Shannon Popkin (00:00) Well, we have Donna Amidon here with us today, and I’m so excited to introduce her to you. Donna is a wife, mom, speaker, and author from Virginia. She and her husband have two teens and a Malta poo. So she’s a dog person too, which I love. And Donna is a seminary grad and has served as a Bible teacher, worship leader, a pastor’s wife and more. And she is releasing her very first book, Tracing His Promise.

Understanding the Bigger Story of Jesus and What That Means for Us. And the publisher is Kriegel, who’s published several of my books now. So I’m just so thankful to have this book in my hands and to have you here with us. Donna, thanks for being with us.

Donna Amidon (00:43) Thank you, Shannon. It’s great to be here.

Shannon Popkin (00:45) So, you know, I was just chatting before we hit record and noticing we both have the books on God’s promises. So I, know, when I wrote this Bible study, Shaped by God’s Promises, I likened God stepping onto the scene in Genesis 12 with Abraham and Sarah to kind of a

proposal story. don’t think of it like a, you know, boy on one knee saying, will you, it’s more like God stepping onto the scene saying, I will, I will, I will, you know, he’s committing himself to the Israelites. And then I also compared the story that we’re going to talk about today in numbers as like,

this is where God is carrying his people over the threshold. he’s keeping his promises to them. He promised them this land and he’s carrying them into it. So I just wondered if you and I might have any like honeymoon stories, you know, like that. Did your husband carry you over the threshold?

Donna Amidon (01:46) Barely, I think.

Shannon Popkin (01:49) You’re teeny-tiny, so don’t think it was like he couldn’t…

Donna Amidon (01:51) Well, no, I think

he forgot and I think he forgot. I’m like, Hey, could you pick me up? It was late. It was late and I didn’t really care. It was funny. Right after we got married, our first stop was like Food Lion or something like some grocery store and we’re walking around buying snacks for the, honeymoon. thinking I’m married right now. It’s just such a weird feeling.

Shannon Popkin (01:58) yeah, yeah.

Hahaha

yeah. so then you

got to where you were staying and you said back up here, mister. Like this is a moment that I don’t want to let pass by me. I love that. But you said, can you carry me over? We didn’t do that. He didn’t carry me. But I do. I do have this memory of after our wedding, we went back to my parents’ house. You know, they were everybody was still at the.

Donna Amidon (02:19) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (02:39) at the church and we went back and I changed privately in my own bedroom and he changed in his own bedroom. And so I come out into the hallway with my suitcase, you know, ready to go on our honeymoon. And he comes from behind and he gives you this big hug and he says, so are you ready to go to Cape Cod? And he hadn’t told me where we were going. So it was just this really sweet, like I just have this memory of like being so excited.

just all this joy and anticipation and like, yeah, like why wouldn’t I ride off into the sunset with my handsome new groom, you know, and let’s go to Cape Cod. But okay, I just want to paint an imaginary scene in our minds, okay? What if we step off the plane in Cape Cod and I look around and I’m like, this is, this place is terrifying. I don’t feel safe here. I feel like, I mean, I,

I’d rather die than go on this honeymoon with you. I’m heading back and I’m going to find a different husband to take me there. Like that’s a little outlandish. And yet that’s sort of the, you know, that’s sort of what we’re going to get in this story. Right. Yeah.

Donna Amidon (03:46) Not good.

It is a

big shift in what God had wanted and their fear takes them a different direction for sure.

Shannon Popkin (04:01) Yeah, so set the scene for us here in numbers 13 through 14. What is the story that we’re gonna be looking at?

Donna Amidon (04:07) Sure, well, a lot has happened to the children of Israel. They have been delivered miraculously, mean miraculously from Egypt. They have watched God level the Egyptians through 10 plagues. They have escaped Passover. They went to Mount Sinai and received the 10 commandments. And if you remember that display of God’s greatness with the trumpet blast getting louder and louder and the earthquake and all the things.

they’re receiving manna and quail from heaven. I mean, they are just, on the front row seat of God’s power and the front row seat of God’s protection. And so now, as you said, they’re, they’ve had that promise in Genesis 12 and 15, and now they’re on their way to walk into that promise and they get at the precipice of the promised land they are about to enter in. And before they enter in, Moses appoints 12 spies to go into the land and to spy out the land and, see whether it’s.

if there are a lot of people there or if not, there are not a lot of people where it’s good or bad, or if the cities are fortified or not. And just to kind of see what they’re getting themselves into.

