Shannon Popkin (00:00) Harling and her husband live in Colorado. She is an author, a speaker, and she hosts the Connected Mom podcast. And her mission is to help women find hope, healing, and freedom, and life transformation through Jesus Christ. Becky’s books include The Extraordinary Power of Praise, Who Do You Say That I Am?

how to listen so people will talk and cultivating deeper connections. That’s the one that we’re gonna talk about today. So Becky Harling, welcome to Live Like It’s True.

Becky Harling (00:33) Hey Shannon, it’s great to be with you.

Shannon Popkin (00:36) am so privileged and honored to have you here with me. I was just saying before we hit record, I remember when you shared a message about the life of Esther and that for such a time as this little sticky statement in the middle of Esther and just how God used that powerfully in my life. That has to be over a decade ago, I think. I don’t even know how long it’s been.

Becky Harling (00:37) Ahem.

Or almost, yeah, I

think that was in 2015. almost exactly 10 years. That’s crazy, Shannon.

Shannon Popkin (01:04) Was it? Okay. Okay. Wow.

Yeah. So I’ve just been following you for a while. So grateful for your ministry and yeah, I’m excited to talk about this new book, Cultivating Deeper Connections. So this book we’re talking about what? What’s the heart behind this book? Yes.

Becky Harling (01:14) Thank you.

Loneliness. It’s,

yeah, so it’s cultivating deeper connections in a lonely world because loneliness is at an all-time high. And according to the surgeon general, we’re in an epidemic of loneliness. But scripture calls us to be connected deeply to God and deeply to other people. So we’re going to talk about that.

Shannon Popkin (01:41) Yeah.

Yeah, it’s an imperative and it almost feels impossible. So it’s like, you know, holding both of those in my two hands, like it’s imperative. I cannot do the Christian life on my own apart from other people, but connecting feels harder than ever before, doesn’t it? I mean, the surgeon general is aware. And I think it’s also interesting that he put a warning label

Becky Harling (02:08) Mm-hmm.

Yes, he is.

Shannon Popkin (02:17) on social media you see that recently?

Becky Harling (02:20) Yes,

I did. And it’s, it’s a warning label that people who spend more than, I think it’s like 20 minutes a day on social media are at greater risk for loneliness because if you’re

using social media to compare your life to the life of other people, you never seem to come out on top. So you always feel like, wow, there’s something wrong with me. And as a result, you feel more isolated from others.

Shannon Popkin (02:47) It’s so true. Yeah. My friend Lee Neenhuis and I just came out with a book, Comparison Girl for Teens this summer. mean, we were just feeling the significance of that warning from the surgeon general.

Becky Harling (02:53) Mmm.

totally.

Shannon Popkin (03:05) think

of yourself entering that space of social media. like the undertow. It’s just like it pulls you further and further out and you don’t even realize it until you are stuck.

Becky Harling (03:18) absolutely. Because, you know, we’ve gotten more sophisticated in our social media. So if you post a picture, you’re trying to get the best angle and the best lighting, and you’re not just posting pictures of real life. And so everybody looks at your pictures or your videos or your whatever, and they can think, her life is perfect.

and my shirt is not, you know?

Shannon Popkin (03:43) It’s so

true. It’s so true. Now, I’m not one who says we should just the baby out with the bathwater and get rid of all of it. I do think there’s a way that we can enter that space with a healthier mindset. And we’re going to talk about some of those things today. Like what can we do about comparison and how comparison way to this loneliness, How do you see those two connected, comparison and loneliness?

Becky Harling (03:48) Right.

Yes.

yeah.

You know, when we compare ourselves to another person, our relationship becomes a little bit of a competition and competition is not good for connection. And so if I’m competing with you, Shannon, I’m not going to feel close to you as close as I could. And same even within our marriages. If I’m competing with my husband,

Shannon Popkin (04:18) Mm-hmm.

Right. Mm-hmm.

Becky Harling (04:34) I’m not going to feel deeply connected to him because marriage isn’t a place for competition. comparing, it brings up things like envy. And envy is just not good for our souls.

Shannon Popkin (04:50) envy is the enemy’s way, right? three talks about you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts, this is not the wisdom that comes down from above. This is the wisdom that is of this world. It’s earthly, it’s unspiritual, and even demonic. Like this is the enemy’s mindset for us is envy.

