Shannon Popkin (00:01) Well, Dannah Gresh is the founder of True Girl, and she’s the co-host of Revive Our Hearts with Nancy DeMass Welgermuth and a bestselling author. She’s written over 28 books, including one of her True Girl Bible studies that we’re going to talk about today called Esther Becoming a Girl of Purpose. So Dannah lives in State College, Pennsylvania with her husband, Bob, and they have a hobby farm with

How do you say this, Dannah? A of… A menagerie. Okay, I’m really glad you helped me out with that one. A menagerie of animals. So thank you for being with us.

Dannah Gresh (00:32) Menagerie, menagerie, yes. It’s a fancy

word for collection. Yeah, I’m so glad to be with you. I adore you and I’m so honored to be on your podcast.

Shannon Popkin (00:49) you are so kind to be here. Okay, so Hobby Farm, I’ve seen pictures of like what, little horses and goats and you have sheep, right?

Dannah Gresh (00:59) Well,

have I have one sheep and let me tell you what it is not a compliment that the Lord uses sheep to explain us because they are not the brightest bulb in the drawer. Okay, I have had to get that guy his head gets stuck in the fence all the time. All he has to do is back up. But no, I need it’s a big deal. One time we had to cut his head out of the fence. So yeah, I learned much about myself as the Lord’s sheep from that very

Shannon Popkin (01:06) They’re not.

That’s hilarious.

my goodness.

Dannah Gresh (01:27) Not so smart sheep.

Shannon Popkin (01:29) Well,

I love that you love animals and you talk about them a lot, like on Instagram and stuff. And I was thinking of you because I got to see dolphins in Mexico. We went on vacation. you swam with dolphins before?

Dannah Gresh (01:35) Yeah.

not in like a dolphins exhibit, but like in the wild, I got to swim with some dolphins. It was a sort of accidental thing. I know. And this one teenage-ish looking dolphin, he wasn’t a baby, but he wasn’t full grown. Like he just stuck around and played with my kids. And then this was like, went on for like five minutes and then you could see Mama Bear coming.

Shannon Popkin (01:49) Okay. my goodness. That’s better.

my goodness.

Dannah Gresh (02:09) She like went underneath us and you could see him like stand at attention and straight down to mama. This is the most thrilling thing of my life. One of the greatest thrills of my life. Did you love it?

Shannon Popkin (02:09) Okay.

I bet. How

fun. I did. They had this place where like a fenced off area, in water. And they would swim, have them swim right next to you you could touch them. We took pictures with them. It was so great. I just loved being there.

Dannah Gresh (02:24) Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

animals, I love animals because Romans 1.20 says that creation teaches us about God’s character and his power. And there has never been an encounter I’ve had with an animal that if I don’t pause and look closely, I don’t see the character and power of our great God. And so that’s why I love him. I’m really loving Jesus. I’m loving the Lord through his creation.

Shannon Popkin (02:57) That’s so great. Well, and you also love girls, and I love that about you. I love and man, Dannah, this is my first glance at a true girl Bible study. But I just love this book. I just love I love how you open it with meeting them where they are, talking about even what is the Bible? Why is it special? How do we zoom in? How do we zoom out

Dannah Gresh (03:01) I do.

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (03:22) It’s a book made of books, you know? so, man, tell me more about True Girl and these True Girl Bible studies. Like, what’s your heart behind this?

Dannah Gresh (03:25) Mm-hmm.

I’m

Well, the True Girl Bible study started in 2017, 18 when I was doing the research to write lies girls believe and the truth that sets them free, a book that I partnered up with Nancy DeMoss Walgammoth to produce. We surveyed 1,500 tween girls, church going girls. These are our girls, right? And we wanted to know what were the lies they were grappling with? What were the issues they were struggling with? We wanted to write with a lot of accuracy.

And one of the most alarming pieces of information in there was I did a focus group with the moms on the side and I asked them, does your daughter spend time in God’s word on her own? Is she learning that habit? You know, we teach our kids the habit of brushing their teeth. We teach them the habit of saying thank you, of going to bed on time, of making their bed, of doing their homework, all the things, right?

are they learning the habit of being in God’s word, going to God’s word every day as their bread of life, their true bread of life. And this is interesting. 30 % of the moms said yes, my 12 years or under girl is in God’s word every day. And then another like 30 % said no, she’s not. And the rest were like, I don’t know. And the I don’t know scared me the most. I was like,

Shannon Popkin (04:53) wow. Yeah, it would.

