Shannon Popkin (00:00) Vera Schmitz, welcome to Live Like It’s True.

Vera (00:02) Thanks for having me. I’m so excited to just be hanging out and talking about my favorite thing, God’s word.

Shannon Popkin (00:07) Yes, absolutely. So you are part of Dwell Differently, right? Which is an online community. You have a new book called Dwell Differently and y ‘all are all about Bible verses, memorizing Bible verses, right? Okay.

Vera (00:12) Yes, ma ‘am.

Yes, ma ‘am. Yes, really memorizing them and not just memorizing them, like really trying to understand the context of the scripture and how it applies to our life and how it can transform our life. You we don’t just want to have a bunch of head knowledge where, check, I have 41 verses memorized. You you really want to see that life transformation from experiencing the power of God’s word.

Shannon Popkin (00:44) Exactly.

Yes, and that’s the whole purpose of this podcast, live like it’s true. Not only know it, but live it and let your life reflect the truth. Like let it set you free, right? And so that’s, yeah, we’re both kind of in that same thinking of like, how can we embody this truth and live it out? But let’s back up and talk a little bit about you personally. So Dwell Differently is a ministry

Vera (00:55) Mm -hmm.

Yes.

Shannon Popkin (01:17) you two sisters founded by two sisters right so you and your sister Natalie who’s the older

Vera (01:18) Yes. Yes.

Natalie’s older, which like it’s always wonderful for her. She’s 10 years older and people are like, are you guys twins? And I’m like, I don’t know if I should feel away or she should feel great. But yes, she is the older sister.

Shannon Popkin (01:29) wow! my goodness.

Okay, that is so cool. And I love that, you know, she’s probably in a different phase of life. Tell about… Yeah.

Vera (01:44) For sure. I’m always like, so tell me more about this. You know, as my kids get older, she has five kids. I have three. And so I’m always like, hey, have you ever had this happen before?

Shannon Popkin (01:54) yes, how fun to have a sister who’s just that much ahead, right? so this idea though, where did this all come from? Like, you know, did it start with a conversation or a situation? it, what was the impetus? Yeah.

Vera (02:06) Where did it all start? Yeah, it’s a fun story. I always love to tell it. So I grew up doing sports, gymnastics when I was really little. right now it’s actually the Olympic season if you’re airing this later. that whole feeling, the women’s gymnastics team just two nights ago won Olympic gold. Well, in 1996, they won Olympic gold in Atlanta and I was probably eight years old. And I remember sitting in the splits,

Shannon Popkin (02:19) I, yeah.

Vera (02:34) in front of the TV being like, I’m going to the Olympics one day. I’m going to do that. And sitting in the splits. And little did I know, like there’s a certain body type that’s appropriate to become an Olympic gymnast. And I got too tall for the sport really. Like I hit middle school and was like, this is not, this is getting harder. And so I picked up pole vaulting in track and field. Cause I was like, that’s basically gymnastics, right? You’re just running, running down the runway with

Shannon Popkin (02:39) Sitting in the splits.

Yeah.

yeah.

Vera (03:02) and then doing a flip in the air essentially over this bar. And so I started pole vaulting and had taller. Yeah, the taller the better. Yeah, more, I mean, you don’t have to be tall, but it is an advantage. You have better angles and that kind of thing. And I mean, I’m not super tall, I’m 5 ‘7″, but I picked it up really quickly and in high school won three state championships, got a scholarship to Indiana University and was an All -American there

Shannon Popkin (03:08) And that’s good for tall people, right? That’s a tall girl sport. Yeah, that’s awesome, yeah.

Vera (03:30) after graduating, decided I’m gonna keep training to make an Olympic team. And so I had the privilege of training for the 2012 and 2016 Olympic trials and competing there. And all through that time, I became a believer when I was young, about the same age as the Olympics. it was, my sister Natalie had come home, she had accepted Jesus at college, came home and was like, hey, did you know that you can make this all

Shannon Popkin (03:48) Okay.

okay.

Vera (03:58) real because as a kid I was already very interested in the Bible. And so I accepted Jesus.

Shannon Popkin (04:01) Yeah. Like, was your family a Christian family? Did you grow up, like, going to church and all that?

Vera (04:06) Yes, not super like church involved, but very aware of who God was. And we prayed every night and we read the Bible. And for Natalie, it was all just like, yeah, whatever. And then she accepted Jesus through Campus Crusade at the University of Missouri. And she was on fire. She was crazy. She was like one of those crazy Christians.

Shannon Popkin (04:24) Wow, okay.

