Shannon Popkin (00:00) We have Kristin Couch joining us today on Live Like It’s True. Kristin is a pastor’s wife, the mom of four adult children, and she is a delighted grandmother also.

Her first book is titled It Began on Washington Street Tracing the Goodness of God Through All of Life. And we’re going to be talking about her most recent book, Deep Roots, Good Fruit, Seeing the Fruit of the Spirit Through Story and Scripture. So Kristin, welcome to Live Like It’s True.

Kristin Couch (00:29) Thank you for having me. I’m so happy to be here.

Shannon Popkin (00:32) You are such a beautiful storyteller. I love the way that you string words together and create thoughts and ideas, like just in an uplifting way.

Kristin Couch (00:41) thank you so much. think story is such a powerful tool that the Lord’s given us and I enjoy it.

Shannon Popkin (00:47) Yes, I agree. That’s really like this podcast is dedicated to the narratives, the stories of the Bible, because I think there’s something about stories that help us to not just be like this bystander looking in on, the truth,

from the inside, it looks different. And so we’re gonna be talking about a story today in the book of Acts. But first I wanna just ask you about your new book, Deep Roots, Good Fruit. So tell me a little bit about like what prompted you to write this book?

Kristin Couch (01:19) I had always wanted to write a book about the fruit of the spirit, but I wanted something for the everyday person who could read a story about the fruit.

in real time, real life with simple people and then lead into the scripture explaining that fruit and where it stems from. I love the idea

of people seeing stories that are in the mundane, in the ordinary. I think those are beautiful stories. My hope is in prayer is that people will dust off those Bibles and see who this Jesus the Christ is.

Shannon Popkin (01:46) Mm

yeah, that’s so good. And you are, like I said earlier, a beautiful storyteller. Like even the way that you tell the stories of the Bible in your book, You know, these are ancient texts and yet even in its original format, our Bible is told in a storytelling format.

And so the authors were not just chronicling events, even in acts. There’s some storytelling going on here in this text. And I think that’s really interesting. just the way that the author

he doesn’t run the ideas together. He keeps them kind of segmented out. He gives us little scenes that kind of build upon each other. So it’s, it’s it’s told in a storytelling fashion. And we know this is Luke writing acts, right? And so he has a purpose, but he’s telling definitely a storyteller. And so,

Kristin Couch (02:45) Yes.

Shannon Popkin (02:51) Like just thinking about the fruits of the spirit or fruit of the spirit. it’s one fruit, multiple characteristics of this one fruit. you know, we might think of these as all different fruits, but they’re just all different aspects of the way that we live when the spirit is empowering our life, right?

Kristin Couch (03:16) That is so true. that point, the love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self -control, as we grow in Christ and press into the Spirit more and allow Him to flood us, these things will all grow in time. Each one will. And that’s not to say that

we all have mature fruit right away these things happen in time but you see this in the life of Paul in this story that we’re going to be telling you see his fruit and how the Lord blossomed that through suffering.

Shannon Popkin (03:53) Yeah, yes, it’s so true. Yeah, so, but like sometimes I’ll think, well, I just don’t have that fruit of self -control, but I’ve got these others, you know, I’m a kind person or I’m generous or whatever. No, they actually all are part of the same fruit. And so there’s none of these characteristics that we can say, well, I’m just, that’s just not my personality, right? And I have heard people say, well, I’m just not a kind person. You know, I just have a more abrupt personality. Well, no, these are all,

characteristics of the same fruit that should be growing in our lives as we grow in Christ.

And so life apart from God in rebellion or rejection of God, like we don’t have any of these fruits in our lives. there’s the passage about how

apart from Christ, we can do nothing. like think of the fruit that is part of the vine. Like it’s him flowing through us that changes. Do you have any thoughts though about that, Kristen, before we dive into this story of like how is this change possible? Like it’s not a try harder, do more kind of thing. How does this fruit start growing in our lives? What’s the process? What have you learned?