Dannah Gresh (04:57) You have to know this. And so

I set out, as soon as I finished writing Lies Girls Believe, I set out to start to create a easy study method for this age group because I looked around and didn’t see just the right tools for these girls. And moms were saying, one of the reasons my girls aren’t in the word of God is because the tools don’t exist. So a method of Bible study, we call it the True Girl 4Z study method. It’s basically a simplified and

Shannon Popkin (05:08) Yeah.

Dannah Gresh (05:27) inductive study method. zoom out for context, you zoom in to get the particulars, you zero in on what does this mean in my life today, and then you zip it up in prayer. So it’s pretty simple, pretty easy to remember, but they are learning how to really grapple with and study God’s word when they do it. And then of course, we wanted to get it out there. So we’ve written four Bible studies. Esther is one of them.

Shannon Popkin (05:38) I love that. Yeah.

Dannah Gresh (05:52) This year we’re traveling the country and doing the True Girl pop-up party where girls can come learn in a workshop the whole 4Z method of study. it’s thrilling me to have a front row seat to see that eureka moment in their eyes when they by themselves look at a Bible verse, examine it and go, I get it. I know what this is meaning for my life, what it says about God, what it says about me, what it says about my world.

Shannon Popkin (06:13) Yeah.

is so great. Yeah, that’s that is what they need. They need to encounter like this is a supernatural book. And it is I mean, it’s got concepts that we will spend the rest of our lives trying to dig out for ourselves. And yet it’s simple enough for a girl. And so we have a lot of moms and grandmas and aunties and mentors who listen to this podcast. And I just want you to have this passion to

Dannah Gresh (06:31) Okay.

Mmm.

Shannon Popkin (06:47) give your girls in your life the Bible because they need it. They have to have the encounter with God through His Word. It’s not just the Bible, but the Bible is how they encounter God, you know? It’s like…

Dannah Gresh (06:51) Yeah.

Yes, right.

Exactly. In those 4Z workshops, we are using John 1 because in John 1, we see that it says, the beginning was the Word and the Word was God and the Word was with God and the Word was God. So, well, the Word is Jesus. So when you spend time in your Bible, you are really spending time with the Word, Jesus, and the most

beautiful important thing that we can do in our lives is to grow in our intimacy with Jesus. How do we do that? We do that by being in our Bibles. And so we don’t tell the girls that. We don’t just say, hey, this is what John 1.1 says. We say, hey, read John 1.1. And if you’re 10 years old, that’s a pretty hard passage to grapple with. In the beginning of the word, the word was with God and the word was God. That’s poetry and they have to really dig.

Shannon Popkin (07:30) Yeah.

Right. Right.

Dannah Gresh (07:51) about halfway through the workshop, you start to see these little eyeballs glistening with, get it, Jesus, this is about Jesus. And then they start to understand what I just shared with you and I love it.

Shannon Popkin (07:54) That’s so special.

Well, and I think stories in particular, I’m intrigued by stories, you know, we’re going to deviate a little bit from our typical episode here. But usually what we do is we take a story in the Bible and we zoom in and we look at it as a story. stories are easy for us to access. They’re easy for us to remember. They package up. They’re sort of like a zip file on your computer. I mean, think about

I think the Good Samaritan is about 300 words, the woman and her copper coins, that’s like two, sentences or these stories. And yet they package up such amazing truth. And so they’re short and yet they’re like zipped in and we…

Dannah Gresh (08:35) I know, I love that one.

Shannon Popkin (08:45) Like we could have bookshelves filled with books written about each of these stories in the Bible. That’s how much they encapsulate. And so that’s, think we start young with our girls and the purpose, like I always say on this podcast, this isn’t just for you. Like it’s not just for you to know the story and live like the story is true. It’s for you to share the story with others. Like stories are a great way to pass on the truth and to have conversation with your kids. So,

Dannah Gresh (08:56) Yes.

Hmm.

Shannon Popkin (09:14) So, okay, I wanted to ask though first before we get into the content of this book, tell me more about those pop-up parties. What is that? What’s that all about?

