Thanks, Shannon.

I’m so happy to be here with you every time.

It’s so much fun.

You are no stranger. I think you are the most returned guest. So thank you so much. You were here to talk about how to bear God’s image by gender in our Genesis series and also how to overcome my desire to control my husband. And you were also my very first guest on the podcast to talk about how to live like it’s true that you’re forgiven. We did the story of the paralytic being lowered through the roof and all of those are among

the most listened to episodes. So our guests love you. Thank you.

It’s a joy.

You just have such a gift with the Word of God. But in case somebody hasn’t yet met you, let me just read your bio. Kelly Needham hopes to convince as many people as possible that nothing compares to knowing Jesus. I love that. And you teach the Bible and help co-lead a group called Teach Equip, which I’m leading a chapter of that here in Michigan. Give us a couple sentence summary of what that is. Yeah. Teach Equip exists to equip women who feel called to teach the scriptures to better handle God’s Word and communicate it well and in a memorable way to their audience. So we just really believe that local churches should be full of really equipped women to

handle God’s Word. And a lot of times women don’t even have the access to that kind of training.

And we want to help provide that.

It’s been such a gift. We have about a dozen of us in my group that meet and we’re from three different churches. So that may be a little bit unique, but I just have connections with different churches in our area. And so it has just been a joy. And I mean, like we are, I just voxed with them today. Voxer is a little app where you can talk back and forth. We’re just in constant communication about what we’re learning about teaching and it’s

just a blessing. And so, and it all started with you, Kelly, you and your friend, Lindsay, who has also been a guest on the podcast. So yes, it’s been I’m so thankful that you, you know, God prompted your heart to get that started. And if our listeners will find it, it’s called teach equip.com. Yes, that’s right. They can find more information there and send us an email if you’re interested in starting a chapter or participating yourself or have other questions.

Yep. Yeah.

Be great. You just launched a new book called Purpose Thuled. By chasing your dreams, finding your calling, and reaching for greatness will never be enough. And I really love this book. I feel like you’ve put your finger on something that has vaguely felt out of sorts to me, but like you just start bringing clarity,

which is the name of your podcast, you’ve been clearly a podcast, so you’re really good at that. As we get started in our conversation today, we’re going to talk about the story of, you know, the disciples are arguing about who’s the greatest and he uses a child as his illustration of greatness. But as you think about, you know, your title is Purpose Fooled, what do you think in this particular generation have we been fooled about regarding our purpose?

There’s a lot of things, but I think they can all be summed up in this, that we’ve been told our purpose is something that we do or accomplish, that to live a meaningful life, to live a purposeful life, to live our purpose or fulfill it equals accomplishing or achieving something, maybe first figuring out what that thing is and then getting about the work of doing that. And I think that is not our purpose.

We believe that it’s problematic for many reasons. Obviously there are good things for us to do, but I don’t think that it’s our purpose, the very reason that we exist. It’s so good. I think in today’s day and age, there are so many things that we can do that nobody could do even 10 years ago. Like, and we feel this burden with social media.

I can run a business from a laptop, right? That’s right. It takes me about maybe less than $100 a month to run my business. You know, if you add up the subscriptions that I have, like, and then I can feel this extreme burden on my shoulders. Like, not only can I do this, I must do this. I have to do this and I’m pushing myself. And I think we’re grappling with questions that our grandmothers never did, right?

With progress and asking questions about purpose.

Yeah.

A lot of people didn’t even have the opportunities to make decisions about what they wanted to do in their life. Kind of the family you were born into became the deciding factor about what you would do with your life. If you would just take over the family business or what an apprentice under these certain people, you were really limited by your family, by proximity, by location. So many things really limited you, education, money, to the options that were before you for a line of work or how you’re going to contribute to society. And so now that all of those walls have really been broken down, which feels very much like

forward movement, right?

Progress.

Yay.

Everything is accessible to all of us. We can all go get an Amazon seller account, write books, or we can all become talk show hosts and host podcasts and get on YouTube. And we can, I mean, really it is accessible to anybody, but it creates a crisis of identity, a crisis of purpose because the options are so endless that then we struggle to know which direction to take. And especially as Christians, I think we feel the burden of the good news entrusted to us. And so we feel kind of this extra angst that like I have to use everything within my power, my means to make a difference in this world.

And then sometimes we just get overwhelmed by all the decisions and we just give up and like zone out Netflix, binging or scrolling on our phones. And we feel depressed and discouraged because we know we were meant to do good work. We know we were meant to live lives of purpose, but it’s really just created a lot of confusion for us trying to even figure out what should we do. I mean, it’s amazing the opportunities have just created now courses that people can take that are meant to help you discover what path should you take? You know, it’s like there’s elements of that that I don’t think are totally bad.

But again, at the end of the day, this is all really a position of privilege for many of us. There are so many people in our country and in other countries that don’t have these opportunities, whether they have a child with disabilities or they become a caregiver to a spouse or a parent, or they’re living in some poverty or debt that it’s like, there’s just not options. So if you tell me that my life will have meaning when I can figure out what I was made to do and go live it. It’s like we’ve isolated whole groups of people from purposeful living because they don’t have the opportunity to do so. So that’s one reason why it’s problematic to even see the world that way.