Kristin Couch (05:04) Well, I love what you just spoke about

So to your point, I think some of us try. I’ve done this before you wake up. today I’m going to be patient and you act, you behave as though you can do this in your own strength. And guess what? I can be patient for a day or a short season possibly, but that is not the spirit.

fruit. I always say that humility is the soil for fruit bearing. So to be humble before the Lord is to say I can’t do this, you’re my King Jesus, I’m nothing. I’m walking in flesh and wickedness. Apart from you I can do nothing. So once you get to that hard humbling point then you are in the Word, you are praying, you are

Shannon Popkin (05:29) Mm.

Mm -hmm.

Kristin Couch (05:49) in weekly fellowship under the teaching of the Word and the Spirit, this quickens him and as you trust him and pray and walk in that, the fruit bearing is natural. This isn’t something you’re just, like a cloak you’re putting on every day. This is him, not us.

Shannon Popkin (06:02) Hmm.

Okay, that’s so good. It’s not like, I’m going to grunt and bear some fruit. No, this is his work in us. But I like how you put that we want to

have the soil of humility, and plant our roots deep in the truth, right? Of who God is and what what his fruit looks like, which is what this book is all about, right? and like you’re saying, like as we read his word, as we fellowship with him, there’s a humility in saying like, I can’t do this.

Kristin Couch (06:26) Right.

Shannon Popkin (06:40) I on my own, won’t do this and I need you day by day. I need you father to grow this in me.

Kristin Couch (06:48) let me just add, when we don’t, I wanna give your listeners encouragement because there are all times that we walk in pride and not humility, Don’t forget repentance. And repentance is an acknowledgement. I’m prideful, I’m sinning, dear Lord, please forgive me. And you turn and walk away from that. So for anyone walking in that right now, it…

Shannon Popkin (07:06) Mm.

Kristin Couch (07:11) All hope is not lost. You repent, you come back, and the Lord’s waiting for that, and fruit will grow.

Shannon Popkin (07:13) Right?

Yeah. And repentance is just a step in the opposite direction. It’s in the next moment, you can move in a different direction. We’re told to keep in step with the spirit. It’s a step by step by step process. And repentance is just a turning to rejoin him in that step by step process. So each of the chapters in Deep Roots,

Kristin Couch (07:29) That’s right.

Shannon Popkin (07:43) good fruit. Each of these chapters you’re looking at one of these fruits or one characteristic of the fruit And so we’re gonna we’re gonna look at just one of those characteristics which is kindness today. And so in each of your chapters I just love the way that you welcomed us in with a story from your own life. And you told a story about

how there was this woman who was super hospitable to you, you and your daughter and someone you had never met. Tell us about that.

Kristin Couch (08:16) Yes, so through my blog I had had a reader reach out to me and invite me to a conference in Wisconsin and so very unlike me to go and stay with someone I had never met. This isn’t usually how I roll but this Jill, her name is Jill, got to know her and kind, the kindest person. So

My husband could not leave our church at the time to come with me he needed to stay back. But he said, Kristen, take Lauren and the two of you go. We’ve been in a tough season. This is going to be lovely and go. we arrived at Jill’s home.

And we were met with unusual kindness from a woman we had never known. And she and her husband welcomed us in and they had a big pot of homemade soup and treated us like they had known us our whole life. And like I said, we were coming off a hard season and to feel welcomed like that. All I can tell you is it felt like Jesus was in the room and he was.

Shannon Popkin (09:21) Yeah, yeah, I think kindness is particularly helpful when we’re going through a storm, or particularly meaningful, I guess I should say. when it’s hard, when it hurts, when life is painful.

Kristin Couch (09:29) Thanks.

Shannon Popkin (09:38) this was a hard season for you and you were met with kindness. And so there’s this parallel that we see in Acts 28 where Paul is met with unusual kindness. That’s where you got that phrase from is Acts 28. So let’s just set up the story. Paul is on, on this ship headed for Rome to face trial.

about preaching the name of Jesus Christ. And so he is a prisoner on this ship and the captain does not listen to Paul. know, Paul advises something different, but he doesn’t listen and they full steam ahead or no steam, guess, at this point, full sails ahead, I guess. And so they run into a storm and it’s a terrible storm. like two weeks without seeing the sun. Am I right about that?

Kristin Couch (10:21) Thank

right? It was a Northeaster which it pretty much was like a very cold hurricane. This was no small thing.