Dannah Gresh (09:22) Yeah, those are, we are only doing four of them this year. We did one last year at the Museum of the Bible. We’re doing four this year, East Coast, West Coast, South and Midwest. And it’s a two, it’s a Friday night and Saturday morning event. Friday night, we’re just gonna worship and teach and encourage. We have the best True Girl Worship team. We have produced our own albums.

that are kind of the sound of radio Disney. So the sound that an eight to 12 year old girl would love, but it’s infused with the truth of God’s word. And they love it because it’s not your mom’s worship. It’s like their worship, you know, it’s a little boppy, but it’s it’s got this rich, rich theology in it for them. And then on Saturday morning, they will come back and they’ll be all excited about learning the 4Z method because we’ll get them

psyched about that on Friday night. And then we will spend four hours learning to study the Bible. And moms have our first one, like we said, hey, how did it go? We did some zoom calls afterwards because it was our first time. What difference have you seen your daughter night and day? They’re telling us they’re saying my daughter wants to study her Bible. It’s not me saying, hey, you should read your Bible. She’s like, hey, mom, let’s read our Bible. And

Shannon Popkin (10:19) Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Wow. Yeah.

Dannah Gresh (10:45) There’s a hunger that didn’t exist before because they really understand it. They can taste it. They can see that the Lord is good because they’ve learned how to use it.

Shannon Popkin (10:55) That’s, that is just amazing. I think most often we approach our kids with a topical kind of, I need to package it in a way that’s appealing to them. But I love your getting I’m excited about God’s Word, because God’s Word is all of the topics. It’s all of the information and it’s all it’s leading them again to the person that they need to be in relationship with. So

Dannah Gresh (11:10) That’s it.

Shannon Popkin (11:20) Take us back to eight-year-old Dannah. How did you first encounter your Bible? I have a feeling that who you were as a girl has kind of infused this excitement and passion for girls today.

Dannah Gresh (11:35) Yeah, who you are now is who you’re becoming. That’s not my quote. That’s a quote from Art DeMoss, Nancy DeMoss Walgammoth’s dad said that to her when she was growing up. And when I was eight years old, my mom had within the last few years had a really rich encounter with Jesus Christ. She didn’t grow up knowing the Lord and she came to know him. It was a beautiful, radical transformation of her life. And so when I was eight years old, she

brought me a Bible and a devotional tool and she said, Christians read their Bibles. Like, you should get at it girl, what’s holding you back? And I didn’t know that it wasn’t something that most kids didn’t do. I just knew my mom told me this and she treated me, she never treated me like there was a junior Christianity or a junior Holy Spirit or junior Bible study. It was just, you’re a Christian. And so this is what Christians do. This is how they grow.

Shannon Popkin (12:13) huh.

Yeah. Yeah.

Dannah Gresh (12:34) So I learned to study the Bible starting at the age of eight, loving it, and on a pretty regular basis, almost daily. And at the same time, went to a missions conference at my church where we were invited to heed the call of the Lord, like follow him with all our hearts, with all our minds, with all our souls, with all of our energy. And those two things kind of happened the same year and crashed right into each other.

Shannon Popkin (13:02) Wow.

Dannah Gresh (13:04) and sort of became my life’s calling because I want eight to 12 year old girls to be in their Bibles the way that my mom wanted me to be in the Bible.

Shannon Popkin (13:09) Yeah,

I love it. And I love that she just gave you a Bible. And I’m all for choosing a translation that is more their reading level. You know, we have a plethora of translations. But give them a Bible, you know, that’s like, don’t be afraid of that. I heard one mom tell me about how I think her daughter was seven. And she had given her this Bible and her daughter was so excited. It was her first day.

Dannah Gresh (13:19) Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (13:36) to go up and read her Bible. And she started on the first page, Genesis 1.1, and began reading. And she came down and she said to her mom, I had no idea it would be so exciting. I just love that. I just love that. It is, it is, yeah.

Dannah Gresh (13:47) And you know, so and like part of that is the Holy Spirit in her. And that’s

what, that’s I think what we forget as parents or older adult teachers is like, we don’t have to worry about this working. God’s Spirit makes it work in us. He can make it work in them too.

