the question I think that is being raised is, what makes you righteous? And we’re gonna hear this particular Pharisee, this kind of parable Pharisee in view. He’s got a very clear idea of what he thinks makes him righteous. And the surprise is actually is kind of different.

Shannon Popkin (06:05)
Mm-hmm. Okay.

Okay.

Felicity Carswell (06:23)
what he thinks.

Shannon Popkin (06:23)
Yes,

yes, I was noticing that Jesus didn’t just say, he told the parable to some who thought they were righteous, but that trusted in themselves. You know, they didn’t just think they were righteous, they trusted their own righteousness, right? They thought of themselves like, this has already been established. This is who I am. There’s this self-reliance, like, I can be a good person. I can keep myself from being a bad person.

Felicity Carswell (06:35)
Mmm.

Yes, yeah.

Yeah.

Mmm.

Shannon Popkin (06:53)
And that self-reliance, I think it’s just so offensive to God. It’s like as if we don’t need Him, right? And look what a mess we’ve made of ourselves without Him. And so it’s like, just throughout the Gospels, I consistently see His just response to our self-reliance. It reminds me of when my little boy, Cade, was about maybe, I don’t know, three or four, back when we still would wipe his nose.

Felicity Carswell (07:01)
Mmm.

Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (07:22)
I went to wipe his nose one time. I said, come over here. Let me wipe your nose. And he goes, Oh no, no, no, mom. Look what I learned. I can do it all by myself. I, and he goes, like you’re running nose and he just sucked it all back in. Like, look what I can do. Like I don’t need your help anymore. And I was like, that is really disgusting. Get over here. Let me wipe your nose. As if like, you know, it’s just like that. I feel like that’s a good picture of.

Felicity Carswell (07:42)
Yeah.

haha

Shannon Popkin (07:50)
our self-reliance, like that I can suck it all back up and, you know, clean myself up. I am good. I can keep myself from being bad. And God is not okay with that. Like Jesus is really confronting that idea here. What about though the part about, it says that they trusted themselves that they were righteous and treated others with contempt. Do you see any like pairing of those two?

Felicity Carswell (08:12)
Hmm.

The trusting in themselves, because I think that kind of follows, doesn’t it? So if you’re certain of yourself and your own righteousness, if you think you don’t need any help, then that suggests that you are self-sufficient. And actually, anyone who even suggests that they might need help, anyone who is not claiming such righteousness, well then, they’re probably not as good as I am.

So there’s a very, it’s hierarchical, isn’t that? In the sense of if you are trusting in yourself, then well, I’ve made it. And from my position of apparently having made it, I’m going to look down at anyone else. And I think that’s really telling, isn’t it? This treated others with contempt, especially not to jump too far ahead, but just to get to the end of that passage, verse 14, this idea of exalting, because that’s the contrasting of the humility versus exalting oneself.

And so what is it to, like if you’re exalted, you’re kind of lifted up, which kind of marries with this idea of holding others in contempt and looking down.

Shannon Popkin (09:16)
Yes,

yes, I see that pairing too. Yeah, so the bookends of this parable are we have the ones who trusted themselves and treated others with contempt. And then Jesus closes with his little reversal statement, for anyone who exalts himself will be humbled and whoever humbles himself will be exalted. He’s describing the kingdom here. And his comment,

Felicity Carswell (09:37)
Hmm.

Shannon Popkin (09:41)
His comment is not on how we treat each other. know, at the beginning he’s talking about here, they see themselves one way, they treat each other another way, but he ends just with how we see ourselves, we exalt ourselves. And there is a natural following with, if I see myself as exalted, I will treat others with this contempt. Contempt not only says something about you, it says something about me, right?

Felicity Carswell (10:01)
Mmm.

Yeah, I think that’s right, yeah. The pride.

Shannon Popkin (10:12)
If I look at your sin,

yes, if I look at your sin with disgust, I’m not only saying you’re disgusting, but I’m also saying I’m not, right? Like picture me laughing at that guy who drove into the pole, you know? I’m not only like, my word, who would do that? But I’m also saying I would never. And yet that is the furthest thing from the truth because I am the one who drove into the mailbox. And so.

