Shannon Popkin (00:00) Felicity and Sarah, welcome to Live Like It’s True.

Felicity Carswell (00:03) Thank you. Great to be with you, Shannon.

Sarah (00:06) It’s wonderful to be here. Thanks so much for inviting us on.

Shannon Popkin (00:08) It’s so great to have you and listeners, you you’re already going to fall in love with them just by their accents alone, right? we love hearing you talk. So you are two sisters in a cup of tea podcasts. you are two sisters who live in two different countries. Let me see if I got this right. Felicity, you are in the Chicago area. Is that correct? And then Sarah is in the UK, right? London. Yes. So, so how

Felicity Carswell (00:29) That’s right.

Sarah (00:34) That’s where I am.

Shannon Popkin (00:37) How long ago did Sarah or Felicity did you come from the UK to the US?

Felicity Carswell (00:43) We moved, it’s been about five years, five and a bit years. Yeah, we moved with my husband’s work. He runs a book ministry called tenofthose.com.

Shannon Popkin (00:46) Okay.

your husband does. Okay. Interesting. I did not know that connection. I love 10 of those. And in fact, I was at the Gospel Coalition this summer and just kind of walking through the bookstore and this man like stopped in my path and said, Shannon Popkin. And I was like, wait, I know you, You know how it is Aaron Bauer, you must know him. Yes. So

Felicity Carswell (00:54) Yes, you didn’t know the connection there, yeah.

of course, of course, yeah, works for 10 of those,

Shannon Popkin (01:19) Yes. And so I was a youth leader and he was just a kid back then in Wisconsin. And so he remembered me and we had a lovely conversation. I love how God is using him in that ministry. And man, what a great idea. Was it your husband’s original idea? my goodness. I think it’s brilliant

Felicity Carswell (01:25) Ahhhh.

It was, it was, yeah, I know.

do it anywhere, really, churches and conferences and bring the books to you to make it more possible to get hold of good books. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (01:43) Yes, yes, exactly.

Felicity Carswell (01:46) well they have a website as well, so if you’re unable to get to a conference then tenofthose.com, check it out. Everything holds to the Bible, that’s the thing, tenofthose is very good at curating, so it all holds to the Bible, so it’s trustworthy and safe browsing is what I think.

Shannon Popkin (01:52) Wonderful, and is it?

true.

Mm-hmm.

Yes, yes, exactly. It’s like recommendations, recommended here. is it true that it’s shipping for just a dollar? Is that right?

Felicity Carswell (02:07) Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon, you are an advertisement for 10 of those. Yes, only over $1 shipping. mean, how do they do it? I actually don’t know. I’m not business minded at all. So I like the books, though. I’m a reader.

Sarah (02:12) Great salesperson, yeah!

Shannon Popkin (02:14) I thought I remembered that. I know. It’s amazing, it’s amazing. me too, I have more books than I could ever possibly read in my whole life, but I keep buying more because a dollar shipping, right? So I’ve purchased from 10 of Those website. we’ll put a link, know, listeners, this might be new to you, 10ofthose.com, correct? And it’s the number 10.

Felicity Carswell (02:30) Yeah.

Yeah.

Sarah (02:36) Hehehehehe

Felicity Carswell (02:37) You

That’s right, the number 10. Yeah, thank you.

Shannon Popkin (02:44) one zero of those. Yes, so good. Well, I’m so happy to make that connection. So, well, I’ve been following Two Sisters and a Cup of Tea for a bit now, and you like to have a cup of tea and Bibles open, and you want to encourage, equip, and model what it can look like to open up the Bible in everyday life with friends.

whatever stage of life you find yourself at. I love that. And that’s a similar goal that we have here on Live Like It’s True. Now we limit our conversations to the narratives in the Bible and we look at how is this a story and how is it told like a story? The author is not just chronicling events, he’s telling a story and he’s drawing us into the one true overarching story of the Bible and inviting us, this should impact your life.

And Felicity, you said you were just having a conversation with someone this morning and talking about these things, yes? Do you mind sharing just a little bit?

Felicity Carswell (03:36) Yeah, I just went for a coffee with a fellow mum. We just go to the local school and I’ve been praying for an opportunity with this friend. and she was asking me what I was doing later on today. I said, well, I’m gonna be talking to Shannon Popkin on her podcast, Live Like It’s True. And we’d just actually been having a bit of a conversation about just what faith is and how it plays out. And the title of this podcast is great because it’s more than just

cultural normality, which around where I live, there’s quite a bit of cultural Christianity. So the idea that you would live like it’s true because you’re really convinced, like the conviction is deep enough that you would live it out, not just because you think you should, but because you’re convinced. It turned into a good chat, so grateful already. Haven’t even had a conversation with you yet and the fruit is being born.

Shannon Popkin (04:10) Yes. Yes.

Sarah (04:22) Hehehe. Hehehehehe.

Shannon Popkin (04:22) that’s wonderful. Yeah.

And so we’re going to be looking at John 6, 60 through 71. I think it’s so intriguing because there is sort of this crisis, of faith where these people who have been following Jesus for a bit now, they consider themselves his disciples. They’re following along. They want to learn from him.

by the end of the story, they’re gonna walk a different way. There’s gonna be this fork in the road. And so it’s like, when it really comes to will you live like this is true, they’re gonna be like, no, because it doesn’t fit their idea of what truth should be, right? And so let’s, yeah, so let’s talk about this conversation, Jesus is gonna have with his disciples, not just the 12, the conversation starts with a broader group.