Shannon Popkin (13:59) Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, he can teach them. And

so, yeah, I just love the idea of putting Bibles in their hands, but I also love this tool. Like, you are coming up with Bible studies, and these are great. And I mean, like, as an author, I’m looking at what you did here, and I know the amount of work behind this, because you’ve got to take these rich, you know, like, it’s like the zip file. It’s bringing in the massive story of Esther and all of the theological implications, and then making it

Dannah Gresh (14:20) Okay.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (14:39) girl ready, you know, and I love the way the language that you use is so approachable, like the girls rule boys drool thing and so it’s it’s a really I’m just recommending it right off the bat here in this episode. But so the theme of the book, the title is Esther becoming a girl of purpose. And you’re talking about the purpose. Why did you zero in on purpose with the book of Esther?

Dannah Gresh (14:41) Yeah.

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Well, I think we look at Esther and we think, she was so strong and she was so wonderful and she did something so important and so heroic for God’s kingdom, which is true. But what we don’t do is look at her story within the meta narrative of scripture. And that makes her the hero instead of her a part of the hero story, which the hero is Jesus. And so

Shannon Popkin (15:24) Right?

Mm-hmm.

Dannah Gresh (15:35) I wanted to kind of turn it on its tail a little bit for girls because there are so many scriptures that are taken out of context when we don’t use them accurately. And I think sometimes the heart of Esther is taken out of context a little bit in that it, don’t, we don’t, first of all, we don’t see the name of God in the book of Esther. So that’s kind of an interesting thing, but.

Shannon Popkin (15:44) Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Dannah Gresh (16:00) We also don’t see it in the book of Ruth. That doesn’t mean he’s not there. That means he’s there working in the background. His providence is at work. what I think is so amazing is that you see Esther surrendering as a faithful Jewish girl in a very godless culture. Not that unlike ours. When it looks like all hope is lost for this being a safe place for Jewish people. And you could say that

Shannon Popkin (16:04) Right. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Dannah Gresh (16:29) for Christians in many nations right now. I don’t think that we are persecuted, but we’re definitely not applauded anymore in our culture. There’s a lot of very dangerous ideas, yes. And so she’s living in that. And for her to stand up against it, she wasn’t like wanting to wear a crown and be famous and be an influencer. She just wanted to obey.

Shannon Popkin (16:38) Well, there’s a lot of dangerous ideas even in our free culture.

Dannah Gresh (16:59) God and in honoring her uncle, her cousin Mordecai and in listening to his advice, God was able to use her and she was part of his big plan. And so what we want girls to hear when they study the Book of Esther is not that you can be an amazing woman and you can do amazing things for God. That is true. But it’s a humility and a sacrifice.

as we all look at how am I gonna play my small role in God’s great big ginormous plan for the universe. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (17:36) Mm, that’s so good.

Because I mean, really, she just did simple things. She obeyed, right? She obeyed and she listened to the wisdom of adults around her. And then she asked people to fast and pray with her. She was their little sister, In a position, she asked for God’s help. And then she just did, things that had national implications for the Jewish nation.

Dannah Gresh (17:42) Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Shannon Popkin (18:02) And yet when you boil it down to what did she actually do, she was positioned to do something, it was just standing for what was right in a quiet sort of way, yeah?

Dannah Gresh (18:08) Hmm?

Yeah,

and that’s one of the things that we teach. Right now we’re on tour with the True Girl Crazy Hair Tour, which is our smaller one night event. And Esther’s kind of the featured story of that event because it’s called the Crazy Hair Tour because if you stand up for Jesus today, you’re gonna look a little crazy. People are gonna think you’re really different. And that is as it should be. The book of Philippians says that,

Shannon Popkin (18:28) Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Dannah Gresh (18:42) we should be so different that we shine like stars in the universe. So you look up at the night sky on a beautiful clear night, those stars are bright and they stand out on that dark background. That’s how we’re supposed to live. That’s a really scary thing for a fifth grader right now. When there’s so much confusion about gender, there’s so much, there’s very, you know, when we were in middle school, like,

Shannon Popkin (19:00) Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Dannah Gresh (19:09) It was a popular thing to be a Christian. It was the socially acceptable, politically correct thing to be a Christian. It’s not anymore. And so for these girls to stand courageously in their faith and to do what is right, even when it’s costly, they need the example of Esther in their life in a very big way.

Shannon Popkin (19:13) Hmm?

Yeah.

they do.