Felicity Carswell (10:22)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

hahahaha

Shannon Popkin (10:39)
And so, yeah, so Jesus is helping us to look at ourselves with this parable. So would you go ahead and read from verse 10 through the end? What is that? 10 through 14?

Felicity Carswell (10:48)
Absolutely.

Yeah. Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee standing by himself prayed, thus, God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week. I give tithes of all that I get. But the tax collector standing far off would not even lift up his eyes to heaven.

but beat his breast saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you this man went down to his house justified rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.

Shannon Popkin (11:30)
So what’s the big surprise of this story? You know, if we’re going to tell a story, there has to be something unexpected in it, some surprise. And so what is Jesus’ surprise here?

Felicity Carswell (11:41)
Well the surprise comes in verse 14. This man, the tax collector, went down to his house justified rather than the other. And I think to the people listening, well to the Pharisees particularly, but to any of the onlookers listening, the Pharisees were the religious establishment. They were kind of dead-sir kingdom people from where it, that’s what it looked like. And this story turns that on its head.

and it’s the Pharisee who is not justified, even though he lists off all these things that he’s done. And that seems to be the key, doesn’t it? He’s kind of a little obsessed with what he has done in comparison to what others haven’t. And the tax collector, his posture, you just can’t get more different to how the Pharisee is. yeah, the very fact he’s a tax collector, we know in the Roman times these were

And these were Jewish people who had basically betrayed their people by collecting the taxes from them. That’s like the baddie role, isn’t it? That’s the villain of the people. And yet this tax collector who’s not offering anything that he’s done, he’s just crying out for mercy. He is the one who is justified. The declaration of his sin is the thing which means that he needs mercy. And it’s that which means that he’s justified.

Shannon Popkin (12:46)
Mm-hmm.

Felicity Carswell (13:06)
The Pharisee, I think it’s interesting, the Pharisee, the repeated word throughout what he’s saying is I. I mean, he says God once, but he says I, I, I, I, and that’s kind of where he’s at. That reflects this kind of trusting in himself, I did, doesn’t it? Let me tell you God about all that I’ve done. And the tax collector, God be merciful to me. He’s crying out for the Lord to act, be merciful. And the Pharisee is saying,

Shannon Popkin (13:38)
Yes, so good. So the Pharisee, even just reading what he says to God, we would think, ⁓ well, he clearly is the one justified. It’s like our assumption would be, ⁓ it is what you do, and it is what you don’t do. That makes you justified. And that word justified, I mean, it has justice, right, at its root. It’s sort of like a court.

Felicity Carswell (13:51)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (14:05)
room word, you know? And so this series is on judging, right? And so here it’s almost like this Pharisee, he’s going to court and he is presenting himself before the judge and he’s bringing all of the evidence, you know? And it all stacks up very nicely on his behalf. Like here are the things he hasn’t done. What were they? You know, I haven’t been an extortioner. I haven’t been unjust. I’m not an adulterer. I’m not even like this tax collector over here, you know? He sees distance between him.

Felicity Carswell (14:10)
Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (14:34)
and all the sinners. And then he lists what he does do, right? So there’s more evidence he’s bringing. I fast, I give tithes, these things I do repeatedly over and over, weekly, twice a week. I always, every time I receive, I give, right? And so he’s listing out all of the evidence before the judge and the assumption is that, okay, the judge will rule in his favor.

Felicity Carswell (14:35)
Hmm.

Shannon Popkin (15:01)
He is justified and yet he is the one who is not justified. That’s the surprise of the story. And you said something about their posture. What do you see in contrast there? You said their posture couldn’t be more different.

Felicity Carswell (15:03)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Well, yeah,

well, so he, the Pharisee, even just through their body language, which I think body language, you know, often betrays the heart, doesn’t it? So the Pharisee standing by himself, you can imagine him sort of setting himself apart from the crowd, probably further towards the altar, in my view. Not that he says that, but I imagine that’s kind of where he is. And then in contrast, verse 13, the tax collector standing far off, like he’s just so aware.

Shannon Popkin (15:26)
Yes it does.

Yeah. Yeah.