Shannon Popkin (10:32) Yeah, and so

Okay, wow, so they are facing a hurricane and they’ve dumped all of the cargo in the ocean. They’re just trying to survive. And they eventually reach land and they struck this reef a little way from the shore. And at that point,

the soldiers on board were going to just kill all the prisoners. And the centurion on board showed mercy to Paul. didn’t want, because Paul was one of the prisoners, right? And he didn’t want Paul to be killed. so he said, no, just let’s let them, you know, if you can swim, go ahead and swim to shore. If you can’t hold on to something and float to shore. And so all of them.

make it and this is kind of related to an angel who visited Paul and told him like you know, don’t be afraid you don’t need to be afraid God is gonna spare it not only your life but all of the the people on this ship and so so here they are in this place called Malta and what was the name of or what was the meaning of Malta Kristen?

Kristin Couch (11:44) it was a place of refuge. And I love here that 276 men, including Paul, not one of them perished and some of them couldn’t even swim. you see, you back up and you know that Paul

loved the Roman Church. He knew that he was going to Rome and he believed what the angel said, you will make it. But isn’t it interesting what he had to go through to get to Rome? you know, these people on the island of Malta.

Shannon Popkin (12:15) Yeah.

Kristin Couch (12:21) showed unusual kindness, but they were called natives, which was actually considered barbarians because they didn’t all speak the Roman language. So these people, when these men washed up on shore, they didn’t know what they were going to be. I mean, imagine arriving and being terrified. You don’t know these people.

Shannon Popkin (12:31) Right.

Right. Yeah. Well,

and you don’t know, It’s like on both sides. They don’t know each other. They don’t speak probably the same language or I don’t know. Maybe there would be translation available.

Kristin Couch (12:49) No.

It never, I studied this and it never, at this point when they arrived, they didn’t know the language. There was never words spoken, until Paul met with Publius, who was a Roman and could speak. Before that, doesn’t say that there was conversation, but you see the acts of kindness.

Shannon Popkin (13:09) Thank

Interesting. So, so when you don’t know it’s a foreign person and you don’t know how well you’re going to be received, here’s a ship. Obviously they could tell they were prisoners.

they’re probably wondering like what kind of prisoners are these murderers? At one point we’re gonna hear them figure Paul probably was a murderer. And so there’s just a mistrust. here’s what I just wanna say as we read this text. like what we don’t know about people often causes us to be guarded, causes us to be unkind.

like I don’t know about them. I would rather be kind to someone who looks like me, who I feel like is a trustworthy, a safe place. But there’s a lot of feelings of unsafety I would imagine in this story. Yeah.

Kristin Couch (13:59) Absolutely, and you think about it if you picture yourself as one of the people the natives on the island and you see these prisoners coming to shore I Don’t know about you. Maybe this is a cut on me But my first thought is not going to be how can I help them? My first thought is to be how do I protect myself and my family?

Shannon Popkin (14:14) Exactly. Exactly.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. A floating prison, right? And so they’ve all, They’ve all been released into your neighborhood and they’re kind of coming toward you. So let’s go ahead and read Acts 28,

Kristin Couch (14:21) That’s right. That’s right.

Shannon Popkin (14:32) one through six in the ESV translation.

Kristin Couch (14:34) Sure.

Okay, After we were brought safely through, we then learned that the island was called Malta. The native people showed us unusual kindness, for they kindled a fire and welcomed us all, because it had begun to rain and was cold. When Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks and put them on the fire, a viper came out, because of the heat and fastened on his hand. When the native people saw the creature hanging from his hand,

They said to one another, no doubt this man is a murderer. Though he has escaped from the sea, justice has not allowed him to live. He, however, shook off the creature into the fire and suffered no harm. They were waiting for him to swell up or suddenly fall down dead. But when they had waited a long time and saw no misfortune come to him, they changed their minds and said that he was a god.

Shannon Popkin (15:32) Okay, so thinking of our original readers who probably don’t know the people of Malta, what would they have found interesting or astonishing about this story?

Kristin Couch (15:44) Well, I’m thinking these people first thought that Paul was out of favor with the gods. So right away, what I’m picking up on, they don’t know Jesus Christ. And then they see this whole thing with the snake. And then when he lives, then they are calling him a god.

