Shannon Popkin (00:00) we are back with Becky Harling for part two of a conversation about cultivating deeper connections in a lonely world. This is her new book with Moody Publishers. Becky is an author, a speaker. She’s from Colorado where she lives with her husband and she hosts the Connected Mom podcast. Welcome back, Becky. It’s so good to have you.

Becky Harling (00:23) Hey Shannon, it’s great to be here with you.

Shannon Popkin (00:26) So we’ve been talking about loneliness in this media driven world and we’ve been looking at a Bible story about these two sisters, Rachel and Leah. And we talked last time about how it’s really interesting. God didn’t them both beautiful. He didn’t cause them both to have children at the same time, right? He gave a little more to some to one, a little more to the other.

Becky Harling (00:36) Mm-hmm.

No.

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (00:52) And they had to grapple with this. And so we wrapped up our conversation last time talking about Leah with baby number four saying, this time I will praise the Lord. And I just wonder if you have ever experienced the freedom that comes from finally just saying, God, this time I’m gonna praise you.

you ever felt that freedom?

Becky Harling (01:16) You know, I learned that freedom during a very interesting stage in my life, Shannon. I was diagnosed with cancer at 42. We were still very much in the thick of raising our kids. And I remember calling a mentor and saying, Hey, will you pray with me? I’ve just been diagnosed with breast cancer. I’m facing a double complete mastectomy. And she did pray with me, but then she said, I want to challenge you for the next five days to start every morning.

with 20 minutes of praise. And I thought, that’s a ridiculous thing to ask me. I mean, I hardly feel like jumping up and down saying, hallelujah, I’ve got cancer. But she said, well, I’m not asking you to praise God for cancer. I’m asking you to praise God for who he is above the cancer. And Shannon, what happened in those five days was nothing short of miraculous.

As I got down on my knees every morning and I would listen to worship music and sometimes I would praise my way through the alphabet, different character traits of God, I would let the worship music prompt my praise. God’s presence came so close to me. And now it’s 25 years later and I still do that. You cannot praise God and not be changed. You can’t really intentionally praise God and not feel his presence. And so if you’re lonely,

I always say start with praise. Start by praising God intentionally every day that He’s never going to leave you. He’s never going to forsake you. He’s always going to be there and He’s always going to love you. And watch your connection with Him grow. And then from there, as we had talked about in the last episode, you’ll be able to form deeper attachments with other people.

Shannon Popkin (02:40) you

That’s so, so good. It reminds me of a conversation I just had with a girl who is single and not loving the fact that she is single. And we were just talking about that over coffee, just that heartache in her life. And I said, you know what, can I just share my perspective on your life? I said, you’ve just listed out all of the things that you’re involved in right now, and you have a very fruitful.

Becky Harling (03:11) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (03:30) You’re leading this Bible study, you’re mentoring these girls, you’re doing this ministry, you’re serving in all these different ways. have this amazing fruitful life. And I just wonder if that’s God’s plan for this season because I said, you know what, if you were married and had little ones, you couldn’t be doing these amazing things. hands would be tied a little bit more. have to be home. You couldn’t be out.

Becky Harling (03:30) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (03:55) so it was so interesting to watch her mood and countenance and The words she was using shift in that conversation as we rehearsed all of the wonderful things in her life All the things that she was so grateful for our prayer at the end She was praising God just like you said was

Becky Harling (04:08) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (04:14) praising him for all of the blessings by lifting our eyes from the gifts or the lack of gifts to the giver. But I want to, I want to go back to your cancer story just for a second. I’m so sorry that you had to go through that at that pivotal point.

Becky Harling (04:27) you know, Shannon, now

I look back though and cancer was so clarifying for me because I realized, you know, before then everything was about serving Jesus. And through cancer, I learned to just enjoy Jesus and sit at his feet. And I also clarified what’s important in my life because I don’t want to just go at such a top speed pace that I don’t have time for relationships.

Shannon Popkin (04:44) Wow. Yeah.

Becky Harling (04:56) you know, because that leaves you lonely.

