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Gabe Hartfield

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Takeaways

• Using stories allows for a more approachable way to convey messages.
• Effective storytelling can help make a point without creating defensiveness.
• Crafting stories requires precision and clarity in details.
• Digression as a storytelling technique
• Competing narratives in society and the better Christian story that must be told
• Stories can slow down the flow of ideas for better understanding.
• Practicing storytelling in everyday conversations builds skills for larger audiences

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Episode Chapters

Shannon Popkin (00:00)
Gabe Hartfield, welcome back to Live Like It’s True.

Gabe (00:03)
Hey, good to be with you.

Shannon Popkin (00:04)
Thank you so much for returning. Last time we were talking about literature of the Bible, story in the Bible, how God uses story to communicate with us. And now we’re gonna turn the conversation and talk about how we as communicators can use story for the sake of our audiences. I’m so excited about this conversation. Let me just introduce you to our audience though. Gabe Hartfield, you’ve been the Young Adults Pastor at Crossroads Bible Church, my church for the past.

three years. My daughter has been in your group, which she and her friend Gabby, I hope it’s okay for me to say Lindsay and Gabby, kind of shortened the name. used to be post college young adults and they shortened it, their claim to fame is they shortened it to the post. And that just kind of took, right?

Gabe (00:48)
Yep, no, I wasn’t sure who was the one who came up with it post -college young adults, was quite a, you know, think it’s a mouthful And so I think it was very good and appropriate that somebody figured out a shortened version.

Shannon Popkin (00:56)
I’m out.

A shortened way. Well, and I love that our church has two groups. We have the walk, which is college students or college aged, and then the the post. Because they are transitioning so much in that. I remember Lindsay is a tax accountant and she was like, I just can’t stay up like the kids. They want to stay up so late. I got to go to work in the morning. And so there are just these

transitions happening at that stage of life

Gabe (01:30)
It’s a much different season of life I also find that there’s a lot of people that are out of college that are seeking community in that way. yeah.

Shannon Popkin (01:37)
Yeah, yeah. No, and it’s been so great to have you on staff at Crossroads. Okay, these guys love you. Your group, they just absolutely love you. I remember when I was just asking some of our young adults, hey, who, you know, I led this group called Teach Equip, a group of women training them to teach the Bible. And so I had asked several, we had several young adult women in the group and.

asked them, asked my daughter, asked around, and everybody was saying, you gotta have Gabe come as a guest teacher for the teaching group, and we did, and we loved having you there. So you are a seminary grad also from the Grand Rapids Theological Seminary. We were swapping stories about my friend Mike Whitmer was one of your professors. Mike has been a guest here on the podcast too. Yeah.

And you’re looking forward to where God’s going to lead you next. We’re not sure, correct?

Gabe (02:32)
Yep, yeah, because had a residency or a crossroads and got an extension till this December, I’m looking for what’s next if that’s working at a church here in Grand Rapids or what. So yeah, just looking to figure that out and since God’s leading.

Shannon Popkin (02:48)
Well, one of the people who recommended you as a guest teacher for our Teach Equip group was Keoni Hughes, who is a pastor here in the Grand Rapids area. He was a seminary friend of yours and just said, Gabe is one of the most gifted communicators I know, which is saying something, because Keoni is quite a gifted communicator too. And so this is just your thing. You love communication and using

the gifts that God has given us to not just, craft a sermon that is precise and has all of the elements or whatever, but sermons that actually move people, impact people, right? Is that kind of the passion behind, all of the work that you’ve done?

Gabe (03:32)
Yeah, I learned very early on that stories can have different functions. Like, so I had two great storytellers in my life, there was my dad and my grandpa, and they both told stories, but for different reasons. So, yeah, my dad told a story, it always had a point to it. Like if there is

something going on, if we’re misbehaving or if we were doing something, a story would come out and he’d tell us and we’d realize, he’s telling us something, like there’s something behind this story. My grandpa, on the other hand, whenever he told the story, there was virtually no point except to get people to laugh. And I also realized that’s a function, that it’s very disarming and it makes you very approachable.

Shannon Popkin (04:14)
Yeah.

Gabe (04:19)
And so stories can have different functions. so thinking about when we’re preaching, like what is the function of this story that I’m telling?

