Carolyn Lacey (00:00) it’s You I think sometimes we are tempted to imagine God eye rolling in exasperation, look at that one, he’s done it again. That is not what we see here. That’s not his character.

Shannon Popkin (00:10) No. Yes.

we have Carolyn Lacey here with us Carolyn is a writer, a conference speaker, and a Bible teacher in the UK. And she served alongside her husband in pastoral ministry for over 25 years. Carolyn currently works part-time for her church as a women’s worker.

and she’s the author of a number of books including the one we’re going to discuss today, Amazed, 30 Days of Growing in Awe of God, which is published by the Good Book Company. Carolyn, welcome to Live Like It’s True.

Carolyn Lacey (00:48) Thanks so much for having me on.

Shannon Popkin (00:51) Well, I just have so enjoyed chatting with you just for a few minutes, getting to know you. I feel like we’ve had several guests from the other side of the pond recently. ⁓ Katie Morgan is, do know Katie? You’ve worked with her, right? Yes. So I think, you know, does anybody with a cool accent makes me want to hear you? So you have that to your advantage. So. ⁓

Carolyn Lacey (01:05) Yeah, yeah, I go with her. It’s great.

Shannon Popkin (01:17) You know, I didn’t ask you this before we hit play, so I don’t know if you’re going to have an answer, but Carolyn, do you remember a time a time just blowing it big and feeling just a lot of regret over something you did maybe as a kid or a teenager?

Carolyn Lacey (01:32) Yeah, and I can think of several times. I mean, as a child, that’s really part of my testimony is that I felt like I was always in trouble for the first probably 11, 12 years of my life and beyond that. mean, I…

Shannon Popkin (01:45) I’m sorry dear, but I can’t picture that. seem very,

yes, you don’t seem like a troublemaker, but yes, okay, I’ll take your word for it.

Carolyn Lacey (01:52) ⁓ Yeah, I

in a fairly strict home, but my school environment was fairly rough and ready. yeah, I just remember feeling I’m never going to get this right. And I would write lists of how to be good tomorrow. And I would mess it up. I would be in trouble. I would be grounded or have some kind of punishment.

Shannon Popkin (02:13) Wow.

Carolyn Lacey (02:19) I just, I realised I just can’t do this. And so when I really heard and understood the gospel that I don’t need to be good enough for God, I can’t be good enough for my parents, I can’t be good enough for my teachers, I can’t be good enough for God, but I don’t need to be good enough for God. That was what changed everything for me, actually. So yeah, feeling like that is a big part of my story from from childhood right through.

Shannon Popkin (02:43) Wow. Did you grow up in a Christian home then?

Carolyn Lacey (02:46) Yeah, I did. My parents were the first people ever in both of their families to be converted. so they did a great job. They were sort of making it up as they went along. And I think it was just in a time and place and culture where I suppose things were perhaps quite legalistic. There was less talk about grace. It was more about doing the right thing, being right as a Christian. And of course, we

Shannon Popkin (03:13) Yeah.

Carolyn Lacey (03:15) We just can’t, can we? even now, we might get into this as we’re talking, but sometimes now I think, I’ve been a Christian for 41, 42 years, I’m still struggling with some of the same sins. I’m still messing up in some of the same ways. And you just think, wow, what is that?

Shannon Popkin (03:27) ⁓ I know. Yeah.

Mm-hmm, yeah. No, I can relate.

this story that we’re going to look at, the context is the Israelites have done this horrible thing. I mean, much worse than you or I would have done as a kid.

This is like full blown adult, terrible behavior. And they’ve kind of been caught, right? And that lays the context. So would you mind just kind of catching us up of what’s gone on in Exodus 32 leading up to 33? Could you give us a quick summary?

Carolyn Lacey (04:12) Yeah, sure. I mean, big picture, the Israelites have come out of Egypt through the Red Sea. They’re at the foot of Mount Sinai And then Moses goes up the mountain with his assistant, with Joshua, and they’re up there for 40 days and 40 nights. And basically what’s going on in chapter 32 is the people think, well, he’s been gone too long. We don’t know what’s happened to him.