Becky Harling (04:53) Uh-huh.

Right.

Yes, and the enemy

is always looking to divide us. He’s not looking to bring us together. And so envy is one of the greatest tools that he uses to do that.

Shannon Popkin (05:13) Mm-hmm. It’s so true.

just said that the Christian life is not possible without each other. And so Jesus knows that unity is the goal. Like we need each other. And so of course, what is the enemy going to come after? He’s going to want to divide us, right? He doesn’t want us to experience that unity. when I talked about comparison in both girl books, I used a measuring cup.

Becky Harling (05:24) Right.

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (05:45) you know, like the glass kind with the lines on the side. so if you, that glass cup is filled with all of the things that God has gifted you, it’s your wealth, your personality, your gifts, your beauty, your relationships, you want to do in the world is take your cup and put it next to somebody else’s, right? And always be looking at the lines and always measuring.

Becky Harling (05:46) Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (06:09) I think the interesting thing is God doesn’t bill our cups with equal amounts. with my kids, I always wanted to kind of make it, make sure that everybody had equal, you know, Christmas is coming up, I’m shopping and I don’t want one to feel like I’ve gifted them more than another. So I’m all about fairness and God doesn’t seem to be concerned about that. But

If we think of these differences from the world’s perspective, there’s two outcomes. either take those two measuring cups and we pull away because we feel superior. You know, this person’s so beneath me. I don’t want to be her friend.

pull away because she’s beneath me or we pull away because I’m beneath her and she makes me feel like I’m less than and I don’t like that. I don’t want to be around someone. I’d rather have friends who have less than their cup like I do. You know what I mean? And either way, look what we’re doing. We’re pulling away and we’re missing out on so much, you know,

Becky Harling (06:51) Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Yes, we really are.

Ahem.

Shannon Popkin (07:04) think

that is really a key part of this conversation is recognizing that we have an enemy who wants this. He wants us to be divided and he also wants us to feel this deep loneliness. So you started out this book, Cultivating Deeper Connections, talking about this time you came home from a ministry trip. I could so relate to that, Becky, when I was reading, like, just this deep loneliness. You’ve been surrounded by people.

Becky Harling (07:12) Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (07:33) You know, you’ve been with people constantly, but you can be lonely in a crowd, right?

Becky Harling (07:33) Yeah.

you totally can. And, you know, as I came home from that trip, you know, I had been traveling with my husband. So we had traveled to 65 countries in four years and just were speaking all over the place, which is great, except we were both exhausted. So we weren’t connecting well together.

Shannon Popkin (07:51) my goodness.

Becky Harling (08:01) You know, and I just remember coming home thinking, I feel really lonely. you know, Steve looked at me and was like, how in the world can you feel lonely? We’ve been with thousands of people, but loneliness is feeling disconnected from people. It’s not the absence of people. And so if I’m in a room with you, but I feel completely disconnected from you, I’m going to feel lonely because God has created our hearts to connect and to belong to each other. And so I needed to look at

our busyness and, you know, change some things. And I needed to create this space to connect more deeply with the people I love.

Shannon Popkin (08:39) Yeah, it’s this deeper connection I think that we’re longing for.

Becky Harling (08:42) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (08:44) you said in chapter five of your book, title is start sharing, stop comparing. So, talked about how comparison and envy add to our loneliness because they just drive us apart. When we’re comparing,

Becky Harling (08:50) Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (09:01) pulling away from each other. And so we’re going to look at a story in the Bible about two sisters. And if you picture they’re measuring cups, one of them had way more than the other in the cup. The Bible is aware of that and notices the differences between these two young girls, Rachel and Leah.

Becky Harling (09:19) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (09:21) backstory, let me just give a little brief backstory and I’ll let you fill in anything I miss here, Becky, but mean, their backstory is heartbreaking. These are two sisters and night, something happens and it is devastating to both of them and to the rest of their family history.

There’s a man, Jacob, who has come. He’s a distant relative. come from afar and he falls in love with beautiful Rachel. Rachel’s the younger sister. He does not fall in love with the older sister, Leah. She’s not the pretty one. So Jacob He agrees to work seven years so that he can have Rachel’s hand in marriage. Now this is like a

Becky Harling (09:51) Mm-hmm.