Felicity Carswell (15:43)
His posture is such, he is so aware of his sin. He’s like, can’t be up close to the altar, if they’re in the temple at this point, how could I possibly approach the throne of the Lord, of the King of Kings? And that kind of, the humility in that, he would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but he beat his breast. There’s just such heart-level humility in the way that he is approaching the Lord.

The teller is, it’s all about prayer, isn’t it? So they’re both praying. Jesus said, he said earlier on, he told them a parable in chapter 18, that they’re always to pray and not lose heart. So prayer is kind of in focus a bit. And as they’re praying, that is a kind of a teller as to the heart. Where do they think they stand in relation to God? that is very, it’s kind of poignant, isn’t it? The way the tax collector.

Shannon Popkin (16:26)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Yes.

Felicity Carswell (16:41)
He just won’t even look up because he’s just so ashamed. This sin is just weighing heavy on him. And the idea that he just beats his breast, which is in itself almost a kind of pointing to the heart. Like I know my sin is not just what you see, there’s sin on the inside as well. I’m rotten through. yeah, a very real picture of what sin is there, I think. And the sweetness of it is, like despite that, and that’s just such a,

Shannon Popkin (17:02)
Hmm.

so good.

Felicity Carswell (17:12)
Such an indicting picture, isn’t it, in some ways? Like, sin is evident, I know my sin on the outside, I know it on the inside, I don’t dare approach, I’m beating my breast, and yet, this is the man who is justified. So the fact that he can be so honest about that, there’s no kind of veiling it, there’s no hiding, there’s no pushing forwards all the things I’ve done, the righteous acts, instead, as a sinner, the posture of I can be a sinner.

and I can ask for mercy. So powerful.

Shannon Popkin (17:44)
It’s almost like he’s entering the courtroom guilty as charged. Like I bring no defense. I bring no evidence of my righteousness that I don’t have it. I come lacking. come, you know, contrite. And there’s a different, there’s a component of this story that Jesus is telling that I don’t know that we in our modern sense picture it correctly because, you know, whenever in a movie or whatever you picture somebody going,

Felicity Carswell (17:49)
Mmm, yeah.

Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (18:13)
into a church to pray. I usually picture them alone in the church, know, like filing in, like there’s maybe candles lit or something and they go alone in a pew and pray. But this is the temple where they had morning prayer and evening prayer. And so this would be a whole crowd of people. so the tax collector, or I’m sorry, the Pharisee, he’s even he’s looking over at this tax collector. But it’s almost like, you know, he’s if he’s close to the altar, he’s probably

Felicity Carswell (18:20)
Yeah.

Mmm.

Shannon Popkin (18:42)
closest to the other people. And he’s, it says, see, standing by himself. He wants to be separate from others. He doesn’t want to touch any sinners and be defiled because he’s a Pharisee. But he’s praying out loud, right? It’s like others could listen in and hear him. With this sort of posture, just picture him, God, I thank you. And Jesus talked about how the Pharisees would pray.

Felicity Carswell (18:54)
Mmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (19:12)
to gain attention from other people. And so yes, he’s talking to God, but he’s also making a statement in a public way. Whereas the contrast with this tax collector, he’s far off. He’s not interested in making a statement to other people. And in one translation, it says, God be merciful to me, the sinner. I think it’s the NASB says me the sinner. And so it’s like, he clears everyone else out of the room. He is just there.

Felicity Carswell (19:14)
Yeah.

Mmm.

Mmm.

Shannon Popkin (19:41)
to talk with God, to do business with God. He comes as the one who has nothing to offer on his behalf. He is the sinner, the sinner. And I’m just picturing Felicity even in the way that we come to church or we pray publicly or we talk about ourselves, either pray corporately. Like there is a certain way to come to church.

Felicity Carswell (19:41)
Yeah.

Hmm.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (20:07)
and

see yourself as the good guy or just like body language, you know? I mean, I kind of like to sit in the front row and I wonder if that says anything to anybody. just, like, don’t like there to be distractions. went, I’m here to hear the sermon and I have my little notebook and I’m, you know, I’m one of the good people, right? I’m a front row girl and I, you know, I have my little journaling Bibles. I can take my notes and I love that. Yeah, I love that.