Essentially, they’re really doubting God’s goodness and God’s word to them. And so they rebel. They say to Aaron, you know, make us a God that we can follow, that we can serve, who will lead us. And so Aaron, Moses’ brother, I mean, what was he thinking? He collected their gold, he made this golden calf, and the people worshiped it. Aaron made an altar, they sacrificed.

they worshipped. ⁓ it says, you know, they, it says something about them sitting down to, they essentially sat down to party, but that’s, that’s not strong enough. There was real revelry because later in, in the chapter where Moses comes down the mountain and sees what’s happened, he sees that they’ve become a laughing stock to their enemies. So we’re not just talking about a little party here. We’re talking about really inappropriate behavior that has dishonored God. mean, the nations knew that the Lord had

brought them from Egypt. So they’ve really, they’ve rebelled against him, they failed to believe in him, they’re disobeying his word, they’re making their own gods. It really is an absolute mess. while this is happening, Moses is up the mountain talking with God and God tells him what’s happened and he says, you know, I’m going to punish them, I’m going to destroy them, I cannot go to Canaan with them because I’ll destroy them. And Moses intercedes for

for them. He really appeals to God’s character and his reputation. You know, what will the nations think that you’ve brought us out of Egypt only to destroy us? So he appeals to God ⁓ not to destroy them ⁓ and God relents. But when Moses goes down the mountain and he sees everything that’s going on, he’s outraged. He enacts some of his own judgment and then he says to them the next day, look, I’m going to basically I’m going to have to go to the Lord.

Shannon Popkin (06:22) you

Carolyn Lacey (06:33) and try and atone somehow for this sin because it’s really serious. And so he goes to speak with the Lord and yeah, where we’re going to pick it up, I guess, in chapter 33 is really his conversation with the Lord. So yeah, it’s a really terrible, terrible time in Israel’s story.

Shannon Popkin (06:56) Yes, they have really blown it. Yeah. And then I think it’s interesting at the beginning of chapter 33, after the Lord says, I want you to just leave. Basically, I want you to leave without me. I want you to just go ahead, go without me. And then there’s this little caveat where it says, now, used to take a tent and put it outside the outside the camp, and he would go and meet with God there in this tent.

And everybody would sort of like stand at attention as Moses is walking. So it’s like this special place, this tent outside of camp. And there’s this special sign, God’s cloud would come over the tent and God, there’s this special relationship, you know, God talked, it says in verse 11, the Lord would speak to Moses face to face as one speaks with a friend. So there’s this special relationship.

And so the people, guess, you know, I just picture them in their tents watching as Moses walks out to the tent. this is a really, it just, think, elevates meeting with God. It elevates who God is and the privilege of meeting with him as a friend. Moses gets to do that.

And now Moses is gonna go have a very important conversation with the Lord with the context of the people really, really blowing it. I mean, They’re devastated. says,

Verse four, when the people heard these distressing words, that the Lord, he was not going to go with them, they began to mourn and no one put on any ornaments. And the reason they didn’t put on these ornaments. Do you see any any parallel between them not putting these ornaments in them, using those ornaments to make this golden calf? Like, is there is there a parallel there?

Carolyn Lacey (08:42) It’s interesting, isn’t it? Because yeah, they’d used this gold that essentially they’d plundered, they’d got from the Egyptians. And they’ve used it in this really shocking way. I mean, if you were there and you had some of your jewelry or ornaments left, you wouldn’t want that anywhere near you at that point. Let me not draw attention even more to the fact that I’ve done this disgraceful thing.

Shannon Popkin (08:48) Yes, from the Egyptians, yeah.

Right. Yes, exactly.

Yes, exactly. I don’t want any part of that. so, and the Lord made that clear. He’s like, ⁓ tell them,

The Lord said to Moses, tell the Israelites, you are a stiff neck people. If I were to even go with you for a moment, I might destroy you. Now take off your ornaments and I will decide what to do with you. And so this anger that’s bubbling to the surface in the Lord. And I think let’s hold on to that picture.

And let’s go on to this conversation the Lord has with Moses in the tent. So

Would you read for us versus 12 through 17 of Exodus 33? We’re reading in the NIV translation.

Carolyn Lacey (09:42) Okay. Okay.

Then Moses said to him, if your presence does not go with us, do not send us up from here. How will anyone know that you are pleased with me and with your people unless you go with us? What else will distinguish me and your people from all the other people on the face of the earth? And the Lord said to Moses, I will do the very thing you have asked because I am pleased with you and I know you by name.

Shannon Popkin (10:38) Okay, so in this interchange, know, they’re meeting here in this tent after the horrible thing has happened. What do you find surprising about this?

Carolyn Lacey (10:49) I mean, there are a few things that are surprising, aren’t there? I mean, the fact that Moses can go and speak with God, we shouldn’t race past that, and that is amazing, isn’t it? And you know, Moses up to this point, he’s also representing the people when he meets with God. And so they’ve done this awful, awful thing. And Moses still knows that he can come before God.