Yep.

Shannon Popkin (10:02) two-carat proposal in that day’s economy of marriage proposals. Like this is, he is working an exorbitant amount to have her his bride. And so he says that the seven years past like days, for Leah, I’m sure those seven years passed like centuries because seven years of her younger, beautiful sister man who’s working to have her, seven years of her

Becky Harling (10:07) Yes.

Yes.

Shannon Popkin (10:30) having no engagement, no prospects, know, all the wedding plans. And then Her dad does the unthinkable. He swaps out the bride without telling the groom. thinks that he, doesn’t it though? It does.

Becky Harling (10:31) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Which raises lots of questions, doesn’t it? You’re kind of

like, okay, how did Jacob not know this? mean, and you know, I don’t really have a great answer for that. I’ve read some Bible scholars that said maybe the bride kept her face covered or that. We really don’t know, but somehow Jacob didn’t realize, hey, this chick is not Rachel, it’s her sister. And so that’s where things get really messy. And then,

Shannon Popkin (11:08) Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Becky Harling (11:12) You know, Laban says, you know, I’m going to also give you, her finish her bridal week, which was like seven days. And then I’m going to give you Rachel and you’re going to work another seven years. And I mean, what could go wrong, right? A man with two wives. I’m being facetious. I mean, it’s a mess.

Shannon Popkin (11:27) Exactly. is, this is

for the dad, for, for Laban, the father of these two girls, this is a win-win because he’s got an unmarryable, for some reason the Bible says her eyes were weak. We don’t know what that means. Like maybe it means that I don’t think it’s like she can’t see very far. I think it’s like there’s something about her eyes that maybe she’s cross-eyed or her eyes were protruding in some way. don’t know, but something about her eyes makes her undesirable.

Rachel’s very desirable. so Laban, this is a win-win. I mean, just think of this from Leah’s perspective. Like think of her lying in that bed knowing that her groom thinks she is her sister. I mean, she gonna do? Excuse me, Leah here.

Becky Harling (12:05) Mm-hmm.

I know.

Shannon Popkin (12:18) what would the outcome of that be? he going to recoil and discuss? That’s not fun on your wedding night. And is he going to march her back to her dad? And then, you her dad’s going to be super irate, displeased. And then she stays quiet. So she just stays.

Becky Harling (12:25) Mm.

Well, and either

way, like the next day, that is exactly what Jacob does. He goes to the father-in-law and he’s irate. So Leah knows that, you so you feel like, you feel her pain of being unlovable.

Shannon Popkin (12:39) it is.

Yeah. Yeah.

she’s either tethered to a father who wants to get rid of her or tethered to a man who doesn’t love her. she stayed quiet. I just think that night must have been horrific for her. And then the sunlight hits and the storyteller says, behold, it was Leah. I mean, just the feeling of her heart sinking when her new groom recognizes

Becky Harling (12:58) Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (13:18) I’m

still the girl that nobody loves. I’m still the girl that nobody wants. I mean, so this is the moment that marks their family so let’s just look at one verse, then we’ll go on. I’ll just read this first one. Genesis 29, 31 says,

Becky Harling (13:21) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (13:34) When the Lord saw that Leah was not loved, he enabled her to conceive, but Rachel remained childless. So, Becky, what’s surprising about that verse there?

Becky Harling (13:45) You know, you think in our culture, you know, cool. So she got pregnant. But in this culture, that was a huge deal because a woman’s worth was tied to whether or not she could get pregnant. So all of a sudden, Leah feels I am worthwhile because I can give this man what he wants, which is a son.

And you know, I love the way the Lord has the tenderness towards Leah. And then I think, well, it wasn’t Rachel’s fault that she was beautiful, but the Lord made her womb closed because, you know, Jacob loved her. So there’s a lot of questions here, Shannon.

Shannon Popkin (14:18) Right.

Yeah, I just see this as one of those instances where it’s just so obvious that God puts more in one measuring cup and less in another, right? like this is, it’s directly from his hand. And for me, I’ve got to grapple with that. I have to grapple with, like I may have left less in my measuring cup.

