Shannon Popkin (00:00) Well, Sandra Curry, welcome back to live like it’s true for part two of your story. Yeah, we’re so glad to have we’re so glad to have you. ⁓ Sandra’s gonna tell us more about her story of infidelity and redemption, reconciliation. ⁓

Sandra Currie (00:04) Thank you for having me back.

Shannon Popkin (00:20) You’re gonna want to go back and listen to part one, because we talked about Sandra’s experience of feeling betrayal. ⁓ In her marriage, we talked about Jesus and Judas and how Judas also betrayed with a kiss. And how we talked about shame, how Sandra felt undue shame, and couldn’t look her husband in the eye for many months. how we know, we compared that to Jesus, should Jesus have felt any shame.

by

being betrayed by Judas and the answer is no. Jesus did nothing wrong. He was completely righteous. ⁓ But we also talked about the difference between judging and exercising good judgment. So there’s lots of good stuff in part two of our conversation, but I want to continue.

Sandra because okay, where we left off, you have just had like, this, the you’ve you’ve, it’s all been fully disclosed. ⁓ You sent James away. And for months, then you can’t look him in the eye. ⁓ And so and you said last time when we were talking that yeah, there was this like,

I don’t trust you. You are almost like you are beneath me, like, like righteous anger, but also mingled with some contempt. Would you say contempt is a good word? Okay. Okay. And here’s what I know about judgy people like me. I struggle so much with judging and I can’t communicate my judgy disgust.

Sandra Currie (01:41) I think contempt is a good word, yes. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (01:58) towards somebody else without elevating myself in that moment. know, judgment is always…

targeted downward. Judgment is always like there’s always a component where I’m lifting myself up in righteous indignation, in self exaltation, in you know, there’s always just a part of it where you are that and I am not. You know, I never have, I never would, I never could. And we explored some of these themes in Comparison Girl, that study that you were in, right? It’s like comparing down, you know, we always think of comparison as like,

Sandra Currie (02:30) Yes, yeah.

Shannon Popkin (02:36) feeling inadequate and insecure, but there’s this other kind of comparing that compares down. And it’s mingled together with judgment, contempt. And so when I use that word contempt, here’s what I mean. ⁓ Contempt in the Bible is like this, it indicates like I have weighed and measured this person and made a final judgment about them. They are worthless. They are nothing. are are despicable in my eyes.

And that right there is just not our place, right? It’s just not our place. ⁓ Jesus is the judge of all, and he alone holds the final gavel. And when we slide up on his bench prematurely and take that gavel in our hands, like I, in my book, I’ve written this ⁓ allegory that kind of weaves through the book. And I talk about people trying to gavels, but they’re silent. We can’t hear them because they don’t

Sandra Currie (03:33) Hmm.

Shannon Popkin (03:34) they don’t we don’t have the right we don’t have the place to pound any final gavel that belongs to Jesus alone ⁓ and so tell us about that discovery in your heart was there ever a point where you realized that you had become sinful in your judgment of James

Sandra Currie (03:41) Yep.

gosh, that’s a good question. So, did I feel sinful in my judging of him at the time? No, absolutely not. Because his sin was so big and so great and so hurtful that I was more in that place of what did I do to deserve this? Am I not pretty enough? Am I not skinny enough? Am I not…

I mean, you could go on and on and on on, right? And it wasn’t until later through recovery that I had to take pause and go, okay, his affair was not my fault, but where was I not wifing? Is that a word? Wifing? Where was I not being a good wife?

Again, not my fault that he had an affair, but I needed to say, where can I make changes? And then I had to unpack all of that and deal with that as well. And that is what also saved our marriage. He did it, I did it, and then we did it together. So I had to start judging myself.

Shannon Popkin (04:55) Right.

Sandra Currie (05:20) my actions, my past behavior, where I needed to just be, where I had hurt him and where I wasn’t meeting his needs. Again, I wanna stress because I wasn’t meeting his needs doesn’t mean that it justified an affair. So I can’t say that more.

Shannon Popkin (05:40) Right.