Shannon Popkin (11:00) Yes, yes.

Carolyn Lacey (11:18) and he has quite a bold conversation with the Lord. He’s basically saying, God, you’ve said this, but you’ve not told me who you’re going to send with me and ⁓ teach me your ways. He’s making quite bold requests. Remember this nation is your people. We see, I think, that Moses has grasped enough of God’s character up to this point to know that

Shannon Popkin (11:44) Yes, yeah.

Carolyn Lacey (11:48) that this is right, this is the people that God has chosen, that he’s been faithful to promises made way back to Abraham and Isaac and Jacob. And it gives him a degree of confidence. He also clearly has confidence in God’s character that despite the people’s sin, God may be disposed still to go with them and lead them, you know?

Shannon Popkin (12:14) Yeah, yeah,

yeah, yeah, it’s surprising that he even has the boldness to ask that God not do the very thing he has just said. He’s like, I’m not going with you. I’m not going with you. And Moses is like, could we talk about this? this is that’s a boldness and it’s reliant on the character. I mean, you don’t ask a tyrant in a rage, right? If there is a tyrant in a rage, you don’t go to him and say, no, let’s think about

Carolyn Lacey (12:24) Yeah.

Right.

Shannon Popkin (12:41) what this is gonna look like if you do this, you You don’t have the fortitude to do that with a tyrant. so Moses, he knows the Lord. I was thinking also about,

You know, this whole conversation is about whether God’s going to go with them or not. And I was thinking back to the story of Abraham when God said go to this place, I will show you. And Abram left everything. had this faith. And when he arrived, this is in Genesis 12, when he arrived in the promised land, God appeared to him. I mean, it’s just like this little phrase in there. But I mean, can you even imagine God appeared to him?

And they walk the territory somehow. Abraham walks the territory that God is giving him. And there’s this imagery of him walking with God in this place. So God has always had a people and a place Like that’s the whole arc of the narrative

the overarching narrative of the Bible started with God walking with people in a special place, walking among the trees. And so it’s sort of like recreating that imagery with Abram saying, like, I’m going to make of you a great nation. This is where you’re to live. I’m going to be here with you. And then the end of the story, what we’re looking forward to is God with his people in this special place, you know, walking in the garden.

that new garden city. And so to imagine the people of God going to this place without him, like they’re about to enter to imagine you just go on ahead and I just, can’t be with you. that’s unthinkable. And I remember hearing John Piper

in his book, God is the Gospel. He posed this question asking if you could have heaven, you know, and all of the benefits of heaven, if you could have that without Jesus, you be okay with that? You you could have life eternal, pleasures ever more, know, everything restored. If you could have all that without Jesus, would you be fine with that? And I mean,

Hopefully the answer is no, because what we get in the gospel, the gospel is not, you know, bypass God to get all the things, all the gifts that he has for you. No, the gospel is God himself. He gives us himself. He is the treasure. And just like you noticed with even the privilege of being able to talk with God in this tent, like it’s an honor. Like everybody stands at attention to watch Moses go in there, right? And so to have God’s good gifts, this,

Carolyn Lacey (15:21) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (15:25) land flowing with milk and honey without God himself. Like that’s a travesty. And Moses recognizes that. Moses is saying,

verse 15, if your presence does not go with us, don’t even send us there. I don’t want to go. He would prefer the wilderness, right? Anything else?

Carolyn Lacey (15:44) It’s remarkable that

he knows that, isn’t it? He knows that the promised land means nothing without the promise maker. And he’s grasped that in a way that we often forget. We are enamored by the good things that God gives and not always by God himself. it’s just, you’re right, it’s very interesting that Moses has really grasped that, hasn’t he? There is no point in sending us off into the promised land if you, the promise maker, are not going to be with us.

and it is remarkable.

Shannon Popkin (16:14) Yeah.

Yes, I don’t, I don’t quite know what to make of this, Carolyn, maybe you have some insight, but verse 14, the Lord replied, my presence will go with you and I will give you rest. And then he says, if your presence does not go with us, do not send us up there. is he just

reiterating? Yeah, like a double check.

Carolyn Lacey (16:33) like double check, you know, like you do that sometimes that

you’re like, yeah, so just to clarify, you are going because if you don’t, but do you know what I mean? It does feel like that, just to be clear. And he’s also showing, he’s showing his theology, he’s showing what he understands about God. I mean, I think when we get these passages in the Bible where at a first glance, it might look as though,

Shannon Popkin (16:39) Okay. Okay.