Shannon Popkin (05:09) Okay.

And you know, what’s interesting to me is

Look at the contrast between Abraham and Sarah. They walked a thousand miles and they not only entered this promised land, they not only obeyed, but they stayed. they came and they didn’t go back. And, and they had nothing to base this on. it was like, God was like a blind date to them.

They had no information about him. they, they had no history with him. They had nobody else who knew God telling them, yes, he is faithful. You can trust him. They just went off of very little information, but wisely so. Right. Responding to these grandiose promises. But in contrast, these people that we’re talking about in this story, they could fill a scrapbook with all of the experiences you just listed them out. You know, the manna and Mount Sinai and

I mean, the 10 plagues and the exodus from Egypt, like they have had experience after experience after experience of God’s faithfulness. And so I think we have to keep that in mind as we look at this at this story,

of. OK, so would you please read for us numbers 13, 27 through 33 to start out with? We’re going to kind of take this passage in little pieces.

and you’re reading from the ESV translation.

Donna Amidon (06:33) Yes, ESV.

Verse 27 says, they told him, we came to the land to which you sent us. It flows with milk and honey. And this is the fruit. So we’re listening to right now, the spies report after they had spied out the land and verse 28 continues. However, the people who dwell in the land are strong and the cities are fortified and very large. And besides,

We saw the descendants of Anak there. The Amalekites dwell in the land of the Najib, the Hittites, the Jebusites, and the Amorites dwell in the hill country, and the Canaanites dwell by the sea and along the Jordan. But Caleb quieted the people before Moses and said,

Shannon Popkin (07:14) Okay. Go ahead. Sorry.

Donna Amidon (07:18) through which we have gone to spy it out is a land that devours its inhabitants. And all the people that we saw in it are of great height. And there we saw the Nephilim, the sons of Anak who come from the Nephilim. And we seemed to ourselves like grasshoppers. And so we seemed to them.

Shannon Popkin (07:35) So what here is surprising?

Donna Amidon (07:39) Well, I’m just shocked by their fear. I mean, like you said, God has been with them. I don’t, I think what’s funny is they might’ve anticipated one thing. I think this is what we do. Like, okay, I’m going to set out and do this for God or God has this for me and it’s, and it’s going to go very smoothly and it’s going to be fun. I’m going to be happy every morning when I wake up, you know, but right. Exactly. Great example. But you, and the people weren’t there and, and the,

Shannon Popkin (07:58) Yeah, like writing a book, right, Dana?

Donna Amidon (08:07) the promised land with our party hats on saying, hey, welcome, congratulations, welcome to the promised land. No, there was going to be a fight. There was going to be a battle. And so I think this is something for us to think, you know, we are surprised when maybe we do set out to do something for God, that small group, that ladies Bible study, that book, that podcast, that teaching, whatever it is. I think we can walk in thinking, this is going to be easy, but

I think anytime, and you know this, that when we step out and do things for the Lord and for His Kingdom, we are on the front lines and we do have an enemy who is very real and he will resist in ways that we’re not expecting and we have to know that we are in a fight.

Shannon Popkin (08:51) Yeah, yeah, so it’s surprising. You know, I said this in the Abraham and Sarah book, the shape I got premises book. I wonder if when they walked a thousand miles to this land, God would show them like, did they expect an unoccupied land? Maybe they did, you know, and then and then they have this surprise. there are people who actually live here acting like they own the place. Well, those people are still here. And that’s who we’re listing out. Like these they know about these people. These are the Canaanites. These are the.

Donna Amidon (09:06) Maybe they did.

Shannon Popkin (09:19) descendants of Annick who are like the really tall people, right?

Donna Amidon (09:23) The giants, I mean, and you kind of see this downward spiral, the way they describe it. They talk about, first of all, the land, the people who dwell in the land are strong and the cities are fortified. And then they take that with what they’ve seen and then they interpret it through the lens of fear and worry and anxiety. And then they bring these conclusions that are not based on faith whatsoever, but on their own fear and their own inadequacy.

and they just blow it up in their mind to these people are big and strong and they devour their inhabitants. I mean, they don’t know that. just putting these filter, they’re looking at life through this filter of fear and victim. It’s just not a healthy thing for them to do as we will continue to see for sure.