It kind of reminds me of Where like girls are shamed because they cause men to lust. Like, no, you don’t take on that shame on yourself. Like you don’t cause anybody to lust, but yes, please be modest. You know, like, it’s both the end. It’s like, no, you can’t take on…

Sandra Currie (05:47) Mm-hmm, yeah. No.

Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (06:00) that responsibility, he’s responsible for his mind. But yes, you are responsible for the way you dress and please don’t walk to church in a bikini, you know, like it’s just not not helpful. Right. And so and so I think, yeah, that’s that’s good. And right. And what I hear you saying is, you know, so many times in these stories of judgment in the Bible, people being judgment, judgmental toward one another.

there’s this contempt, there’s this disgust, like, I am completely separate from you. In fact, when Simon is looking at the sinful woman who’s kissing Jesus’s feet, he calls her the vat sort. He says like, this, this prophet must not know he must not be a prophet, because he doesn’t know who and what sort of woman this is. And so the implication is she’s a different sort than me. Like we are as separate as you could possibly be. ⁓ I would never I have never. And, you know, there’s this

holy contempt. what I hear you saying, Sandra, is exactly the opposite of that. You’re saying, well, I’m not Jesus. I am not completely holy and righteous. And I have contributed to the brokenness in our relationship. Where Jesus can look at Judas and say, he is completely 100 % righteous, there is absolutely no reason to self-reflect. Jesus did everything right for Judas. And yet, okay, look at this with me.

Judas had a front row seat to glory. He had a front row seat to truth. had a front row seat to an intimate relationship with the most amazing. mean, Jesus is like the easiest person to ever get along with. He is the kindest, the most, ⁓ most fun friend, the most intelligent friend, the most, mean, nobody tops Jesus. People flock to him. They loved him and Judas got in on that. He got in on like the intimate one of the 12, like the gospels repeatedly refer to

him all four gospels they refer to him as Judas one of the twelve and it’s not like we’re gonna forget he was one of the twelve I think what they’re saying is like this jaw-dropping like I can’t believe one of the twelve would betray him and yet

Sandra Currie (07:56) Yeah.

Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (08:09) Look at how Jesus responds, not just to Judas, but all of the people who are treating him with such wrong contempt, like such. I mean, they’re there. They turn on him like a week ago. They were saying, yelling Hosanna. Now they’re they’re yelling, crucify him. And they’re spitting at him and they are hitting him in the face and they are mocking and saying, which one hit you Messiah? And they are belittling him. And they are. I mean, it is they are.

Sandra Currie (08:24) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (08:36) stripping him of all of his human dignity, let alone his deity dignity. I mean, this is the most valuable being in the universe and they completely strip him of dignity. They strip him physically, they strip him with their words and with their actions, they’re spitting in his face. And so how does Jesus respond when that cross is like put in place when Jesus hangs on that cross?

Sandra Currie (08:48) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (09:05) Here’s how he responds with his arms wide open. says, Father, be merciful on them. They don’t know what they’re doing. Jesus responds to utter sinfulness with mercy and

I mean, Sandra, I look at that and I think I just can’t. can’t. If I was in your shoes, I’d be like, I can’t. I have got none of that in me. And that’s exactly right. We can’t. That’s why he did. know, Jesus not only died in our place, he lived in our place. He chose rightly in every way that we have failed.

Sandra Currie (09:29) Okay.

Okay.

Shannon Popkin (09:40) And so in that in those moments where you couldn’t look at James with an ounce of mercy, you can even look at him. You were both ashamed and ⁓ fearful and undone and grieving. But you were also like had this this disgust, this judgy disgust for him. Jesus never did that ever like to the bitter end. He did not succumb to this.

contemptuous disgust, even though he is so far above us in every way. And he could say, I never have, I never would, I never could to all of us, to all of those people gathered at his cross, sneering at him, he could have said that, because he hadn’t ever done anything like this. But instead, he chose mercy. That’s why he’s allowing himself to die on the cross. And so in those moments that you couldn’t, Jesus did, he had mercy for James when you couldn’t have mercy for James.

Sandra Currie (10:25) Okay.

Shannon Popkin (10:41) He had an open heart of compassion and empathy for James, even when you couldn’t. and I think that his in his strength alone, were you able to look at yourself and say, All right, I have contributed some to the brokenness Lord Jesus, would you also deal with me? And what you just said to Sandra, I think is the key component of reconciliation.