Carolyn Lacey (16:57) you know, is God changing his mind? Well, we know God doesn’t change his mind. He’s immutable, he’s not fickle. we are often, it’s more about the person he’s dealing with, isn’t it? And what he’s leading them through the conversation to know and be reassured about and to affirm about him. And I think we see that happening here. It’s not that, you know, God is blowing this way and that way with the wind, but Moses is being given these opportunities to articulate.

Shannon Popkin (17:01) Right, yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Carolyn Lacey (17:26) for himself and perhaps on behalf of the people all that is true about God’s

Shannon Popkin (17:32) Yes.

Yeah, God isn’t like sulking and pouting and Moses is, you know, drawing him out of his little temper tantrum. No, no, no, no, no, that’s that’s exactly the opposite as we’re going to see in the way that God expresses himself next. ⁓ But, I think it’s interesting, too, verse 16, where he says, How will anyone know that you’re pleased with me and with your people unless you go with us?

Carolyn Lacey (17:38) Right.

Shannon Popkin (17:57) and what else will distinguish me and your people from the other people on the face of the earth. And so in essence, he’s saying the most important thing that everybody needs to know about me, the distinguishing factor about me and about this people is that you’re pleased with us. Right. as the people of God today, is that is that

the thing that we think of as the most distinguishing feature, the thing that we want for the world to know is that God is pleased with us. And even after we’ve blown it so big, right, even even in the context of our horrific sin, right?

Carolyn Lacey (18:39) you know what just struck me when you were saying that? In verse 17, the Lord says back to him, will do the very thing you’ve asked because I’m pleased with you and I know you by name. you know, if we remember that Moses is pointing forward to the Lord Jesus, he’s a type of Christ, he’s got a meditorial role. And we remember, you know, the Father saying, this is my son whom I love, with him I’m well pleased. And I think Moses is

is pointing forward to that. And that is our reality because we are in Christ even though we do these terrible things and we do mess up. Because we are in Christ and we are united to Him, the Lord looks on us and says, you are my child, I love you, I know your name and I love you, with you I am pleased. And we might think, Lord, how can you be pleased with me? I’m such a mess. But because we are in Christ and we belong to Him, the Lord is pleased with us. And so I think in verse 17, we’re just seeing a little

Shannon Popkin (19:24) Yes, yes.

Carolyn Lacey (19:37) point forward to what’s to come in Jesus.

Shannon Popkin (19:41) Yes,

yes, I love that. And I love too that God is responding to exactly the questions that Moses raised. How will anybody know that you’re pleased with me unless you go with us? and the Lord says, I’m going to do the thing you ask because I am pleased with you. And I do know your name. He’s responding to this insecurity that Moses feels like, who am I without you? And he’s like, no.

⁓ I am pleased with you.

I need to know that. I need to know that you are pleased with me. And it’s only because of Christ, right, that we can be pleasing and insight because our sin is so obvious to us. But let’s go on and look at the next part of the conversation Moses has with the Lord. So,

Could you read 18 through 23?

Carolyn Lacey (20:27) Then Moses said, Now show me your glory.’ And the Lord said, I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you and I will proclaim my name the Lord in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. But he said, you cannot see my face for no one may see me and live. Then the Lord said,

There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back, but my face must not be seen.

Shannon Popkin (21:11) So What is surprising about this part?

Carolyn Lacey (21:14) so many things surprise me about this, but the first one is just Moses’ question, now show me your glory. Because if you think about Moses’ history with the Lord up to this point, he first met him in the burning bush. This bush that was on fire, the Lord spoke to him in it, the bush wasn’t consumed. That’s pretty amazing. He then saw all the signs and miracles in Egypt when the Lord was proving who he was to Pharaoh.

You know, he experienced deliverance through the Red Sea, hundreds of thousands of people walking through these walls of water that the Lord has parted for them. And then once they’re through safely, the waters come back over their enemies and they’re destroyed. I mean, that is extraordinary. And then, you know, he’s seen the Lord, the Lord’s glory at Mount Sinai when there was the thunder and lightning and fire and smoke and the sound of a trumpet. You know, he’s experienced all these

extraordinary things that show God’s greatness and glory. And he says, now show me your glory. And I think that’s fascinating for a number of reasons, but not least because I think how easily I am satisfied with bites. You you can have your devotion time in the morning, perhaps you’re reading something, something catches your eye, it strikes you, but there’s 10 minutes till you need to be out the door for work.

know, park it and quickly get going. And ⁓ I just think we’re so easily satisfied with just tiny, tiny tastes of who the Lord is. And Moses is not easily satisfied. He’s saying, I know, I’ve seen, I’ve seen, I’ve seen, and I want more. He wants to know more of God and who he is.