Yeah, it’s so true. So I have found such freedom in the message of this book. Actually the subtitle is a little bit like, I mean, you don’t see the freedom necessarily in the subtitle. By chasing your dreams, finding your calling and reaching for greatness will never be enough. Okay, so what will be enough then, Kelly?

You know, side note, true story here. I had a friend reading this, my early manuscript, to give me feedback, and he’d taken it on a family vacation, and his brother-in-law saw it sitting on the counter and read the title and said, gosh, that’s depressing. Why would you ever want to read that book?

So, anyway, it is meant to intrigue people. And it definitely is a subtitle with some teeth, but I’m hoping it will awaken for people a sense of, oh, even if you got everything you wanted, that’s really the message. Even if you discovered your calling, you really, you figured it out. This is what I was made to do. And you had every opportunity to do it and you did it. And God made a way for you to do the thing that you feel made to do. And in that lane, you didn’t just do it, you did it well with people seeing you, you achieved

it, you accomplished it, and you got to the top of the mountain. What you find is you’re still longing for something because you’re actually made for something bigger than what you can contribute to the world and what you can accomplish. And so it’s not even bad to set goals and to work hard and to do those things. But it really is like if your hope is in, my life will have meaning when I can finally achieve all these things, I’m hoping to destroy that thought. For the sake of freedom to go, there’s actually a better way to live a meaningful life. And it’s not going to start on the other side of that accomplishment or achievement. It can start right now because the achievement won’t even meet your needs,

even if you got it. Yep. Well, and I see all of those thoughts and truths and little gems of theology tucked into this story we’re going to talk about. Because these 12 disciples that lived with Jesus, I mean, they actually were getting drawn into this idea that what they were to do would be their high calling, their purpose. And it’s not that they were doing something that didn’t have great purpose. I mean, they were going to be the foundation of the church. And yet, Jesus was calling them back to like, just all the things you just said, like even if they were to achieve all of these goals, all of these dreams in their heart, I mean, they were going to get to do more than they

ever imagined. And yet, if you were to like remove Jesus, like that their purpose was something other than Jesus, like it just makes no sense. And that is exactly true for us as well. So yeah, so this is the story we’re going to look at. This is one of my favorite stories in the Bible. You know, this series is part of our Comparison Girl series, which is, you know, we’re celebrating the launch of this teen book, Comparison Girl for Teens. And when I think back to just where this message all started in my heart, it was as a young mom. I can’t remember if I’ve told this story on this podcast, but I’m sitting in a car, I’m

in my pajamas, I have not done my hair or makeup. I’ve got a newborn baby that I’m nursing. I’ve just dropped my kids off at their school and I watched this woman walking into the building next to me. You know, she’s all made up, hair perfect. She’s got a suit on and she’s like quick, quick, quick with her little heels. I’m looking at her like, oh girl, you are going to go do something really important today with your life.

And I am going to do this. Like I don’t know, I probably won’t get dressed today. I’m going to nurse this baby and I’m going to fold little miniature pairs of jeans and I will do dishes and white noses. And you know, it’s like I felt that contrast in seeing this woman and what she was going to do with her day and me with my day. And I remember right around that time in life, seeing one of these upside down statements of Jesus where he says, the greatest is the servant.

And I hadn’t quite sorted it all out. I just knew my heart was so drawn to this concept that it wasn’t about accomplishing something more like I could find fulfillment in what I was actually doing that day. You know, it didn’t it didn’t have to like you say in your book, I didn’t have to swap out my verbs, you know, to go do something great, like right where I was, that was very compelling to me. And so, and we’re hoping with this teen book that they’ll catch a glimpse of this far earlier than I did, maybe you did, you know, but this story, this is one of the stories that God most used in my life to capture my heart with the idea that, okay, Jesus’s kingdom is different. It’s not like things here in the world.

It’s freeing. What you just shared is such a common experience for women, whether they’ve had children or not, you know, compare it, like that’s why your book is important because we tend to look at other people and social media gives us a window to do that now, like never before, and just see these great things, but Jesus, man, servant and slave to all,

that’s the greatest. I just love it. He really is so backward. It’s like those are the people you don’t notice in society. They’re the people who help others achieve big things, right? They’re the ones who do the menial tasks so that the other important person can do their specialized tasks. And he looks at those people and says, they’re the great ones.

Which is like, what?

Yeah, yeah, the ones you might look past and forget about, you know, not think to honor. Yeah, Jesus sees it differently. All right, so Kelly, would you read Matthew 18, 1 through 5 in the ESV? Yep, it says, At that time the disciples came to Jesus saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, Truly I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me.”

Okay.