Shannon Popkin (04:30)
Yeah, that’s good. When my son was little, Cade I’m talking about, he was just super naughty. And so I started coming up with these Sammy stories and Sammy had an older brother and an older sister and he would do some of the same naughty things that Cade had done. I mean, anytime I would tell a Sammy story, he would just like be mesmerized like, you know, he and I definitely had, I was like your dad, you know, I definitely had a teaching.

mindset as I’m telling this story, want him to, there’s something about stories that help us. They’re not as in your face. You know, Jesus often used stories that way. They’re not as provocative or as maybe argumentative or confrontational. Stories allow us to look at something from a different angle, right?

Gabe (05:16)
exactly. Because it allows you to enter in and feel what the characters might be feeling, or see that like a comparable situation to your own. Something that’s like very similar to your own situation, but from a different perspective.

Shannon Popkin (05:33)
In my conversation with Amy DeMarce Angelo, when we were talking about the Good Samaritan, it’s the story where somebody is asking Jesus, who’s my neighbor? let’s draw the boundary line so that I can make sure I’m doing what’s expected of me, right? I want to know exactly where the perimeter is. And instead of answering that, Jesus tells a story about

this man bleeding on the side of the road. And in a sense, he turns the table and he, who do you want to be your neighbor in that situation? When you’re the one bleeding, like now how are you gonna answer that question? Now he doesn’t say that. He doesn’t say like picture yourself bleeding on the road. He just tells a story about a man who’s bleeding. But the people who are listening to the story are definitely gonna identify with this man and be shocked that it’s the Samaritan who comes to help them. You know, now who,

you like the fact that the Samaritan is your neighbor, because you’re bleeding and the priest just walked by and didn’t help you. The Levite did nothing. so, yeah, a story helps us to feel something, experience something, use our imaginations, enter in. And we as communicators, we can learn from Jesus, right? And his method of using stories.

Gabe (06:50)
I actually really love that example because you’re right. If Jesus would have just said, you’re wrong, you’re asking the wrong question, you need to ask, like, how would you want to be treated? like, what, you know, like if you were in this situation, and if he just flat out said that, all the defense shields would have come up. But instead, he offers a story that’s very approachable. And it seems like the person can explore this in their imagination.

Shannon Popkin (07:08)
Right.

Gabe (07:19)
And then it’s like a bomb detonates when you realize, I can see how this story connects to the question I asked. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (07:26)
Yes, that’s good. Yeah, I like that idea of all the defenses are just, silenced. You’re not operating from a defensive demeanor or position. You’re just receiving a story you can receive. And like I’m thinking also of David with Nathan, who came to talk to him about his affair.

Right? If David had marched in and said, here, David may have been tempted to be defensive because he definitely had a hard heart at that point.

Gabe (07:57)
because he he gets David to say this is what he would do or what the judgment would be for this man who did this thing. And then Nathan says you are that man. And it’s like, like you can just like as you’re reading it can feel the conviction hit

Shannon Popkin (08:10)
Yeah.

you are the man, which is such a storytelling way to tell this, you know?

Gabe (08:22)
like with that, in that day and age, if you said something of against the king, you could be killed for it. there’s plenty of examples of that, but Nathan is very tactful in his approach and is able to make a point without making an enemy. Like he’s able to, tell a story that allows David to like look in a mirror and see himself.

as opposed to being the one who’s just in your face confronting. Because we’ve all had those times where we thought we had more relational capital with someone that we actually did and so we said something very just invasive in their personal life and then all of a sudden all the defenses came up and we no longer have any relational capital in their life. You know, it broke a bridge, it broke trust versus

saying a story that allowed them to come to their own conclusion.

Shannon Popkin (09:15)
You know, that’s actually, this is for the non -communicators, you just your average people that are listening to this podcast. I think of stories as a way of bridging the gap, wanting to be a truth teller in somebody else’s life. And I like, you you kind of slipped a little sticky statement in there.

Gabe to make a point, not an enemy, right? He made a point, he didn’t make an enemy. And we can make a point using stories. That’s one of the things that I continually call us back to on this podcast. Usually in our typical episodes, we’ll talk through a story of the Bible. And then we’ll talk about how does this story correct some of the false narratives of the world? And so like, if you are walking with somebody who is believing one of these false narratives,

and you wanna get truth, you know, want it to land, you wanna find an entry point to talk to them, but you’re miles apart in your thinking and your living, and there’s just such a potential for the person to be defensive and to back away from you. whether you do or don’t have the relational capital, I think sometimes when you have the relational capital,

there can be even more tendency for the person to react heavily. Because like, how dare you talk to me like that? you might say that to your mom, you wouldn’t say that to a stranger, right? But a story can help give you some common ground to talk about. Like, have you ever thought about the story of Noah and the flood, you know?