We don’t know how many people this is, but a larger group of disciples. And this is a really important day in the life of Christ, know, as we watch it. Could somebody just go back and tell us what has happened in the last 24 hours before this text?

Sarah (05:27) Hmm. I mean, this is one of the biggest days so far. So we’re in John’s Gospel where he’s starting to do these signs, these wonders. And this is the day where he not only feeds 5,000 And wow, he then walks on water.

Shannon Popkin (05:45) Right, yes!

Sarah (05:45) as well. Like, if that wasn’t enough, he’s kind of like to his own disciples, he kind of walks on water and then he declares, he has this amazing, wonderful speech about revealing who he is in the midst of all these signs and wonders. So it’s, in the top 10, top 5 days of your life, like, it’s up there, isn’t it? It’s a big one.

Shannon Popkin (05:50) Yeah.

Absolutely, yes, yeah. Yes, and I mean, all the gospels include it. Am I right on that? I think all the gospels include the bread, correct?

Felicity Carswell (06:05) Yeah.

Sarah (06:13) and the feeding of, yeah,

Felicity Carswell (06:15) The

Shannon Popkin (06:15) So this is the big reveal, both for the disciples, I think on a larger scale, maybe the feeding of the 5000 because Jesus is doing things that they’re waiting for the second Moses.

Sarah (06:15) you

Shannon Popkin (06:26) these have been big, extraordinary moments. And now Jesus has returned back to Capernaum and he’s in the synagogue, right, teaching there. We find that out later in the text. then, and they come to him, they’re like, wait, when did you get here? Jesus, they’ve been looking for him, I’ll just read that verse.

Okay. Verse 25, when they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, Rabbi, when did you get here? Jesus answered, very truly, I tell you, you’re looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed, but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. And so then they get into this whole dialogue about the bread, And there are all of these throwbacks. I love the fact that John includes the fact in verse three of this chapter that this is the Passover festival.

So the Passover, so that’s what they’ve all got on their minds. This is the Passover they are all thinking about and maybe telling their children, I don’t know exactly how they celebrate this day, but they’re telling their children the story of when Moses came and delivered them from, Moses had all of these signs, the 10 plagues, and then delivered them into the wilderness. And Moses was the one who brought, from their estimation, brought the manna from heaven. And so they’re seeing this happen.

How is this playing out? Like what are they seeing when Jesus multiplies the bread? What do you guys think?

Felicity Carswell (07:44) Well, so it’s a wow factor, isn’t it? It’s like this guy, he’s the bread maker. He just brings food. That’s what we need. It’s filling their stomachs. And he refers to the manna, doesn’t he, as he’s talking about this back in chapter six, verse 31. Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness. And so they’re talking about that. saying, this is it. This is the Moses we’ve been waiting for. He’s literally bringing us manna. And they’ve got it a bit, as you refer to, they’ve got it.

Shannon Popkin (07:49) Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Felicity Carswell (08:12) just skew whiff because they’re saying Moses brought the manna, and Jesus like, no, no, it’s not Moses, it’s God. And so what we then have here is an even more, it’s kind of like the jigsaw pieces are being put together, isn’t it, and the reveal as to who Jesus is. So it’s not that Jesus is just Moses, another Moses, actually this is clear that Moses was a signpost to the better Moses, that the God, Jesus himself, the Messiah here.

Shannon Popkin (08:18) Mm hmm. Yeah. God.

Yes. Uh-huh.

Sarah (08:41) Hmm.

Felicity Carswell (08:42) who is bringing the bread and they’re kind of like, I love, there’s just so much mention of bread, isn’t it? One of the things we love to do as we’re getting into the Bible is just look for the repetitions as a way to kind of unlock what the author wants us to see and there’s just so much mention of bread. And I think Sarah and I, we were in John’s Gospel in our podcast relatively recently and we had a conversation about just why bread? Like why is it that bread is the thing that Jesus chooses to provide? And there’s something in bread that is just so satisfying and

Shannon Popkin (08:48) Yes!

Yeah, exactly.

Mmm.

Felicity Carswell (09:12) It’s ever present, isn’t it? It does the job at most meals, or it does in my house, especially as the pantry’s running bare. And so there’s something in what Jesus is doing. And that’s kind of like the big hint, isn’t it? There’s more to this than just filling your stomachs. Actually, what Jesus is doing is bringing huge unending eternal satisfaction and sustenance. And this is it. This is all they need at the hands of Jesus. And at this point, they haven’t…

Shannon Popkin (09:17) Yeah, yes, Yeah.

Yes.

Felicity Carswell (09:41) They haven’t quite seen it yet, have they? And lots of them are not going to see it. Go for it, Sarah.

Sarah (09:43) Well, that’s the kind of one of the surprises of this chapter, isn’t it, though, that you’re getting in the midst of all the repetition of bread, you’ve also got the repetition of grumbling. You’ve got they grumble, they’re grumbling, they’re arguing, they’re grumbling three, four, five times. And there’s kind of this kind of a rumbling undertones and they’re like, this is like one of the best days they will ever see in their lives. Like this is, the top of the top and yet.