So we learn in, I think it’s Mark’s telling of the story, they’ve been on the road to Capernaum. They’re arguing along the way, who’s the greatest? And then, and they’re entering this house, probably Peter’s house. And they’re asking in this version of the story, they’re coming to Jesus asking, who’s the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And so, I mean, I picture them with like red faces, they’re angry, they’re frustrated, they’re arguing. And when you’re arguing with somebody about it, you know, you’re like using proof like, no, I’m the greatest because I this and, you know,

no, I’m the greatest in the kingdom? Uh, well, I think the most surprising thing to me was that he doesn’t immediately rebuke them for asking the question.

Yes.

Because it does feel very arrogant, worldly. The spiritual answer for me, if I were to like be anticipating what Jesus would say is, you’re asking the wrong question. Yeah. It’s not who’s the greatest. It’s something else. Or that’s such a worldly question. Don’t, you know.

In fact, if my children were to ask me that, that is what I would say to them. You’re asking the wrong question. But he gives them a straightforward answer. Like he, he really does. He essentially says, sure, I’ll tell you exactly who the greatest are. So one, he’s admitting that there’s greater and less than within the kingdom, which I think you see in other parts of the scripture. So that’s a whole other conversation maybe, but he admits that there’s people who are great. He will at other times name people to be the greatest or people greater than them. So that’s interesting to me. Let’s just pause on that for a second, because I find that motivating. Do you? Yes. I mean, I do too. I think everything’s like

whitewashed. I’m like, well, what does it matter? We’re all kind of, you know, erased into one thing. I think there’s something within the human heart that it’s like justice. It’s a type of justice, like to see somebody who gave their life, uh, in hard labor and hiddenness, and then we get to see them exalted into a place of, you know, their, their work being appreciated or celebrated or made known. We love that. Even if it’s not us, there’s something about that justice of that person’s work being praised that we enjoy.

And God, I think, put that into the human heart. So I do think it’s motivating and I think it’s exciting. And I don’t think it will be in heaven when we’re with Jesus seeing the effects of that. I don’t think there’ll be any remorse, sadness, envy. It won’t be like, oh, I love that for that person. Or to see the sacrifice or to see that the honor bestowed on people in varying degrees will be of great delight to our hearts, even if it has nothing to do with us. But I do find it to be very motivating because we are driven as people to live for the reward.

We don’t run marathons for no reason. It’s like, no, I want to achieve this thing and get a reward. And we’re often motivated in the scriptures by eternal rewards. Jesus is often motivating by rewards. Exactly. Erwin Lutzer says, five minutes after you die, it’s not as though it won’t matter how you lived on earth. It will. There will be eternal consequences. I think he wrote a book, maybe one minute after you die, five minutes, I don’t remember. But our eternal rewards, there will be some correlation with how we have chosen to live. And I just find that so incredibly motivating.

I remember reading the treasure principle with that Randy Alcorn wrote and just how we spend our money even will have eternal ramifications. And I just I find that so compelling. Like I think we need to spend more time thinking about the implications of our lives versus less and Jesus wanted us to like the fact that you brought up there is a great term And in heaven, like, we don’t all get the same trophy, you know, like how in Little League or whatever. And what that tells me is Jesus sees and notices differences.

He’s aware. And that’s just that’s a humble King who even notices, you know, that I’m up in the middle of the night nursing a baby like he sees and notices that or I’ve given my all to preparing a message for a group of 15 women versus 1000, right? Like that is so compelling that he sees and notices. So, um, so, but he’s responding to who’s the greatest. And so it’s surprising you said that he doesn’t condemn their longing for greatness. Um, but, but what else is surprising about his response to them?

Uh, true to form, right? He uses analogies and parables in his response. So he, he takes a living, you know, example. I just think it’s interesting. He called a child to himself. I mean, it’s just so funny, isn’t it? A child, like, who’s the greatest? All right. Hey, can I have a kid? Please send me a five-year-old, you know? I don’t know what age the child was, but of all the things in the world that we do not esteem important and great, it’s children. Now, we value children, but no streets are named after children. And no buildings are named after children.

And there are no monuments to children because they have not contributed anything yet. Because the way that we understand greatness in a human way is by contribution. How many Martin Luther King Jr. highways, avenues, streets exist in the world? It is probably innumerable in the States, right? Because every city has multiple. Because of his great contributions to our country, we name things after him. So contribution equals greatness to us.

And children are literally the opposite of that. They don’t contribute. They only receive, they are just needy and have everything done to them, for them, by someone else, which feels like the antithesis of greatness. Uh, it feels like, sure, that’s a great start, but maybe one day you’ll do something great kid, you know But yeah, yeah, and I love the fact that Jesus, you know, he doesn’t just teach this in an abstract way He’s calls a child to him and he puts the child in the midst of them So like there’s this visual contrast, you know when in ancient times the teacher would sit and the students would stand

It’s the opposite of us So, I mean, most likely Jesus is the one sitting and these guys are standing in this room and then there’s this little child Like me. I’m picturing like a two-year-old, you know, like standing a little one the Contrast of that and Jesus is pointing to him saying yeah, this is this is what you want to emulate Well, and he makes two bold statements because he does say in verse four if you humble yourself as this child, that’s who’s the greatest. So he does make a statement before that. He actually says, you can’t even enter my kingdom at all. Can’t even be a participant if you’re not willing to become like a child. Yeah, if we think of the implications of that, he’s going nuclear here. Like, yes, that is the most bold thing that he could say. Like,

what does that mean to not enter the kingdom of God? What do we know that to mean? You have no salvation, right? To enter the kingdom of God means to cross from death to life, to have eternal life, to be a participant with Jesus in his everlasting kingdom, to be with him. And he’s like, you want your entrance fee? Your ticket for that is to become like a child, which I wonder what they’re thinking listening to Jesus saying that.