Or have you ever thought about the story of Rahab? Or have you ever thought about the story of Jonah? And then maybe you share, like remember in the story, Jonah gets on the boat and he doesn’t tell them, but he’s actually fleeing God and all this terrible stuff happens. And then he reveals, like, I don’t know what kind of point you might be wanting to make, but stories give you a vehicle for the truth that you’re trying to communicate, but you’re able to kind of

fly in under the radar, under the defense. All of the defense mechanisms are on hold and you can have a conversation.

Gabe (11:18)
Yeah, it makes me think of like, I worked as a kindergarten substitute teacher for a while and there was a fellow teacher that I worked with and her son, she said hated spinach, but he ate it every day. And I was like, well, explain to me how that works. And she says, well, I

I have a smoothie that I make from every day and he doesn’t know, but I slip spinach into it. And what I thought of is like in a way, like a story is like a way of putting those truths or those propositions in a more palatable way for somebody to digest. Something that they can receive in their own way. yeah, that idea.

Shannon Popkin (11:43)
There you go.

Yeah.

I see what you did there, Gabe. I see what you did there. You used a story to help us to, yeah, that was really good. And that’s exactly what we’re thinking.

Gabe (12:02)
That’s what…

Yeah, and so like, as a communicator, we have to think about like the function, what we want this story to function in our sermon or when we’re talking with somebody, it could just be in a conversation. Because like I mentioned, my grandpa used stories more for breaking down boundary or barriers, like breaking down defenses and more for like humor.

And that’s very appropriate way to use story at some places too. Sometimes it’s to build credibility, but I think other times it’s to bring a punch and to make a point. And there’s very effective ways to do it. And so like sometimes I’m thinking about

where is the punch and what’s what’s the point I’m trying to make? And how can this story help help say that if that makes sense?

Shannon Popkin (12:56)
Yeah, that’s when I’m prepping to speak, I work on stories probably more than anything else. I mean, I have, you know, my points. Obviously, I know what I’m going to say, but my stories, I get really precise about the stories because stories can actually take.

Gabe (12:58)
Mm -hmm.

Shannon Popkin (13:11)
too long, you can have all these unnecessary details. So I work really hard and I usually go for a walk because that helps me, I don’t know when I’m moving, to practice. And so I will practice the story that I’m going to tell a bunch of different times and I’ll time myself. I want to get it to like three, three and a half minutes if possible. I don’t want to take any more time than that. And so, and I’ll be really precise about eliminating unnecessary details. But the thing I work

hardest on is my opening line and my closing line because I want those to link up for what how I’m actually using the story and so how I enter the story and how I exit are super important and you know when you’re on a platform I’ve made all the mistakes Gabe you’re thinking I want to tell the story and I’ll set up like three different sentences to set it up well I was with my son and and actually

Gabe (13:41)
That’s great.

Mm

Shannon Popkin (14:04)
we were driving and that doesn’t, you know, it’s like, I’m trying to, how do I start the story, right? And so I have to get those ready beforehand, because I just, want to use every minute wisely, right?

Gabe (14:17)
Shea, I think that’s like such a good point because I’ll hear a communicator and I’m like, okay, they are more excited about the story than the message behind it or something or, or like I’ve had times where for myself, I’ve included just unnecessary details that really don’t contribute. So I want to be efficient with my stories. And I the part you said about what you start with and what you end with, because it’s kind of like the Olympics, like

Shannon Popkin (14:27)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Gabe (14:44)
when you do the dismount and you finish, I mean, you could have a great story, but if the dismount, the end is not clear, like why I’m telling this story, people will be like, why did they, I mean, that was a great story, but I don’t know what to do with it. Like you almost need to have a tag that tells them this is where the story was. Like they need to understand that without being.

overt about it because I think like what’s really good for communicators is when they can use this technique called digression and they’re talking about a point and as they’re telling stuff about the point all of a sudden they break and they start telling a story and they don’t tell you why they’re telling the story and then at the end of the story they bring it back to the point that’s at hand and all of a sudden it’s like

Shannon Popkin (15:30)
Okay.