Shannon Popkin (15:53) Okay.

Okay.

Kristin Couch (16:04) And so I just see God’s hand of providence over this whole thing. He’s giving, He’s setting up a testimony for Paul to share.

Shannon Popkin (16:14) Hmm.

Yeah. Yeah. He’s giving an opportunity for him and there’s no language like you said. And God is a show don’t tell sort of God. He often uses a story, something unfolding to show us who he is. And I don’t know, I was trying to picture like, do you think the snake was

It says it came out because of the heat. So was it like near the fire?

Kristin Couch (16:41) Yes,

well because it was so bitterly cold at this point, it was winter, snakes go into that hibernation mode and it probably blended in with the sticks that Paul was picking up. So he probably didn’t see it and when he picked it up what would happen is the fire, if he put it near the fire, it would have started to warm the snake like the sun and then it woke up and latched and bit.

Shannon Popkin (16:54) Okay.

Got it, okay, that makes more sense to me now. And so the people are expecting him, like what would the natural occurrence would be? you just got bit by a viper, you’re gonna die. And that doesn’t happen, you know? He shakes the snake off into the fire and they’re…

they’re kind of astonished here. Clearly, yeah, they don’t know God. They don’t know Paul. They’re superstitious, right? They believe in like maybe the God of the sea And yet what they…

Kristin Couch (17:35) Yes.

Shannon Popkin (17:42) See defies all of that, defies their superstition.

Kristin Couch (17:46) Absolutely,

What is so to me so interesting and it shouldn’t be surprising but so interesting that God’s kindness Has gone before Paul to bring him here, but this is the funny part if you’re reading this and you don’t know

understand fully the God of the Bible. Things don’t look particularly kind right now. I mean this poor man has been beaten, he’s been thrown on a ship as a prisoner for preaching truth, he has been shipwrecked, he’s had people not listen to him, he’s had a guard that has wanted to kill him, he lands here. Now he’s cold and wet and he’s helping gather sticks and he gets bitten. And from from the human side you’re thinking

Lord, this is one of your arguably strongest followers. What are you doing to him? But it’s the kindness of God. He’s getting him to Rome to preach the gospel. But the way I see it, Shannon, this little island, they didn’t know about Jesus yet. And God, how kind to preserve Paul and allow him to share with these natives.

Shannon Popkin (18:40) Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, God kind of blew them on on shore, right? Blew them in this direction. This was not on the agenda and God brought them there. And I’m sure it did not feel kind as the ship is breaking up and they’re throwing over the cargo and you know, they’re talking about killing the prisoners. I’m sure it didn’t feel like, wow, God has been so good to us. Let’s sing another praise song. Right?

Kristin Couch (19:04) Absolutely.

You know

how you feel if you’ve ever been in snow or icy rain when your clothes get wet. How miserable is that? This is what they’re in right now.

Shannon Popkin (19:34) Yeah.

yeah, I have been cold and wet before and it’s an awful feeling, know, like chilled to the bone. We live in Michigan, so we have a lot of cold, wet precipitation kinds of days. And, you know, let’s back up though and talk about their this unusual kindness, as these prisoners and, other other soldiers and.

Kristin Couch (19:39) Thank

Yes.

Shannon Popkin (19:59) workers from the ship are approaching this island of Malta. They’re met with this unusual kindness like a fire is kindled, they’re welcomed. Why are people who don’t know God kind? Like is this the fruit of the spirit? You know, how do we differentiate this sort of kindness and what we’re called to?

Kristin Couch (20:18) Sure.

People can be kind who aren’t Christians. I’m getting from this though is that this little island, Malta, meaning a place of refuge, I think it’s the kindness of God that prepared these people to be kind to

the Lord’s favorite servant, Paul. And these people clearly did not have the fruit of the Spirit, but the Lord prompted them to be kind. And I’ve got to think Shannon too, there were 275 prisoners alongside Paul who had a chance now to be the recipients of kindness and to see Paul survive the kindness of God.