If I’m them, I’m probably going, well, he can’t obviously mean become like a child.

Right.

I don’t know what gymnastics of reasoning they may have been doing to try and figure out the hidden meaning behind his words. But there is no hidden meaning behind the words. It is like plain as day. He says it multiple times. There’s multiple accounts of him saying this. If you want to enter the kingdom,

you have to turn and become like children, that there’s a turning away from one way to a new way. And it’s one of something that is akin to being a child, and in the next verse he’ll call it a humility of sorts, a humbling. And it’s interesting that he would just say how you enter the kingdom is also how you be great. That they’re not different in nature. That the entrance fee to the kingdom and the way to progress in the kingdom into same path. And it is this humility of childlikeness. Just like the one thing we’re all eager to get away from. Anti-American.

So true. Yeah, it’s so true. In a second, I’m going to read a quote from your book. But I used to have a baby gate in my kitchen area where like just to kind of corral the kids when I was cooking. And every day my husband would come in from the garage and, you know, there would be the baby gate and they would come over to him and just hold their hands up. You know, they didn’t try to get over the fence. They didn’t try to find a way through it.

They just held their hands up because they knew there was no way to get to him without him lifting them up. Like, that’s just an image for me of how we enter the kingdom. Like we don’t come with our resumes. We don’t come with our contributions. Like you need me in there. You know, you need me at this table, God. No, we just come like a child.

We’re adopted into the kingdom. We know that. He’s the father. And so there’s a receiving. I was thinking about this. I’ve always thought of it like we’re received into the kingdom, you know, so he’s receiving us and Jesus uses that word both ways, like we’re to receive little ones. But in this sense, the little one is also receiving, I don’t know, acceptance and notice from like, I’m just picturing like, like picture

a little kid with his arms up and nobody picks him up, you know. So like to have the father who would lean down and receive us in. This is so beautiful. I want to go back to what you just said about, like, this is so contrary, so backward to everything. I don’t know, human nature and also American.

Yeah.

Like this is what you said in your book. You said, we only celebrate human contribution. We despise regression toward receiving. We give awards and name streets for what others have contributed. We assume progress is moving from one level of contribution to a greater one. Like that still resonates with me. Like, you know, we talk about individual contributors or he contributed to the team. Like it’s the contributor that is celebrated.

But you said not so in Jesus’s kingdom. What impresses him far more is what you are able to receive. What awakens his, Jesus’s, interest in is how often you choose neediness over strength. Who are the weakest Christians? The ones most in need of grace and mercy, the ones who daily understand their position entirely as receivers, the ones who are content to let God be the great achiever. These are the ones who catch the awe and wonder of the kingdom. I mean, I probably read that 10 times.

Like that little passage, I think that is what puts the finger on what’s so different about the kingdom as opposed to the world.

Yes, absolutely. It’s all about neediness in the kingdom of God. The thing that we’re like allergic to, we just can’t take it when we have a legitimate need to have to ask for help. You know, if you’ve ever been in that moment where your tire’s flat on the side of the road and maybe your spouse or your roommate or the normal person you’d call is unavailable and you have to start reaching out to neighbors and friends.

And it’s just, we hate being in a position where we have to rely on others for something. Other people or God, we don’t want to have to rely on God. We’d rather just do things for God than receive from him. We don’t like feeling needy, weak, or inefficient in our own strength. It feels very uncomfortable to us, but that is what children are. That’s why I think he grabs children all the time

and says, this is what it means to be my kingdom. You know, and it resonates with so many other things Jesus says like I think of John 15 5 where he says I’m the vine You are the branches Then he you know picture. This is like if you were removed from me, you’re like a dead branch You can do nothing on your own. Yeah apart from me. You can do nothing So he’s making another statement about you are totally Unable to do anything meaningful at all on your own You are ultimately in every sense of the word meant to be a recipient of everything God has for you,

for your life to accomplish anything at all, which is wildly offensive to human beings. I know in Christian circles, we have that language familiar and we kind of love to talk about it, but the reality of walking that out, we do not like. I know that because I walk with people in my own church and I counsel people in my own church, and when they’re in places of extreme dependence on God to make any progress in their life, they feel like they’re being bad Christians. Like, there’s this interesting that I’m like,

no, this is beautiful. You’re actually in a place of great strength in God’s eyes because in weakness, His power is perfected because it makes you finally go,

oh, there’s nothing I can do.