Gabe (15:38)
You didn’t even see it coming, but you realize how this story brought to life the point they were trying to make. And they bookend it with talking about like the point that they were, you know, talking about. Because I think I talked about in the previous podcast how a lot of times how we’re taught to communicate is tell people what you’re going to tell them, tell it to them, and then tell them what you told them. But that like

that doesn’t really allow any transformation. It’s really good for information delivery. But like, if I really want to bring a punch, I can’t tell somebody I’m going to punch them. I’m not going to actually punch them, but you know what I But I have to bring the punch and not allow them to see it coming in the story, like to have that tension there.

Shannon Popkin (16:14)
Yeah.

Yeah, no, that’s so good. I didn’t know there was a term for that, digression, but I’ve definitely used it, you know? Just for the communicators out there, you don’t even have to set up the story, just go ahead and tell it, right? One of my biggest pet peeves, Gabe, is when people will stand up, I mean, not pet peeve, I can endure with you, but they’ll get up to talk and they’ll be like, when…

Mary asked me to speak. thought about, what am I going to say? And I thought, maybe I should talk about this. And then, no, not that. Maybe I should talk about this. And what I decided is, I really want to talk about this. And you’re just like, my goodness. Please don’t give me your process. I don’t need that. That’s not serving me at all. You don’t have to apologize for being up there to speak. We all understand that you’re the speaker and you’ve come with a message. So just get on with it. Right?

But same with the stories, you know, there’s almost an over setup. And if you’ll just go ahead and get started with the story, it actually makes more sense. I love that digression. Let’s see if can come up with an example. I was just actually today thinking about a story that I’d like to use in a message. So let’s see if I could pull this off,

Let’s see if I can do this. Change is incremental. We don’t change all in a moment, right? Galatians 5 says that we’re to keep in step with the spirit. We’re to walk by the spirit. And walking involves a series of step by step by step, really decisions. It’s a decision making process. so we’re walking, like some people’s

think it’s walking by the power of the Spirit, but I think it’s just walking alongside the Spirit also. think both are true. You know, the Spirit is empowering you, walking in the right direction, doing the right things. But there’s also a sense of being with the Lord, right? As you walk out your Christian life. So we have a new puppy. His name is Moses. What I’ve been noticing about this little guy, Moses,

is that he likes to sneak off sometimes. He’ll be with me, I’m cooking dinner, I’m cleaning the bathroom, I’m here at the computer, he’s with me, he’s with me, he’s with me all day long, and then all of sudden I notice like, my goodness, he’s not with me, and there is a problem. And then I go and I look.

in some little hallway or end of a closet or something and I find a little deposit that he has made because he was not with me, right? And so the good life happens when he stays with me, walking with me side by side all the way through our day. If he makes it through a whole day and he’s just with me the whole way through, there’s nothing to discipline. There’s nothing that I need to correct him on. It’s those moments that he’s not with me, you know, that…

there needs to be corrective measure. Okay, so I don’t know if I told that story perfectly, see how I, hopefully I just modeled that digression. You know, I’m making a point and then I used a story, right, to kind of help you to see that, to flesh that out a little bit.

Gabe (19:11)
I love that.

really like that because you didn’t it was almost like you so smoothly went into the story that if somebody’s not listening carefully they don’t even know when you’ve switched like there’s no abrupt okay let me tell a story to illustrate what Paul means it’s just you’re talking about walking in step with the spirit and then I think the phrase you used was what I noticed about the puppy

Shannon Popkin (19:32)
Yeah, yeah.

Exactly, yeah.

Gabe (19:47)
It was so smooth, but I almost didn’t even know when you switched into the story.

Shannon Popkin (19:51)
Yeah, yeah, that’s really all you need to do. But yeah, when I’m saying walk by the spirit, I’m creating a word picture and that is very helpful. But what do you, like, let me just throw, this is just live. I didn’t give you this ahead of time. What do you think telling the story about the dog, how does that serve?

that part of the message, do you think?