I

Vera (04:30) It was so fun, but she shared the gospel with me as an eight -year -old and I was like, I want this and I accepted Jesus. And so all through my training and competing, I used to write scripture on my wrist in Sharpie marker. I would put verses on there about specifically, I remember putting a Colossians verse on my wrist about who I was working for, like that you would work for the Lord and not for man since you know, you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as your reward. It is the Lord you are serving.

Shannon Popkin (04:53) Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Vera (04:58) and because I had a tendency to want to win the approval of my coaches and such. So I would write scripture on my wrist in Sharpie and at one point, I was probably like 2014, 2015, I was training for the 2016 Olympics and my sister -in was like, if you write the first letter of every word on your wrist instead of like the whole verse, like word for word, if you use the first letter of every word, it’s really easy to recall

Shannon Popkin (05:04) For sure, for sure.

Mm -hmm, mm -hmm.

Vera (05:27) those letters are and memorize the verse. It’s way more effective. And I was like, that’s brilliant. So I started doing that. And then after 2016, I actually went to the Olympic trials, did not make the team. I went into like no matter what, no matter if you like know who you are in Christ, like when hard things come in your life, things come and

It can be a shock to your system. And that really was for me. I had trained my whole life for this one goal and now it was gone and I didn’t have really a plan B. And I experienced tremendous crippling anxiety for about a year. It was awful. It was awful. know, waking up in the middle of the night and not being able to go back to sleep. Your heart is racing. You’re afraid of your own thoughts. And I just relied so heavily on God’s

Shannon Popkin (06:02) I’m so sorry.

Vera (06:15) I, for the first time, really understood what it meant that it was my daily bread, that it would sustain me, that it would comfort me, that it was a light in the darkness. All of the truths about God’s word were shown to me in a very real way. coming out of that season, the Lord was gracious to pull me out of that pit. And I remember I was still writing.

you know, the first letter of every word on my wrist. And I looked down one day and I was like, I should make a tattoo out of that. Wouldn’t that be cool? And so I Googled how to make a temporary tattoo and I ordered a set of 25 and I passed out 25 tattoos, my friends and family. was like, hey, see if you can memorize this Bible verse. And they all did. And I was like, I have, I have to do this. I have to help people to know the power of God’s word that he will meet you in your every need. And so

Shannon Popkin (06:43) Ha ha ha!

Vera (07:05) figured it all out and started Dwell Differently in December of 2017 and begged my sister Natalie to help me.

Shannon Popkin (07:10) And I have to show you, okay, I have to show you what I have on my wrist. Vera, I have the very first tattoo that this 52 year old has ever worn. Isn’t that great? I love it. I got this little, you know.

Vera (07:15) Yes. Yes, ma ‘am.

I love it.

Yes, that’s what our membership looks like. It’s a yellow envelope. It’s the happy meal.

Shannon Popkin (07:31) Okay, it’s the happy meal. I love that. And so I got this at TGC. I was there and I wish I would have, you know, run into you in person. That would have been so fun to meet you person. But yeah, it included these little tattoos and this one is, let’s see if I can do it. Okay. I just actually glanced at the verse. Wait, but these are written so that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the son of God.

Vera (07:33) Yes.

Yes.

Next time! Yes!

Let’s see

Shannon Popkin (07:57) and that by believing you may have life in his name. I did it. And I would not have been able to do it without my tattoo. Yes, John 20 31. There it is right on my wrist. I love it. So I love that you and your sister, I love that your spiritual life began with her kind of shepherding you and that this is something that you guys decided, hey, let’s dive in and do this together and look at the impact.

Vera (08:00) have life. Bingo. And that’s John something, 2031? John 2031? Yeah. Yes. Yes.

Shannon Popkin (08:26) you’re having like, are you kind of like keeping track of how many verses are memorized through this site?

Vera (08:31) Yes, so it’s a monthly membership. So we memorize one Bible verse every single month now and we do like temporary tattoos or you can choose stickers if you’re not like a tattoo person. But the cool thing about the tattoos, I bet now that you’ve got that on somebody at the grocery store or a friend is going to be like, what’s your tattoo? my gosh, Shannon, you got a tattoo. And then you get to share this truth with them. It’s really, really like, we didn’t intend for it to be this way to share your faith, but it’s

Shannon Popkin (08:37) Wow, okay.

Okay.

Yes.

Yeah, exactly.