I have to just be totally dependent on God. But the walking of that out is scary. It’s uncomfortable. It feels like regression. It feels like, oh, we were progressing the Christian faith, but now we’re going backward because we can’t do it on our own anymore. And I would actually think Jesus here is portraying it as progression. To become more needy is actually maturity in his kingdom, which is sometimes offensive,

but the more I walk with him and see my own weaknesses is becoming wildly encouraging. And also, like you said, awakening that desire for greatness. I mean, you go, I want true greatness. So if that’s the path, then Lord, give me courage to really embrace my need and no longer despise it, but go, no, I’m going to be honest about it with others, with myself. I’m not going to turn a blind eye and try and cover up my weaknesses, but instead be like, I have so many of them,

and I’m just going to be really needy all the time in every effort. And that is going to be maturity and greatness and strength for me is what Jesus says. And that feels real backward. Oh, does it ever? So you’re talking about it feels like a regression to go toward neediness. But I think the problem kind of surfaces when we actually become contributors. Because if you think about a child being needy and then suddenly growing up and turning into a contributor, this is where the correction is needed.

The more that we do contribute, the more capable we are, the more self-sufficient and independent we are, the more we need this message, right? Which is so backward. And it caused me to think about a time, one of my kids, he just has a big heart to serve other people. And he can read a room, he can see, notice like what you’re needing and be a contributor in a multitude of different ways. And when he was in middle school, I remember him dreading going to youth group. And we were like, why?

That makes no sense. You love youth group. But when we drilled down and got to the bottom of it, it was because he was exhausted. He’s like, I’d rather just stay home because he was the kid. He felt like this obligation to open the door for everybody and then he felt like, you know, he had to greet everybody. He wanted his leaders to be encouraged by him. He wanted his peers to laugh at him. He wanted the, you know, the shy one to be included and he wanted the athletic kids to feel like, I don’t know, he wanted to play their games with them or whatever. Like he wanted to be all things to all people, which is not bad, but he was

literally exhausted. And it was so much for him. I mean, he’s like, what, 11 years old? And to him, he just thought, I don’t even want to go. And it’s because he saw himself not as a receiver. Like I think those, you know, she’s a particularly gifted person. And those who are really great contributors, perhaps struggle in a unique way. I think those who can’t contribute anything struggle in their own way with this message, right? What thoughts do you have for somebody who’s just exhausted by all that they feel like God is expecting of them. Yeah, well, there could be so many reasons for that and I’ve so felt that myself, but you know, I think what Jesus is after in this is that we are meant to take up a posture of neediness, of dependence, in everything that we do, even in our

contributing of things, which obviously it’s not wrong to contribute, to do things. I mean, you see that throughout the rest of scriptures, there are good works set before us to do, says Ephesians 2. If I didn’t believe in the importance of obeying God and moments of contribution, we wouldn’t. I wouldn’t host a podcast, you wouldn’t be hosting a podcast, you and I wouldn’t write books. Obviously, it matters, but the way in which I do it does matter. The posture I take in those moments, if I look to myself as the source of strength, energy, and power to achieve change in other hearts and other people through that, then that will wear on me. And also subtly does put you in kind of the role of a savior.

We obviously would never say that.

No, right. But it comes out in ways when we feel like I can’t follow God’s intended rhythm for my life to take a day off in a week because I have too much to do. There’s too many people who need to hear from me or need responses. It’s like, that’s a sign that I see change and the contribution being wholly dependent on me. Or even being able to take those normal moments of rest

in a 24 hour period. You know, we know God has designed our bodies to need seven to eight hours of sleep and that we really can’t work straight from the moment we wake up until we go to sleep. We really need a moment in our day that’s not work, that’s restorative time. And if we’re not willing to do that,

then that should be a signal to us that we are in our contributions, acting as if we are the engine powering that whole thing and we can’t stop and take a break. So how we go about the walking out of the good works God has for us does matter. We are meant to do it still in a posture of God, apart from you, I can do nothing. Apart from you, this writing is pointless. This work of writing that I do, apart from you, this encouraging

of my friend is doing nothing. Like I, I’m coming to each moment fully aware of my inability and weakness and bringing it to you. I think we’re really meant to have kind of an hourly daily dependence, which is why Jesus encourages us to ask for daily bread. Yeah. And again, it’s very not normal. Children though, ask for daily bread.

They don’t think about what’s gonna be on the dinner table next week or next month. They just assume it will be provided to them. And so then they ask for a snack every hour or what’s for breakfast, mom? You know, but again, that asking for daily bread that you see in the Lord’s Prayer, I think, is Jesus again calling us into a childlike state of dependence with him. Don’t store up what you need for a month from now. Yeah. And when you step into more moments of contribution and people are looking to your books or your podcast or your ministry or your teaching or whatever, and they’re saying words to you like,

your ministry has changed me, and this, you start, you can start to internalize sometimes an unhealthy habit of thought, which is, oh, it’s on me. Yes. Well, it makes sense when I think of these disciples in that room. You know, they’re just Fisher dudes, you know.

Right.