And is directly from God’s hand. It’s not because God didn’t know or he didn’t care. Like this is what he’s given me. God opens the womb of one, the hated one, and he closes the womb of the other, the beautiful one. And both are from God’s hand. And

Becky Harling (15:07) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (15:07) enemy wants to use the very things from God’s hand to divide us, right? To cause hatred, to cause envy, to cause this division, yeah?

Becky Harling (15:18) Well, we, think particularly here in the United States, we feel as though in order to believe in the goodness of God, we have to understand. But God’s ways are higher than our ways. We may never understand this story, right? I mean, God’s ways don’t always make sense to us, and yet he calls us to trust.

Shannon Popkin (15:35) Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Becky Harling (15:46) that he

is good and loving. He loves both Leah and Rachel. We know that from the rest of scripture, but this does seem unfair from every angle you look at it. And yet we are left to see the mystery of the whole thing and not have it make sense because God is God and we are not. And I know that sounds like a simple answer and I don’t mean it that way, but I do think there’s this

tendency in our culture, Shannon, where if God’s ways don’t make sense to us, we put our human judgment on that. And it’s like, okay, that can’t be true about God because it doesn’t make sense in my thinking. But here it is. When God saw that Leah was unloved, he opened her womb. When God saw that Rachel was loved, he closed her womb. Does it make sense? Nope, sure doesn’t.

Shannon Popkin (16:29) Yeah, sure it is.

Yeah.

If we’re gonna be women who determine that we have to understand why God does something, why he gives more to one and less to another, if we’re gonna have to understand it all, then we’re gonna struggle with our God. Because he…

Becky Harling (17:00) Yeah. And we’re not

going to have the deep connection with God because deep connection with God really requires us to say, God, I don’t understand, but I choose to trust you. And I choose to lay down my thoughts in favor and surrender of yours. And that’s really the only path forward to a deep connection with God.

Shannon Popkin (17:04) Yeah.

So true.

can look at it in that sense of like, this doesn’t make sense and this logically doesn’t add up and I can’t accept a God like that. Or we can turn it and look at this from the perspective of, at the Lord saw, he saw this girl who was invisible to everybody else, invisible. know, everybody just looked right through her.

Becky Harling (17:40) Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (17:47) He saw her and he saw that she was not loved. He saw the plight and he had compassion on her and he gave her this gift. like we can look at it either way. It doesn’t, I’m sure from Rachel’s perspective, this didn’t make sense. but way, we’ve got did you call it? The battle of the bulge.

Becky Harling (17:59) Yeah.

the

bulge. Yeah, it turns into this whole pregnancy war, you know? And I think there’s a lot in this story though, Shanna, because I think of women who might be listening to us today who are struggling with infertility, you know, and then they’re invited to a baby shower, you know, for a friend. I, you know, because we’re

talking about this and because I’m kind of joking, calling it the battle of the bulge. I don’t, I don’t want your listeners to think that I’m minimizing that because for women who struggle with infertility, it’s horrible. I have prayed and cried over those women, you know, and yeah.

Shannon Popkin (18:44) Yeah.

It’s heartbreaking.

I don’t think there’s probably

any one of us who can say that infertility hasn’t overlapped with our life in some way. It’s a far reaching problem and it’s heartbreaking. I remember someone in a circle of friends who was struggling with infertility years ago. And I mean, it was so bad that we couldn’t talk about

Becky Harling (19:00) Yeah, yeah.

Yes.

Shannon Popkin (19:18) having a baby and she couldn’t handle being at a bridal shower. she was going through was so…

Becky Harling (19:19) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (19:25) horrific and heartbreaking. But the Bible calls us to rejoice with those who are rejoicing and to mourn with those who are mourned. And we need to do both. For the one who’s struggling with infertility, we need to mourn with her. We can’t dismiss that. We can’t minimize that.

Becky Harling (19:37) Yeah. You know,

I have a story actually in this book we’re talking about cultivating deeper connections in a lonely world of Ashley. Ashley gave her, that is her real name, and she gave me her permission and helped me write her story. So Ashley had a bunch of miscarriages and it was very isolating for her. She did have two children, but then she went through a stage or a

period of infertility and it was very isolating for her. And she felt like every time she had a miscarriage, she couldn’t say anything to anybody, you know? But then the Lord began to show her, no, like even there, you need your community. And so she used what was really, really hard to lean into her community. And then she was able to feel that deep connection. So I look at this story and I think, you know,

Shannon Popkin (20:18) Yes.