Shannon Popkin (04:59) that’s so good. So enjoying the communion with the Lord in the loneliness. think that’s, you know, we see that in Jesus’s life. He was consistently pulling away to the lonely places to be with the Father. He needed that first. And so, and I see like Leah doing this here in this verse where this is baby number five. I’m in Genesis chapter 29.

Becky Harling (05:06) Yeah.

Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (05:23) And she says, this time I will praise the Lord. And she names this baby Judah. talked last time about how the first three babies, it’s like she’s bringing this little baby to her husband saying, maybe this time he’ll see me. Maybe this time he’ll love me. Maybe this time he’ll be attached to me. But instead now with baby number four, she’s holding that baby and she’s saying this time, her eyes are on the Lord. This time I will praise him. She’s enjoying.

Becky Harling (05:35) Love me.

Shannon Popkin (05:50) just his presence in her life and this gift he’s given her.

Becky Harling (05:53) So I want to interject something here, Shannon, because you mentioned the woman who was single. And I think a lot of times people that are single think I won’t be lonely if I’m married. And married people often are lonely. And another thing that happened to me through that whole journey of praising God is, you know, when Steve, my husband,

would get really busy in ministry and I would think, well, he doesn’t have time for me. You know, I would become insecure And as I sunk deeper into my relationship with God, I began to feel so secure in God’s love that I was able to love Steve out of the overflow of a full heart. And I feel like that’s important to say here because when women are lonely, sometimes if they’re married, they look

completely to their husbands, like, fill my needs, fill my needs, fill my needs. And that’s what Leo was doing here, right? Once you change your focus and you are looking to the Lord and you allow him to feel the deep cracks and crevices of your heart, you’re able to love your husband out of the overflow of a full heart. And that’s a much deeper connection.

we want the deeper connections, but we can never look to another person to fill all of our needs because Jesus is the only one that can do that. So Leah looked to Jacob to love her. And, you know, yes, it’s right for wives to expect their husbands to love them.

Shannon Popkin (07:15) Yeah.

Yeah.

Becky Harling (07:28) But

the only one who can completely love Leah is God himself. And so in our relationships, we’ve got to keep this order correct, where we worship God first, and then we see our relationships as the overflow.

Shannon Popkin (07:32) That’s true.

Becky Harling (07:46) from a heart that is fully loved and has found deep belonging. Because in the end, our hearts long for belonging. And that’s actually right and good because God created us that way. He created us to need Him and to need others.

Shannon Popkin (07:54) Yeah. Yes. Yes, it’s so true.

Mm-hmm, it’s so true. okay, before we go segue to Rachel, I just wanna back up and look at the meta-narrative and notice the fact that Jesus, the promised one, the Messiah, is going to come from this line of Leah. So, you know, he doesn’t come from the one who’s most lovely, most desirable, the one who’s self-sufficient,

Becky Harling (08:25) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (08:27) the gospel is not the story, it’s the story for the desperate person. It’s for the one who can’t save themselves. This is not a self-salvation story of the ones who rise above. It’s the story of the one who comes up short, who can’t fix their pain, who can’t fix their brokenness, is the story of the gospel. And so it’s through Leah, the desperate one, that the line

Becky Harling (08:31) Mm-hmm.

Yep.

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (08:52) of Christ comes and I just think that’s so precious. But Rachel’s story, we’re going to see more idolatry, know, a different way of expressing idolatry. So we see Leah

Becky Harling (08:59) Mm-hmm.

I get it.

Shannon Popkin (09:07) bringing each of these babies to her husband saying, now will you love me? Now will you love me? Rachel doesn’t come that way. She doesn’t come saying, Jacob, now will you love me? She knows she’s got his love. What she doesn’t have is the children that wants to have. And so she comes making demands on Jacob. And either way, she’s not coming to the Lord appropriately. So let me just read this of verses from Genesis 30.

Becky Harling (09:11) Right.

Shannon Popkin (09:32) Rachel saw that she was not bearing Jacob any children and she became jealous of her sister. So she said to Jacob, give me children or I will die. I kind of picture her hands wringing his neck, right? As she says that Becky. But then it says Jacob became angry and he said, am I in the place of God who has kept you from having children? What do you see here, Becky? What’s interesting?

Becky Harling (09:45) Yeah.