The fact that they were chosen to do this great work, and that’s us, we’re just simple people. That’s right. They didn’t go out seeking Jesus. He sought them. And so it makes sense when I think of them, like how ridiculous that you think you’re going to be the great contributors. Like, no, you’re really just receiving of this task and receiving everything that you need to do it. You know, they’re going to receive the Holy Spirit. But when I transfer that into my own life, it’s harder for some reason, you know, like it seems less intuitive

that I’m not going to contribute, that I’m going to receive. I don’t know. There’s something, I think it must just be human nature, right? Yes. It’s always easier to see in someone else and encourage someone else into dependency, right? It’s easier to give than to receive when it comes to these types of things. We love to be the one getting the phone call. Can you come help me with my car on the side of the road? Like, yeah, I can do that. Can you bring me a meal? Of course,

when you have to be the one asking others for that, that’s when you feel the insecurity of that.

You know?

Yeah.

Again, if I can’t give anything to anyone, is anyone going to like me? You know, we know how much of our world view as humans is really built on what we can offer to others. And Jesus is just going, you can’t offer anything.

And that’s actually greatness.

It’s like, what? Yeah.

I don’t understand Jesus. It’s so, it’s so foreign. And I think sometimes we’re so familiar with these verses and passages like this that we just spout it off. But I think if we’re honest, this is extremely foreign to our nature and uncomfortable.

But if we’ll embrace it, so much freedom.

Yeah, so much freedom. What you just said reminded me of a time, I have a friend who was going through a hard time physically, like she had some autoimmune stuff, I think going on, and she has a special needs child. So I just told her I would bring her a meal every Tuesday. So in nothing fancy, just whatever I was cooking for my family, I would double it and drop

some off to her. And I remember one time, I mean, literally, it was like sometimes it was chicken nuggets. It wasn’t special, but it was it was just a little thing I could do for her where she didn’t have to even think about dinner. And I remember one time dropping it off and she almost had tears and she’s like, you know what? I just wish I was the one dropping off food to you. I would so rather be the one Giving than receiving it’s so hard. It’s so counterintuitive So when Jesus says, you know, she’s calling us to this

He says unless we become like children We we won’t even enter the kingdom of heaven, but then you talked about how that’s not just the way we enter, it’s the way we progress to greatness. And this is where he says, whoever humbles himself like a child is the greatest in the kingdom. And okay, so that word like, that’s a comparison word, you know, those are my eyes are key to those as I wrote Comparison Girl in these stories. Jesus is constantly having conversations with people who are comparing, and he tells them

to be like this child. I mean, you’ve said it a little bit, but give us in a sound bite, what does it mean to be like this child? And what Jesus is after is not childishness, not the foolishness in a child. Right. We don’t think that’s what he’s after. What he’s after, and he says to humble yourself like a child, like this child, is to willingly put yourself in a position before him of utter neediness. If we think about a child that has no caregiver, we would say that child is destitute, right?

They don’t have any means for their own provision in the world. They need to be adopted. They need to be placed in a family or a home. To think of a child being on their own in the world is a great tragedy to us because we understand something innately about children. They need someone else to take care of them. They need someone else to provide for them, to give them what they need, and to direct and guide them.

They need shepherding, they need counsel, they need all those things. So I think when Jesus is saying, humble yourself like a child, it’s an invitation as adults to enter into that posture with our Creator, with the one, with our Lord whom we serve, where the tendency is going to be to go back to what the disciples come with at first. Who’s the greatest? And I think they’re coming to him going, great, Jesus, you got us on your team. We’re excited to help you. You know, we have some stuff to do for you. We want to do great things for God. And he’s looking back and saying, I don’t need you to do something for me. I’m inviting you to let me do

something for you. Will you let me be the provider, the caregiver, the shep? Will you take the posture of child in this relationship and receiver that is true greatness for you? That is advancing in my kingdom. That’s becoming truly useful to the king Yeah, and I mean just picture it’s not long after this that they’re gonna receive the spirit like they’re gonna Speak in tongues where they don’t even know what they’re talking about and thousands of people are gonna enter this church that’s going to be born and they’re going to go out and they’re going to share the message and it’s going to be amazing, but it’s something they’re going to receive. Like, they did not have some kingdom launch team where they planned out this Pentecost experience.

They received it, you know, it was all given to them. Like, because they not only wanted to be great, they wanted to be greater than, you know, they wanted to compare, they wanted to measure up, they wanted to outdo one another. And so, and I feel that in myself. I mean, I have that desire. I don’t want to, you know, I don’t want to admit it, but I want everybody to think I’m

awesome.

That’s right.

And so that’s freedom when we can all admit that.

It’s true.

It’s in every one of our hearts.

It really is. It’s true. But it helps me to put myself in this room and to just like rehearse this story in my mind. So when I come to Jesus and I’m like, you know, can you just tell me who’s the greatest, like me or her, like I’d really like to know. And he’s like, he doesn’t chide me for that desire that I have to do something worthwhile, you know,

to contribute in a great way. But he’s like, yeah, here’s the path. It’s the same path that you entered my kingdom. Be like this child, be the needy one. And it’s not what I want to hear, but yet it brings so much freedom, right? So much. It’s so compelling. I don’t have to exhaust myself.