Becky Harling (20:33) And we don’t know what the culture was like back then. mean, did Rachel have friends? Did Leah have friends? We don’t know, but we know whether you feel unloved or whether you’re struggling with infertility, you need your sisters in Christ to come around you to help support you in that, you know, to help you stop comparing.

Shannon Popkin (20:53) Well,

it’s so true. And one thing we do know is they each had a sister, right? They had a sister who was in the same family unit and they were going through the same things. They were married to the same man. Now, we’re in no way condoning a polygamy or anything like that, right? No. But I mean, look at how this fertility issue divided two sisters. And what if they could have been an ally to each other? What if?

Becky Harling (21:00) Yeah? Yeah?

Holy moly, yeah, no.

Yep.

Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (21:23) I mean,

I think God put us together in families. I think so many of us are divided from our own literal sisters, right? From those in our own families. And so, you know, we have this epidemic of loneliness. You’ve talked about that. And what if we could, instead of competing,

Becky Harling (21:33) Yep.

Shannon Popkin (21:44) instead of comparing, instead of measuring against each other, what if we could rejoice with those who are rejoicing and mourn with those who are mourning and be the kind of sisters that God intended for us to be together. This deep connection. I mean, if you’re from the same family, you just have so much in common, right? And so I love that Ashley was able to share her pain. I think that’s a gateway to community. Isn’t that vulnerability?

Becky Harling (22:01) Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah,

absolutely. And you know, in, the whole realm of comparing, start cheering for other people. You know, I have a little granddaughter who is 12 and she runs track and she’s very good. But what impresses me most about her, her name is Sayla. And whenever she’s in a track meet and running,

Shannon Popkin (22:20) Exactly.

Becky Harling (22:35) she’ll finish her race and then she’s cheering for everybody else, not just from her school, but from the other schools. Like, go ahead, you can finish, you’re doing great, you know? And I think, what if we started cheering for each other, you know? What if when you become a New York Times bestseller, I look at you and I say, yay, Shannon, that is amazing that God has allowed that in your life rather than, well, why haven’t I become a New York Times bestseller?

Shannon Popkin (22:41) I love it. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Becky Harling (23:03) And I think it, when we cheer for each other, it quiets envy and it deepens our connection.

Shannon Popkin (23:13) Yeah, there was another author whose book came out the same time as mine, my first book, and my husband called me one day. He just had this habit of checking Amazon and where my book would rank, you know? don’t know what, yeah, and so

Becky Harling (23:28) yeah, husbands do that.

Shannon Popkin (23:31) calls me one day and he’s like, babe, your book is up to 6,000 on Amazon. Like who knew we would be cheering about 6,000, know, ranked 6,000 on Amazon. But I said, hey, look up, up my friend’s book. And so he looked it up and I think they had come out the same day. And so he looks up her book and he tells me how hers ranked. First he said, are you sure you wanna know? And I’m like, yeah, I can handle it.

Becky Harling (23:38) Yes.

Shannon Popkin (23:58) Well, it became this thing that we would do. I’d be like, okay, check hers and see how hers is doing. And sometimes hers would be ranked higher than mine and I’d feel so low. And sometimes hers would be ranked lower than mine and I’d feel so high. And it’s just like, I had to step away from that habit. I had to say like, this is not healthy. I want to cheer for her and I don’t want it to have anything to do with me. Like she…

Becky Harling (24:24) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (24:25) God has given her this message, this book, this opportunity to share it. And I just want to be her cheerleader. And I don’t want that to be hinged to connected to me in any way. I can cheer for her regardless of what’s happening in my life. And those friends who are willing to cheer for us, regardless of their own losses and their own trophies, isn’t that that does kind of build a community. means so much to me, doesn’t it to you, Becky?

Becky Harling (24:31) Yeah.