They do. Yeah, just to even have that purpose of, I’m gonna align myself with what God says is true. he’s gonna determine what is true in our new Teen Comparison Girl book. One of the chapters that we talked about was comparing femininity. Because in today’s age, that is…

Dannah Gresh (19:39) Hmm.

Yes, so good.

Shannon Popkin (19:55) that’s the battleground for truth right now is what does it mean to be a girl? And girls glance side to side and think, I’m not like that girl over there. Maybe I’m not a girl. And it is like one of the most foundational truths is I’m going to let God decide that I’m a girl, right? But look at how much bravery that takes in today’s world. And when we think about Esther, I didn’t realize until I read your

book that her name meant star. did not know that. And so, you know, you think of her as the shining star, but what is what’s being noticed by can’t remember his name. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey,

Dannah Gresh (20:21) Yeah. Yes.

Mordecai? the eunuch, the eunuch. Yes. Yes, he notices her gentle spirit. He notices her quiet

spirit. There’s a different, I mean, these were all gorgeous girls. This was, you know, the Miss USA contest of Sousa, right? They were all gorgeous, but there is something about her. She won their favor.

Shannon Popkin (20:49) Right.

Right.

you

Dannah Gresh (21:02) That wasn’t

because she was physically beautiful. That was because there was something inside. And you see her submitting all along. She submits to her uncle’s wisdom. She submits to hey, guys’ wisdom. She doesn’t plow into the king’s court and demand justice for her people. She hosts dinner.

Shannon Popkin (21:04) No.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Dannah Gresh (21:30) She says, let me have dinner for you. Come on over.

And she waits with humility for God’s timing to open his heart up and soften his heart. It’s a very different kind of feminine than we see applauded today. I mean, one of the top selling book series for girls age eight to 12 right now is a series called the Rebel Girls, Rebel Girls. And just the…

Shannon Popkin (21:47) Yeah, yeah.

Mm.

Dannah Gresh (21:59) title to tell you. And it’s a book that celebrates all the different feminists from the first wave of feminism to second wave of feminism to our third wave, which is very raunchy. And it celebrates the loud woman, the proud woman, not the woman who trusts in God, trusts in God’s timing. And so, yes, Esther was strong and courageous and brave and amazing. But when you look at how she was strong and brave and amazing, it was very feminine.

Shannon Popkin (22:09) Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm, that’s so good. Yeah, I read some statistic that 57 % of Gen Zers want to be an influencer. And the way that they want to have influence is that bold brash in your, know, well, I guess there is maybe a section of them who want to wear Laura Ingalls, what I call Laura Ingalls’ costumes in bake bread and I don’t know. But there’s, you know, there’s

Dannah Gresh (22:40) Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, for real.

Shannon Popkin (22:57) the world’s ideas of what a strong woman, an influencer type woman is. And then Esther stands in contrast with that

Dannah Gresh (23:08) And I also love that God uses a boy and a girl. And you mentioned boys, girls rule, boys drool. I can’t stand those t-shirts. And that’s how I reference it in the book is like, why does it have to be? Why does the strength of a woman have to be at the expense of a man? And here again, in the book of Esther, you see this beautiful leadership of a man, Mordecai.

Shannon Popkin (23:27) Yeah.

Dannah Gresh (23:35) leading Esther, but honoring her and appreciating the strength and the position that she has. So it doesn’t have to be at the expense of our strength as women. I’m so glad that I can vote, own property, and make more money than my husband. That’s great, right? But why do we have to rally against men? And we really do do that in every sector. I mean, just look at commercials.

Shannon Popkin (23:49) Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes. huh.

Dannah Gresh (24:02) there are always men are always the brunt of the jokes and women are always the savior. Start to look at the movies that are coming out now. Snow White is coming out. There’s this big scandal because people are like, well, Snow White isn’t like, she isn’t like a sweet fairy tale woman anymore. She’s gonna be the strong brash woman. And everyone’s like, no, no, we want the fairy tale. We want the Snow White. And it’s this big controversy in the news right now.

Shannon Popkin (24:06) too.

I know.

Hmm.

Dannah Gresh (24:31) Our bodies, our souls crave what God created, which is strength in men and gentleness and nurturing quality in females.

Shannon Popkin (24:41) Yeah. Oh, I love that. And I love that you’re guiding the girls in this study toward that. And I thought it was brilliant that you said, one of the ways that I live out the truth that girls are different and yet both are valuable is I don’t wear those t-shirts that say girls rule, boys drool. thought, OK, that is perfect. That is exactly what they need to hear. What are the other ways that I don’t? It’s like I don’t wear the t-shirt and I also don’t fill in the blank.