Well,

you know, what’s interesting to me is we’re talking about loneliness, right? And we want these deeper connections with people. And when you go to your husband and you say, give me children or I will die. What do you think that’s going to do to your connection? I mean, this is kind of like a no brainer. Jacob got mad. It didn’t increase his love for Rachel.

Shannon Popkin (10:10) Ha

Becky Harling (10:17) It didn’t increase his connectedness with her. He probably felt like backing up. He’s probably like, Hey, I’m going to go hang out with Liat tonight because you’re insane. And so what I see in this story is we, we have to be careful.

to first and foremost, set our hearts on God. But how we communicate with our spouses, with our friends, with our children is going to impact how lonely we feel. Because if we’re demanding an irate with people, it’s not gonna increase our connection. People are gonna wanna back up from us.

Shannon Popkin (10:47) Hmm.

Yeah, Rachel is this, I mean, I call her a control girl. You know, she’s trying, she wants control and she’s trying to control Jacob. And when we lunge after the people in our lives, trying to control them, to get them to meet our needs, you’re exactly right. It just creates more distance. I remember interviewing a whole bunch of people when I wrote Control Girl. like there were all of these stories about who are trying

Becky Harling (11:01) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (11:26) to get their families to be together. trying to pull them together for holidays. They’re trying to make sure everybody comes at the right time for Thanksgiving. women who are aging and they’re feeling like, I’m losing control, I’m losing with my family. like they’re ringing the necks of their

loved ones like give me your attention or I will die or give me these grandchildren or I will die give me whatever it is that you need or I will die and people just don’t respond well to that.

Becky Harling (11:53) No,

control will never increase your connection, ever. If you try to control, people will try to back up. So that’s a narrative we need to change if we want those deeper connections. If we want to feel less lonely, stop trying to control people.

Shannon Popkin (11:58) Mm-mm, no.

Yeah, I told a story about my mom and how taught piano lessons and she would pick my kids up from school on Tuesdays and she would make them homemade cookies and then she would make, they called it feast night. I’m not a very good cook, Becky. And so my kids would be like pinching their noses and gulping down whatever I made for dinner. And one time my son said,

Becky Harling (12:24) Mm.

That’s

Shannon Popkin (12:36) his sister, said, it’s okay, Lynn’s tomorrow’s feast night. So they would look forward. They’d look forward to this. My mom is a great cook. so then after I stopped piano lessons, I just assumed feast night would be over. And my kids were like, no, know mama will still wanna have us. I know she will. And so I asked my mom and she’s like, of course I wanna continue on with feast night. so there’s this contrast that I see between that of her

Becky Harling (12:39) cute!

Shannon Popkin (13:05) like serving them, she, doesn’t place demands, still hosts feast night 20 some years later, but there’s never a demand. Sometimes we can come other times we can’t sometimes one family member can come another can’t, but there’s never any obligation, any demand. And I think that changes the whole demeanor. She is not ringing anybody’s neck saying you have to be in that seat or I’m going to die. Right.

Becky Harling (13:29) Right.

Shannon Popkin (13:32) There’s just a different demeanor of I’m here to serve you. It’s like here.

Becky Harling (13:35) Yeah,

it’s humility, Shannon. if you come to relationships without humility, they’re not going to be really connected. But your mom, by offering that feast night and just saying, come if you can, but you don’t have to come, that’s being humble. And that’s a beautiful thing.

Humility increases our connectedness, whereas control diminishes and divides.

Shannon Popkin (14:00) It’s so true. And so we see Rachel trying to control all of the people and all of the situations. We won’t take time to go through all of the different ways, she like, there’s some mandrakes that were found. And so she’s trying to leverage the thing with the mandrakes, like give me the mandrakes.

Becky Harling (14:20) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (14:24) trades the mandrakes so that Leah, her sister wife can sleep with the husband. I mean, It’s like she’s passing out sleep with Jacob calendars with her name beside every day on the calendar. like in this tug of war situation with her sister. She’s trying to fill her side of the family tree. It’s not about.

Becky Harling (14:29) Yeah.

Yes, yes

Shannon Popkin (14:44) the children, it’s about winning. It’s about this competition between the two of them. And then in another scene, she steals one of her father’s idols and it’s absolutely ridiculous. She’s hiding it by sitting on it. Like is what she’s putting her hope in, this thing that she can sit on.