Shannon Popkin (10:12) Yeah. And I mean, I see too that in verse 30, says, but Caleb quieted the people before Moses and said, let us go up at once and occupy it. We are well able. We’re not just able. We are well able to overcome it. And then then it says the men are arguing. No, we are not able. And then I noticed it says they so

You know, there are all these little connector words, but then, so it’s like they’re in response to the thing that has just come prior. So they brought to them a bad report of the land. So it’s almost like they’re taking the information and they’re twisting it I wondered if this is just a flat out lie. Them saying that part, yeah, a land that devours its inhabitants. What do you make, do you think they’re just flat out lying there or?

Donna Amidon (10:40) Yes.

Shannon Popkin (11:04) Are they just so overcome with fear they can’t see the truth? What do think?

Donna Amidon (11:08) I think they just can’t see the truth and they make up their own story. They make up a story in their head of how it’s going to conclude. And I think we can do the same thing if we’re prone to just seeing the worst. You your daughter or son’s coming back late and you’re like, they were in a car accident or, you know, it’s the worst possible thing that can happen. But that’s not really needed and it’s not healthy for us either to do that. But they are doing that for sure. What do you think? Do you think they see it?

Shannon Popkin (11:18) day.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah,

I don’t know, but either way, we’re told that they brought a bad report of the land. and I think you’re right. Oftentimes we can’t even see when we’re fabricating things. we can become so overcome with fear. Like we’re looking at something illogically. we, you know, your illustration reminds me of a time that my husband was driving up to this kind of remote camp with our daughter for a father.

father-daughter retreat and I said, okay, just text me when you got there. And they don’t text, they don’t call, they don’t text. And so I keep texting and calling and they’re not responding. And hours and hours go by and I at the point, I am like frantic because they’re not checking in and it’s remote and I’m picturing they’re in a ditch and someone needs to go rescue them. And how is anyone going to know? And so I called the camp.

Donna Amidon (12:14) no.

Shannon Popkin (12:29) bunch of times like in all this but I finally left a message and I’m like look my husband and my daughter are not replying. I’m all emotional you know and so my husband’s telling he’s like there’s an announcement at the end of the session which went super late and the guy is like is there a Ken Popkin here I think you need to call your wife

So it was all like in my head. I had turned it into this. And I mean, it’s if if we take a God out of this story, OK, they would be foolish to try to march into this land. Like these are tall people and they are fortified cities and they are,

ready for attack. And so without God and without these promises that are specific to this people, they would be foolish and they are like grasshoppers. But, and what I noticed was so interesting to me, Donna, when I read this passage this morning was in this chapter, in chapter 13, all the way up through 33, we hear no mention of God. Isn’t that interesting?

Donna Amidon (13:43) Really.

Shannon Popkin (13:44) Yeah, because I was highlighting any mentions of God and there are none. So even when Caleb talks in verse 30, he quiets the people and he says, let us go once and occupy it for we are well able. Well, he has a reason that we’re well, that that he believes they’re well able but he’s not talking about God there, And I mean, our narrators, whenever we, whenever there’s a direct quote,

Our narrator is putting the words in their mouth to build a storyline this is on purpose, that we’re at first not seeing God mentioned. And of course we have fear, right? Of course, without God left to our own little smallness, of course we’re like grasshoppers in the face of our enemies.

Donna Amidon (14:28) Yeah, I mean, that’s you can tell that’s how they’re looking. They have just kind of put God in the background and put their problems in front of them. think we can do that if we think of our problems as our hand and we just have this hand that just stays in front of our face forever and ever. And that’s all we can see. And that’s all we talk about. That’s all we think about. And God is out there somewhere, but we’re just so blinded by our hand, which represents our problems. And I kind of see that.

what’s happening here, the problem has become much, much bigger than their God, which is a true distortion and it is a lie. I know you have your list of lies which are so powerful as a resource and it’s just this lie that God’s not powerful and God isn’t with me. And another lie that I should pursue, not luxury, but comfort is so important and I shouldn’t take risks and I need to just kind of sit in my coziness. I think we see that there as well.

Shannon Popkin (15:02) I love that.

Yeah, well, we’re going to see that when they’re saying, let’s go back to where it was super comfortable. But I love that image of here’s my problems, right? So I can look at my problems right from my face, or I can look beyond those problems to the promises, right? And it’s one or the other. I can’t look at both at the same time. It’s sort of like a near-sighted and far-sighted.

Donna Amidon (15:42) Yes.