Dannah Gresh (25:02) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (25:10) Go ahead.

Dannah Gresh (25:11) Well, that’s actually such a good question because we try to guide them to that through the whole book. And we don’t like spell it out right, but we’re saying like, what kind of woman do you want to be? What kind of girl do you want to be? Do you want to be a girl like Esther who, you know, it’s so amazing to me in scripture, the strength that women are given.

Shannon Popkin (25:34) Yeah.

Dannah Gresh (25:34) And yet

God also says, have designed you to function differently. You’re equal in value. Yeah, you can be strong when I need you to be, but I want you to be nurturing. want you to be a counterpart and a helper to the strength of men in your life. And I think that’s a beautiful thing. And yeah, we try to help the girls figure that out in different ways.

How can they cooperate with their brother and support and encourage their brother? How can they say positive things about guys in their classroom or homeschool group? What kind of clothes do they wear? They’re the boys rule or girls rule boys rule short. They’re wearing clothing that doesn’t really start that fight. We don’t need to have that fight.

Shannon Popkin (26:07) Love it.

Yeah.

I love it. When I think about the overarching narrative of Esther’s story and how God is putting a girl, like the surprising surprise to me is he’s putting a girl up against an evil king and all of this ethnic racial tension, right? and so who’s he putting opposite that a young girl who’s going to host dinner like that is just very surprising. There’s a lot of contrast there.

But when you back up and look at, like you mentioned, the overarching meta narrative of the Bible, I hosted Nancy Guthrie and we were talking about her book, Even Better Than Eden. And she was talking, it was such a good book, but she’s talking about how, like all throughout the Bible, you see this serpent trying to wipe out the righteous line. And that goes back to what God said in Genesis 3.15, that,

Dannah Gresh (27:08) So good.

Yes.

Shannon Popkin (27:23) there would be tension between the seat of the woman and the seat of the serpent and his offspring and hers. And so then we see it all through the Bible. Like, why is the nation of Israel under so much attack, right? know, like Pharaoh wants to kill all the baby boys, right, in Egypt. And when Jesus was a baby, Herod wants to kill all the baby boys. they’re trying to wipe out this line. And then again, in Esther, this evil man is trying to wipe out, he wants to kill

Dannah Gresh (27:26) I’m sorry.

Yep.

Shannon Popkin (27:52) all like ethnic cleansing here. I mean, so there is a lot, like you said, God’s name isn’t mentioned in this story, and yet he’s behind, there’s this war going on behind this story. And we also don’t see this evil, serpent, he has purpose behind this too. And so how does that, like thinking of that big,

Dannah Gresh (27:53) Mm-hmm. Yep.

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (28:15) overarching purpose, how does that expand Esther’s purpose here?

Dannah Gresh (28:19) Well, this is really important and this is really big. And this is why we talked about purpose in this book, because the purpose of the seed of woman from Genesis three on was to bring forth the Messiah. And that was very clearly set forth. And I just read the most fascinating thing. This is a little rabbit trail, but I think it’s worth taking. I just read the most fascinating thing about, you know,

Shannon Popkin (28:36) Mm-hmm.

Dannah Gresh (28:49) In the Old Testament, God is declared a healer. I will heal all your diseases. And you don’t see any disease healed until Moses pulls out his leprous hand in the book of Exodus, except infertility. Infertility is the only sickness in scripture listed before that. And then after leprosy, we start to see other things.

Shannon Popkin (29:13) wow, interesting.

Dannah Gresh (29:18) That was strategy, that was Satan’s strategy. He knew the promise of the seed, right? And so

Shannon Popkin (29:19) Wow, yeah, it was. Yeah.

Dannah Gresh (29:24) none of that worked because God kept finding a way to bring forth the next generation of Israelites, His chosen people. And so then He goes to genocide. And one of the places we see that is in Esther. We see it very profoundly, Esther. It’s not the only place we see it, but we see it very profoundly in Esther. The intention is to wipe out everyone.

Shannon Popkin (29:30) Right.