Becky Harling (14:46) Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah,

Shannon Popkin (15:00) she is turning everywhere else but to God. That’s the thing that I think is so interesting in her story. She’s trying to control it all from a human perspective, but she can’t. She is not in control. None of those idols in her life are in control. Only God. is the one who gives children. And so what do you see in that part of the story where Rachel

Becky Harling (15:05) Yeah.

Yes.

Shannon Popkin (15:26) It’s just this really unsatisfying story, isn’t it?

Becky Harling (15:29) Yeah, I like to wonder, did Rachel die happy? Cause she dies when giving birth to Benjamin, I tend to think she didn’t die very happy. I mean, she gives birth to Joseph and God redeems Joseph. I love God’s redemption throughout this whole story, you know, from Leah.

Shannon Popkin (15:40) I don’t think so.

Becky Harling (15:50) comes Judah, who is in the line of Jesus, from Rachel, who’s completely messed up, comes Joseph, who is really a picture of Jesus in many ways. so God redeems it, but I don’t think that either of these women lived the well-connected life that God has intended for us. They didn’t live well-connected to God. They didn’t live this deep,

Shannon Popkin (16:11) No.

Becky Harling (16:16) rooted connection with Jacob. They certainly didn’t enjoy deep connection with each other that’s a lonely life in the end.

Shannon Popkin (16:21) Yeah,

such a lonely life and in a thirsty life. Like she has Joseph and she names him Joseph. means may he add. And so she finally has the baby she’s longed for. And she turns to God and says, yep, and I need another one too. isn’t enough. Like this baby isn’t enough.

Becky Harling (16:35) huh.

Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (16:41) And then she has one more baby and she dies in childbirth. And so she lives this thirsty, unsatisfying life, always trying to control, always trying to manipulate, always turning to these other idols, very disconnected. mean, women who are, yes, women who are controlling and manipulative, they’re not satisfied. They do not die happy, fulfilled lives. They push everybody away. They’re disconnected and they’re lonely.

Becky Harling (16:55) It’s a very lonely life. Yeah.

No.

Shannon Popkin (17:11) So what’s the antithesis? How can we live like this story is a true story? It’s a negative story, but how can we turn it and live like it’s true?

Becky Harling (17:20) I think there are several things. first of all, we have to do everything we can to cultivate the deeper connection with God, first and foremost. The giver of the gifts over the gifts themselves, including children. I know too many moms

who worship their kids and God calls every mom to lay their child down before him. And so we worship the giver of the gifts rather than gifts themselves. We have to stop comparing. I mean, we have to be brutal with ourselves. You when I find myself comparing myself to other people, I have to stop and I become a fast confessor. Lord, forgive me. I’m comparing. That’s not right. It’s not helpful.

Shannon Popkin (17:38) So true.

Yes.

Becky Harling (18:03) And so cleanse me and give me a new attitude. And so we’ve got to repent of that. And then we need to be intentional about cheering for other people, you know, and saying, Hey, God’s doing great things through your life. There’s, know, cheering for others is a great way to increase your connection. Cheering for others is a great way to

let them know their value. And as you seek to heal somebody else’s loneliness, you’re going to find that your own loneliness is healed because there’s a reciprocal factor there, right? So if I’m affirming you, you’re going to feel blessed and I’m going to feel more connected to you. And so I think those are some really valuable lessons we can get from this story if we want to live that deeply connected life that God has called us to.

Shannon Popkin (18:39) Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Okay, so let me talk those back to you. So we can live like it’s true that God is the giver, right? He is the giver and we can live like he is God by appreciating the giver and not just the gifts, right? second, we can praise him for the gifts, right? Praise him. That’s what we saw Leah do. We saw her saying, this time I will praise the Lord.

Becky Harling (19:02) Right.

Praise is key. Yes.

Shannon Popkin (19:20) This was a turning point in her life and you just see the freedom of that. I’m not gonna try to get something from this baby anymore. I’m just gonna praise the Lord. And then the third one is like cheering, not competing, not comparing, but cheering. What if Rachel and Leah could have turned to each other and said, congratulations on another baby. I love you, I’m so happy for you. What if they could have been each other’s deepest ally?