Shannon Popkin (15:48) perspective, right? And I am one who I need my glasses for both. Now I have, I used to have two sets of glasses. It’s to be like, take off one to look at the other. But yeah, it’s like, are you going to look at this problem that is staring you in the face or are you going to look beyond the problem to the promises? These are the people of God and they have been promised this land and they have a whole slew.

of examples in the past of how God is faithful to keep his promises. He’s done it over and over and over and over again. And yet they’re doubting. So, okay, let’s go on then to numbers 14, one through four and look at how the people, so we’re kind of looking at the debate between Caleb and Joshua. We don’t hear a quote from Joshua, but we’ve got 12 spies. Caleb and Joshua are saying, let’s go, we are well able. And the other 10 are like, no way.

We feel like grasshoppers in front of these giants. And now we’re going to hear how the rest of the people, like these are the 12 influencers and how are the people going to be influenced. Okay. So numbers 14, one through four.

Donna Amidon (16:52) Sure.

to Egypt, and they said to one another, let us choose a leader and go back to Egypt.

Shannon Popkin (17:29) So what’s surprising here?

Donna Amidon (17:30) Wow. Well, I am very intrigued isn’t the word, but I, we see this complaint, but I see this complaint digs a little deeper and he’s, they’re going to this place of attacking the character of God. They’re asking, why is God bringing us in to the land to kill us? And as if God were playing this cruel trick on them to deliver them into Egypt only to let them perish in the wilderness.

Shannon Popkin (17:55) Hmm.

Donna Amidon (17:57) Again, it’s just this distorted view of the goodness of God. And I think that’s something we can, if we’re not careful, fall into because that’s the deceit of the enemy, isn’t it? I mean, just that’s he did in Genesis 3, just twist the goodness of God, like as if God’s holding out on us, if God’s trying to keep something from us. And so, wow, I mean, we just see this heart that is just desperately, desperately wicked and so confused and so listening to

this negative narrative of defeat and to the point that it’s just attacking the character of God. It’s really sobering.

Shannon Popkin (18:34) The character of God is under attack here.

Donna Amidon (18:36) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (18:39) that’s where I’m looking at this passage where they’re saying, we’d rather go back. We’d rather go back to Egypt as like a bride, jilting the groom at the threshold of the honeymoon. Like taking one look at where he’s brought her and saying, I’d rather go back. I don’t feel safe here. In fact, I’d rather die. wish, you know, verse.

verse two says, would that we had died and I would rather die than go here with you. I mean, that’s pretty poignant, you know, it would have been better if we just died in this wilderness, you know, starved to death and not had the manna, not had the water from the rock. I’d rather die than be here with you. And then then question three, and I think this is a good question to just pause with, why is the Lord bringing us into this land if we stopped there?

If we stopped there, why is the Lord bringing them into the land? How would you answer that, Donna? Like in light of your whole book, tracing his promises, what’s the answer to that question?

Donna Amidon (19:38) Well, sure, the Lord is bringing them into the land because this was a land he promised to them in Genesis or promised to Abraham in Genesis 12 and 15. He said, I’m going to give you a land. I’m going to bless you, make your name great, multiply you. And so this was the land God had promised. We call it the promised land, not just to sound like a cute name, like this is literally what was promised to them. And so for them to say why, I mean, you just have to wonder, like, what do they even

thinking had they not been taught, had the elders not passed down the faithfulness, why is there so much doubt and confusion and just, but I think, isn’t that kind of what we do sometimes? We just get in these situations and we can’t even think rationally. And we do ask that question, like, why, why God are you doing this? Why is this so hard? Why is this marriage so hard right now? Why is, why, why is this child so hard to raise right now? The why question is very, a very common one.

Shannon Popkin (20:20) you

Donna Amidon (20:35) when we’re being honest with the Lord.

Shannon Popkin (20:36) Yeah.

Well, and it’s like, it’s like the fingers in front of the face again, you know, we’re looking at the problem, the problem, we’re looking at the hardship, and we can’t even see, A, his promises and B, his character, his faithfulness to keep his promises over now 500 years, right? And, and I mean, so the way they’re answering that question, why is the Lord bringing us into this land?

and

to fall by the sword? is he, did he bring us here to die? And so that our wives and our little ones will become prey? Like, did he bring us here to be like harsh toward us? You know, lose our wives, lose our babies? Wouldn’t it be better for us to go back to Egypt? And this is where you’re talking about comfort, you know? Like it would be better to go back to being slaves.