The fact that you too were willing to utterly humble yourself and say, I’ve contributed like I, I’ve gone through some reconciliation with people too. And that is the hardest thing when you are the one who feels wrong, wronged to say, well, well, I too.

you that’s exactly the opposite of what Simon was saying, calling her that sort and and seeing it’s like, you’re putting yourself I’m the same sort. I too have failed in this marriage. And how can I humble myself? What can I and I mean, there is nothing more powerful than humility with you. And I know I’m going on and on about this. But with Jesus on that cross, with Jesus dying there on that cross, this is the most extravagant display of humility the world has ever known, because he

did nothing wrong. He did nothing wrong. Any one of us if we’re on that cross, we deserve we deserve to die for our sin. That’s Jesus or God said from the beginning you eat of this fruit, you sin, you suffer you sin, you suffer. It’s a it’s an immediate cause and effect consequence and the consequence for sin is death. He told Adam and Eve that before they eat of the fruit. ⁓ And so for any us we deserve death, Jesus didn’t. And ⁓ and so

He’s displaying humility and he living in you gives you that supernatural power to be humble even in a situation where you have been desperately wronged. So talk to us about that humility. How did God produce that in you? And what did it do for your marriage?

Sandra Currie (12:45) Well, so James and I were apart for three weeks and he would come and see the kids when I, because I was teaching Zoom one person again, so he’d come and see the kids. We sort of crossed paths. It started in James and I had never seen him be humble. I had never seen him be so, I mean, I’d never seen the man cry like this. And, but again, being apart for three weeks, had,

We had conversed a little bit, but it started with James and he had sent me a text message and he asked me, now we had actually had a few conversations with our pastor, which is sort of a, God weaved all that together as well. so the fact that he was even having this conversation with our pastor, I thought was huge as well. But he had sent me a text and he said, can I pray for you? Can I pray for us? I had never prayed with this man.

ever.

Shannon Popkin (13:48) And was he a believer before you got married? Were you both believers?

Sandra Currie (13:49) Yes, we were going to

church. I was very actively involved in church, more than he was, but we would go to church. I think for the longest time he was going through the motions, but not really. And a lot of that had come out later. But when he had sent me that text message, I thought,

Who is this man? What? Okay. Yes. And so absolutely I said yes. And so when he sent me this text prayer, my heart started to soften a little bit. And so I texted him a prayer back and he had said he was surprised that I texted him back a prayer because again, I was so angry. And so that’s really honestly how I started to notice some changes in him and

So we decided to, yeah, go ahead.

Shannon Popkin (14:46) Can I interject again? I’m sorry.

Can I interject? I think that is really key right there, Sandra, because I’ve seen some women who, when their husbands do, they are broken and they are apologetic and they’re wanting to change. The wife is like, nope, you had your chance. And so the fact that you opened the door, you were seeing, it’s like all the things you always dreamed of were happening. And this is God doing this work in him.

⁓ And I mean, God never would have ordained an affair, but an affair. But he does allow things that that crush us ⁓ and that are he works all things together for good. And we don’t understand. We can’t get a peek behind that curtain. But this was God doing a great work in James, you know, humbling him. You’d never seen him humble before. I mean, that is an amazing work of Jesus. We can’t be humble apart from his work.

in us. Like that is just we cannot manufacture humility. We are born proud. We are just born with like self independence and self sufficiency and like I can do this and I am you know selfishness all of that. We’re born…

Sandra Currie (15:54) I’ll be blessed.

And that’s how being proud is also on top

of being judgmental.

Shannon Popkin (16:09) It’s so true. That’s why I think it’s so key that you not only like

Well, I think it’s so key that you responded to his humility with humility yourself for you to receive that prayer by text and for you to even look at that and say, wow, this is a good thing. I know women who would say, ⁓ no, no, no, no, you’re not going to use that on me. You know, like hold their heart, hold it over their husband and respond with contempt even when he’s changing. so reconciliation requires a lot of humility.

on the part of the person being asked to forgive. So much humility and I’m so proud of you. I’m so proud of you that you responded with that text. So I just had to say that.