Gabe (20:13)
Well, you take like a very complex idea like walking with the spirit and bring it into a very tangible real life thing. part of a story I think the idea, the function is

translating a very complex issue into something that’s tangible and real. So if I talk about listening to God and I’m talking about the Hebrew word Shema and how we need to listen to God because in the famous Hebrew prayer, hero is real, the Lord your God is one. And this idea of listening

But there’s a lot of times when things distract us from listening. So when I was a janitor once, there was this one fellow janitor that would talk my ear off. And he would always talk about all the miscellaneous details that nobody cared about, the work they were doing. And one time I saw a friend of mine who was at a basketball game

and so I wanted to catch my friend before he left and all of a sudden guess who steps in the way? It’s this janitor and he just talks and talks and I try to sidestep and get around that and then my friend leaves and this janitor is still talking to me and I step away and say I can’t talk right now I gotta go.

and i’m not trying to be mean but i don’t have time to listen at that point and so i step away and as soon as i step away i realize what the guy was saying he was saying that he just got a call that his wife was in an ambulance going to the er and so when i when i shared that like

I’m doing like the same thing you were talking about, just this smooth on board to a story. And I’m trying to do that to illustrate a moment where I didn’t listen to someone who was right in front of me and how sometimes God could be, if we can do that with people, is it possible we can do that with the Lord and miss them saying, yeah.

Shannon Popkin (22:16)
That’s good. And what you did with that story is you made us feel the loss. You made us feel the hurt of that, of not this man not being listened to. And it’s something important. in a sense, we’re feeling how God feels when we don’t listen. Because He’s saying, listen, O Israel, listen,

And so we might not feel that without that story. So that’s that story then serves this idea of listening. I think stories too, as you’re as you’re putting together a message, stories slow the flow of ideas. That’s one of the things that we talk about in Teach Equip. I’ve heard Lindsay and Kelly say that many times, like they slow, you know, we can only take in so many thoughts per minute.

And so a story helps us to just bring the pace in a little bit, extend it. Let’s just think about this a little bit longer. It’s like you’re pouring water into the plant and you don’t just dump the water all at once. You pour a little bit and let the water soak into the soil, pour a little bit more, and then it doesn’t spill over, right? If you just dump the whole.

watering can into the plant, it’s gonna spill over, it’s not gonna sink in and that’s the same with our audience. So stories can help things just sink in, it slows the pace, it gives you another angle to be looking at this truth that we want to hold up and impact our audiences.

Gabe (23:44)
love that idea of slowing down our communication because I think that that we live in a society where efficiency and making everything fast is like an urgency is like the priority but slowing down our communication I think is really good and story does that I think another one that story does is you mentioned this in the previous podcast about mobilizing people

I one of my favorite phrases or statements is whoever tells the best story wins. And it’s not about competition, but I’m more mean like what’s at stake in our society is who’s telling the best story. And I think that

it’s just really important for Christians to tell the story and tell it well, because there’s so many competing narratives in our society right now.

Shannon Popkin (24:36)
What would be some of those competing narratives, like where the world is telling a story that seems compelling and that we as Christians have the true or better story?

Gabe (24:47)
Yeah, when I worked as a college minister, I would see competing narratives. And you know, I see these TV shows and movies, that young ladies are watching where it shows a narrative of what love is.

or songs that are very popular out right now that are talking about what love is. some of them are just, know, be whoever you feel like, but then there’s other narratives of be whoever this person you love wants you to be is the proposition. And then it turns people into just doing whatever

Shannon Popkin (25:22)
Mm.

Gabe (25:28)
will win love or earn it. And when we read the gospel, it shows two different types of love. like in Ephesians four, it says, these people gave themselves up to pleasure, to sensuality. And it uses this language of giving themselves up like trading. But then if you go to the next chapter, chapter five of Ephesians, it talks about Jesus.

who loved us and gave himself up for us. And it gives another message of what love is because I think that so often right now there’s this idea that if you want love, you have to trade yourself, give yourself up for this. And they painted, you know, very romanticized that this, if you give yourself up for this person or this thing, that you’ll have this great experience and it’ll just be.

Shannon Popkin (25:59)
Mm.

Gabe (26:23)
everything you want. But then if you look at what Jesus did, says he gave himself up for us. It was self -sacrifice. It wasn’t for his own pleasure. So yeah, a very different narrative, counter -narrative.

Shannon Popkin (26:36)
And those are, in a sense, that could be confusing, because they seem similar. Like I’m giving myself up so I can have this love affair that I’m looking for that

that I will be desirable and I will be able to attract someone to me that looks like love. It looks like a lot of work. You know, it looks like I have to re –

invent myself. I’ve got to be more beautiful. I have to be more alluring. I have to give myself away, maybe give myself away sexually. I have to give away my personality so I can be, you know, attract, like I can’t just be myself, right? And I can’t trust that this is, this is a gift. I have to go out and get it, right? Versus this other story where God sent his son, he gave his only son, and Jesus gave up his life in a sacrificial way.