Felicity Carswell (20:10)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Hahaha

Yeah.

Hmm, yeah, me too.

Shannon Popkin (20:37)
But

I mean, do I come to church with that demeanor of here I am, the sinner, right? Am I ever broken during, we’re singing, am I aware of my shortcomings or am I there kind of parading my spiritual superiority? You know, I don’t know, I just, felt some conviction about that.

Felicity Carswell (20:44)
Yeah.

Yeah, nice, yeah, it’s

challenging that. And I think even just that he says, be merciful to me, a sinner. And definition of mercy, not receiving what you do deserve. So he is very aware that he deserves God’s wrath. And in that then, be merciful, God, don’t give me what I deserve. And the contrast of the Pharisee, you can imagine the Pharisee would not use the word mercy because he doesn’t think he deserves the wrath.

Shannon Popkin (21:07)
Yes.

Yes.

No.

Right.

Felicity Carswell (21:24)
And so

there’s just a real contrast in that, the idea that we would cry out for mercy and that we know to cry out for mercy from God because actually it’s to God who we give account. It’s not to those around us because the way the Pharisee goes about it, he is kind of more concerned about other people. His righteousness seems, in his mind, his righteousness is kind of thrown into the spotlight by the fact that others aren’t apparently as righteous as he is. But.

Shannon Popkin (21:50)
Well, that’s actually

what he’s basing his righteousness on is I’m not like these other people and I do things that other people don’t do. But I love that you use the word deserving, right? Because that really is at the heart of mercy is what do I deserve? I don’t deserve or I do deserve wrath. That’s what mercy is saying when you cry out for mercy, exactly what you just said. I deserve wrath, could I please have mercy?

Felicity Carswell (21:52)
Mmm.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (22:15)
and

flip-flopped with the Pharisee. Yeah, you’re exactly right. He sees himself as deserving. I deserve kingdom entrance. I’m one of the good guys. You’re gonna need me for your team. You probably lucky. Exactly, exactly. And in such contrast. Now, I understand that you came to faith later in life. And I wonder if any of these sentiments were more poignant as an adult coming.

Felicity Carswell (22:23)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, he’s like lucky. You’re so lucky to have me. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (22:45)
to Christ versus I came to Christ as a four-year-old. so, I mean, and I like, I do definitely look back at terribly sinful times in my life or, you know, the more mature I become as a believer, the more aware I am of my sin, it’s not working the opposite direction. But I wonder if, yeah, did you feel, tell us a little bit about your story and did you feel like you were crying out for mercy?

Felicity Carswell (22:48)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I think that’s, I was at university. I must have been 21, 21. I was at university and I would have said I was a pretty good girl, to be honest. You I was pretty, just high achieving and I had lots of friends and all the things, know, life seemed to be going to plan. And I would have called myself a Christian just because I was English really, you know, I don’t know whether you guys would with that. But so then I turned up to university and I met people who were Christians and their lives.

were different to mine. My life in no way, I would have called myself a good girl, really my life was in no way centered around Christ and actually was rapidly moving away from anything good. And there was very distinctive living by the Christians in amongst my context. I played a lot of sports and the sport social scene. And then there was in particular a girl who was becoming my best friend. She was just

she was light, she was light in the middle of the darkness and it was very attractive and very different and really quite convicting as well because she was saying she was a Christian, I was saying I was a Christian and there were just very different ways of doing life and yeah mmm

Shannon Popkin (24:24)
Like this parable, like two

people coming who say they’re part of, they’re at the temple together, they’re approaching God in the same way, and yet there’s a disparity. so what did you, do you think, can you remember anything that you saw in her specifically that was different?

Felicity Carswell (24:32)
Yep.