Sandra Currie (16:55) He had, yeah, well, he

had also ⁓ shared more very intimate details of the affair in front of our pastor, which also was another green flag for me as well. so, ⁓

Shannon Popkin (17:11) Yeah, that’s humility, right?

It’s disclosing. So what we’re looking for in these situations, and I think people listening are trying to sort out, know, if you’re in a situation and you’ve found this podcast and you’re like, how do I know? Humility, that is just the number one thing. Is he broken? Is he humble? Does he actually confess the sin? You know, in the story of Judas, when Judas betrayed Jesus, it says that he… ⁓

The word used for his ⁓ response when he went to the chief priests and said, here, take this money back. He was grieved, but not in a broken sorrow over his sin. He was grieved over the consequences. And there is a huge difference. And yeah, and Judas hung himself. ⁓ That was that was not a display of humility. It was just a display of this is what idolatry does. He had so elevated money. It was his idol.

Sandra Currie (17:53) There is a huge difference, yeah.

Shannon Popkin (18:09) James so elevated lust, it was his idol. ⁓ We have so elevated anything that we put, give power over us. And like we said last time, our idols always hurt us. Your idols will hurt you. ⁓ They will make you hurt you. And that’s what happened to Judas. That’s what happened to James. But what we see in James is something supernatural, a true humility.

You see humility in disclosing, in change of, know, a repentance always involves change, a willingness, a humility of like, I’m going to try something new. I mean, it’s hard to say, can I pray for you when you’ve never done that before? It’s intimidating, especially as a husband who knows he has just committed an affair, you know? And so to try to lead his wife spiritually like that, that’s a huge step right now. And if you had shut him down in that moment, I think

Sandra Currie (18:48) Yeah.

It was.

Shannon Popkin (19:06) the story could have gone differently and so so proud of you. And so self disclosing in the moment continue.

Sandra Currie (19:11) Thank you,

Shannon. ⁓ Okay, so there was three weeks of this. Well, I wouldn’t say three. Three weeks we were apart. So three weeks we were separated. And we have gone on an annual camping trip for, I don’t even know how long. It’s always over my birthday. It’s been, I don’t even know at that time. It was like eight years or whatever. And the kids had started asking me, are we still going? Are we still going? And I just thought, I don’t…

want to give up this trip either. I haven’t spent any time with him. What are we going to do? And so we have a camper. So I told him, said, we’re still going to

Shannon Popkin (19:50) Can you give us the timeline again? Like I remember you talking about the last camping trip. How much where are we in the timeline?

Sandra Currie (19:57) Okay, so that

camping trip was, so I found out on July 12th of 2020. So that was a Sunday. So we were camping that weekend. So that Friday, Saturday, Sunday. So now three weeks later, we’re going on another camping trip in August. So this was, we always go over my birthday, which is August 11th. Send gifts to, no. Yes, yes.

Shannon Popkin (20:20) Okay, so it’s just really, really fresh and they’re wondering are we going on this next campaign trip? I

get it now, okay.

Sandra Currie (20:26) and they love this

trip. ⁓ We all love this trip. ⁓

So I wasn’t gonna take that trip away from them. And so I told James, I said, you can sleep on the couch. Our camper wasn’t huge, but we did have a couch. And so then I was gonna have my son sleep in the bed with me and we have a bigger camper now, praise Jesus, four kids, bigger camper. But at the time they were still somewhat little. we got there and we had…

done all the things, we had packed the camper. again, during this three weeks, we were sort of talking to each other. And, ⁓ so now we’re up camping and we get there and I had barely even let him touch me even at this point. And so I just remember as we were trying to figure out where everyone was gonna sleep, I just remember looking at him going, and I said to him,

I want to sleep with my husband, not sexually, but I want to sleep in the same bed with my husband. so, Andrew then went back and slept on the couch and we actually, was one of the first times we had actually really embraced. And so, we ended up actually staying up till two, three o’clock in the morning, having deeper conversations.