Shannon Popkin (10:10) Yes.

Sarah (10:11) there’s this kind of spirit of, of unbelief that’s simmering away and that’s not willing to accept Jesus for who he says he is. And that’s, that’s surprising. That’s gonna take us by surprise. That’s gonna stop us, stop us in our tracks.

Shannon Popkin (10:21) Yes, yes, that’s one of the questions we ask is what’s surprising here? What stands out? Like what makes this a story? if everything just goes according to what you thought it would be, it’s not a story. But this is something that is, we’re not expecting why on this day, when Jesus feeds a day later, he feeds the 5000, he walks on water and they’re grumbling, how can that be? But yet that also is a tie back to the story of Moses and the Exodus.

Sarah (10:42) Mm.

Shannon Popkin (10:47) and the wilderness, they grumbled there too, right? And I think Jesus is calling attention to these parallels, or John at least as he tells the story. I underlined a bunch of times that Jesus comes down from heaven. It’s in verse 33, he’s the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world. Verse 38, he came down from heaven. Verse 41, I am the bread that comes down from heaven, I came down from heaven. So he’s paralleling himself and then he just comes out and says it.

Sarah (10:50) Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (11:17) I am the bread of life. I’m not the one who gives you the bread. even Moses didn’t give you the bread. That was God. I am the one who I am the bread. And this is where they’re not really pleased with that. because again, they have their hearts and minds set on the story of the Exodus. What did Moses do? He led them out from under captivity and they’re experiencing this Roman captivity. That’s what they want.

They want another Moses. In fact, Deuteronomy 18.15 says, the Lord will raise up for you a prophet like me. This is Moses speaking. So a prophet like Moses from among you. And so they’re watching, where’s the second Moses coming? Where is he? Where’s the one who’s gonna lead us out? And once they’re under this captivity, like they’re like, okay, now come on, time for the second Moses to come. Jesus breaks the bread, know, multiplies. here he is, here’s the one.

He’s the one who’s gonna lead us out from under the captivity and Jesus is like, maybe you may have some misconceptions here. So they want Jesus to do something for them. They don’t want Jesus to do something in them, right?

Felicity Carswell (12:18) Mm.

I think that’s right. there’s a, their framework is being just blown out the water. Like this is a different dimension that is being spoken of here. So they were expecting the Messiah to come and do it all within their expected, as you say, the kind of Moses sort of framework. And what we, exactly, and what we have actually, when he says, am the bread of life, this Jesus is the person, the place at which

Shannon Popkin (12:27) Yes.

Moses motif, right? Yeah.

Felicity Carswell (12:52) you feed, like you feed on him. And they were expecting, I think, a bunch of instructions, which they perceived themselves to be very good at following instructions. So that would be seemingly an easier route, which is kind of crazy, isn’t it? Because we know that’s not true. That’s not the easier route. No one is able to fulfil the law. This is it. Jesus lays himself out. I think one of the surprises here is that there’s just no conditionality on this. Like Jesus says,

Shannon Popkin (12:53) Yes.

Yes. Yeah, just tell us what to do.

No. No.

Yes.

Felicity Carswell (13:21) I am the bread of life. it’s one big invitation, isn’t it? Just come to me. only condition is, exactly, the only condition is come to me, believe. And that’s another repeated word throughout this, get believe, believe, believe, believe.

Sarah (13:25) Whoever comes to me, yeah, whoever comes.

Shannon Popkin (13:35) Yeah. And I remember I listened to that episode on your podcast and you that whoever words are you’re you’re you’re opening it. It’s, know, the manna just came to the Israelites, but Jesus is about to blow the doors open on the church and it’s for whoever will come. And yes, feast on me. And I promise we are going to get to the passage here in just a second. There’s just so much to set it up. And but one of the things that Jesus says is verse 53. And I think this is maybe what offends them.

Sarah (13:46) Hmm.

Felicity Carswell (13:53) Hahaha

Shannon Popkin (14:03) very truly I say to you unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. And there, you you talked about the word life being repeated throughout. You have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life and I will raise them up on the last day for my flesh is real and my blood is real. Drink, it’s real food and real drink. eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me I in them. So this is what they’re reacting to, I believe.

like that, and that is hard. Like what? This is a metaphor that is just not easy on the ears, right? It’s not, there are some that like, you know, be gathered under my feathers or, these, metaphors that are just warm and draw you in, but eat my flesh and drink my blood. Like that is just.

Felicity Carswell (14:44) Yeah.

Sarah (14:50) It’s repulsive,

Shannon Popkin (14:51) Repulsive, yeah, that’s the word, it’s repulsive and really offensive and we know Jesus isn’t speaking literally because no one ever took a bite out of his arm like this. This isn’t the way to salvation and yet Jesus is. He is the one who satisfies. Okay, so think we’re ready to read the verses now. So would somebody read verses 60 through 65? And we’re in the NIV translation.

Felicity Carswell (14:52) I

You

Sarah (15:15) Sure, I’d love tea.

For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. He went on to say, This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.

Shannon Popkin (15:27) Okay, so we kind of talked about why the grumbling is a surprise. it’s not what we’re expecting, but is there anything else interesting or astonishing in this part of the story?