Vera (08:59) easy way to just share your faith with people. But we started this tracker because we were like, how do we measure what we’re doing? Because I’m being so goal oriented. like, I just need, I want to know, like, what are we doing? you know, God will do whatever he wants to do with anything. And we always said, if one person’s life is met with the word and their life is transformed, then it’s all worth it. But we’ve memorized together as a community,

Shannon Popkin (09:18) Mm -hmm.

Vera (09:23) all the people who’ve memorized every month, we’ve added it up and it’s roughly like 850 ,000 versus memorized as a community that we can technically like count. But like, who knows how many people online we have an Instagram, that kind of thing where you can follow along and memorize with us there too.

Shannon Popkin (09:29) my goodness, that is amazing. That you know of, right? That you can.

I love it. So my daughter is 26 and I saw this thing on her phone case. I was like, what is this? It’s like all these letters. So she’s been memorizing. I think it was the first chapter of Romans. So it was a lot. know. So, and I said, you know, how’s it going? And she’s like, I think it’s actually a lot to try to do at once. Like it’s kind of maybe overwhelming. I don’t know if she’s going to try it again, but she’s like the by far.

Vera (10:06) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (10:11) the most impactful thing is like all the people who ask me about what is that on phone. And so she talks about Romans and how she wants to know the truth and live by the truth. she’s in corporate America doing her thing. she’s and public accounting,

Vera (10:14) Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm. Mm

Shannon Popkin (10:27) So I love this. Now, OK, so before we talk about other stuff, just I need to know, like, how do you get in? How do you do these tattoos like come in the mail or what happens?

Vera (10:37) Yeah. Well, so the monthly membership, it’s like you can sign up for your monthly membership. And then kind of the whole thing is you get this kit that you just showed where it has either temporary tattoos or stickers for your water bottle. And then a key chain for your key tag. And then there’s a card in there that it’s like a print that I like to set up like on my desk or on my windowsill down in my kitchen. And then there’s a devotional on the reverse side, but then we have all the extra benefits. Like this is this, I’ve got

this month’s design on here. You will keep in perfect peace those whose minds are steadfast because they trust in you, Isaiah 26 .3. It’s so beautiful. And so the idea too is like, it’s not just the letters. We try to really take main point we’re trying to learn in the scripture and make that visually connected. So like this is a beautiful, like olive branch, this idea of peace, you will keep in perfect peace.

Shannon Popkin (11:06) Okay.

love that. It’s so pretty too. Yeah.

Yes.

Vera (11:29) And so that visual, 65 % of us are visual learners. So like, as you’re piling these up month by month, you’re like, okay, that one was an olive branch for peace. And it’s a big why, what is that why? You, you will keep in perfect peace. And so that’s kind of what we do. So we got the digital stuff and then we have a weekly podcast where we, again, it’s what I saying. Like we don’t want to just memorize a verse to memorize it. It’s like, what does it mean you will keep in perfect peace? Like, so we dive in really deep to.

Shannon Popkin (11:29) Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

There you go. Yeah. That’s really cool.

Mm -hmm.

Vera (11:58) the all the surrounding context. And then every week we have a guest Natalie and I have an episode where we talk about what does it mean to actually apply this. So we do that weekly podcast and a weekly devotional. We just try to help you guys like get in to the

Shannon Popkin (12:10) I love it. yeah, we are such visual learners and I’ve talked often on this podcast about how like the Hebrew language has way fewer words.

They’re very visual. like instead of, the example I’ve given is instead of saying you’re greedy or stingy, they’ll say you have a bad eye. Like you can’t even see your neighbor next to you. So like,

Vera (12:22) -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Shannon Popkin (12:30) It is a very colorful visual language. uses concrete images. that, I mean, God’s word is so filled with concrete imagery. There are a lot of abstract ideas, faith, love, hope, you know, like in this verse, these are written that you might believe. So believe is an abstract concept that Jesus is the Christ, Son of God, that by believing in him, you might have life.

Vera (12:33) Yes.

Mm -hmm.

Shannon Popkin (12:56) in His name. So like there are they’re true things, but we have to think abstractly about them. And yet Jesus came in the flesh that we might see. He’s like the exact image of God, right? So that we might see this is who God is. This is what God is like. Look at Jesus and look at who He talked to and what He did and how He, you corresponded with different people.

Our God is invested in imagery. I mean, he created our minds so he knows what’s going to be helpful for us, what’s going to work for us. And we’re kind of Western thinkers and we think more in the abstract. We like it. We like deductive reasoning. We like an argument. We like three points. We like to boil it all down to something that sounds very interesting.

Vera (13:21) Yes.