Well, we’ve talked about posture. think actually one of the most distinctive things was not that she was living the perfect life. She would say that that was not in any way her glowing year of being the best Christian girl around. But what was really evident was that when she didn’t do things God’s way, she was cut up about that. But she knew how to ask for forgiveness. And I saw her lamenting her sin.

receiving forgiveness and seeking to keep honouring Christ. And the more and more she did that, I saw her faith grow as she was, I guess, wrestling through what it is to be 21 in a new context, trying to work out all of these things. And so in some ways, the messiness of her life, but keeping Jesus at the centre, was really different. Because I think in my mind, previously, I’d thought,

Christians are supposed to be really good. I mean, I would have matched up the Christian to the Pharisee, probably. It’s all about doing the right things and being religious and going to church and all those things. Not that I was attending church at that point, but I kind of had that picture. And what was striking about my friend was that her posture, her heart was really obvious and that her life was orientated around Jesus. And that meant that she could receive mercy and she could receive forgiveness.

And that really, it really spoke to me. was, as I said, my life was, I was just making mistake after mistake. And it was more and more apparent that, you know, these were not good decisions that I was making. And my friend and I would have conversations about the gospel, but I would only have those conversations at nighttime. She’s like, let’s go for a coffee. Let’s just talk about this. then I was like, oh, it’s just a bit much. I know it’s a bit serious. And I was feeling the conviction, you know, like I can only talk about this when we’re.

out in a nightclub or something ridiculous. She’s like, please, please, can we go for a coffee the next morning? And eventually I agree. And we started reading Mark’s gospel together, just on a one-to-one basis, just sat down and got the Bible open. I’d never read the Bible. That hadn’t been a part of my growing up. And I think what became really apparent was that Christ was the best. mean, the best. I encountered him.

Shannon Popkin (26:33)
Interesting.

Felicity Carswell (26:59)
and I wanted to follow him and I wanted to be like him. I wanted to live the life that he was describing. But I really couldn’t, I really couldn’t. And before that point, I been someone who kind of just, I could fix my things. I could get a good grade, I could be in a sports team. If you asked me to do something, I’d just find a way to do it. But deal with my sin. Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah, just, I’ll just work it out, just be better.

Shannon Popkin (27:20)
There’s that self-reliance, right? Yeah, there it is. Sniff it all back up.

Felicity Carswell (27:29)
But actually,

when you really feel your sin, when that conviction, you know, the Holy Spirit brings to light the reality of sin inside and out, I can’t do anything about that and I need mercy. And I just remember this moment of just thinking, wow, I cannot fix this. I have nothing to offer here. All the accolades, all the things that have kind of, you know, got me to the place where I am, all these things, they actually mean nothing.

in contrast to what Christ has done for me on the cross. And that was a really big moment. Well, a life-changing moment. That is the just a total abrupt change of direction. And as I think you mentioned, I’m more aware of your sin now than you were before. that’s the thing, isn’t it? That moment where I realized my need for mercy and I saw the, just the blood of Christ was exactly what I needed.

Shannon Popkin (28:05)
Yeah, the big moment, right? The big moment. Yeah.

Felicity Carswell (28:27)
That I think, I thought, well, this will be this moment and then I’ll need it less. You know, I’ll be a Christian. But actually, we’re more aware of our sin. The more we keep going as Christians, the Holy Spirit is at work in us. We’re knowing Jesus better. We’re seeing sin for what it is more clearly. We’re seeing godliness to be more desirable. I remember reading, quite early on in my Christian life, I remember reading a biography of Charles Simeon. He was a minister in Cambridge, like back in the 1800s.

Shannon Popkin (28:56)
the semi-intrusive,

semi-intrusive, uh-huh. Right, right. Uh-huh.

Felicity Carswell (28:58)
Yeah, Simeon Trust came out of him. Yeah, yeah, not came out of him, but you know, in honor of him. And he

had a kind of confessional diary. He was kind of like a journal, if you like, of where he would write his confessions. And the biographer was saying his confessional diary, his pages got longer, the longer he lived. And instinctively you think, well, surely he gets more like Jesus the longer he follows him. But actually his awareness of his sin, his tax collector, like,

The was more and more the case the longer he walked with Jesus. And I think that’s so true. Even just being in this passage as we’re preparing to come and have this conversation with you. It’s so striking, isn’t it? Like God be merciful to me, the sinner. Like that is true, that’s still true. I am a sinner, the sinner. Between me and God, like this is us. Like I’m the sinner and I need his mercy. And that, yeah, I’m.