Felicity Carswell (15:39) Well, I think the big surprise comes in verse 63. So bearing in mind all that we’ve just talked about and that Jesus is saying, come to me, I am the bread of life. we’re maybe, assuming we’re not in the grumbling crowd, kind of our hearts are soft to this, we’re thinking, okay, bring it on, I’m gonna come to Jesus. And then you realize, I’m not on a hillside in Israel. Like, how does this work? Like, what does it look like to come to Jesus? And here he says in verse 63, the spirit gives life to the flesh, counts for nothing.

The words I have spoken to you, they are full of the Spirit and life. And the line is being drawn between Jesus, who is the bread of life, who is full of life, come to him and you have life, and the words that he speaks, they are full of life. So as we come to Jesus, the means by which we can come to Jesus is through his word. And it means that the words that he has spoken, and that’s not actually just the literal words that he’s spoken, that’s the whole Bible.

We could trace that through, but that is the theology of the word that we have in the Bible. This whole book is spirit and life. And so as we read this, as we engage with it, as it goes to work in us, this is how life through Christ comes about, as the spirit takes this word and works it in our hearts.

Sarah (17:02) And actually, therefore, that’s the much bigger miracle that’s going on here, isn’t it? So yes, we’ve had this extraordinary feeding of the 5,000. Yes, he’s walked on water. Yes, he’s even got somewhere immediately. But what a miracle. Do we take note of the complete surprise and miracle before us that actually every time we open up these words, every time we turn to a page of scripture and we read what it says, that’s spirit and

As one author, Tim Chester puts it, these words are alive and kicking and they’re at work every time we open them up and read them and digest them and meditate them on, memorize them and pray them through. And that’s the surprise here, isn’t it? That he’s kind of exploding what he’s saying, not just to the people on the hillside, but for anyone who comes to him, whoever comes to me, it’s real and it’s ready for anyone to receive in that way.

Shannon Popkin (17:31) Mm.

Felicity Carswell (17:54) Hmm.

Shannon Popkin (17:54) I love that. That’s so good. So I mean, this really is the substance here. It feels like there’s maybe a contrast between they’re looking for tangibles and Jesus is giving them the spiritual. Like they want the bread. you know, if you have a military leader who can make bread, in a moment, like that’s, you know, that’s ideal. you, you know, I actually, when I was thinking of this, I was going to bring up

Sarah (18:14) Yeah, ideal.

Felicity Carswell (18:15) You

Shannon Popkin (18:22) the Valley of Forge and the soldiers in the revolutionary war who were starving. And then I thought, well, maybe Sarah and Felicity might have a different view on that war. A different perspective from the other side of that. yes, could be. I don’t know. Yeah, so maybe we’ll set that example aside. I don’t know. But if you can picture soldiers who are starving to death in battle, and you have the one who can make the bread or just touch.

Felicity Carswell (18:33) Controversial transatlantic topic there.

Shannon Popkin (18:48) the wounded soldier in their heels, like, right? This is kind of military leader you need. You’ve got the supernatural on your side. You can overthrow Rome. can have your own exodus. You can have freedom. You can have, can build your kingdom the way that you wanted it to be. And yet Jesus is like, no, no, no, this isn’t what I’ve come for. And this is a huge gap between their expectation and what they’re experiencing. And this is offensive, offensive to them. And yet Jesus consistently points them.

like the surprise to them and to them it’s not a good surprise like you’ve just said Felicity. It’s not, they’re not like, yes, we have the words that are going to produce in us life, eternal life. another thing I kept noticing is it’s the bread of life. It’s not just the bread, I’m the bread. It’s the bread of life. This bread connected to life and eternal life and being raised up in the final day or

Felicity Carswell (19:25) You

Hmm.

Shannon Popkin (19:43) Yeah, raise them up in the last day, raise them up, that’s repeated, raise them up, raise them up, eternal life being raised up. He’s talking about the overarching story and they’re stuck in their little slice of the centuries of narrative, right?

Felicity Carswell (19:57) Yeah, and it’s something which probably explodes our own framework a bit as well. I think that in the Christian world, even however good your church is, know the Bible is important, and we love to get it open, and we go to Bible study, and we hear it preached on a Sunday, and maybe we talk about it a bit with our brothers and sisters in Christ. as we’re in the Word, are we really persuaded that

This is what is happening, life and spirit right here. And so that’s why it’s worth getting into Bible study. That’s why it’s worth getting the Bible open with your friends and on a Sunday, whatever it may be. But that conviction, that just changes things a bit in terms of a heart level shift in what it looks like to run to Jesus. And if we’re really persuaded that Jesus is the bread of life and that

Shannon Popkin (20:32) Mmm.

Mmm.

Felicity Carswell (20:51) Bread of life that is all that we need. Like this is it. This is sustenance on into eternity. If we’re really persuaded of that, then we should be running headlong to his words. But.

Shannon Popkin (21:03) That’s how we that’s how we live like it’s true, right? Like, how do we? Yes. Yeah.

Felicity Carswell (21:05) That’s it. I think that’s it. Yeah.