I can’t help but think the Lord’s kindness went before them. They were able to see the fruit of Paul, the Holy Spirit in Paul, and just the way the Lord took care of him. Because these prisoners, if you think about it, Paul was the one that warned them, a storm is coming. We shouldn’t go this way. We shouldn’t go this way. They didn’t listen to him. So you have Paul, a tent maker, telling the ship’s captain what to do, right?

Shannon Popkin (21:09) Hmm.

Yeah, right.

Right,

right.

Kristin Couch (21:32) but the

Lord’s favor and kindness was with him. And have you ever been around someone kind and it’s contagious? Do you know what I mean? Like you see the Holy Spirit and it quickens something in you. so no, these, these people in Malta did not have the fruit of the spirit, but the fruit was in Paul and the kindness of God flooded that island.

Shannon Popkin (21:35) Mm.

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. I do.

Mm.

there’s a verse that says the heart of the king is in the hand of God he turns the king’s heart in whichever direction he chooses, you know, like the course of a river. God’s the one who sets all of these things. And God does provide for us through the kindness of other people. And, you know, maybe someone who has never been kind before.

Kristin Couch (21:59) Yes.

Shannon Popkin (22:19) God stirs that in them as provision for us. I think he cares for his people that way, you know? And I’ve even experienced that. I was gonna tell you about a time we were traveling and so kind of like, you your story with your daughter only, we were in a foreign country. We were in Costa Rica. We were going for a vacation and we had never…

I don’t know, there’s just a lot of different experiences there that we hadn’t encountered before. One of them was just the rental car that we had. wasn’t it. The air conditioning system was different. so like when you put on the button to defrost, it wasn’t working. And so we landed in San Jose and we were traveling toward the coast, which so we were descending.

And our car was absolutely fogging up and we could not see and we could not get it to clear. And so we tried to pull off the road and like these roads are really super narrow and there are these ditches on the side of the road where the rain kind of runs off. And so you have to be really careful to stay on the road, know, to, you know, it’s just not, it’s not safe. so we pulled off at one point and it’s getting dark. We pulled off it off the side of the road.

Kristin Couch (23:24) Yes.

Shannon Popkin (23:31) there was just this path off the side of the road, not really a road, but we were just trying to see if we could get the fog cleared up because literally my husband could not see to drive. And as we pull off, there are these men, these armed men who start coming toward the car and we’re like.

no, no, no, no, I think we’ve gone the wrong way here. You know, they’ve got their rifles and stuff. And so we’re like, OK, trying to back up like we’re going now. And so we’re just praying like, God, we do not know what to do. We cannot see there’s oncoming traffic. the fog would not go away. And so finally, there’s this gas station off the side of the road. And it was like,

Kristin Couch (23:49) Yes.

Shannon Popkin (24:11) this moment where it’s all lit up in the darkness. We’re like, thank you. Thank goodness somewhere that we can safely stop. And but even there we could not figure out we’d been trying to work on it. And this man came out of the gas station and came over to just talk with us. And we didn’t know Spanish. Our daughter knows she’s Spanish minor. So she is trying to explain like, well, our car is fogging up. And he said, I know what to do.

Kristin Couch (24:12) you

Shannon Popkin (24:38) So he gives us these instructions that would make, made no sense to us. Like, I think it was like, turn on the heat for five minutes and then stop and then turn on the air conditioning. I don’t know, something like that. It was, it was just, it was like counterintuitive to what we would have done, but it worked. Like for, it worked. All of the, you know, the,

Kristin Couch (24:56) Thank you.

Shannon Popkin (24:59) windshield cleared and we could see and so and we didn’t even know how to pay him we had all this loose change and we didn’t know the money so we just kind of gave him this scoop of money we’re like thank you so much we don’t know if we gave him a hundred dollars or fifty cents but it was so but but unusual kindness like for this guy he didn’t know we were gonna pay him and i think god does provide through other people that we encounter

Kristin Couch (25:07) Thank you.

Shannon Popkin (25:22) He gives them the resources or the wisdom or, you know, he puts people in our path. He provides for us that way, people who may or may not know the Lord. And yet, and so then differentiated with Paul’s kindness, which we’re gonna see here in the next section. This is the fruit of the Spirit. So let me read verses seven through 10 here in Acts 28.