I don’t have to push myself. I can be okay with just being me, you know? Like I mean, Kelly, I could be tempted to compare myself with you. Like you have written this amazing book. I love it so much. And I think I couldn’t have written that book. I don’t know. I wouldn’t have found the words.

And yeah, it’s okay. I don’t have to do what you did. It’s not my purpose is that found in my verbs, even in writing a book, let alone, you know, comparing my book with somebody else’s book. We don’t have to do these things. We just are children receiving and not only are we receiving nourishment, you know, everything that we need to flourish, but we receive our assignments from him, too.

That’s right.

So we’re recipients. It’s encouraging to see how Jesus reframes our competitive natures, you know, our desires, because everybody does that. And I could look at you and go,

Shannon, look at how many books you’ve written, you know, I’ve written, too, you know, and other people listening to us that may write books may look at us and say the same kinds of things.

We though tend to compare through very visible things. Yeah. How long the books are, how many people read them, how many of them there are, blah blah blah, you know, all the things. And yet Jesus, I think, would pull up all those books and go who is more like a needy beggar through the process of writing the book, that he’s evaluating that way. And that is interesting for me to then look back at my life and go, wow, where have I been in my ministry, in my life, operating on my own reserves,

my own ingenuity, my own strength? The world may see that and whatever those things are and applaud them, but Jesus might not. He might see that and go, you know, of course there’s no condemnation for those of us who are in Christ now. There’s no condemning voice in him, but rather an invitation to go, yeah, the world, he said, is great, but I have a different vision of greatness. And we will all be made aware of it when we are all together with him in eternity. That’s the table I remind myself I will one day sit at. I will one day sit at tables with the saints, and we will know who truly is great and who truly walked in that neediness.

And I would love to find myself at a table there where that is what I’m remembered for. Look at how willing I was to embrace my utter need of Jesus on a daily basis. And that’s what’s being lauded and celebrated among the saints. Because really, you and I can’t contribute anything on our own anyway. It’s like, who’s clinging tighter to him. That just allows for his work to flow through us even more. That at the end of the day, the greatest saint in the kingdom, right, who Jesus might raise up and say, this one’s truly the greatest. What will they have to say but just, I learned that I could offer nothing to the world but

my need and Jesus. Yeah, it really will all result in praise to him. Yeah, it’s so true. But I like how you just contrasted what’s visual and what’s going to be revealed, you know, like what’s apparent. And I think living like this story is true is partly just setting aside, even understanding how I rank, what, you know, like, I don’t Like your kids saying, can I have a snack? You know, what’s for breakfast? That’s who I am in the kingdom. I love how you put that out there, like a child who has no one taking care of them would be destitute.

We would call child protective services. And that’s who we are without Christ. We need everything every day. We need him. You know, I love that song, We Need Him Every Hour. So, Kelly, how can we live as though this story is not true? Like, what are some of the ways that we exemplify, like, we’re not aligned with this truth that Jesus is revealing? When we look at what’s before us and look first to ourselves, that we are looking entirely to our own strength and abilities, first and foremost, separate

from God, that we first turn inward for what we need to get through the day, to accomplish the things before us, or we are hesitant to ever stop exercising our own effort. We don’t rest at all. There’s no rest in our life. There’s no peace in our life. You know, those would all be signs that we’re entirely just living independent from God, not dependent on him. Here’s where this shows up in my life. When I look at some blank spaces on the calendar and I don’t like it, I get nervous about that. I don’t know if you have ever experienced

that, but like I’m at the stage in my life where, I mean, I don’t really have anyone who needs me on a daily basis. My family still needs me, but like I don’t, I’m not preparing meals for children. My parents are pretty self-sufficient and I look at a blank, I don’t know, February is pretty blank in my calendar right now. And I’m like, what am I going to do? I don’t like that feels really uncomfortable. I better come up with something to do in February. Like I bet, okay, do I need to get right working?

What’s my next book I need to write or what’s? Oh, I should probably line up podcast like for that because that is blank. I don’t like that. And so that is me, Kelly. See myself as a contributor, a blank calendar, she is not OK with me because I see it. But what if I flip that in my head and see, well, how can I receive in February? You know, like how can I be a receiver with those blank spaces? Yeah, do you see that in your life? I do.

I’m my life is very different than yours. There’s just it’s full to the brim. So if anything blank spaces feel attractive at this point and I have so I’d be opposite problem of looking at a calendar where for example this past week, you know, one child had a sickness issue that was unexpected, which resulted in multiple appointments. Someone else had, I mean, just things just popped up where I had to rearrange. And just moments I had built in for some rest or downtime just evaporated. And I have something different that that can produce a type of anxiety for me where it’s like, my response should be dependency.

God, I don’t know what to do about that. I have decisions to make now. What tasks do I let fall by the wayside? Is it right for me to continue to do all the things? You know, there’s just some crowding of the schedule through the presence of just five humans who still need stuff from me, uh, does feel overwhelming and I can tend to rely on my own, uh, strength to arrange for that and take care of that versus immediately just moving to prayer. God, show me what to do. I don’t, I don’t know what to do, you know, or like the, the blank

calendar paid space, which I have had in the past without children. And I’m sure I will have in the future when they’re growing and more self-sufficient, like he says, he’ll provide daily bread, you know? And, uh, even in the years where Jimmy and I relied fully on income from his concerts, just music was our life.