Sarah (21:09) Yeah, but I think also you need to leave room for the people who are just crawling their way and feel like, Lord, I’m faltering week by week and I feel like I’m not doing enough or I’m not coming enough or I’m not kind of, I’m not there as much as I want to be. And actually he just says, whoever comes to me, I will never.

Felicity Carswell (21:28) Mmm.

Sarah (21:29) turn away and that it’s that both and isn’t it? Come and feast on the richness of what I’m giving you and come when you can only just claw your way and you can’t do anything. Just acknowledging the both and of wanting to run towards him but also some people are feeling like they’re just only clinging on and that’s okay too because it’s Jesus we’re clinging to. It’s not the strength of

Shannon Popkin (21:54) Yeah.

Sarah (21:58) how we’re coming, if that made sense.

Felicity Carswell (21:59) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (22:00) Right. Well, Sarah, think you’re you’re kind of like representing the way that they first came he says in verse 27, do not.

work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life. There it is again, the life. And they asked him, well, what must we do to do the work that God requires? So they’re like, okay, give us our assignment. what is it that God wants us to do? And Jesus is like, no, no, no, no. It’s not what you would do, but what I have done or will do at this point. He’s going to die on the cross.

Sarah (22:28) Hmm.

Shannon Popkin (22:32) And their work is this to believe in the one that has been sent, So how is belief the correct way to come to these words?

Sarah (22:42) Well, interestingly, in the next sentence after he says that these words are full of spirit and life, he then says, yet there are some of you who do not believe. And that’s really sobering, isn’t it? That actually you’ve got Jesus, the very Son of God, standing here on this mountainside. He’s done all these miracles. He’s saying this massive statement about his words. And yet the reality is, not everyone’s going to believe.

Shannon Popkin (22:49) Exactly, yeah.

Sarah (23:06) to him.

That’s sad, isn’t it? I think just acknowledging that that’s not how it’s meant to play out. That’s not how it’s meant to be. He’s meant to be the successful one. He’s the son of God saying this. But also how reassuring that it’s okay that when we extend this word to others, that we’re to expect that not everyone will want it because not everyone wants Jesus. And I think that is just a really comforting reassurance as we even think about the power of this word.

but also the nature of the human heart and the fact that, yeah, Jesus says at the end of this passage, only those the Father draws will come to me. That even that is according to the Lord’s sovereign will, isn’t it? So I think, yeah, there’s a comfort in there, but it’s also a sobering reality, isn’t it, of the nature of belief.

Shannon Popkin (23:55) so sobering. mean Judas is sitting there listening as Jesus says these things right and he does not believe and Jesus knows it. He in the next verse Jesus had known from the beginning which of them Judas did not believe and who would betray him and like you just said this is why I told you no one can come unless the father has enabled them.

Felicity Carswell (23:56) Hmm.

Sarah (24:18) Hmm.

Shannon Popkin (24:19) or like has drawn them he draws us he enables us to hear the this the word that is full of spirit and life and to desire it and and if Jesus can have one of his disciples walk away

Sarah (24:31) Hmm.

Shannon Popkin (24:36) I think you’re right Sarah, I hadn’t thought about that. Like that actually takes the pressure off of us and our disciple making, right?

Sarah (24:40) Hmm.

It’s the parable of the sower all over, it? That actually the powerful seed, the seed is so powerful because it’s God’s very word. But actually the nature of the human heart is there’s going to be a whole range of responses. And we see that here. Yeah. As we go further on into this passage, we see that and that’s okay. It’s not like, of course we want everyone to respond in faith. Of course we want everyone to run to Jesus because he is the only way, the truth and the life. But actually.

Shannon Popkin (24:44) It is.

Mmm.

Sarah (25:10) it’s not our circle, as I keep saying to our kids about a lot of different things, that’s not in your circle of responsibility, that’s not your circle, and that’s okay.

Shannon Popkin (25:16) Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So in the one sense, we live like this passage is true when we go to the word expecting it to be the powerful seed that will produce life in the rocks, right? And just produce out of nothing. And yet we also live like it’s true when we’re like, it’s not, you I don’t have to lose sleep and be anxious and fret

Felicity Carswell (25:17) Hahaha

Sarah (25:27) Mm.

Shannon Popkin (25:39) There really isn’t anything I can do. It really all depends on the word and the Father drawing them. I think I’m like the disciples. Give me my assignment. Tell me what should I do? What must we do to do the work that God requires? Tell me my part. And Jesus is like, no, no, no. Your part is to believe. And this word is what will produce. It will satisfy. And I am the bread.

Sarah (25:42) Mm.

Yeah.

Felicity Carswell (25:53) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (26:06) pieces fit together. If you want the satisfaction, come to me. And so, well, let’s go on and read the 66 through 71. How did you know how did they respond after this?

Felicity Carswell (26:16) Shall I read it?

Shannon Popkin (26:16) Yes, please.

Okay, so what’s surprising here or interesting?

Sarah (26:47) I mean, such stark responses. There’s three really stark responses here, isn’t there? First, the many turn and no longer want to follow him. They just don’t want Jesus and they turn in their droves. The second, that Peter really wonderfully seems to see who Jesus is and what he’s offering. And yet, in the next breath, another of Jesus’ close friends, Judas.

Shannon Popkin (26:59) many years.

Sarah (27:12) I mean, yeah, it’s just a very sad situation, it, that he’s nowhere, with the Lord and doesn’t want him.