Like if we were to transfer that definition of love over into relationships, it would be like, I’m looking for someone who doesn’t put themselves first, right? And I wanna be the type of person where I also give. it’s not like I’m trying to get something for myself, right? It’s more I come to the table with like, I wanna give myself to God. And I wanna partner.

where we can together give ourselves, give our lives away, right? And we do it more effectively together than as individuals. How did I do there, Gabe? I don’t know.

Gabe (27:58)
I think that’s fantastic because I do think that’s what’s happening is there’s this idea that the person that I need is the person who brings the most attention to my ego and you know, like they’re the life of the party and all those things can be good. But if, if you have somebody who like is self -sacrificing and loyal and is like Jesus who laid himself down for someone else.

versus somebody who gave themselves up for their own pleasure. I mean, those are very different narratives. And what we have is a lot of movies and shows that are very eye -focused. And the rhetoric gets changed to my rights. And when that happens, so much eye language in your rights and what’s good for you.

Shannon Popkin (28:31)
Yeah.

Gabe (28:53)
It just, it sounds very inspiring, but when the rhetoric becomes so much about yourself, it is a narrative that’s different than the gospel.

Shannon Popkin (29:03)
Yeah, that’s so true. I’ve been watching my kids just navigate dating and like there’s the apps now, the dating apps and there are so many ways that technology has changed the whole landscape of dating. Like I think even just looking at an app and evaluating a person on a screen,

you evaluate your whole sense of evaluating them is different. mean, you’re like zooming in, looking at the pictures, like look in a way that you wouldn’t if you met them, right? If you were talking to them, you wouldn’t be like, let me see, are your eyes exactly the same, you know, size? I don’t know. And I think there’s a whole different way that we’re approaching each other in relationships that’s only being reinforced by the movies that we watch and the shows, you know, whatever songs we listen to.

Gabe (29:53)
think that word evaluation is so key because that is the what happens is dating becomes about evaluation instead of seeing the person as a gift from God. Because if you go into marriage with that same lens of constantly evaluating somebody, it’s constantly like a report card in their face as opposed to seeing the person as a gift is way different.

Shannon Popkin (30:04)
Yes.

Gabe (30:20)
Even one way somebody put it for me is dating a lot of times right now is like if I said to you Hey, I’m going to the airport this weekend. You’d probably ask me where are you going? And if I said no, no, no, I’m just going to the airport Like it’s more expensive the seating is as comfortable, but I want to be there A lot of times I think we approach dating as like dating is the end result

like, as opposed to like, you the airport is like, go there to go somewhere else. and in the same way dating, you know, that’s not supposed to be the end like to. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (30:48)
Yeah.

Right,

It’s not the destination, yeah, marriage is the destination, that’s what you’re saying. And so dating is the vehicle that gets you there. And so yeah, you approach dating differently if you’re looking at marriage as a gift that God would potentially give me. And so I’m going to be looking at this opportunity to get to know someone to see if this is a gift that God has for the both of us, right? Yeah.

Yeah, that’s so good. I feel like we could do another whole episode on dating, right? And you probably have a lot of experience talking with different young adults about dating. But any last thoughts that you might share with us, on using story as communicators, especially sharing truth from the Bible or in conversation with others?

Gabe (31:45)
Yeah, I think don’t be afraid to just start the story like we said earlier. Recognize what is the function of the story I’m telling and what are the details that are most necessary. I think just one last thing I’d say is like practice telling story. Like use it in conversation and it helps you be able to be more prepared to use it like if you’re telling your testimony or

an illustration while preaching. And then I think I think we just need people that understand the power of story that are architects like my undergrad was creative writing. And I think that isn’t a deterrent to preaching. think that creative writing, we need people that are writers and understand and appreciate story because it is what will shape the imaginations of the next generation. So

Shannon Popkin (32:37)
It’s so true, yeah, it’s so true. I love what you said there. I do that intuitively, like what you just said. Like I pay attention to, if there’s something that has happened and I tell like more than one person this thing that happened, I’m like, that’s probably gonna be a good illustration at some point. Because it’s…

It’s obviously something that I think people might want to hear. For a story, you’re looking for something that’s out of the ordinary, that catches attention. It’s ironic, it’s funny. There’s something about it that makes a story, right? Yeah, it’s a story that’s worth telling. And so then you’re looking for, how can I weave this? How do people respond to it when I interject it in conversation?