Because I think it’s gone.

Shannon Popkin (23:01) let me just let me interject before you go on to the Lord’s answer because I wanted to comment on that. I agree. That is very surprising. And I’m thinking of the title of your book, Amazed, 30 Days of Growing in Awe of God. You know, do you see it as something that grows? The more we are amazed with God, the more we want to be amazed with God, the more is it sort of like this compounding

thing.

Carolyn Lacey (23:31) Yeah, I think it’s exactly that. The more you taste, the more you want. I think that’s exactly what it is. It’s what we see in Moses and hopefully it’s what we will see in our own lives. The more we grasp glimpses of his greatness and glory, the more we’ll want to know of him. I think that’s exactly how it works.

Shannon Popkin (23:37) Hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah. And I mean, you know, Moses, like you said, he has had all of these experiences and the fact that he only wants more and he asks God for more and God is pleased by that. We’re going to see how pleased God is that he wants more of God and he’s pleased with us when we want more. Have you ever experienced that? Like the more you’re ⁓ in awe of God, the more you’re seeing him in the scriptures, the more you want of him. Do you see that?

Run parallel in your life.

Carolyn Lacey (24:21) Yeah, I do. can think of specific moments when that’s happened, I’m encouraged because I’m seeing it increasingly. ⁓ It’s my practice to read the Bible in a year, every year, and I’ve done it since I was 16. But every year, things wow me more. And so rather than getting bored with it, like you would with some books if you read them that amount of time, it’s, no, no, no, I can’t wait to get to that again next year, because I want to know more.

Shannon Popkin (24:42) Yes.

Carolyn Lacey (24:48) I do see that and I think that’s encouraging. It’s encouraging more.

Shannon Popkin (24:52) That is amazing,

Carolyn. How old are you? Can I ask? 52. And so since age 16, I’m not good at math, but that is a lot of times through the Bible. That’s amazing. And just go ahead.

Carolyn Lacey (24:56) yeah, I’m 52.

Yeah, but

he’s so great that you still realise, ⁓ I’m scratching the surface. It sounds like a lot of times, but if you think about how infinite God is, I mean, I’m scratching the surface.

Shannon Popkin (25:11) Right?

Yes, yeah. I’ve noticed it too, like when I’m writing a book, those are the seasons in life when I have my Bible open all day every day. You know, I’m searching the scriptures. I never am just writing without his word to inform my words. And those seasons, there’s a difference in me. I find that when I go to church, I’m just weeping through worship

And it’s like the text becomes richer and I see more things about the Lord and I want more. It’s like the more I feast on the word, the more I want the word. And so I just I want to throw that out as an encouragement to a weary Christian, to someone who is maybe just even struggling to find time. Maybe this podcast is a replacement for time in the in the word. ⁓

And we hope that your appetite will be wet for this. My goal is always that after this podcast, you’ll go open the Bible yourself and read this story for yourself and maybe have some new questions and new ideas and thoughts as you consider the text. ⁓ But the more that you invest, the more your appetite changes. It’s sort of like going on a, you know, like I’m right now cutting out flour and sugar and it’s really, really hard at the beginning.

But I’m doing it because I’ve done it before and I know that further I go, the more my taste buds will awaken to really good food rather than deadening them with, you know, sugar. just, the more I eat of sugar, the more I want of sugar and the more the rest of the food doesn’t taste good. And I, you know, I have

Carolyn Lacey (26:47) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (26:58) inflammation issues. so and my whole body will just settle down. If I can eliminate these addictive patterns with flour and sugar. And so it’s the same with the Word of God, like, we have so many intakes that deaden our appetite ⁓ for the Lord, right? We have just the busyness of life or entertainment or our work or whatever it is, whatever has our focus has our appetite. And so ⁓ just

making that a priority, going to the Lord, like Moses did, having a special place and a special time and a special relationship. You are a friend of God. He knows your name and you can meet with him anytime you choose. Like it’s an amazing opportunity. Open his word, you know, just enter into that. he

is delighted by your appetite for him. So it’s surprising that Moses asks, now show me your glory. and I also think it’s interesting that he says, show me, right? Because here he’s interacting with the invisible God. God is invisible and that’s gonna be in how God says, can’t see my face. So apparently there is something to be seen and yet all of us living here on this planet,

God is invisible to us and Moses says, show me something. I want to see with my physical, tangible eyes. I want to see something that matches what I know of you. Show me your glory. ⁓ Do you think that’s interesting too, Carolyn?