Shannon Popkin (29:48)
Yes,

Felicity Carswell (29:57)
just continually thankful for my friend showing me and walking me into the mercy of Christ and all the more thankful that this is a continual gift of mercy.

Shannon Popkin (30:02)
It’s beautiful. Yes.

Yes,

I’m thinking of the verse, his mercies are new every morning. Like, why would we need them if we have decreasing need for mercy? it’s like, we always need it. It’s just, do we realize? Do we realize that we need it? And I just love that you looked in on her life and what you noticed was that she did not feel deserving, right, of…

Felicity Carswell (30:11)
Mmm.

Yep.

Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (30:34)
she did not see herself as righteous, but she knew what to do about it. She knew where to go to get the mercy. And I also love that you read the Bible together, which is what you model so well in Two Sisters and a Cup of Tea. I don’t remember if I mentioned that at the top of the program, but that’s your podcast, Two Sisters and a Cup of Tea. yeah, that’s what you guys model is sitting down together to talk about the Bible, which is what we’re doing right now too.

Felicity Carswell (30:37)
Mm. Yeah.

Hahaha.

Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (31:04)
know, Felicity, I’m also thinking about how we as believers, like, you your story was a believer and an unbeliever, but even as believers, being honest about our need is so important. I remember reaching out to a friend years ago. I was in a little friend group and my relationship with one woman had kind of blown up and I didn’t really understand. There was all of…

I was trying to work through what had happened and I noticed I was just like stuck. was like, I was crying and crying and thinking about it and I couldn’t figure it out. So I called another friend and I just said to her, her name, we’ll call her Beth. So I’m saying to Beth like, I just feel like I am constantly causing people to be hurt and offended. You know, I’ve had these different situations over the past, you know, five or six years where

Felicity Carswell (31:47)
Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (32:01)
Like consistently in my relationships, people are hurt and offended by me. And so like, I’m just inviting you, is there something you see in me? Is there something that you like that I’m doing? Is there something about my personality? Like how I treat people? Like what is it? Which was very humbling to do, right? And so, yeah, yeah. And so here’s what Beth said. She goes, Shannon, I’m just gonna be brutally honest. I’m gonna be brutally honest. You sometimes seem superior to others. You kind of.

Felicity Carswell (32:12)
Hmm. yeah, very humble and wise though, wise to invite.

Mm.

Shannon Popkin (32:30)
seem like and she’s like, I don’t think you’re trying to be this way. But she brought up alcohol. She said, you know, I don’t drink. And whenever there would be alcohol in the group, she’d say, you know, just wondering, like, what are you thinking about the rest of us? know, are we like the sinners who drink alcohol and you’re, you know, you’re superior and or how you talk about your kids or I don’t know, just how you talk about your life. And she said, you know, in that conversation, she’s like,

Felicity Carswell (32:49)
Hmm.

Shannon Popkin (33:00)
I am not saying this is right the way that I’m, you know, like I don’t know that you’re judging me. And I think there is a, we feel judged and we become judgy. Like there’s this thing that we do, you know, when I feel judged by you, then I start judging. And she’s like, I’m not saying that’s right, but I do, sometimes I feel like you’re superior to the rest of us, whether or not you think that. And so she opened my eyes to something.

Felicity Carswell (33:11)
Yeah. Yeah.

you

Shannon Popkin (33:31)
As I process that conversation with her, I’m like, these are my closest friends right now. They are my closest friends. And if they think that I think I am without sin, there is a serious problem because I am a terribly sinful person. Like I am at home, you know, I think this was at the point where I was just really struggling with anger and I was blowing up at my kids and I felt so guilty about this. And like, why would my friends, I just had to face the fact like,

Felicity Carswell (33:46)
Hmm.

Shannon Popkin (34:01)
they didn’t actually know those things about me. They didn’t actually know how much I was working through my sin on a daily basis and needing God’s mercy. And why was that? Why would they ever think of me as superior, right? And so it was like, my goodness, I need to be vulnerable with my friends. Like these friendships, are they really real? Are they really my people that I’m walking?