Gabe (33:11)
Yeah, it’s worth coming, yeah.

Shannon Popkin (33:22)
What’s their reaction? Do they understand it the same way that I’m intending or do I need to change the way that I tell it? But yeah, just trying it out on different people before you might in a larger audience setting. But also I think just looking for those opportunities in the Bible to, what are the stories in the Bible that have most captured my attention, captured my heart? And how can I retell those stories to myself and to other people?

I’m gonna just real briefly like take one minute to share a story that I love from the Bible and Gabe, I’ll give you the opportunity and then we’ll close. So one of my favorite stories in the Bible is, well, it’s hard for me to pick as there are so many that I love, but you know, on this podcast, we talk about these stories. so one of the ones that I continually go back to is a conversation that I had with Vanessa Reisner.

And we talked about when Jesus, the raising of Lazarus from the dead and how he talked with Mary and Martha. They both asked a similar question, but Jesus responded differently to these two different sisters. so Jesus was, he knew them personally. And with Mary, even though he was giving the same answer, Jesus wept, you know, he, he said, she said,

Gabe (34:17)
Thanks

Shannon Popkin (34:39)
Lord, why didn’t you come? If you had come, my brother would have lived. And Jesus just wept with her, even though he knew. He had delayed. He loved her. And then he delayed. The text says he loved her, and then he delayed. And then he came with the sole purpose of raising Lazarus from the dead. He knew Lazarus was going to be raised, but Jesus took the moment to weep. And it’s this deep agonizing weeping.

And so I just hold on to that and the things that the struggles that I’m going through. This isn’t the fullest story. Jesus weeps with me. He is with me in the sorrow, even though he knows that he has a bigger purpose, a longer perspective. He has the end of the story where there will be resurrection. There will be new life. All the sad things will be undone, as C .S. Lewis puts it. And so I think that just helps me.

to go through the hard things in life. How about you, Gabe? What’s one of your favorite stories of the Bible that you tell yourself and others?

Gabe (35:38)
Well, like you said, there’s so many One that

one that I really like is in Acts nine, the story of like, you everybody focuses on the part where

Saul or Paul is on the road to Damascus and sees the light falls on his face and has this big moment. But I think the character that doesn’t get a lot of screen time, who I really like is Ananias. You know, if you think about that, you hear that this person’s coming to kill Christians or imprison them. And now God is saying, go talk to that person. It would be terrifying. you’d be like.

Shannon Popkin (36:08)
Yeah.

Terrifying. Yeah.

Gabe (36:15)
I moved away from Jerusalem to get away from this person and now I’m hiding from them. And God, generally in hide and seek, you don’t go and just say, here I am. You usually try and hide from the person and now you’re saying go and talk to them. for me, it’s fun to even just imagine like if I could step into the story and try and convince Ananias, like say, Ananias, I’m from the future.

Shannon Popkin (36:19)
Yeah.

Gabe (36:42)
And this guy that you’re afraid to go talk to, he writes letter after letter after letter and they go to church after church and thousands of years from now, I will be standing doing weddings. People will be doing weddings all over the world and quoting this man who wrote 1 Corinthians chapter 13 about love. And there’ll be people in gyms who have tattoos on their arms.

that, you know, talk about Philippians 413, which is another wrote, and this guy will do that. But if you don’t do what you’re supposed to do in this chapter and go talk to that person, he might not do what he’s supposed to do in all those other chapters. And, and just this idea of like, what is the potential of one character doing something in a small, seemingly miscellaneous moment of talking to somebody, one moment of courage.

Shannon Popkin (37:27)
Yeah, that’s good.

Gabe (37:40)
that affects somebody else who affects the world and the power of that. So I just, love seeing the minor characters that don’t get a lot of screen time and what could have been going through their head.

Shannon Popkin (37:51)
Wow, that’s so good, so good. Well, thank you so much for both of these conversations, Gabe. It’s been such a pleasure to have you talking about story and the Bible and communication. such a joy.

Gabe (38:03)
Thank you, Shannon. Thanks for the opportunity.