Dannah Gresh (29:47) Here’s the other thing about that is because of the way Babylonian law and the laws of Susa worked at the time, the king had already signed it into law and it was an irrevocable decree. It couldn’t be changed that the people were going to be slaughtered. We even know the date. It was in the month of March. And instead, the king has favor for Esther that he

probably never imagined having and says, okay, I can’t override this rule, but I can let you defend yourselves. And so it is a pretty bloody book. We had to navigate through that for this age group and a few other things like eunuchs, but the Lord gave us lots. We had lots of wisdom. Yes. So we navigated through all of that and the

Shannon Popkin (30:26) Hmm.

Yeah, I imagine. Yeah, I saw that. For the purpose of this book, we need to, yeah.

Dannah Gresh (30:45) The day that was meant to be the day of the annihilation of the Jewish people is a celebration called Purim that is still celebrated to this day by the Jewish people. Now, it was a hopeless situation. I mean, we read it and we know how it ends. So we’re like, it all turns out great. Everybody’s happy. We all eat.

triangular shaped cookies and celebrate Purim. No, this was hopeless beyond hopeless. And so then, you know, when we’re talking to the girls about zooming out to see that the seed of the Israelite family is so critical to the coming of Jesus, right? That’s what we zoom out to see. Then we zoom in to see Esther’s bravery and her courage. And then we zero in.

Shannon Popkin (31:16) Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Dannah Gresh (31:41) and say, what does this all mean for us? Well, one of the things it means for us is this. There is no hopeless situation when God’s providence is in play. And you may have a sickness in your family. You may have a learning disability. You may have financial problems. I don’t know what makes you feel hopeless today. You may look at our government or our economy and say, I feel hopeless. Listen.

God’s providence is still playing in the background. It is the background music of every believer’s life as it was for Esther. And so then the girl can say, this is scary that my dad doesn’t have a job right now, or this is scary that my mom has cancer, but God is still at work in my life and they can zero in and have the kind of faith and courage that Esther did.

Shannon Popkin (32:12) Yeah. Yes. Yes. It totally is.

I love it. And you look at that providence, that protection of God providing a way through all of this and really what is preserved. So many people have lost their lives. It’s not like this is a safe world that we live in. So many people are affected by death and disease and well, we’re all affected by death. But what is preserved and how is it preserved? It’s a seed that’s preserved throughout the full narrative of the Bible.

Dannah Gresh (32:39) Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yes.

Shannon Popkin (33:03) the seed becomes a nation and it leads to one woman having a baby, and that is our salvation, that is our hope, that is our providence. so then when we zoom back in though to Esther, we see the providence of God playing out. And the climax of the story is her people are gonna be wiped out, like you said, I it is an awful, awful thing to encounter. And so,

Dannah Gresh (33:13) Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Shannon Popkin (33:33) What can we learn? This is a great evil that this girl is up against. how can we live like that’s true, Dannah, that we too have purpose?

Dannah Gresh (33:46) I think the key to it is going back to where we started, being in God’s Word. Otherwise, we don’t have a purpose playbook. know, without God’s Word and without us zooming out and saying, why do I exist? And what’s this whole world all about? What’s my life? What gives my life meaning?

without zooming out on the big meta-narrative of scripture and saying, I exist because God wanted companionship. Think about that. I exist because God wanted something to direct his love towards, someone to direct his love towards. That’s amazing thought right there, right? And then, as there’s a force of love, there’s a force of hate and evil and death.

Shannon Popkin (34:18) Mm-hmm, yep.

Yeah, yeah.

Dannah Gresh (34:37) and we are in the crosshairs of that battle until it is final, which we know how it ends. When you start to look at that, you start to look at everything in your life differently. You start to look at how you respond to the person putting your hair color on differently. You start to look at, I remember one time I saw a father picking his kids up at my

Shannon Popkin (34:40) Yeah.

Dannah Gresh (35:06) church, which was a Christian school on a vacation day, like a day off, a public holiday. And my spirit just said, what’s going on here? Like I went over to the father and I said, I’m so sorry. Like you didn’t get the memo, find out him and his wife are in this terrible divorce. That man’s soul was being fought for that day. And why did the Lord highlight him for me? Why did the Lord direct me to him? Because I’m playing a little teeny tiny part.

Shannon Popkin (35:26) Hmm.