Donna Amidon (21:32) yeah, I mean, rewind to Exodus one and two when they are crying out for a deliverer. And in this chorus of prayer that just goes up, God deliver us from this oppression. And they want out so bad and they get out and God does it miraculously. now, I mean, imagine the grief that it would bring to the heart of the Lord to see this group of people say, hey, we like it. We want it the way it was.

Shannon Popkin (21:32) to… Go ahead.

Exactly. And we’re gonna see God’s response to them. I think this is one of the big surprises, and I’m kind of getting ahead of myself here. But the big surprise in this story.

Because if you look at all of God’s faithfulness, I love the book Gentle and Lowly by Dane Orland. talks about how God’s wrath is not pent up. His wrath is not just stored up and at the slightest pinprick, he erupts in anger. No, it’s his mercy that is stored up. He is abounding in mercy and long-suffering and steadfast love. And it takes a lot to provoke God.

there is a time that we cross the line though and what does it take to provoke God this assassination of his character that’s what he is not okay with he is not okay with us acting like there are no promises and there is no God and and if there is a God he is not good like that that’s where we cross the line and so yeah I think even right now in our conversation taking a pause

Donna Amidon (22:43) Exactly.

Shannon Popkin (23:02) And living like this story is true is saying, you know what? I need to be careful. I need to be careful about assassinating God’s character and turning him into someone that he is clearly not.

Donna Amidon (23:15) Absolutely. And again, I do think it’s the enemy’s deception to not that we’re justified by thinking that it’s all his fault. I mean, it’s certainly our fault and where we keep our minds. And so for us, it just takes that constant reminder of the goodness of God, because I think our natural bent is to question his goodness and his faithfulness when he is perfectly good and perfectly loving and his love is endless and his mercy, as you said, is just stored up there. What a beautiful picture.

going back to that hand in front of the face image, you know, what I have found that is so helpful in those moments when the problem just feels like it’s this close and this just overshadows everything else is worship. And that worship just washes away that doubt and that preoccupation with our problems. And we just see that He is so much bigger and so much greater than our problems. And as we worship, we won’t fall into that

trap of thinking he is unkind or unjust or unloving, but we will be reminded of his kindness and his faithfulness and his love for us. We don’t see them worshiping here. We see them just sitting in their doubt and their fear.

Shannon Popkin (24:26) Yeah, and what if one person like we hear Caleb in those prior verses talking about like we are well able but what if he had had stewarded that influence.

by inviting worship. mean, that’s what they did after they crossed the Red Sea, they worshiped, you know, and what if they would have rehearsed some of those stories of God’s faithfulness and, gone over and over how good God has been. mean, that sort of like, grasshopper syndrome is like the, the I’m so little and this problem is so big and that’s all I can see. But

Donna Amidon (24:59) Yes.

Shannon Popkin (25:02) Children of God syndrome is like, lift your eyes and worship like that is what sets us apart. we are not God’s people because we have done some great thing and, made some great promise to God. We are God’s people because we believe the promises he has made to us. Right. And so that’s what differentiates us from the rest of the world. We believe.

Donna Amidon (25:21) Beautiful, yeah.

Shannon Popkin (25:28) our God who, know, again, we’ve said it three times now, back in Genesis 12, God stepped onto the scene. He’s the one who initiated with Abraham and Sarah. They weren’t following God, they didn’t know him. And they were responsive, though, to God’s promises. They left everything. They went into they not only came to the promised land, but they stayed in the promised land.

And here God has been so faithful. He’s brought his people back. He’s now they are a nation. He’s kept so many promises and he’s kept them safe all through the wilderness. And he wants to bring them into this promised land. And they’ve got their grasshopper, you know, hands over their eyes. You know, they just feel so small. OK, so then let’s look at verses 14, verses eight through 12. Now Caleb is going to talk about the Lord.

Donna Amidon (26:17) Okay, so we’re at verse eight. This is Joshua and Caleb talking. And they say,

Then all the congregation said to stone them with stones. But the glory of the Lord appeared at the tent of meeting to all the people of Israel. And the Lord said to Moses, how long will this people despise me? And how long will they not believe in me in spite of all the signs that I have done among them? I will strike them with the pestilence and disinherit them. And I will make of you a nation greater and mightier than they.

Shannon Popkin (27:10) now I appreciate the fact that Joshua and Caleb are finally bringing the Lord into the picture, right? So does anything stand out in their words about God there?