And so to see a blank month was scary because it’s like, will we be able to pay the mortgage?

I don’t know.

We’re really dependent on someone to raise their hand and say, we’d like you to come do a concert. And you just can’t control that. And the temptation is to then work really hard in your own strength to provide for that. And it was hard to regularly have to go, Lord, we are not our own provider. I know America teaches us that we provide for ourselves, but ultimately you stand behind for every animal, for every human being. You tell us in the Psalms that you are the ultimate provider for all things that live. And we’re looking at you going, we don’t know what to do about that.

Would you show us? Do we wait? Is something going to come in? Will you be doing something different? You know our needs. And you said, ask for daily bread and that’s not daily bread. That’s like months in advance. So maybe it’s just wait, you know, that’s hard.

But I think that neediness is the invitation of this passage of scripture.

I love that.

So, Kelly, how do we live like this story is true? We do the hard work of embracing our need, that when those needs confront us, the need for sleep, right? You need rest. face a physical need, a sickness, or like your friend, you know, who needed meals to be brought, that we don’t despise that. And that takes some rewiring of our minds when that moment comes. To go, Jesus, you’re inviting me, inviting me into greatness right now. Would you help me?

What a funny thing, right? To think, I have more work to do, but my body is tired and I need to embrace my limited nature and go to bed. And that may be the greatest thing that I do today because it is a true representation of my neediness as a child with God the Father who never sleeps and tells me to get rest. So, Lord, would you help me embrace this need?

Living Like This story is true for me is I’m choosing now when needs confront me, physical or otherwise, to welcome them and to see them as an opportunity to grow in greatness and asking him for the faith to believe it and walk it out, even if that feels like it’s going to put me behind, that I’m going to get behind with my peers, in whatever way that means. Yeah. All the costs that that feels to me in the moment, I’m asking him, Lord, help me to,

I’m the child here. And if that makes me less than in some other earthly way, then would you help me to die to those things and know that you see and you reward true greatness

in your kingdom. And I want the better kind.

Yeah. I’m also thinking of the person who is regressing in what the world would say, like they’re becoming less of a contributor. Maybe they’re aging or they just lost their job or they’re not, I don’t know, they’re not able to contribute in the way that they once were. How does that person live? Like the story is true. Well, I think what a gift, first of all, again, needs are a great gift to us. And there’s, there’s losses in those moments that I think are okay to grieve. But I think this story is a great encouragement to people who are facing any situation like

that. What an encouragement that Jesus would in the moment where you’re being stripped of your ability to contribute, would look at you and say, no, I have great things for you. This is a moment of true greatness for you, that you get to walk this out. And maybe the world will not see, but it will just be my eyes that see. Jesus has reminded us, right, we do things in secret because there’s a God who sees in secret and he will reward us. he is watching and future reward is coming for those who don’t despise those moments, but instead go, all right, Lord, help me to submit to this hard thing happening. That I think of Corrie ten Boom in the later years of her life, this active, busy woman in

her later years, and then suffered a stroke and was bedridden for several more years. And her assistant would say, she saw her make that transition with such peace and submission into the will of God for her, that this was the will of God that she move into a place of, I just have to receive care now 24-7, because this is the will of God for me right now. And that was a progression of greatness for her that will be rewarded. Or I think of a mentor of ours, great teacher,

Bible teacher, who has now been suffering with MS for about 10 years and has stripped him of all abilities to contribute. And yet his prayer life has increased. His neediness on the Lord has increased. And I just watch him and go, what a great man. He’s walking and modeling true greatness for me. This is an encouragement for anybody facing those years of their life to go.

It’s not over.

The world looks, may look at you and say, all right, your time is done, you know, contributing something great. But in God’s kingdom, you may be just starting out.

Oh, it’s so true. And one of my favorite things about this book is your endorsers.

Just give us like why?

Why were they unique? It’s just one of my favorite things. I specifically in this book with the message that is in it, I did not want the front pages to be filled with people endorsing this book with a whole bunch of titles behind their name of author of all these books and podcaster and pastor. I really just wanted people who are picking up the book to see themselves. And so you will not recognize any name, unless you go to my local church, you

will not recognize any name on the front pages of that book that you will see 19 year old cancer patients. You will see former basketball coaches who have moved to ministry. You will see moms, you will see people in the later retirees in the later years of their life and what they thought about this message. And to me that was important because it felt contradictory to celebrate the way God has so much for us outside of the way we tend to think about it, you know, the world of greatness. It’s so aligned with the message. And I mean, several of the people who endorsed were those who were regressing, you know, they’re contributing less, like

especially that cancer. It’s like an 18 year old who wasn’t able to go to college. I love this book and this message, this story from Jesus has such powerful implications. This is our invitation, live like it’s true, you know, be like a child, be the needy one. Thank you, Kelly. Thank you, Kelly.

Thanks for having me, Shannon.