Carolyn Lacey (28:33) Yeah, I do. I do. I think.

that’s how we learn. We’re, for the most part, experiential learners, aren’t we? And I he’s not saying, tell me more about yourself. ⁓ He’s wanting an experience of God or some kind of revelation of God that will show more of who God is. ⁓ It will be something he can hold onto, something he can remember. Yeah, that is interesting.

Shannon Popkin (28:42) Yeah. ⁓

Right, and Jesus is the exact representation of God. And so he has shown us his glory in the person of Jesus Christ. There’s this parallel text in Mark, I think it’s Mark six, where the disciples are in the boat and there’s the storm and Jesus walks in the water and he means to pass by them. Like he’s showing them his glory, right?

by walking on water, like who can do that? And so he, like Jesus does all of these things. He shows us in this physical, tangible sense, his glory. He shows us who he is by what he does. ⁓ You know, God is a show, don’t tell sort of God. I think it’s so interesting that Jesus didn’t sit the disciples down and say, you know, I’m God. He showed them, he multiplied bread and he walked on water. And at the end of that story,

where ⁓ he walks on water in Matthew’s version, the disciples all turn to each other and they’re like, surely he is the son of God. He has shown them his glory and they’ve come to know, he is God. This is who God is. so ⁓ there are these tangible evidences, but for most of our life, we’re called to deal with the invisibility of God, to walk by faith, not by sight, to not live for experiences, ⁓ but to

Carolyn Lacey (30:15) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (30:20) look at Jesus and say, I see God here. You know, if I want to know what God is like, I can look into the life of Jesus and Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. That’s where I get to see God and he has shown me his glory. But let’s move on to the next verse. so Moses says, show me your glory. Verse 19, the Lord said, I’m going to cause, I’m going to pause there. Okay. Like I sometimes I like to fill in the blank.

Moses says, show me your glory. And the Lord says, I will cause all of my fill in the blank to pass in front of you. I don’t think I would choose the word that is here in our text, because I usually think of glory as like, I don’t know, how do you think most of us would fill in that blank, Carolyn?

Carolyn Lacey (30:59) Right.

Well, yeah, I think the expectation is that God is going to one up what he’s already shown him. So you’ve seen all these miracles in Egypt, you’ve seen and heard the sights and sounds at Mount Sinai, and I’m going to do something even greater to make sure you really know how glorious I am. I think that’s what we would expect God to do. And so the big surprise in this verse is that that is not what he does at all.

Shannon Popkin (31:14) Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Carolyn Lacey (31:37) ⁓ And actually when you stop to consider what a grace it is, know, the Lord said, I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you and I will proclaim my name, the Lord in your presence. I will have mercy on him. I will have mercy and I will have compassion on him. will have compassion. Moses, I mean, we don’t really know, but we are assuming Moses is expecting greater.

sights and sounds and smells and what the Lord is doing is showing his heart. He’s saying this is who I am and this is what I’m like and what a grace that is in the context of the story. The people have done these outrageous things. Moses, you know, he’s gone into this conversation not even sure if the Lord is going to go with them and the Lord hasn’t, you know, we would flex our power.

Shannon Popkin (32:29) Yes.

Carolyn Lacey (32:34) and our might. We would be, just you people know quite how great I am. That would be, I think, our natural response. And what the Lord chooses to do is say, do you know, I’m going to tell you and show you my heart for you, my mercy and my compassion. It’s really unexpected. And it’s such a gift. It’s such a grace.

Shannon Popkin (32:56) Yes.

I couldn’t agree more. think most often when I look at the way I parented my kids or when I look at people who have been so horrible like the Israelites, you know, I look at their idolatry or I look at what I think is going to get through to them, what I think is going to have the most impact is a harshness. So like, do you know, like there are consequences and God is just and you know, he will judge sin and like these are the thoughts, like look at the story of the flood, he wiped people out.

because they were evil, like, do you not see? Like, that’s what I think is gonna have the most impact. That’s what I think will bring people back to God. And he’s like, no, no. Here in this moment, what I really want to show you, you you’ve asked me to show you something. What I really want you to see about me is I am good. I am merciful. I am gracious. I have compassion on whom.