Now in the neighborhood of that place, which I think that’s so quaint, you know, he’s just in the neighborhood on Malta, in the neighborhood of that place where lands belonged to the chief man of the island named Publius, who received us and entertained us hospitably for three days. my goodness, how nice of him, right? It happened that the father of Publius lay sick with fever and dysentery. Paul visited him and prayed and putting his hands on him, healed him.

And when this had taken place, the rest of the people on the island who had diseases also came and were cured. They also honored us greatly. And when we were about to sail, they put on board whatever we needed. So here’s a man. And now how did you know that he is from Rome or has that Roman descent?

Kristin Couch (26:29) Thank

from church history and so he was favorable to Paul but when you think that he I was laughing when I thought of this he it says he received us and entertained us hospitably for three days there is no reason not to think that he took all 276 of them can you imagine all of a sudden 276 people and he did that and

Shannon Popkin (26:41) Okay.

The criminals, right? The criminals. Right?

Kristin Couch (27:08) But this is another act, the kindness on his part in receiving them. Look how it came back to Publius because Paul healed his poor father who was very, very ill. And then what would that do? There’s always more to it. Paul prayed and healed him. And I just can’t help but think that for those three months that Paul ended up being there, the gospel’s being shared.

Shannon Popkin (27:20) Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

Kristin Couch (27:38) Lord is using all of this hardship and why do I often forget that in my own life? It’s easy to see here, but when I’m going through things, it’s easy to feel forgotten. Or like, where are you Lord? He is always working and he’s always good and all it sparkles through our suffering and that’s why I just love this so much.

Shannon Popkin (27:44) Yeah.

for sure.

I do too. I wonder if when the people of Malta were thinking that Paul was a god, I wonder if that then influenced this man Publius to want to receive the god, right? And for the sake of, you don’t know, and God can even use that, And use the kindness of the man in charge, like this is…

Kristin Couch (28:12) Hmm.

Shannon Popkin (28:29) this would be really rare. Usually what you have is someone in power who feels entitled and feels like they can, you know, demand things of people and order them around, right? And they use their position and their power for their advantage. But he’s kind of doing the opposite, which is what we see in our Lord Jesus, like his way, his way of greatness, the greatest among you is the servant of all. And so here Publius, maybe, maybe without even knowing the Lord yet, maybe it’s

Kristin Couch (28:51) Yes.

Shannon Popkin (28:56) because he thinks this man who’s landed on his island is a God, whatever reason, received us, maybe all 276 of us, and entertained us for three days hospitably. Like they rolled out the red carpet. think about these prisoners who’ve been traveling with Paul.

Kristin Couch (29:05) What?

Shannon Popkin (29:16) man, I like traveling with this guy, right? Look what happens when he’s with us. Do you think they were surprised?

Kristin Couch (29:18) Yes.

I think they were probably surprised to survive this. And if it was me, I would be thinking, Paul was right. This storm was gonna be bad. But Paul also probably told them, an angel has told me.

Shannon Popkin (29:31) Yes.

Yep.

Kristin Couch (29:36) You are going to Rome. No one’s going to lose their life. So if I’m one of those people, what an opportunity to come to faith in Jesus. All these things are coming to pass and they know that Malta means place of refuge. And isn’t it beautiful that God was their refuge in this place of refuge and everyone can see it. can see his God is all it is Paul’s refuge and

Shannon Popkin (29:57) Yes, God is there. Yes, God is the refuge. Yeah.

Kristin Couch (30:04) I just, I want to know when I get to heaven someday how many people put their faith in Christ because of this shipwreck and the kindness they’ve

Shannon Popkin (30:11) This story, yes.

Yeah, and I mean, even seeing that God is a refuge, that tells you that storms are present. We don’t need a refuge if there’s no storm, right? And so our God does not save us from all the storms. He doesn’t save us from shipwreck. He doesn’t save us from being thrown in prison. Obviously, Paul.

Kristin Couch (30:24) That is right.