And we, on that trip, we actually met with a mentor couple. Our church had coordinated a mentor couple that had been through an affair that lived in the general area. I mean, talk about a God wink right there. Like, okay, you’re gonna be here. I have a person here that’s also you can talk to. And so we spent a day with them and James actually asked her a lot of questions because…

Why is Sandra asking so many questions? I feel like if I tell her the truth, it’s going to hurt her even more. And because I wanted to know everything. I wanted to know everything. He didn’t understand why I wanted to know everything. that afternoon with that couple was also a huge learning opportunity for the both of us to just be mentored and poured into by another couple that had been through it.

Shannon Popkin (22:49) What did?

Yeah, what did she say? What was her response? Why?

Sandra Currie (22:53) Tell her. Tell her everything that she. So she had said, she said to him,

tell her everything that she’s asking because if it comes out later, it’s going to hurt more. Because if she asks and you lie, and then she looked at me and she said, Sandra, if you’re going to ask the question, be prepared to be hurt. Do you want to know enough to be hurt? And so she.

She talked to both of us and that was key because, and I still, it didn’t matter, I still wanted to know everything and I still asked, but that advice stuck in me because yes, I’m gonna ask, I’m gonna get hurt, but he’s going to tell me the truth.

Shannon Popkin (23:40) Well, and I think if we can offer that to our spouse, a place to be completely naked, right? Completely lay it out bare what we have done. We give them an opportunity to repent, right? Really into to drag that ugly sin into the middle of our bedroom. mean, that I just picture you guys in that camper.

you’re in the same bed and you’re talking. that ⁓ is so, ⁓ so much crying. But that is the kind of humility reconciliation requires. It’s just a breaking down. And when, I don’t know that every couple can handle that.

Sandra Currie (24:13) A lot of crying.

Shannon Popkin (24:29) ⁓ My husband and I have this agreement and like I said, not everyone can handle this, but we have this agreement that when we are tempted by someone else that, you know, maybe we have a thought about someone, like just we really enjoy the company of a friend or coworker. We disclose that to each other. And that, mean, just immediately, because when I like I have said this before, I ran into an old boyfriend.

We had little kids at the time. And I just like, it was like one of those first love, you know, situations where my heart was just like so warm to him and like seeing him again was like, my goodness, I couldn’t stop thinking about it. Yeah. And so, and I tried talking to a friend about it and I couldn’t, I just couldn’t stop thinking about him. And I didn’t want to think about him and I didn’t want those feelings. And so when I disclosed that to my husband, I just said, Hey, I ran into him and I, I don’t want to think about him, but I just want to tell you it

Sandra Currie (25:03) Yeah.

I heard something,

Yep.

Shannon Popkin (25:27) was gone. It was like, I

don’t want to think about him. I have you I’ve committed myself to you. And it was just like this beautiful, you know, I don’t know that I had even necessarily sinned because I wouldn’t call it less. was just like these butterflies, you know, that came back and I just you know, had these memories of young love, right? I don’t know if it was love, but it was definitely young butterflies. And so but being that safe place to one another and I know that’s completely different with a spouse who’s betrayed you.

Sandra Currie (25:40) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (25:57) to such depth but you did that for your husband you said I want to know the truth you gave him a place to answer he got this great advice he disclosed it all

And here you were not only opening your heart to him, but opening up to him physically. Like some women could not be in the same room with a man who… And a lot of that is just the superiority. It’s like this condescending disgust. Like, no, you are not coming anywhere near me. I’m not divorcing good judgment from… I think we have to express good judgment.

But we can so easily without realizing it step over into this condescending disgust toward this other sinner. ⁓ And what I see you doing is so humble, opening yourself, opening your bed to him and that camper. These are the seeds for reconciliation. So continue, tell us more about the camping trip.

Sandra Currie (27:00) Well, you

kind of make it sound like it was really easy. So I just want to make sure that everybody knows that it was not easy. But again, like you said, I had to be open and willing, but I was still so angry. listening, opening my heart a little bit more and more. And we did a big dance for a long time, two steps forward, five steps back. We really did. But and I call this his eyes changed moment.

Shannon Popkin (27:06) no, yeah.