Shannon Popkin (13:41) intellectual and we don’t use stories and imagery the same way that Middle Eastern thinkers do. You know, like if we’re preparing a speech or a message or something, maybe have a story as an example or an illustration, but story won’t be the main thing. And in the Middle East, it’s the opposite. It’s like the story is the main, like if you’re gonna say something important, you’re going to encapsulate it in a story.

Vera (13:41) Mm -hmm.

Right.

is the

Shannon Popkin (14:05) or in a metaphor. And that’s… Yes!

Vera (14:05) Ugh, I love that. It’s just so poetic. It’s like I think often about Psalm 23, will keep, you know, the Lord is my shepherd. I lack nothing. He makes me lie down in green pastures. Now I could tell you, hey, here’s what you need to do. You need to rest. You need to take a minute for yourself. Take some deep breaths. Take in your surrounding. Or I can say, he makes me lie down in green pastures. Like imagine that, like go there. What would it be like to lay on the

Shannon Popkin (14:17) Yes.

And it’s just, yeah.

Vera (14:33) most plush grass, he leads me beside quiet waters. What does it feel like to be beside a brookling, a stream, know? Babbling brook, a babbling brook. What is it like to lay there and to be totally at peace? know, how much more beautiful it is than me being like, hey, you need to chill out, you know? And here’s your three steps to chilling

Shannon Popkin (14:42) babbling, babbling Brooke.

Yeah, exactly, Right, right. And I mean, think of him as the shepherd. Like he’s guiding me, he’s protecting me. He’s guarding me from doing the thing I wanna do, wander off. yeah, so much imagery. So let’s go back though to your book. You’ve created a book that is responding to negative thoughts that are off and on loop in our minds.

One of y ‘all talked about how like you were driving down the road and you took, know, your map app told you to take this exit and you did one loop on the highway and then you did another one like this clover loop. And then all of sudden realize, my goodness, I am on the same road. Why did it take me off on all those loops? Right? And that kind of describes what a lot of us do inside our heads. Like we go on these loops and it’s like, my gosh, this is driving me crazy.

Vera (15:40) Mm -hmm.

Yes.

Shannon Popkin (15:45) Is that, that’s kind of what you’re responding to in the book, like these negative loops in our head?

Vera (15:48) Yes. I mean, I think there’s a lot, I’m not no scientist, but just this idea of when you have a thought pathway and you have walked down that pathway a lot, it turns into a road, turns into a highway, turns into a super highway where it is when something comes at you, you’re most likely to respond the same way that you’ve always responded. And so this book is really an effort to help people to start to make a new pathway.

Shannon Popkin (16:10) Yeah.

Vera (16:15) So when, for instance, the chapter on anxiety, it’s like when you have this thing coming at you, am I gonna get on this loop where I’m like, the worst case is gonna happen and spiral down, or am I going to choose this different path, which is not well -worn, which is a footpath through the woods to say, cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you and understanding what that means and practicing what I need to practice in order to really…

Shannon Popkin (16:30) Mm -hmm.

Vera (16:40) believe that I can trust God, I can give him my every burden. And we can do that. It’s hard and it’s a practice all the time and sometimes I’m doing it and sometimes I’m not. But to give yourself the language so that, like that’s a very good starting point. It’s a very good starting point to know God’s word for your every need instead of your words.

Shannon Popkin (16:45) Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, I just interviewed this other guy who is a neurologist. He has all the credentials to be saying exactly what you just said. And he was talking about the same thing where he’s like, our brains have these neural pathways and these thoughts make these super highways. But he was talking about how each time you choose a different thought direction, it’s like taking a cement block from that highway and adding it to this little path in the woods, like you just said.

And what I loved about what he said is there are times that you go back on that super highway, you know, that you’ve been traveling down for years, but that does not mean that you’ve gotten rid of all of the bricks you’ve already laid, right? So, and all you have to do is the next decision, the next thought is to like, hey, let’s keep building this path. And another thing that he said that I thought was so intriguing is that we,

Vera (17:40) new work.

Shannon Popkin (17:52) If you want to put a new brick on the path, you don’t actually have to do a new behavior. You can think a new thought. athletes, said, you were an athlete. He said that athletes who would visualize their performance, did you ever experience that as an athlete? Like visualizing and that actually helps your performance, yeah?

Vera (18:09) yeah.

Yes, yes, absolutely. I’ve read stories before where it’s like an athlete was taken out of their sport for a year and they visualized every day. It’s something ridiculous. Like 80 % of what you’re visualizing translates to performance. So I did a ton of visualizing in sport where especially I had a hip surgery at one point and every day I would do so many reps of my vaults in my mind because your body is still learning the

Shannon Popkin (18:29) That’s what he said.