Shannon Popkin (30:36) And there are Christians all over the world who are imprisoned for their faith. God doesn’t save us from everything hard, but He is our refuge. so, man, these prisoners, it is to their advantage that they’re with a man who has refuge in God and they’re coming to know Him.

happening. But I also think it’s interesting that, you know, supposedly he’s a God and maybe they haven’t been able to communicate. And so Paul hasn’t been able to say like, no, no, no, I’m not a God. But

Look what he does when he comes to the sick father. He visits him and he prays. he puts his hands on him. He heals him. And I I was thinking this on my first read, like, is he even sharing the gospel here?

Makes a lot more sense now that you’ve said, they don’t share a language, but this prayer, it invites the kindness of God, right, to flow through Paul to not only this father, but these other sick people.

Kristin Couch (31:28) Yes.

And my thought is, Publius probably spoke both languages if he’s living there. So couldn’t he not have trained?

Shannon Popkin (31:37) Yeah, right, yeah.

Kristin Couch (31:40) I’m going beyond the text here, but it makes sense to me. that

Shannon Popkin (31:40) Yes, I imagine so. Yeah,

Kristin Couch (31:45) that could have happened. to your point, kindness goes across all language barriers, doesn’t it? Like when you are physically kind to someone that speaks without without words.

Shannon Popkin (31:52) It does.

Yeah, but I just want to follow that through and say, I think that our kindness paired with words about Jesus, that is important to pair those when we think of evangelism. think in our generation, when I grew up as a teenager, our church would go out and evangelize. You know, we had this Thursday night program and we visited the people who had visited our church and we shared the gospel with them. We had this whole discipleship evangelism program.

Kristin Couch (32:07) always.

Shannon Popkin (32:24) And we were really good at talking about Jesus and sharing the good news with people. We weren’t really that concerned though about people having clean water on the other side of the world. That was not my generation. I didn’t grow up with that. And you and I are about the same age, Kristen, so maybe you can relate to this. My kids grew up in a generation where they’re much more concerned about the kindness, like extending kindness to people and a lot less

Kristin Couch (32:41) Yes.

Shannon Popkin (32:52) comfortable with speaking the words about Jesus, with sharing the truth of the gospel through language. Have you experienced that too with, you know, just the generation gaps?

Kristin Couch (33:04) absolutely. And as a pastor’s wife, I see this all the time. And I always go back to no matter how kind you are to someone as we should be, that kindness does not explain that each one of us are lost in deep sin and that we need to repent and come to Christ for salvation. mean, that you can’t pick up.

that without words. You just can’t, right? And so both are needed. I think kindness probably softens the heart, tenderizes it to get ready to hear the truth of the gospel. But I love that you brought that up, that it’s not one or the other, it’s both. And people have to hear the truth of the Bible.

Shannon Popkin (33:30) Exactly. You can’t. No, you can’t. You need

Mmm.

Yeah, it’s so true.

Yes.

Mm -hmm.

Kristin Couch (33:56) and the truth of their sin in order to respond to God.

Shannon Popkin (34:00) Yes.

Have you ever read the book, Gospel Fluency? Okay, I just led a book club in my house this summer and we read through that book and he tells the story about this woman who was sharing with him about being kind to neighbors and she was sharing about how she and her husband have been kind and they had asked her

Kristin Couch (34:04) I have not.

Shannon Popkin (34:22) Like, why are you so kind? And she said, well, kindness isn’t hard. You know, I just choose it. And he challenged her and he’s like, and then what did you say? You know, what else did you tell them? And she’s like, no, just, I just told them, you know, kindness isn’t that hard. You know, you just have to choose to be kind. And he said, well, I hope next time you’ll tell them the reason that you’re kind and the reason that you have this fruit of God’s spirit living in your life. This isn’t you. You can’t be kind on your own. can’t.

possibly do all that you should or be all that you should without the power of God. And so he said, how are your neighbors? and then he told this other story about this man who came to faith and told his boss about it. And his boss said, I’m a believer too. And he’s like, you are? He said, you’re the reason that I didn’t think I needed to be saved. And his boss was like, what? Why would you say that? I’ve lived like a really righteous life,

in your presence and the guy was like, yeah, I thought if he can do it, I can do it too. I didn’t realize I needed. It’s like, wow, yes, people need to know the source of our kindness and they need to know that there is a way to repent and to turn and to have Jesus save us from our sins. so, mean, Paul’s the one who tells us that over and over in his gospel. So I have no doubt that he did share this truth.

with the people of Malta and it affected them. Just at the end, what’s surprising about their sendoff there, Kristin, from Malta.