Shannon Popkin (27:16) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Among him, but not of him, right? Like sitting right there among the, like the 12. How can this be? And I feel like those three categories that you just kind of laid out there, Sarah, that’s really what we face in the world. there are those who turn against Jesus. There are those who like Peter, this is God’s work in Peter that he would see it correctly.

Felicity Carswell (27:28) you

Shannon Popkin (27:40) Lord, we have nowhere else to go. You your words and there it is again, the words, right? Your words of eternal life. You have them. We have nowhere else to go to get them but you. then the one who maybe I think of Judas as the one who is among us, you know, among the followers of Jesus, like in church on Sunday, in Bible study, in

our families and you know maybe in some ways projecting a life that that looks like a disciple and yet isn’t that’s really scary isn’t it?

Sarah (28:15) Hmm.

Felicity Carswell (28:16) And highlights again just the heart level nature of what it is to accept Jesus and his word. That it’s not about our works, it’s not about doing what’s expected or that Peter’s sort of just clarity is amazing, isn’t it? Where else shall we go? It’s such an honest statement. And yeah, we have come.

Shannon Popkin (28:32) Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Sarah (28:39) But so wonderful as well as we see Peter through rest of John’s Gospel because we know, everyone knows that that kind of stark understanding that has there, he falters doesn’t he? He wrestles, he fails and he comes back and the nature of belief as we’ve been talking about, the nature of faith is not dependent on us but on Christ and him holding and drawing his people to himself.

Shannon Popkin (28:51) Of course, yes, yes.

Mm-hmm.

Sarah (29:07) And that again is such a comfort, isn’t it? Because yeah, we all have our own stories, don’t we?

Shannon Popkin (29:13) Yeah,

Felicity Carswell (29:13) was just going to say, think it’s helpful that we’re then, not, our expectations are right, aren’t they? So as the word goes out and as we, we have, we hold out the word to others that we would expect then this to be the mixture of responses rather than being surprised and discouraged. Cause I think that’s, that’s something which can happen, especially if you’re seeking to share the gospel with unbelievers and you think this is it, this is it, the powerful word, I’ve done it, I’ve got it. And then no one’s interested.

Shannon Popkin (29:27) Yes.

Felicity Carswell (29:41) And it can be really discouraging and it can make you think, is God working? Is this really the real deal? Have I done it wrong? All of these things. As we see the range of reactions here, actually God is still working even when someone walks away. That doesn’t diminish God’s power. That is actually God is still working even as the gospel is rejected.

Shannon Popkin (30:00) It’s so true. I imagine it was hard to watch all of those disciples turning away. they were a larger group and now they’re they’re shrinking. the group thins and then he’s turning and it’s just the 12. I don’t think this means that everyone turned away. It says many of the disciples turned back, the many turned back and no longer followed him. But, you know, again, he’s meeting with the core and he’s like, yeah, and even among you, there’s one who isn’t truly believing in me.

I think that’s probably hard, and that’s hard for us too as a disciples to see the church fracturing and large portions of people following the world or falling away. We have whole generations we’ve lost a generation of young people. The statistics are sobering how few of our young people are actually still following.

That is just, it’s so disturbing and I’m sure it was disturbing for the disciples as well. And yet Jesus, I think it’s interesting that he says, you don’t want to leave too, do you? I wonder what do you hear in that? You know, is Jesus, is that hurt or what do you think?

Sarah (31:04) I think it’s really, I just think it’s kind of dwelling on this point a bit wider as well. Like the people are wanting satisfaction now, here and now, aren’t they? They were kind of wanting to be fed right now. And all of what Jesus is saying is actually what you’re hungering after is me and is in heaven, is the hunger for eternity with God. And actually that’s not satisfying them now. And so they’re turning their backs because they don’t want to.

Shannon Popkin (31:14) Mm-hmm.

Sarah (31:30) Jesus if he’s not going to provide for the here and now. And isn’t that the case with so many of us as well? We want Jesus because we want what he can give us right now. Like, really, do I have to kind of bear the fruit of the spirit and grow in patience and actually wait till heaven to have that satisfaction? Like, I’m not sure that’s quite what I was kind of in this game for kind of thing. it’s, he’s sifting, isn’t he? Like he’s sifting out those who are willing to actually

Shannon Popkin (31:35) Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Sarah (31:55) have their focal point on heaven and on him in heaven and those who are just living for the here and now. And that’s, that’s challenging, isn’t it? That is challenging for all of us because we all live like we want satisfaction now, don’t we?

Felicity Carswell (32:08) Hahaha

Shannon Popkin (32:10) Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, I had a friend years ago who had a crisis of faith because she was praying, praying, praying that God would heal her sister who was dying of cancer. And her sister was not a believer and her sister died of cancer. And so this created for my friend a huge crisis of faith, which, you know, God had not done as she expected. She prayed with such faith that God would do this thing.

she did what she could do, right? And she expected there to be a result in that result. Wasn’t what she hoped for. And so her expectation and her experience, they, they were, they did not coincide. And so she walked away from her faith. and that created in my little

Felicity Carswell (32:41) Hmm.