Yes, isn’t that crazy?

Vera (18:40) Same thing like when my hip was injured, I would do all of my weightlifting on my right leg and my left leg is actually receiving the work that the right leg is doing without even doing it. That’s how brilliant our bodies are. And so you can think like what you’re saying, like if we can visualize or think about true noble right, pure things, that will start to, it’s like, I just imagine it being, I’m such a visual person. It’s

Shannon Popkin (19:00) Mm -hmm.

Vera (19:05) You put that drop of food coloring in a glass of water and it just starts to spread.

Shannon Popkin (19:05) Yeah, I know.

Yeah, it just spreads, right? Yeah. So the battle against these negative thoughts and behaviors start in our mind. And really we can make the difference that we want. And it’s really, it’s not us. I always want to emphasize like the gospel is not like, okay, you got to think better. You got to do better. You got to, it’s not think harder, try harder, do better. It’s like, no, this is a work that God does in us. And we’re just,

Vera (19:29) Mm -hmm.

Shannon Popkin (19:37) cooperating with his spirit, like the word is planted inside of us. And so by, looking at our little tattoos and rehearsing the truth and doing the work in our minds, we can be overcomers. And so I want to look at one of these. So each of your chapters is responding to a negative. I thought all of them were great. I kind of want to memorize all of them, which I think reader readers will also. But

Vera (19:44) Mm -hmm.

Do it.

Shannon Popkin (20:00) Let’s see, I wanna talk about you and your sister you wrote truth when you feel unaccepted, give us like, what does it feel like to feel unaccepted?

Vera (20:11) So the verse that we chose for this chapter is, for it is by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. That’s Ephesians 2, And I think for me, you’ve heard my story, I tend towards perfectionism. I tend towards gaining the acceptance of man and the approval of man. And it’s a really tricky…

tricky thing for that to be the goal in your life. And here’s why. I’ve got little kids right now, seven, four, and one. And we had a really tough and enjoyable Sunday, the Sunday where my kids did some crazy stuff and we’re in the midst of like really trying to parent this

and do the thing. And I looked at my husband and I was so frustrated, but with tears in my eyes, I was like, I’m just so grateful that we can actually see their sin. I can actually see it. It is so visible to me, like the things they did wrong, and we can talk about that with them. I think this particular situation here where we’re talking about, I accepted or am I not accepted, is not easy to see all the time. So growing up, I was the straight eight student, I was the state champion.

earned and gathered all the accolades and all the acceptance and everybody patted me on the back for

for getting their acceptance. I was celebrated for the sin of needing their approval. And so this verse is so good. It’s so good because it’s this reminder that God does not operate that way. He does not need me to earn His grace. He does not need me to be perfect. He does not need me to give Him everything I’ve ever done.

Shannon Popkin (21:42) Mm -hmm.

Vera (21:50) I can’t do it. I’m always gonna fail. I’m always gonna fail. to hear these words, it’s like when we chose this verse, it’s like such a cornerstone of the faith. For it is by grace you have been saved. And I remember being like, I’m gonna write on this one. This one’s like a little bit worn out, which is like such a bad way to look at this verse. But I felt that way. And then as I was writing, I was like, my goodness, I needed to be reminded of this, that I cannot earn or work for…

Shannon Popkin (22:04) Right? Yeah,

Mmm.

Vera (22:15) what God has on offer for me. And when I wake up and I start to earn and work for the approval of everybody else, the anxiety, the stress, the like buzz that I feel versus when I remember that this grace I have received from the Lord is free. There’s nothing I have to do. It’s just like a beautiful, if we can get this right, it’s such a foundation

Shannon Popkin (22:33) and

Vera (22:40) who we are that we can launch off into those other topics

Shannon Popkin (22:44) Yeah, so true. It’s so foundational. You probably don’t know, I wrote a book called Comparison Girl, Lessons from Jesus on Me, Free Living in a Measure Up World. And so this is just exactly like I too am a perfectionist and I love to measure up and I, feel both of them. feel all of this inadequacy and pain and struggle when I don’t measure up and all of this pride and.

self -assurance and self -reliance when I do measure up and both of them are a problem. What I think is so intriguing is that when Jesus encountered people who were doing exactly what we do, like measuring, comparing, to, know, born perfectionists, whatever, he was constantly talking about how his kingdom is different. Like, yeah, I get it that that’s how things are in the world. Like James says, if you have bitter…

Vera (23:23) Mm -hmm.