Kristin Couch (35:56) Well, look at how they were honored. And it says they honored us greatly. They put on board whatever they needed. these are probably not a

island people that have a lot of things or lot of wealth, but they just graciously gave whatever they needed. And I see the kindness of God again, showing Paul, I’m getting you to Rome. I’m taking care of you and you are going to be tended and cared for.

Shannon Popkin (36:23) Yeah.

Yeah, and I don’t know how did this ship show up? Like God is really arranging all of these details to do as he promised. So sometimes we like to talk about how these stories correct the false narratives of the world. Are there any that come to mind, Kristen, as you think about the story?

Kristin Couch (36:33) everything.

There are so

many, but the biggest one I thought of was the false narrative that if I obey God and love him most and strive to please him, my life is gonna be smooth sailing.

He does not promise that. Now what does he promise? He’s our refuge. He’s going before us. But let’s be real here. Paul was going to Rome to share the gospel and encourage believers and he was also going to die. Nero chopped his head off. This is where he knew what was coming. Is God any less kind or good? No, no. He is there and

Shannon Popkin (37:03) Yeah.

Yeah, no.

Kristin Couch (37:24) I just think in our world, I don’t have to tell you this, but you can turn on the radio or whatever to hear people just saying, give your life to Jesus, everything will get better. Well, your soul will be tended and cared for. You’re going to suffer like Paul, if you’re surrendered to God.

Shannon Popkin (37:34) Mm.

It’s true, yes. And the sooner we anticipate that, I think the better. But I also wanna follow up and say God’s promises for us are legitimate. It’s just we have to extend the timeline. Like let’s not be too quick to say God hasn’t kept his promises because we don’t know the end of the story yet. So let’s wait until we’re in that new creation.

And we’re experiencing all of God’s kindness there. And then that’s when we will know just how kind and good and faithful God has been, right?

Kristin Couch (38:18) Yes.

Shannon Popkin (38:19) So any last words, Kristin, about how we can live like this story is true.

Kristin Couch (38:23) Absolutely, whatever suffering you’re experiencing or I’m experiencing today, God is always working and he’s always good and kind.

That has helped me get through dark seasons because my responsibility is to stay tethered to Christ, to stay with Him, and to suffer well, just like the apostle Paul did. You think of Him, just remember Him.

shipwrecked on this island. What is he doing when these people are kind to him? He’s gathering sticks. He’s about the work of the Lord. He’s not feeling sorry for himself in the corner like I so often do. So if I remember the faithfulness of Paul, the overarching theme though is that

Shannon Popkin (38:57) Yeah. Right.

Great.

Kristin Couch (39:10) God is our refuge. He’s always working. He’s always good. Stay tethered to him in the word and prayer and a body of believers and just watch, watch the fruit grow in your life.

Shannon Popkin (39:24) that’s really good. I love that you said, God is always working and he’s always good and kind, right? like that’s what we cannot see is the ways that God is working. So that requires a little bit of faith, but how can we live like it’s true that God is working even when we can’t see and that God is good and kind, even when it feels like shipwreck. So that’s, yeah, that’s such a good word.

Thank you so much for joining us for this conversation, Kristin. Tell us where can people find your book and find your writing?

Kristin Couch (39:58) You can find it wherever books are sold. Amazon, The Good Book Company, Barnes and Noble, all of those. And I blog weekly at The Palest Inc., which is the -palest -inc .com. And you will find weekly ratings there and articles and whatever. But you have been so kind. You have been unusually kind today to have me. I’ve really, really enjoyed this. And I hope your listeners are able just to dig into their Bibles.

Shannon Popkin (40:19) Aww.

Kristin Couch (40:27) Continue to listen to your podcast. wonderful.

Shannon Popkin (40:31) you’re so sweet. So do pick up a copy of Kristen’s book. I’m going to say the title again. Deep Roots, Good Fruit, Seeing the Fruit of the Spirit Through Story and Scripture.