Becky Harling (19:29) Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (19:48) And I know they were living in an impossible situation and so many of us are, right? So many of us are in impossible situations, but there is something and I have experienced it. There’s something that happens when I choose to, I am not going to let this jealousy and envy fester. I’m gonna pick up the phone and I’m gonna say, I am so happy for you that this thing happened. I’m so happy for the single woman who’s.

Becky Harling (20:07) Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Shannon Popkin (20:16) friend gets engaged or whose sister gets engaged, I’m so happy for you. I’m gonna be there cheering for you every step of the way. For the woman who has the baby, right? Or for the woman who gets the promotion or for the woman who has the beautiful marriage when yours is falling apart. To be the one to say, you know what, I love you, I am cheering for you and I’m gonna rejoice with the one who’s rejoicing.

Becky Harling (20:20) Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Shannon Popkin (20:44) And I’m going to ask that you mourn with me as I mourn. What if we could be vulnerable enough to say, and there’s one more thing, I just want to call attention to the fact that I think we need to live like it’s true that God’s hand is in whatever it is in our measuring cup. Like whatever has been placed there has been placed there by His hand. And so we’re either going to accept that or we’re going to wrestle with it.

Becky Harling (21:06) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (21:11) And so I just think there’s like, there’s just so much freedom when we stop wrestling, we stop the tug of war.

Becky Harling (21:11) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (21:18) can just say, you know what? This is what you have given me, God. You know, like what if Rachel,

could have looked into the little face of Joseph and instead of saying, he add, what if she could have just said, God, have allowed me to be the mom of this one baby. And I mean, it was Joseph for crying out loud. This was an amazing important role that God made her to play. that’s amazing.

Becky Harling (21:36) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (21:41) What if I could just thank God and in who he made me to be. He is God and not me.

Becky Harling (21:45) Yes. Yes.

I just want to say to your listeners, you know, we’ve talked a lot about comparison and, and I want you to just hear like, you may be feeling lonely today and maybe you realize, Hey, I feel lonely because I have been comparing. You can stop, but I also want you to know and not miss the part of the story that you are never alone.

Leah was never alone. Rachel was never alone. You have the Lord he is the one that says, never will I leave you. Never will I forsake you. I am for you and not against you.

Shannon Popkin (22:24) And even, mean, in God’s economy, we’ve talked about this, what you may think of as some great thing, God, it just doesn’t work that way. The gospel is all about the one who is desperate, the one who’s lonely, the one who feels like she’s been given less of a lot in life. God is for you, he is with you, his eye is upon you. Becky, there was a time when my little boy was playing soccer.

And he’s just like maybe five or six and he comes off the field and he says, mom, I looked over and I saw you were talking to your friend. You were not even looking at me. I felt like you weren’t even my mom. way to call me out. But you know what? I love that story because that’s what a child feels. A child feels like your eyes should be on me. You’re my mom.

Becky Harling (23:06) call you out.

Shannon Popkin (23:17) feel that as children of God, right? We feel like your eyes should be on me. And I’m gonna call you out on that, God. Your eyes should be on me. Like, I wanna know that you see me. And that’s what I see in the story of Leah, the girl who felt like nobody loved her, nobody saw her. God’s eyes were on her. It says in black and white text, I’m gonna read that verse one more time, the Lord saw that Leah was not loved. He saw her.

He saw her situation and that’s true of you too. God sees you, he knows exactly what you’re going through and he is with you when you find that love and acceptance in him, it opens your heart to other people. So, Becky, thank you so much for writing this book, Cultivating Deeper Connections. It’s with Moody Publishers. Cultivating Deeper Connections in a Lonely World. Where can we find this?

Becky Harling (23:44) Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, you can get it on Amazon. You can get it at MoodyPublishers.com. can get it anywhere Christian books are sold. And I would love your listeners to visit me at my website, BeckyHarling.com. There’s a bunch of free resources there and I would love to have your listeners visit me there.

Shannon Popkin (24:31) I would love that too. So Becky, thank you so much for being with us today. You are a blessing.

Becky Harling (24:35) Yes, thank you.