Shannon Popkin (23:29) bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts. This is not the wisdom that comes from above. This is wisdom that is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. Like we are being influenced by this world when we’re trying to measure up, when we’re always pushing ourselves and we cannot rest. And so Jesus was constantly countering and he had these pithy little upside down statements of like, you know, the greatest is the servant, whoever exalts themselves, they’re going to be humbled. Whoever puts themselves last, they’re going to be the first in the kingdom. So it’s

Vera (23:38) Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Mm. Mm -hmm.

Shannon Popkin (23:57) The kingdom’s different. It’s not like this world. And the picture that I love is when the disciples are arguing about who’s the greatest and Jesus says, okay, you want to be great in the kingdom? I’ll tell you how to be great. Like be like this little baby. You know, he takes the baby and he puts the baby among these disciples. they’re probably in Peter’s house at that point, because it says they were on their way to Capernaum when they’re having this argument.

Vera (24:11) Mm -hmm.

Shannon Popkin (24:22) argument. So he puts the baby in the middle and at that point disciples would stand. So I just picture this room full of adult men standing and this little tiny baby in the midst of them, maybe a toddler. He says, be like the baby. The baby is not the contributor here in this room. He’s not the one who’s like, we’re going to march into this kingdom. We’re going to set up this kingdom and he’s going to get a really important role. No, he is the recipient.

He’s the receiver. It is by grace that you have been saved. You’re the baby. You’re the recipient. God is not looking at you saying, you please get out there and do something big? Do something better. Contribute, come on. Stop being a bench warmer here. Get off your butt and get busy. That’s just not the message. And if it were, what would it turn us into? It would turn us into those disciples who are trying to elbow past.

Vera (25:00) Mm -hmm.

Yes. Yes.

Yes, yes.

Shannon Popkin (25:12) Right? And, and always measure up, always outdo. And our kingdom that we’re part of is completely the opposite of that. Like we just get to be the baby. Like what? I don’t.

Vera (25:24) I needed to hear that again this morning. It’s just like, I always need to hear that. I always need to hear that. had a friend recently, I was getting ready to do this big thing and I was a little bit, not nervous, I was anxious and excited, I would say. And I was struggling with, I sometimes struggle with fatigue and a part of that is feeling anxious. And she grabbed me by my face.

with my face in her hands and she said, Jesus just loves

Period.

You don’t have to do anything. And just to receive those words. And it’s like, I’m still here trying to receive those words every single day. And I think maybe I wasn’t super clear earlier, but like, I’m talking to all of you hyper performance driven people. Like, it’s very hard to recognize this because everybody around you loves this about you. You are their champion.

Shannon Popkin (26:16) Yes, I know, yeah.

Vera (26:19) You are celebrated for how every year you’ve gotten better and your results have been more and look at her, she does it all. You are being championed for the shackles you have put around your own hands. And the Lord is like, take those off, I just love you. And if this year’s results are lower than last year’s results, I love

Shannon Popkin (26:33) yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I think there’s something really intriguing about that. So it’s almost like those of us who do have a measure of success, right? And you have, right, with your sports, with your new ministry, right? I’ve tasted different measures of success and that almost puts us at a disadvantage, right? Because there is never a point where you’re going to feel like, okay, now I can coast.

Vera (27:03) Mm. Mm. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (27:10) I have achieved this. It’s like once your book comes out and it gets best, exactly, exactly. And there’s always another goal. Like if one book does well and the second one doesn’t, like that’s really hard because then you might not get a book contract for the third, right? And there’s always, always striving, always.

Vera (27:15) What’s next, Vera? What’s next, Shannon? You know?

Mm -hmm.

Shannon Popkin (27:31) driving ourselves. yeah, I just had a book being considered by a publisher and I literally lost sleep over it. Like I literally lost sleep. My husband’s like, what? It’s like, what’s the downside? Like if it gets approved, you know, you think you get to write another book and you get to serve the Lord and encourage people with truth. If you don’t you’re still doing meaningful work. Exactly.

Vera (27:37) Mm -hmm.

Then you get to encourage people in the Lord.