Sandra Currie (27:30) And as I started to then look at him and I could see his eyes were changing and

That was so key to me to be able to open my heart up slowly to be able to let him back in because I just didn’t see the evil anymore in his eyes. I was seeing a man that I had never seen before. I was seeing the man that I originally fell in love with so long ago and he was unraveling, which I’m going.

Yes, he’s unraveling, but he was unraveling in a good way. And I was noticing in his eyes, Jesus coming in and the enemy leaving. And it’s so hard to explain. I was explaining this to a woman that I was working with, that I am, that I was working with, I was explaining this to a woman the other day that I’m working with. And she said, I get it. I understand. And…

She’s waiting for that moment for her husband’s eyes to change, but she can see it. so the moment, and it really was a moment where I finally was able to look at him and see this very predominant change. And that’s when I decided, okay, I’m gonna stay. And again, he was, he…

When I say he’s begging me, he was literally at one point on his hands and knees begging me in a public space, that’s a whole nother story, to stay. And so ⁓ that’s when I knew, okay, we’re gonna figure this out and we’re gonna stay. And at one point he even asked me, he’s like, you’re only staying with me because of the kids. And when I said to him, yes, he was a little shocked by that, but I was saying, yes.

I’m staying with you for the kids, but I’m not staying with you just for the kids. They’re a big part of it. They are a piece to consider. And as he started to realize, he didn’t want me to just stay because of the kids. And so when I said yes, I think I surprised him. there’s so much, there’s so many pieces to the puzzle as to why to stay that the kids are definitely a big part of it, but not the only part.

Shannon Popkin (30:02) Yeah. Tell me about that moment when his eyes changed. What were you talking about? Where were you? Can you paint that scene for us?

Sandra Currie (30:08) gosh, I don’t know. I really don’t know. ⁓ I do wonder if I journaled about it. and I did, I wrote, I poured my heart out into my journal and prayed. And so, and I do know I journaled about it, but it was, it probably wasn’t an instant moment, but I think as, here’s the thing. When he was,

Shannon Popkin (30:12) Okay, you just gradually, okay.

Sandra Currie (30:36) saying some of these things to our pastor, we were in masks, okay? So I couldn’t, I couldn’t, the only thing I saw was his eyes. And so it was a, it was a slower process of just watching him unravel and watching his eyes change that I started to, to notice. And then I noticed again and then I noticed again, but

Shannon Popkin (30:49) with his eyes, yeah.

Sandra Currie (31:06) because we were behind masks in that time so many times. Not when we were camping, because that’s why we could go camping, was because we were all in our individual little camping areas. But I do remember in that moment of him saying that to our pastor, and I still wasn’t really looking at him. I still had a hard time looking at him. But as I started to look at him, I started to notice the differences.

Shannon Popkin (31:38) You said earlier that God was also working in your heart and ways that you hadn’t been the wife that you wanted to be. Can you share some of the changes you made on your side of the marriage?

Sandra Currie (31:50) So we started going to Celebrate Recovery. And if you are unfamiliar what Celebrate Recovery is, if any of your listeners, it is a 12-step recovery program for all of the things that we as humans, if you are breathing, you qualify to go to Celebrate Recovery. So a lot of times people think it was just for alcoholics. One in four people are there for alcoholism and then everybody else is there for everything else.

And so as I, so we, he started to go, which was another green flag for me. Like he’s going, he’s realizing the things that he needed, why he fell into this pit in the first place, right? And so we started going together and that’s when I started to, they like to say, unpeel the onion, right? So unpeel my own onion.

and started to actually talk to other women who, again, this is a very humble place. You go to a place where everybody’s there for recovery, whether it’s codependency or sexual integrity issues or drugs and alcohol or anxiety and depression and eating disorder. mean, everything, everything that falls in a bucket, you can find at Celebrate Recovery. But to be in that place of, okay, and I didn’t first…

Start going to unpack myself. I started to go because I knew that I needed to find some sort of healing and I from this right because I knew I wanted to stay but how do I heal from the trail and so when I got into a Well, I take that back because I took me a year to get into a step study and that’s where you just kind of do a deeper dive But that first year of recovery

We really started to have a lot of conversations and we did have a counselor, but that’s not really where a lot of our recovery took place. the changes that I started to have to make were how much was I actually paying attention to James? How much was I mothering? I mean, I had four children. I had four children in six years, right? I wasn’t meeting his love language. I wasn’t, I…