Donna Amidon (27:20) So I mean so many things are standing out to me about this passage and something that I just had noticed the first time That I’m reading this right now with you is that they are let me find it. They are standing the glory of the Lord appears at the tent of meeting. So is that not their place of worship? I mean like the irony of that moment they have a place of worship as the as the backdrop and

yet they’re just not remembering and recalling the goodness of God. So,

Shannon Popkin (27:46) Yeah, that’s

where that’s where they gathered because that’s who they were. Right? This tent, it’s in the center, you know, their camp is all around it. But this is who they are. He’s in the center. He’s the one who defines them as a people. He’s the reason they’re not slaves anymore. Right. And so this would be an occasion, yes, for worship, but they’re picking up stones. Wow. Right.

Donna Amidon (27:50) Yes.

Yeah,

yes, is. It’s wow, there’s so much going on here. And it just, reminds me that it’s the same land, but it’s come to completely different perspectives, right? I think we can kind of experience that anything in life, right? I go to the amusement park. have bush gardens close by. My kids see the roller coaster. They they’re like, I can’t wait to get on. And I’m thinking, I can’t wait to find the park bench, you know, just two totally different perspectives, same thing. And so we have this same promised land, but yet.

how different we see the response of the 12 spies and now the entire congregation and Joshua and Caleb. And so the people were saying that God has left us, but Joshua and Caleb is, they’re saying God’s with us. And so we just see this, you the people are saying that this nation is going to kill us and Joshua and Caleb says, no, we can conquer them. And the people are saying, let’s go back to Egypt. And Joshua and Caleb are saying, no, we should.

We should move forward in faith. So it’s the same promised land, but it’s two different perspectives. And I think we can have that in our own lives. Like we see a problem and how are we going to respond to the problem? I think we have a choice. How are we going to look at these things and these obstacles and these giants that are before us? And it’s played out very clearly, especially at this moment in the narrative.

Shannon Popkin (29:27) So true.

Like look at Caleb’s words when he says to them, don’t fear.

the people or the land, they are bred for us. Like, it’s, it’s a completely different perspective on, wait, these people, they’re fortified, and they’re, they’re strong, and they have so much in this land, it’s flowing with milk and honey, you can look at it, like, they’re going to protect this, you know, with their lives. there are always two ways of looking at it. We can look at it from the grasshopper

perspective,

or we can look at it from the child of God perspective, like the family of God, like we are sons and daughters of Abraham, we walk by faith, we don’t walk as like we are a mighty people that keep our promises to God, we walk as we are grasshoppers, but we have a great God who keeps his promises to us. and so, but again, look at the influence.

that the the 10 spies have had on the whole nation, where Caleb and Joshua are saying, like their protection is removed from them. God is with us. They have no protection. Like, don’t look at the fortification of their cities. Don’t look at their, their soldiers and all of their training. mean, again, these are these are escaped slaves, you know, they don’t have a lot of they don’t have a background there. These aren’t soldiers. But but

Joshua and Caleb are saying, look at them, they have no protection because God is with us. It’s whoever God sides with, that’s going to win the battle. But in response to that, the whole nation, they want to stone these two who are calling to mind the

So this is where like the where the story is going to go from here is God is going to put some consequences in place. And these people who want to stone the two who are calling out God’s faithfulness, these people are going to die right here in this wilderness. They’re not going to go back to Egypt, but they’re also not going to go in the promised land. They’re going to stay stuck, right? They’re going to have their graves in this wilderness where they where they stand.

Donna Amidon (31:35) Yeah, I mean, and it’s so ironic because they were so concerned about their kids. Had God called them here for their kids and God, did you bring us here to die and let us perish by the hand of these enemies? And the irony is God says eventually,

in verse number 14, two through four. They said, if only we had died in Egypt or in this wilderness. And so they’re this place of despair. And, but yet God says that I am going to do with you what I have heard you say. And so he is the one who ends up letting them die in the wilderness. And ironically, it’s their children who end up living and taking the

Shannon Popkin (32:12) Yeah. Yeah.

Exactly.

man, look at that irony. when we doubt God and we’re so concerned that he’s not going to do for our kids what we had wanted, right? Or, you know, we’re so concerned that he’s put us in a tight position where what if he doesn’t make good on his premises? Well, we’re actually putting ourselves at risk and our children at risk with that mindset.

right? I mean, that’s the irony here. These people who they had their grasshopper syndrome, and they were so worried about their own safety, they’re gonna miss out on so much and their kids are gonna miss out on having parents. mean, imagine being the ones who do go into the promised land and thinking, gosh, I wish my mom and dad could have seen this. I wish they could have experienced you know, how faithful God has been their graves,

are

back in the wilderness and the story’s moving on without them. I just think, wow, I don’t want to be that for my family. I don’t want to be that generation. You know, the one who doesn’t call to mind God’s faithfulness. And I just want to bring one more verse into play here. It’s in Chapter 14.