Shannon Popkin (27:54) It’s like there is no downside and yet, and so this, yeah, I love how you said it’s exactly what people love you for and are championing you and like, Vera, you’re amazing. Look how much you can do for us. or look what we can cheer for that you’ve accomplished is the thing that puts the shackles back on your wrist. So I love that friend taking your face and her hands. And that’s really her saying like, no, wait, this is what’s true about you.

we just wrote a teen version of Comparison Girl, Comparison Girl for teens and you know, we talked a lot about beauty and I think that’s one of the ways that we as young women, it’s what we look like and always driving ourselves, always perfectionism and all of that. And we talked about

Jesus’s words in the Sermon of the Mount, he talked about the parable of the wise and foolish builder and he’s like, the one who’s gonna build her life on rock that’s not gonna wash away is the one who listens to my words. the wise builder is the one who listens. Like Jesus is comparing like the one whose life is secure is the one who listens to my words. So whether you’re trying to measure up with your appearance or your performance or

Vera (28:49) Mm

Mm -hmm.

Shannon Popkin (29:02) you know, your relationships or your work, whatever it is, are you going to listen to his words about you? Or are you going to build your life on sand? because it could be washed away in a moment,

Vera (29:09) Mm -hmm.

But my seven -year -old, just yesterday, I was up close to his face giving him a kiss and he’s like, mom, you got some white hairs in there. I like, I sure do. And he’s like, you’re turning into a grandma. I was like, okay, that was a lot. But I think what you’re saying, it’s like, I think also about you must pay the most careful attention there for so that you do not drift away.

Shannon Popkin (29:25) Yeah. Yeah.

Vera (29:34) Listen to the words. It’s like, pay the most careful attention. Listen to Jesus’s, listen to my words. Okay, so like that’s kind of the point of it. If you aren’t listening to his words, you don’t know what his words are. So instead you’re building your house on the sand that is plentiful. Think of how much sand is on the beach. It’s like, open your Instagram app and you will see all the ads for all the swipe ups for this beauty product and

Shannon Popkin (29:58) Yes, girl. Mm -hmm.

Vera (30:00) dress and this nail polish and whatever the things are, you need to whatever. You guys get it. It’s as many as the grains of sand on the beach or you can build on the rock, but you have to know it. And that’s why I’m so passionate about actually knowing God’s word. So in those moments of weakness where you’re

Shannon Popkin (30:12) Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Vera (30:22) going to build on the sand. You’re going to the Instagram because you feel crummy about yourself. You’re like, I’m going to buy this thing to make me feel better about myself. It’s those words of God about how am I accepted? it’s by grace I’ve been saved. Here I am. Yeah. The love that the Father has lavished on you, that you should be called a child of God. You’re a child of God. When you can remember the truths,

Shannon Popkin (30:36) I already am. I already am. Yeah, I’ve already been. Yes. Child.

Vera (30:47) Those are so firm. Those are the firm foundation. But it’s really easy, it’s really easy when you don’t know those truths to be confused by what is true.

Shannon Popkin (30:50) Mm -hmm.

Yeah, or by what the world says. Like these false narratives that get so ingrained, they’re ingrained into our culture. It just seems like logical and easy to accept. And we have to know the truth and how it differs. All right, so you and I are gonna get real. We’re gonna get real here, okay? I’m gonna ask you a question where I wanna go with this is how can we live like it’s true?

Vera (30:59) Yes.

Shannon Popkin (31:17) that it is by grace that we have been saved, that we are already accepted, that we are already counted as children of God. And so Vera, what is the temptation right now that you have to drive yourself with perfectionism to measure up? Like what’s the thing in front of you that you would be tempted to live like this is not

Vera (31:39) That’s a really good question. I think that I tend to want to live as if everybody else’s opinions of me are the most important thing. I make an idol of really good things. I want to be a really great coworker, like our team. I don’t want to let anybody

I wanna be a really great leader. I wanna point everybody to Jesus. I don’t wanna let anybody down on in our social media following and in our membership. I wanna be a really great wife. I don’t wanna let anybody down all the time. Every relationship is elevated. And so I walk around, I’ve built this little tower. It’s like I’m standing on top of this tower trying to hold it all or I’m holding a tray with all these things and it’s built so high. It’s like touching the sky and I’m trying to hold all.

These relationships would be perfect for them.

Shannon Popkin (32:26) And your tower is built on sand. it, yeah, it could just wash away out from under you at any moment.

Vera (32:30) Because it’s built on

at any moment. And so my temptation is to wake up in the morning and to start doing. It’s really easy with three small kids to wake up in the morning and start doing and buzzing. I think the pandemics, you know, it’s four years in the rear view, but it still has had an impact on me.

But like I’ve been in the morning waking up, whether a kid is up with me or not, most of the time they are. While they eat breakfast, I’m praying, I’m writing out small prayers, like one line, sometimes one word.