I choose and I’ve chosen you. that is what distinguishes you. That’s what sets you apart. You are not this people who have done it better than anyone else really. You know, you are just the people that I’ve set my affections on and you are the people that I have chosen to show my affect or my compassion to, show my mercy to. Mercy is when we don’t get what we do deserve. And so

in response, what these people deserve is they deserve for God to say, okay, fine, I’m not going with you, or okay, fine, you can just stay in this wilderness. That’s what they deserve. But they’re not going to get that because God is saying, no, I will go with you. I will take you into the promised land and I will give you rest, he said earlier, I’m going to give you all those things I promised based on my character, which is kind of what Moses was drawing out earlier in the conversation. Like remember what you’ve promised. Remember who you are, Lord.

And he’s like, yeah, I’m going to tell you exactly who I am. I am going to show you ⁓ myself. And this is the first time like the Bible up until this point, the Lord has not introduced himself with words about himself. He’s just introduced himself with actions, you know, like in creation. It’s interesting. He looks at all that he’s made and he says it is good.

He doesn’t say, am good, but the implication is he is good, right? And then, you know, when Adam and Eve sin, they don’t die immediately. He says, if you eat this fruit, you will die. And so he doesn’t say, I am merciful, but he shows them, I am merciful in that moment. And over and over again, God has shown his compassion, his mercy. But here’s the first time he’s introducing it with words. He’s telling Moses, here’s who I am. And the

first thing that he wants for Moses to know about himself. Like this is how I introduce myself. You know, I’m not only going to show you my glory, but I’m going to give you some words to back it up. I’m going to, like, there’s going to be, you know, an announcer call. I’m going to be the announcer. I’m going to call out who I am, and I’m going to tell you this is who I am. And I think it’s interesting that he tells him that. He says it ahead of time, and then he tells Moses where to go. You know, he’s going to go back up onto this mountain.

Carolyn Lacey (36:09) Yep.

Shannon Popkin (36:11) There’s this place where you’re be really close to me and I’m gonna show you my glory. And then maybe if we could just skip down to verse 34. Then the Lord came down in a cloud and stood there with him, with Moses, and proclaimed his name, the Lord. And he passed in front of Moses proclaiming, the Lord, the Lord, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, maintaining love.

to thousands and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished, he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the parents to the third and the fourth generation. And so that like, that’s the part I always want to lead with is like, okay, this is a God of justice, and he will punish sin, you know, and God does it exactly the opposite. He leads with the mercy with the compassion. I just find that so compelling.

Carolyn Lacey (36:56) consequences.

Yeah, it’s, you know, just think about how precious that would be at this point because they know God’s powerful, they know he’s holy. He said that he’s going to go with, from Moses’ point of view, to have a God go with you who is utterly pure and immensely powerful, that is quite a fearful thing.

How do we know he will ultimately use his power for the good of his people? And he’s saying, this is what my heart is like towards you. I’m compassionate, I’m gracious, I’m slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness ⁓ and forgiving. And I think that Moses knows that he’s going to take these people forward with a God who matches his power.

with his mercy and with his compassion and what a gift at the right time for him.

Shannon Popkin (38:10) I wonder if there’s ever been a time in your life, Caroline, where you have a personal experience with God’s mercy, his compassion. You talked about as a child wanting to be good and feeling like you were just getting it wrong constantly. You were always getting into trouble.

and ⁓ grace and mercy wasn’t emphasized, but do you have a time where the Lord showed you personally His grace and His mercy?

Carolyn Lacey (38:38) Yeah, and I think probably going back 25 years or so, perhaps slightly longer, thinking of times where, you know, as you get older, well, I suppose your sins are more serious often, but also as you get older as a Christian, you’re more, hopefully your conscience is getting more tender towards your sin. And I do remember just feeling, occasions, one or more occasions back then where I really, really let the Lord down and I knew it.

and just that feeling of shame, disappointment in myself, the temptation to withdraw and hide. And then just, I mean, this is the blessing of reading all of the Bible every year, coming across unexpected verses of reassurance from Micah of all places where he says, you know, I will have compassion on you. I will trample your sins underfoot. I will hurl them into the depths of the sea.