I was not seeing him, I was not his cheerleader. And he was very, very career-orientated, which is also something that he really had to do a 180 about and realize, like, the Lord’s gonna always take care of us financially, but he was so, talk about money, right? So when he started to pull back on some of those things, I started to realize, okay, well, you are pouring into your career, but yet, I’m not at your job every day. I don’t see those things that you’re doing. But you wanted me to see

see those things even though I couldn’t see him. So I wasn’t cheering him on. I wasn’t his encourager. I wasn’t lifting him up. I wasn’t all of those things. And I will say, I do better at it, but I think it is a hard thing to do, right? Especially when you’re not necessarily in their career world. But I then became a little bit more in tune of those things. ⁓

Shannon Popkin (35:01) Yeah, I would say that’s one of the secret sauces of our marriage. I remember being at a, my husband was at a work, we got together with some other couples that he worked with, and the men. And the wives all wanted to go in this other room and talk, just among themselves. And I was like, I really want to be in with the men. Because these are the guys I hear about all the time. I want to get to know them. My heart was so divided. And so I went and joined the men. I’m like, this is so weird, but I love this part of your life.

Sandra Currie (35:30) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (35:31) and I wanna be in on it. And I know you’re just talking shop, but like now I can put the names with the faces and I had invested so much in being like his wife as, you know, someone who works. I still, you know, I try to really.

Sandra Currie (35:35) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (35:49) be invested in that even though I don’t he’s a data scientist I have no clue what he actually does but I love hearing about the people and about the interactions and ⁓ as much as I can follow and so and like just kind of walking that with him I think also when we think about intimacy like recognizing you are the only viable

outlet for those desires, right? You’re the only option he has to be a godly man. And so man, when we’re mommying everybody and even mommying him, right? That is just, that just, ⁓ that’s hard. ⁓ That just depletes ⁓ some really vital essential elements of marriage. And so I love

Sandra Currie (36:23) Yeah.

Well, we as moms get pulled in a million different

directions that sometimes our husband gets what’s left. And I think if you can shift that into no God, husband, kids. And I was not, it was not, that was not the order that I was in.

Shannon Popkin (36:47) Well, and it’s described as one flesh, like one flesh, you know, if he has a need you like if your hand if your right hand has a need, your left hand is not going to say not my problem. Right. One flesh means you’re in this together. And so and that is not the same as with our kids. Right. But then we are not saying that a wife is the cause of any infidelity like his sin is his sin. So catch us up then.

Sandra Currie (37:02) Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (37:17) You guys have humbled yourself. You have opened yourself to mentoring. ⁓ Did he still interact with this other woman at work? How did you deal with like getting past that?

Sandra Currie (37:33) So he actually ended up that was he met her at not his full time job. So again, he was very focused on making sure very worried about money. So he was at that time working three jobs. So he gave up two of those jobs. Thankfully, ⁓ the one job that he that he met her at, he was able to do on Zoom once COVID hit. But then he actually ended up quitting. So he cut off all ties from her every

every possible thing that he changed his phone number. He did all of the things to, and that was just, again, another green flag about how serious. Yeah. And now that I knew.

Shannon Popkin (38:14) due diligence, man. Yeah, that’s so important. There cannot

be. I mean, I, I think like Jesus says, cut off your arm if it, you know, I think quitting a job is a very viable response in a situation like this. And I know people argue I couldn’t we couldn’t like, how are we gonna make it? Well, how are you gonna make it if your marriage doesn’t? mean, like, this is just so important. So go ahead.

Sandra Currie (38:33) Right. Right. Well, and

now that I knew the whole truth, she had nothing over him anymore. So he was able to just cut all ties. And then we were able to just focus on ourselves, which was also huge. ⁓ yeah, so now we went on a… ⁓

He surprised me with a big trip for our anniversary and we hadn’t even kissed anything. I, anything. And so we had tried, we, we went on this.

Shannon Popkin (39:12) How much longer after that?

Sandra Currie (39:14) So our camping trip was in August.