I found this so striking when I was writing shape by God’s promises. It says verse 33. This is God giving the consequence. says your children will be shepherds in the wilderness for 40 years and bear the pencil penalty for your acts of unfaithfulness until your corpses lie scattered in the wilderness. Like that’s some pretty strong language there. But the word that stands out most to me is unfaithfulness. They’ll bear the penalty for your unfaithfulness and

And

some translations translate that as your infidelity, which is actually what keyed me into the whole imagery of this being like a crossing the threshold. God is a faithful bridegroom to his people and he is not okay with us acting like I’m afraid for my life. I’d rather die than be with you God. I’m going to pick somebody else to lead me elsewhere. He is not okay with that.

And so I want to live like it’s true that God is faithful. that is what helps me overcome the fears and the, and the grasshopper syndrome. I know I’m just coining a phrase here with this grasshopper thing, but

Donna Amidon (34:36) I love it.

Shannon Popkin (34:38) So what are some of the false narratives that we see playing out in this story?

Donna Amidon (34:42) Yeah, I mean, the one that comes to the top of my mind is that I should trust my feelings above everything else. They were feeling a certain way and their feelings weren’t corresponding with fact. They said, we can’t go up. They’re stronger. They devour these feelings, feelings, feelings. And again, the Grasshopper syndrome, it’s just this, God, woe is me kind of thing. I think we can all kind of get there, but

As I mentioned before, the worship that that hand can be right here, but worship washes that away and it re centers our focus off of self because that’s, think our root problem is we’re too me, me, me. it’s about, it’s about God. think of Rick Warren’s book, many, many years ago, the purpose driven life. And I think the first sentence is something like, it’s not about you. It’s just this mindset of, Hey, let me get my mind and my thought recentered and harnessed on truth.

and not my feelings on fact and not just my fears and let me walk into what God has for me. I think of so many people that may be shying away from taking that step in faith to what God, a dream that or a desire that God’s put in your heart to minister to other people. But yet we, we rehearse all of the what ifs and, and, and the failures and everything seems so big and out of reach and I can’t. And I mean, I’ve certainly felt that way. I’m sure you’ve felt that way too, but you just,

I think Andy Stanley says, he says, what do want your story to be? Like, what do you want your story to be that, well, I had this opportunity, but I’ve pulled back in fear and said, no, or do we want our story to be, wow, I had this opportunity that God gave me. And I said, wow, this is big, this is hard, but God, you’re with me and I can do this. And wow, what a difference we can make in blessing people if we just came together and walked in obedience to what God’s put before us.

Shannon Popkin (36:34) Yeah, I mean, if you think about a grasshopper and what they can see, what’s their vantage point, know, blades of grass look like a forest to them, right? Like if you’re looking at it like a grasshopper, you’re not going to get a lot of perspective, right? You’ve got to lift your eyes and look at who God is and what he has promised. what do you think are some of the

Donna Amidon (36:38) I

Shannon Popkin (36:57) things

in our lives though that would be like these giants in the land, know, these tall fortified, wealthy giants in the land. What would be the things that look too big to us?

Donna Amidon (37:10) Wow, I think just the things that are not going as we thought, as smoothly as we thought they would go,

whether it’s that marriage that just is kind of falling apart

it’s teaching that classroom, whether it’s leading that Bible study, and it just feels like I’m ready to back out and go back to something else. God never promised us easy life.

but he promised that he would always be with us. And in those times when we want to retract and fear, then that’s when we need to step forward in faith.

Shannon Popkin (37:42) you know, like divorce or a prodigal child or a disease or a financial crisis and burden, or I can magnify it out, like I think they’re doing here in this story. it’s war and it’s, widespread, it’s like economic disaster, or it’s, feeling oppressed as a Christian in a culture that is becoming increasingly against

what God’s Word stands for. we can really shrink back and feel overwhelmed and secure. We can feel like grasshoppers And yeah, I love that you keep calling us back to worship. I think that is

a way that we can live like the story is true. You know, that God sees us that he has good things in mind for us that he is the kind of God who wants to carry us over the threshold. He wants to keep his promises to us. He has good things in mind, even when they don’t look like good things in mind, right?