And if that is true, which I believe it is, that is remarkable. I’ve been reflecting on it ever since, I don’t have to carry on my back a sack of shame because God has dealt mercifully and compassionately with me and he’s literally trampled my sin underfoot. He’s hurled it to the…

deepest part of the ocean. There’s no going looking for it down there. It’s gone. And this is the extraordinary thing, isn’t it? The all-knowing God has chosen to remove from his sight my sin. And I remember coming to that realization, yeah, perhaps 25 or so years ago, and the sense of joy I’ve had in the Lord since then has been incredible. ⁓

Shannon Popkin (40:29) Mm.

Carolyn Lacey (40:30) I can’t believe it. You know, I just, can’t get over it. It feels too good to be true. And yet I know with every fiber of my being that it is true. And it is, I think it has released me from shame and paralyzing regret. It’s not that I don’t wish that I hadn’t done things that were wrong. Of course I do, but I don’t feel loaded down by it. I don’t feel crippled under the weight of

guilt and shame and that is his mercy.

Shannon Popkin (41:01) That’s so good. I think looking back, the thing that I have the most regret about is, like I mentioned earlier, being an angry young mom, that caused a lot of tension and hurt in our family. And one of the most humbling things has been to revisit with my adult children, you know? They’ll say things about…

you know how I was early on and you know maybe they want to joke about it to me it’s not funny I can’t I can’t laugh about it it’s too hard and ⁓ and you know talking with them like I’ve had some really serious conversations with them about like look there are things that never should have happened I I was not the kind of mom that God wanted me to be to you and yet where do I go with that guilt where do I go with that shame you know

⁓ I have nowhere to go but to the cross of Jesus because he bore that shame in his body. He died for it. And God is too just to pour his wrath out on Jesus and leave some wrath for me. you know, it’s already been paid for and he’s not the kind of God who makes anybody pay twice. And so ⁓ he is endlessly merciful, like his compassion, what he wants for me to know about him.

the distinguishing feature about me is that I am the recipient of his mercy and I should live like that’s true. Like if I don’t live like that’s true, you know, if I mope around like, yeah, I mean, I’m such a bad sinner. I, you know, I did it all wrong. I’ve caused all these things in my life. Like that’s really not taking into account what I have been shown in this very story, what God, when he announces himself,

you know, the way that he wants for the world to know him is that he is a God who is

I’m gonna just read it here. He is the Lord. He is the compassionate and gracious God flow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, maintaining love to thousands. Like that’s what he wants the world to know. And I am in on that and anybody else can be in on that. That’s what he wants us to proclaim to the world. So I think ⁓ it’s such a good story.

If you were gonna fill in the blank to this sentence based on this story, how would you say, we should live like it’s true that.

Carolyn Lacey (43:45) that God’s heart is towards us and not against us. ⁓ I do think it’s possible to be a Christian, but not live as though you know that God is inclined towards you. You I think sometimes we are tempted to imagine God eye rolling in exasperation, look at that one, he’s done it again. That is not what we see here. That’s not his character. And so I think we…

Shannon Popkin (44:10) No. Yes.

Carolyn Lacey (44:14) we live like it’s true as we choose to believe his heart is towards us and that he doesn’t show this mercy and compassion and love grudgingly. It makes him happy. He delights to show mercy. He’s really good at it and he really loves doing it. And so I think we need to believe that. And I think that would help us just answer back a little bit those

Shannon Popkin (44:30) Yes.

Yes.

Mmm.

Carolyn Lacey (44:43) that in a voice that says you’re so useless, look at that shame, or you’ve done it again. That is how we attempt to deviate ourselves. That is not how God, in his mercy, views us.

Shannon Popkin (44:45) Mm.

it’s so good, Carolyn. I mean, for the woman who is saying like, I’ve had an affair. I have a pornography addiction. I have ⁓ a gambling addiction. I drink too much alcohol. I yelled at my kids. I spurned my husband. I mean, whatever it is like this thing. And you’re just picturing God like ⁓ her again. Like, what is her problem? Why can’t she get it right? That is not

what the Lord wants you to know about himself. when you have blown it, he leads with something completely other than that. And he wants you to live like it’s true. So he wants you to live like it’s true that he is merciful and gracious and kind. So let’s go do that today. Carolyn, thank you so much for this conversation. I so appreciate it. Would you tell us the name of your new book and where we can find it?

Carolyn Lacey (45:46) Sure, so the book’s called Amazed, 30 Days of Growing in Or of God. It’s available from the Good Book Company sites. I think it’s on Amazon and wherever you buy your Christian books.

Shannon Popkin (45:57) Thank you so much.

Carolyn Lacey (45:58) Thank you for having me.