Shannon Popkin (32:58) group of believers, a crisis for all of us. Like how could she be among us and walk away? We didn’t understand. And so, What is our expectation? You know, if we,

Felicity Carswell (33:06) I think that’s key, they’re like, yeah, what is our expectation? like that eternal realities would be shaping our expectations rather than the here and now, not that God isn’t with us in the here and now, but what does it look like to trust him with the outcome and the ultimate outcome, not just what’s going to happen next week or in my lifetime. That’s hard, isn’t it? And I think the more we come to the word, the more we trust that the word is where we’re going to get that.

not only the sustenance and the satisfaction but actually the shape of life, like what we are to expect, then the more we’re going to be happy to live like it’s true because we’re more persuaded, like the Word is going to work in us. So we would fully embrace what God is doing and how he’s doing it and not that we wouldn’t be challenged by the situation that you’ve described and it’d be a struggle, that’s a real struggle isn’t it? But to be able to trust God in the struggle, that’s…

Shannon Popkin (34:01) of course. Yeah.

Sarah (34:06) It’s placing yourself continually in the bigger story, I guess, isn’t it? of actually living, living as he, he tells you what the story is rather than us trying to construct our own stories and fit him in somehow. Like it’s, yeah, the willingness to submit to God’s story.

Shannon Popkin (34:06) Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yes, yes.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. I often will say, if I were to write my own story, I would write it like at one of those little baby books, the chunky board books, you know? Like, really short, to the point, you know, happy ending, every page is a sunny sunshine picture, and then you get to the end, and it’s all good, and there’s no bad parts, and there’s no valleys or darkness. And yet, how unsatisfying. Like, for me, like, I am the main character on every single page, right?

Felicity Carswell (34:38) You

Shannon Popkin (34:52) I can’t have both. can’t write my own story and be part of this bigger overarching story. And I think what you just called us to, both of you, think is this larger perspective that we have the here and now and we have the there and then. And both of them are part, we’re part of the story that includes both of them. I…

Sarah (35:11) Hmm.

Shannon Popkin (35:13) just finished a Bible study on the life of Sarah with Our Daily Bread. It’s called Shaped by God’s Promises. And so I thought it was so interesting to look, I kind of made a glossary at the end of the book of God’s promises and the tangibles belong in the there and then category. You know, we just do not have many tangible promises.

for the here and now. have a lot of intangible promises, you know? We’re forgiven. He is with us. He’s working all things together for good. Like all of these intangibles, these spiritual blessings, he gives us peace. We have confidence in him. But the tangibles, they’re also part of the story. Like let’s not forget, there will come a day when…

We will be completely physically satisfied, right? There’ll be no more hunger, no more pain, no more tears, no more cancer, no more death. Like there will be this eternal life and that is part of our story. And yet when we live in the here and now as though like grumble, you know, like these people in the story were grumbling work, we’re almost like capping off the story as they hear now we’re forgetting about that last part. And Jesus is the bread right now that sustains us.

until we get to that final chapter, right?

Sarah (36:22) Hmm.

Felicity Carswell (36:24) so true, so true. And it’s just a challenge, isn’t it, to then keep coming to Jesus. And we say that phrase so easily, I think, but in reality, what gets in the way of me coming to Jesus? And so often it’s because I think that something else will improve my here and now, because it’s so easy to get caught up on the here and now, isn’t it? And to sort of forget the rest of the story and the big picture and all the things that you’ve just helpfully outlined. And so that…

Shannon Popkin (36:49) Yes.

Felicity Carswell (36:53) the false kind of promises that we encounter everywhere, they kind of, well, if I just begin to believe that a bit, you know, maybe it’s better that I make a stack of money or have, the most popular person or, you know, whatever it may be, I think they’re the things that then actually, they become a bit of a roadblock to me then running towards Jesus in this way. And one of my expectations just get all befuddled and I’m going to the wrong place.

Shannon Popkin (37:20) Yes, yes, yes, yes. so the two. So the two of you, how do you come to the word as this life sustaining place to run to Christ? How like, how maybe you can think of a time when you were distracted and you running after something else that you thought would satisfy and then and then you like, no, come back to the word, come back to Christ. Can you think of anything recently?

Sarah (37:23) Good word.

Felicity Carswell (37:24) Yeah, thanks.

Sarah (37:44) I think it’s reality that so often feel like I’m chasing after other things that I think will quench the thirst or stave the hunger. And every time they fail, don’t they? Every time. I think of even just, you know, we’ve been thinking of school places for our eldest in the last few weeks and thinking that will satisfy that. you know, getting the right school and getting the right choice and kind of making, you know, trying to get the best possible outcome out of that. And then we’ll be okay. And then things will feel okay. actually.

No, you’re constantly, it’s that kind of ecclesiasties isn’t it? You’re constantly chasing something that will not satisfy the deepest desires in your heart. It just cannot. And so when you come back to Jesus’ words here, there’s just such comfort isn’t there that whoever comes to me will never hunger or thirst. And so when I come to him in an early morning and I’m feeling a bit drained, I feel like, well, just it’s been a bit of a rough week.

Shannon Popkin (38:20) the wind.