Donna Amidon (38:41) Right. And you have to wonder if they really knew the promises in them, if that was ingrained in them. Because I think if it might have been a little more ingrained in their DNA, maybe they wouldn’t have shrunk back in fear so much. I don’t know.

Shannon Popkin (38:52) Well,

it’s interesting you bring that up because here Moses is writing while they’re in the in the wilderness, right? He’s writing. mean, I picture him as he gets out his cuneiform tablets, which were like clay, and then they had little utensils that they would press into the clay. But I picture as he gets that all out and he’s writing Genesis, this book of origins, he’s got people digging graves.

behind him. I mean, a whole generation had to die there in the wilderness over 40 years, millions of people died. You know, I don’t know how many how many graves per and it talked about a pestilence, you know, the 10 spies died. And then I don’t know if this was just an ongoing thing where older people died. But this whole everybody over 20 years old died in this 40 years. So here’s the redeeming part.

is that I think what’s interesting is that the story still needs to be written. That this generation, those who were, you know, below 20 they are going to go in the promised land. They need to know the story, their origin story. And it’s not just the origin story of the world. It’s the origin story of God’s people. They need to know this story of how did they become God’s people? Well, it all started with God stepping onto the scene and God making promises to them.

and God being faithful over and over and over to keep his promises and in just a short period of time. mean that 40 years is going to go quickly and now they’re going to be 60 and under and they too will have the opportunity to go into this promised land. And I just had a conversation with Shadia Harishi I think is how you say your last name about the story of Joshua going into the promised land.

And I noticed in that story that he did send two spies, but it was completely over. He’s not going to do this whole, you know, giving them influence over the people thing. Like they, learned a lesson there, I think, I don’t know. But, again, the, the joy of the story is that it is being written regardless of how these people responded to God. The story stands, the plan is still in place. The promises still stand true, not because of

Donna Amidon (40:45) you

Shannon Popkin (41:09) them being faithful to God, but because he is faithful to them. And that should be our perspective is that he is a faithful. He’s like a faithful husband to a wife, you know, over decades. That’s our God. And are we going to live like that’s true?

Donna Amidon (41:24) Yeah, yeah, beautifully said. And I love the description of Caleb, right? I think that’s something that we can hold on to.

Shannon Popkin (41:31) Yeah, read

that last verse for us. Verse 24, Numbers 14, 24 about Caleb.

Donna Amidon (41:36) sure it says verse 24 but so is a note of contrast here but my servant Caleb because he has a different spirit and has followed me fully I will bring to the land in which he went and his distance and descendants excuse me shall possess it Wow I mean that idea of having a different spirit and following Christ fully I don’t know about you but that just that stirs something in me that

just a prayer that say, I want to be someone that when you look on my life, here is someone who follows you fully. really.

Shannon Popkin (42:12) Caleb lived like it’s true. That’s the name of this podcast. Caleb was somebody who lived like it’s true,

Even though everybody else was influenced by those 10, Caleb stood firm. And God saw that this is God speaking about Caleb, but my servant Caleb, what if God were to say, but my servant Donna, but my servant Shannon, but my servants, you know, listener filling your name into that blank, but my servant, Stacy or Carrie or

Lana, my servant has a different spirit and has followed me fully. What does that look like for you today listener? What does it look like to follow God fully and to believe that he is faithful to every one of his promises to you? You know, if you have not yet gotten my pray the promises guide, I would love for you to grab that because I think it’s really important that we know what God’s promises are.

But I also want for you to pick up a copy of Donna’s book, tracing his promise by Donna Amidon, understanding the big story of Jesus and what that means for us. what we just talked about was lesson 10 in this book, out of how many lessons and where can we find the book?

Donna Amidon (43:26) Sure. It’s 25 lessons, short lessons in the book. We start at Genesis, go to Malachi, and we trace the promise of Christ. We see that promise in Abraham. We see the first promise in Genesis 3.15, and we just walk that Old Testament story, and it’s just so rich, and it builds and builds and builds. And you can find it really anywhere books are sold. Amazon has it. Christian Book Distributor has it. Yeah, you know, nothing has changed me more than really understanding this.

promise of Christ in the Old Testament. So I would love for your listeners to pick it up and have that same experience as well.

Thank you Shannon for the invitation. love what you’re doing. I love the uniqueness of this podcast. Your listeners are truly blessed. So thank you. Continue, continue the good work.

 

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