I’m reading a She Reads Truth Bible study right now on remembrance and remembering all the Lord, all He has done for me. And it just puts me in a place of, okay, I don’t have to wake up and go. so that has been, I mean, that’s the biggest thing. I can start with the Lord, it’s just, I remember that I want my feet on the rock today, you know?

Shannon Popkin (33:18) Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. What he says. And you know, the irony of that is you could turn all of those things that you just mentioned into another checklist, right? Just say.

Vera (33:35) That’s exactly right. And that’s what actually at the beginning of the Hosanna revival, maybe it came with a little insert and was like, don’t go back and fill in days that you miss unless it’s like one day and you like really wanted to write something down that you prayed for, then go ahead. But like, don’t don’t retrofill these things. That’s not the point. I was like, I actually needed to hear that. Like, that’s how much of a perfectionist I am, you

Shannon Popkin (33:50) Yeah, that’s not the point. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, same. I totally get that.

Okay, so what’s going to happen then when a coworker complains about you or your husband feels like you never have time for him or your kids say, you know, you’re a bad mommy or something, you know, so what are you going to do then? What are you going to do when

Vera (34:14) This actually recently happened and I go to panic. Like I go to panic when I feel tension like that. And so we were in a meeting, four of us on the team and I felt this tension and I did not like it. And so the call ended and I immediately wanted to call and apologize for nothing I had done. Cause I so badly needed everybody to feel good. And I, yes. And so instead,

Shannon Popkin (34:31) Mm -hmm.

Yeah, that acceptance,

Vera (34:38) This was like one of the most painful adult things I’ve ever done. I sat in my uncomfort for, in a good way. Like it’s not because I didn’t want there to be resolution, but I was going to go and fix something that in a way that was only so I could be accepted again. And so instead I like let, let it sit for a day or two. And then I went to my sister in Christ and I said, Hey, this, this is, I heard this. seemed like you were really frustrated.

And we worked it out. And the reality is, is that was so much healthier. Instead of me going and apologizing for something I didn’t even do just to get back in an accepted mode. And so I think for me, a big thing is when those moments come is to take a breath and be like, okay, what’s motivating my action right now? What’s motivating me? I don’t like this discomfort. Okay, so I have a couple options and am I going to fix it and fluster around?

Shannon Popkin (35:09) Mm -hmm.

Yeah,

Mm -hmm.

Vera (35:31) or I’m just gonna sit in it for a second here and get to the root of this, you know?

Shannon Popkin (35:35) Yeah, yeah, and I love that, that you were kind of like noticing I did not sin here. And so an apology is actually inappropriate when I have not sinned. And it’s actually saying something more about me and my striving than the reality of the situation. So that is so good.

Vera (35:45) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Shannon Popkin (35:55) So, and I’ve got similar, like I’m a pleaser too. I just, want to always be measuring up and I, yeah, I don’t, I to so many of the things that you say.

Vera (36:06) Mm

Shannon Popkin (36:06) So thank you Vera for this fabulous conversation. So enjoyed getting to know you a little bit and tell our listeners where they can find the Dwell Differently book and other resources.

Vera (36:11) Yes.

Yes, so you can go to DwellDifferently .com. You’ll see the membership there. You’ll see the book is on that page. And at the least, follow us on social media, DwellDifferently. And you can memorize right along with us. We post every day about the verse we’re memorizing. You can see the design and quiz yourself. It’s just like a really practical way to, okay, I’m gonna do this really small to start. One verse has the power to completely transform our lives. So start with one. That’s kind of our hope for everybody.

Shannon Popkin (36:27) Mm -hmm.

Vera (36:45) I have a question, Shannon. One question. Would it be okay? I would love for your listeners to be able to try the first month free of the membership. We do that sometimes and I just want people to be encouraged to try it out. Okay, what word should they type in? You tell me and I’ll make sure we have a code set up for

Shannon Popkin (36:47) sure,

I

Yay, let’s do it. How can they do

Ooh, what should we do? Well, we talked about Jesus’ words being the rock. So let’s say the rock, the rock, let’s do it.

Vera (37:08) Okay, how about the rock? Okay, use the rock and we’ll give you your first month free on the membership and you guys can try it out. And seriously, we just, desire for y ‘all to hear the word, to memorize it and know it and just see how, I always say like, if God spoke everything out of nothing, he spoke it. These words that were memorized, don’t you think that they have the power to transform your life? It will.

Shannon Popkin (37:27) Mm -hmm.

Yes and amen. I love it. So thank you so much. This was fabulous.

Vera (37:37) Thanks Shannon.