Felicity Carswell (34:03)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Mm.

Shannon Popkin (34:27)
with God alongside if they don’t know. And so that really, think that little interaction has helped me along the way. I never want my friends, like if they see something good in me, I’m quick to remind them anything good you see in me is only because I’ve received the mercy of this is not what I deserve and anything lacking that you see in me, that’s also hard.

when my sin is readily apparent, where I have nowhere to go but the cross with these things. And so I think walking alongside each other, know, what I see in this story is this Pharisee so distanced himself, he saw himself as the superior one and God saw him differently, right? And so the beauty of this Pharisee, or I’m sorry, the tax collector saying, God be merciful to me, the sinner.

Felicity Carswell (34:56)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (35:23)
It’s just, it’s not only how we’re talking to God, but it’s how we are in groups of people too.

Felicity Carswell (35:28)
I think that’s right, and I think there’s a, because of verse 14, this man went down to his house, justifies through the cross, through the blood of Jesus, then we’re free to be messy. We can invite people in because we’re not dependent upon the judgements of others. It doesn’t matter what other people think because we are justified by God himself. And I think that’s the freedom.

Shannon Popkin (35:51)
So good.

Felicity Carswell (35:56)
that was evident in my friend. And I think that has really struck me as I’ve, you 20 years on, I think that’s something that I have sought to keep being messy. Literally, I have quite a messy house, but that my life is quite messy in the kind of like, just find me as I am and know that Jesus is my mercy, my hope, and that, know, that I’m imperfect in that, but I think that’s really powerful. And I, interestingly, I’ve been.

Shannon Popkin (36:07)
Yes, yes.

Yeah.

Felicity Carswell (36:22)
given that I opened the Bible with, someone opened the Bible with me and I became to faith. I always seek to do this with unbelievers and I’ve been doing it over the last two or three years. I’ve been doing it with a fellow mum, a school mum, and she’s, where she is in her faith, I’m not quite sure, but we’ve been reading the Bible on and off for a while. And I’ve been, you you pray and you seek to witness and seek to be the best Christian ever to show her that this is just the best life and come on, come on over, like Jesus is the way, all these things.

Shannon Popkin (36:44)
You

Felicity Carswell (36:51)
this moment where I really messed up and it was really messy and she was kind of had a front row seat to that. And there was this more, it’s mortifying, isn’t it? We’re like, this is like the opposite of what I’m trying to present to you. And we had this amazing, like several conversations as I was just able to talk to her about forgiveness and to express my, just lament of my sin. I just so mortifying and also yet to know the grace. And in that moment,

was where she moved closer to Jesus than she’s ever been before. And I think it’s just really powerful, isn’t it? It’s powerful in our discipling as we’re walking alongside other believers and it’s powerful with the unbelievers as well. And because of the justification of Christ, then we’re free to just invite people in as we are justified people, not dependent upon us, but on Jesus.

Shannon Popkin (37:25)
So good.

Yes.

Mm hmm. Yeah, I mean, I’m just thinking like this is, you know, kind of we talked about a courtroom setting, like justification, there’s justice, like the gavel has fallen and we have been proclaimed not guilty. Jesus says you are free to go, go and sin no more. You know, you’re free. Like there’s there is no judgment that we have. Like there’s no more bringing my stack of evidence. It’s already been determined that I was guilty and yet I’m

Felicity Carswell (37:56)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (38:14)
because of Jesus, because He took my place on the cross and His righteousness has been imputed to me, I have been forgiven. I have been justified. I can go and sin no more. And yet, even when I do sin, I go back to what He’s accomplished for me. So what a beautiful, I just love these stories and how this has worked itself out in our life. Felicity, could you just close us by finishing this sentence? You as you think about this story.

Felicity Carswell (38:24)
Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (38:45)
I can live like the story is true or I live like the story is true when I… How would you, how would you feel that?

Felicity Carswell (38:52)
when I am made very aware of my sin, but yet I can still approach the throne of grace and know that I am justified.

Shannon Popkin (39:03)
So good, so good. Thank you so much, friend. This has been amazing.

Felicity Carswell (39:08)
My pleasure. Thanks so much for having me.