Yeah.

absolutely. And you know, Shannon, I think it begins when we decide in the core of our being, I’m going to worship the giver of the gifts and not the gifts themselves. So I’m going to worship God, not my children, whether I have them or I struggle with them. I’m going to worship

Shannon Popkin (25:07) Yeah.

Becky Harling (25:17) God, whether my books sell off the charts or if they don’t sell well, I’m going to worship God whether I have a beautiful house or I live in a shack. But we’ve got to get this straight because I think in our human spirit, there is this tendency to worship the gifts themselves rather than the giver of the gifts. And then it’s going to divide us. So if you want

Shannon Popkin (25:37) Mm, it’s so true.

Becky Harling (25:45) your loneliness healed, start by worshiping the giver of the gifts, first of all. Cultivate gratitude, thank him for everything and you’ll feel more connected to him. And then if you start cheering and celebrating the wins of your friends, your friendships are going to go deeper, you know, and so then you’re going to feel more connected.

Shannon Popkin (25:52) Yeah.

It’s so true.

It’s so true. And we actually see this in Leah’s story, don’t we? You know, as she has these, she’s having the babies, Rachel isn’t. And at first we see her doing exactly what you just said. She’s looking at these little babies and her eyes are not on God. Yeah. Yeah. Let me just read what she names the babies.

Becky Harling (26:10) Yeah.

Yes.

Now I will be happy.

Shannon Popkin (26:29) the first one she names a Reuben saying, it is because the Lord has seen my misery. Surely my husband will love me now. So she’s looking for love. She’s thinking this baby, she’s not looking at it as a gift from the Lord. Like this baby, I can cash this baby in and I can get something. I can get the love of my husband.

Becky Harling (26:47) Yes.

Shannon Popkin (26:49) The next one

Becky Harling (26:49) Yes.

Shannon Popkin (26:49) names him.

Becky Harling (26:50) Simeon,

Shannon Popkin (26:51) Simeon,

the Lord heard that I am not loved and he gave me this one too. So again, she’s still looking for love. She’s wanting to, I mean, I just picture her bringing this little baby before her husband saying, now will you love me? Now will you see me? Now do you hear me? The next one she calls him and says, now at last my husband will become attached to me. She’s, I mean, it’s just, it’s so sad.

Becky Harling (27:03) Yep, yep.

It is

Shannon Popkin (27:15) fourth

Becky Harling (27:15) sad.

Shannon Popkin (27:16) one, the fourth one, and this is the one that we have to keep our eye on because his name is Judah and he is the one that Jesus is going to come through the line of Judah and she says, this time I will praise the Lord. What’s amazing or surprising about that, Becky?

Becky Harling (27:21) Yes.

I know. I

just love that because nothing in her situation had changed as far as Jacob’s love until the day that Leah died and Rachel died. Rachel was the one that Jacob loved, but I love that Leah finally says, now I will praise the Lord. And that’s

Shannon Popkin (27:37) Right.

Becky Harling (27:52) basically Judah means praise and she gives praise to God. And like you said, it’s from the lion of Judah that the lion of Judah comes, Jesus Christ. And so I find so much hope in that, Shannon, because I think even when our situations don’t change or our circumstances don’t change, when we start praising God and worshiping him,

Shannon Popkin (28:03) Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Becky Harling (28:19) He deepens our connection to Him. And from there, we’re able to cultivate those deeper connections with other people. It flows out of that deep, deep connection and attachment to Jesus. And as we praise Him, He allows us to feel His presence more. You know, I can’t explain that other than the Holy Spirit does that in our lives. The more we praise Jesus, the more you’re going to feel His presence.

Shannon Popkin (28:47) It’s so freeing when we just accept the gift from the giver the Lord for that.

Shannon Popkin (28:55) Becky, think we’re going to have to pick this conversation up next time. I want our listeners to be to listen through the whole conversation. But will you tell us where people can find this new book, Cultivating Deeper Connections in a Lonely World?

Becky Harling (29:08) Yes, you can find it anywhere where Christian books are sold. You can certainly order it on Amazon or at MoodyPublishers.com. You can find it in Barnes and Nobles or any bookstore. So yes, you can find it pretty much anywhere.

Shannon Popkin (29:24) Thank you so much for being with us today.

Becky Harling (29:26) Yeah. Thank you for having me.