Sarah (38:41) What a comfort to be able to open my Bible and to read these words and go, thank you Lord, that this is where life is. This is what I need to hear, that you are my daily bread and that you are my good shepherd in you. lack nothing. And so I can confidently walk through my day to day trusting that promise. And I’m going to falter again and I’m not going to get it right. And I’m to come back to you again and confess my sin, I know, but the reminder and the reassurance.

that whoever comes to me, will never, you know, will never turn them away. And I just, we just so need that. I continually need that. And I, you know, I keep surprising myself. I keep needing that lesson, but that’s okay, isn’t it? And just kind of be able to come as we are knowing that he’s where life is at.

Shannon Popkin (39:16) Never,

Mm-hmm, yeah.

Felicity Carswell (39:31) I think I’ve just been reminded again and again that it is in the daily deposits of that. if I take a big bite every now and then, that’s actually not, that’s not going to satisfy in the same way as when I keep on coming back and whatever my, I’m a roller coaster of emotions and whatever my emotional state.

Sarah (39:46) Hmm.

Felicity Carswell (39:53) that is not, that shouldn’t determine whether I come to Jesus or not. I’m at, whatever my morning feels like, that’s when I should just come to the Word. And the expectation that, even if I come to the Word and I’ve, you I love to have a cup of tea, and I’ve got my routine and I’m in it, and I’m like, this is it, this is gonna like, I’m just gonna be so excited for the rest of the day. And that’s not actually how it is. It might be like that, but it’s not always like that. And so the expectation that,

Shannon Popkin (40:20) No.

Felicity Carswell (40:22) It’s in the daily deposit of feeding on Jesus that I am then sustained and strengthened and I want to keep coming back. And it’s so true that the more I find the more I’m in the Word, the more I want to be in the Word. One of the greatest blessings of Sarah and I doing our podcast together is that we have been in the Word together for over three years now. And it’s just so regular and we want to do it more and more, not really for the podcast sake, but actually for the sat.

Shannon Popkin (40:35) That’s so true.

Felicity Carswell (40:50) just the very reality that we get to be in the Word together. And I think that’s just been a really helpful thing. And so there’s a regularity to that, but there’s also just the value of being in it with other people that as we feast together, throughout the Bible, meals happen together, don’t they? That’s just a very lovely thing in our lives. The gift that God has given us to eat food together and actually feasting on the Word together. That’s what Sarah and I.

Sarah (41:01) Hmm.

Shannon Popkin (41:02) Exactly.

Felicity Carswell (41:14) I mean, we’re like a broken record, aren’t we, Sarah, in our podcast? We’re always telling people, just grab a friend, grab a sister, it’s the best. Because this word is worth it, and it’s enhanced by that as well.

Shannon Popkin (41:16) Yeah.

Sarah (41:16) Hehehehe

Shannon Popkin (41:27) Yes, yes. Yeah, I that’s really one of the biggest reasons I started this podcast too is just because I so love having conversations like this and then sharing sharing them with others like it is such a joy. And I was in a season I believe I was finishing writing a book and I just wasn’t you know, in that community or it was during COVID, you know, so I think a lot of things happened during COVID. So but there it is such a feast to come together and remind ourselves and be in the world.

Sarah (41:49) Yeah

Felicity Carswell (41:49) Yeah!

Sarah (41:56) sometimes you just need that someone else to come alongside you and say, come on, let’s come and read this word and just see what we see and let’s take it to the Lord. And sometimes you don’t feel like it, but you always, always rejoice that you’ve done it afterwards. You never regret coming to the Word. And I just think that there’s something just wonderful isn’t there about actually, we have such a precious gift to our sisters in Christ to be able to say, should we just open this up even for five minutes right now? I know your kids are all around you. I know it’s not ideal, but

Shannon Popkin (42:01) Yes. Yeah.

Yes.

Sarah (42:25) These were the spirit and life and should we just enjoy them together just in this moment? And just, just that kind of thing is just so, so good for the heart, isn’t it? And the soul to be doing that with others together.

Shannon Popkin (42:36) I love that, that you brought it, you know, like when you’re in conversation with someone, like shouldn’t the word be part of what you’re talking about? If it truly is, you know, full of spirit in life, if we truly believe that that is what we can give each other, you know, let’s eat this together. And isn’t a meal shared with a friend so much better than just your snack, you know, at your counter by yourself, right? And so like, yes, open the word together, remind them, share something you just read. Like that’s…

Sarah (42:48) Hmm.

Felicity Carswell (42:59) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (43:06) listener, that’s our challenge for you today. Open the Word with someone else, whether it’s your husband, your children, a friend. If you’re in conversation with somebody else, open the Word together today and enjoy the Feast of Jesus. So thank you.

Felicity Carswell (43:21) Amen. We’re all in. All in for that.

Shannon Popkin (43:23) All right, Ellen, I love it. And right here with us too, come back and listen. Come and visit Two Sisters in a Cup of Tea podcast. I know you’re gonna love it. And live like it’s true is always here for you as well. So thank you so much, Sarah and Felicity. It’s been such a joy to have this conversation with you.

Felicity Carswell (43:27) Yeah.

Sarah (43:43) That’s a joy, thank you.

Felicity Carswell (43:44) Thank you

Shannon Popkin (43:45) And where can listeners find you? On Instagram, I believe, right?

Sarah (43:49) We’re on Instagram, yes, and our website twosistersnickft.com. You’ll find everything there.

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