Dannah Gresh (35:37) in the great big battle for that man’s soul as part of this big meta-narrative. And so I, I mean, I spoke with him, I prayed with him, I found out that, yeah, my wife didn’t tell me we’re in kind of an ugly divorce situation and he didn’t sound like he knew the Lord. But that day, my role, nobody ever saw that happen. Nobody ever, I mean, this is the first time I’ve ever really talked about it. It was decades ago, a couple of decades ago. That’s the role, like,

That moment had meaning now. I didn’t just run past a father that picked his kids up on the wrong day. That moment has meaning on the meta-narrative of God’s salvation and love for humanity.

Shannon Popkin (36:18) I love it. So it’s like knowing God personally is not just a it’s not just a vertical thing. It’s a horizontal thing. and that purpose extends to every girl, every girl.

Dannah Gresh (36:28) Mm-hmm,

Shannon Popkin (36:29) that will

Dannah Gresh (36:29) every girl.

Shannon Popkin (36:29) read this story and who lives in this broken fallen world. If she knows this God that she encounters in the Bible, she can live like it’s true that she too has this purpose that involves other people, other precious image bearers, right? Who need to know this great God too. And she like Esther can shine like a star, you know, and point others to God. So I just want to close with one more question for you personally, Dannah. How

Dannah Gresh (36:36) Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (36:58) you lived like this is true? You know we talked about you as a little girl at age eight and you too have an enemy who has come against you and tried to snuff out any flame that God would want to keep lit in you. So how have you lived like it’s true that you have purpose?

Dannah Gresh (37:04) Hmm.

Well, so reading the Bible reminds my heart, stirs my heart. I don’t know what happens, but when I study the book of Esther or when I study the book of Ephesians or when I read a proverb or a psalm, the Holy Spirit stirs within me. I don’t know if you’ve felt that where you just, can have, you can feel as dead as dead can be. Maybe it’s just because it’s early in the morning and you haven’t had your coffee yet. You open the word and the spirit starts to stir.

within you. And you can’t experience this outside of the presence of God’s Spirit, but you know that you know that you know these words that you’re reading in a book or a collection of books written by dozens of authors over thousands of years. You know these words are true. And can I just tell you one of the coolest things about Esther is that it is one of the few places on the planet that we can go to the exact

place where Esther stood. We have the ancient dig of the city of Susa, which just thrills my heart. You can go to, there’s a museum in Chicago and the Louvre in Paris, France that actually has artifacts that Esther walked past. They have the beams in the hall where Vashti was banished. They have those beams with these great sculptures holding them up.

Shannon Popkin (38:30) Wow.

My goodness.

Dannah Gresh (38:39) The Bible doesn’t need those artifacts to prove that it’s true because when I sit down to read it, God’s Spirit tells me it’s true in a way that no human ever could. And that fuels me to go out and live like Esther or like Mary or like Ruth or like Jesus.

Shannon Popkin (38:45) Hmm.

we can be told like in the Psalms or different places, we’re told that God is a great protector and provider. But I think stories show us, know, that’s storytellers want to show not tell, right? And so that’s I mean, having this particular story hidden in our hearts reminds us that our God is, you know, it can look as hopeless as can be.

Dannah Gresh (39:12) Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (39:22) and yet he is overseeing these details and ultimately, you know, that seed of the woman has conquered everything. And so we have so much hope. And so let’s be moms and grandmas and aunties who are purveyors of truth, you know, and who invite our girls to be just bravely in simple ways.

Dannah Gresh (39:30) Yes. Yes.

Hmm.

Shannon Popkin (39:43) Right? Just be obedient. Just be a girl. You know, just be a good friend. Be a light, be a star. And so, okay, Dannah, how can they find this awesome study, true girl study?

Dannah Gresh (39:46) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Well, you can probably buy it anywhere you like to buy books, but you could check it out at mytruegirl.com where you can find out all the other cool things that we have available for seven to 12 year old girls to get them into God’s word and to get them growing closer to their mom and closer to Jesus.

Shannon Popkin (40:13) it. So the title again is Esther Becoming a Girl of Purpose. It’s by Dannah Grash and the website is mytruegirl.com. that right? Mytruegirl.com. Okay. Well, thank you so much for leading us to the truth and inspiring us to be women of purpose who have influence. I love it.

Dannah Gresh (40:22) Mm-hmm. That’s right.

My

privilege. Thank you for having me today, Shannon.