Our anniversary is in October. So was about three months from July. Surprised me, he did amazing. He planned the whole thing, had lots of surprises and was very gentle about trying to reconnect again. And I was not the woman that had an easy time doing it. So he was very kind and very gentle.

in that way. so that was a little bit of a baby step process, but another, another green flag that he was, he was all in and was, was amazing about it. So, and.

Shannon Popkin (39:59) That’s so cool. What I hear on both parties is a compassion and empathy for one another, which are the fruits of humility, right? When we humble ourselves, it’s like, just want to contrast those. A judgy, contemptuous, disgusted person is like, I never have, I never would, I never could. Like, I am different than you, I am elevated. A humble person is like…

How have I, how can I make it easier for you? How can I watch for like, okay, you’re changing. I’m open to that. I’m receptive to that. ⁓ You still using good judgment, right? But.

Okay, if God is gonna do this work in you, I’m receptive to that. I’m not gonna rush it. I’m not going to just assume that everything is fixed in a moment. You know, it can be a gradual process, but it’s not slamming the door to reconciliation. And I’m so thankful that you guys have shown that compassion and empathy to each other. You’ve been…

You’ve humbled yourself, I know. maybe I do make it sound like it’s easier than it is. Like when I think about the ways that I have judged people and God has changed my heart to them, to me, does not feel like life at the beginning. It feels like death. feels like I, nothing in me wants to give you an ounce of, no, you are wrong and I am hurting and I am mad and I never have and I never have, you know, like all of those feelings. But here are some

Sandra Currie (41:10) Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (41:37) Let me just offer a couple things and see if they resonate with you and then we’ll close. So a couple of the things that have really been helpful for me is to pray in plural. And what I mean is instead of praying for God, you know, God to fix him and his problems, I pray in plural.

And I say, God, we both are broken. God, we both have brought our brokenness into this marriage. We both have hurt each other in different ways. Would you help both of us? so like this praying in plural, and I picture us both on our knees at the foot of the cross knowing that we’re both sinners. We both have offended a holy God and Jesus has died in our place. So praying in plural is one of those things. ⁓

you know, there’s this bearing with like recognizing this other person is a sinner too. And how can I, how can I show empathy? ⁓ Like empathy is like, it’s, ⁓ it’s making space for sinners, you know, like we can become so principled, so like righteous, righteous indignation, indignation that we don’t like we can just shut everybody out in our principled, ⁓ you know,

Sandra Currie (42:46) And pride

in our pride.

Shannon Popkin (42:48) perfect little, yeah

pride, it’s so much pride. so empathy is like, yeah, I I’m making space for their sin, for them to be a sinner that Jesus has reconciled. And then I think just that picture of Jesus on the cross in the face of everyone spitting at him, everyone mocking him, him praying that they would be forgiven. That does not mean that everyone will be forgiven.

You know, we aren’t universalists. We don’t believe that all people go to heaven. One day, you know what Jesus told the judges right before they condemned him to death? He said, you know, one day you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of God coming on the clouds of glory. And so what he’s basically saying is, yes, one day the tables will turn and you will see me as your judge. Yes, that day will come. ⁓ And so and that knowing that and that even though.

Sandra Currie (43:34) Yes.

Shannon Popkin (43:42) He is going to be the judge over these people. He still shows them mercy, hoping that he doesn’t have to condemn them to death. Like that’s what mercy is. Mercy is different than grace. Grace is, let’s see, how are they different? Mercy is not giving you the judgment that you deserve. Grace is giving you something that you haven’t earned. So mercy is like, yeah, you are wrong and you do deserve my judgment and my wrath and my, know, but I’m not giving that to you.

Sandra Currie (44:02) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (44:12) You know, and so if Jesus

Sandra Currie (44:13) .

Shannon Popkin (44:14) was this merciful, then how can we be merciful like him? We’re to be, Jesus said in his sermon ⁓ in Luke chapter seven, he said, be merciful like your father is merciful in heaven. he said, don’t judge. And then he said, be merciful. So like, here’s what you don’t do. Here’s what you do. Be merciful like your father in heaven.

Thank you so much for sharing your story with us. You’re so welcome.

Sandra Currie (44:36) Thank you for having me, Shannon.