Have you ever thought to ask God for just a crumb? Have you ever considered that the smallest piece of God’s mercy is extravagantly more than what you need?
Join us on this episode of the Live Like It’s True podcast, where Shannon is joined by Erika VanHaitsma, from “The Context and Color of the Bible” podcast, to hear about how Jesus is astonished by the extravagant faith of a Canaanite woman, who is more than happy to beg, like a puppy, for a crumb-sized helping of what Jesus has to offer.
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Guest: Erika VanHaitsma
Bible Passage: The Faith of a Canaanite Woman – Matthew 15:21-28 NIV
Get your Free Resource: False Narrative Watchlist
Recommended Resources:
- Check out Erika’s new book, “Faith Walk; 50 Daily Devotionals” on Shannon’s Amazon Storefront HERE
- Jesus’s Proof that We’ll Get New Bodies in Heaven – Erika’s Previous Episode on Live Like It’s True
- The Context and Color of the Bible Podcast
Resound Media Network: www.ResoundMedia.cc
Music: Cade Popkin
Erika VanHaitsma
Connect with Erika:
Key Takeaways
- The Canaanite woman exemplifies desperate faith.
- Jesus’ silence can be a test of faith.
- Cultural context enriches our understanding of scripture.
- Faith can cross societal and cultural barriers.
- Humility is key in approaching God.
- Even a small amount of faith can yield great results.
- Prayer should be persistent and tenacious.
- The story encourages us to approach God boldly.
More Stand Alone Episodes:
Episode Chapters
00:00 Introduction and Background of Erica VanHaitsma
01:40 Dogs and the Canaanite Woman
03:36 Context and Setting of the Story
05:39 Reading Matthew 15:21-24
07:04 Surprising Aspects of the Woman’s Approach
09:47 Jesus’ Silence and the Disciples’ Annoyance
13:58 Jesus’ Response and the Woman’s Faith
17:11 The Promises to Israel and the Inclusion of the Nations
26:17 Approaching God with Humility and Faith
30:10 Living Like It’s True: Bringing Our Desires to God
32:39 Dispelling False Narratives About God
Episode Transcript
The following transcript is AI generated. Please excuse any errors or inconsistencies.
Read the Transcript
Shannon Popkin (00:00) Erica Van Heitzma is a dear friend of mine and joining us here today on the podcast. She is a happily married homeschooling mom of five from Michigan. She has a degree from Moody Bible Institute and a master’s in historical geography and archeology from Jerusalem University College. So I love talking to Erica. Her passion is to add color to the black and white pages of scripture by adding
Erika (00:06) She is a happily married high schooler from Michigan. She has a degree from the Moenigbauer Institute of Math and Mathematics in Historical Geography and Archaeology from Jerusalem University College. I love her.
Shannon Popkin (00:29) Context and culture and so you can you can listen to her podcast the color I’m sorry the context and color of the Bible podcast. I listen to it quite a bit I love your podcast Erica. I also want to mention. Yeah, I also want to mention your new book. It’s called Faith Walk 50 daily devotions and Erica just has such great insights. This is a beautiful little Devotional. I mean it won’t take you long to read one of them maybe like five minutes. I would think but
Erika (00:32) You can listen to her podcast, the color, I’m sorry, the content.
Thank you.
No.
Mm
Shannon Popkin (00:58) but it’s packed with good truth. And so well done, Erica. And yes, and welcome back. you you’ve been a guest before. Your other episode was Jesus’s proof that we’ll get new bodies in heaven. We were talking about the resurrection, the Easter story, the first fruits. I mean, I have referred back to that conversation so many times. You just bring so many great insights. So I really, really have loved.
Erika (01:01) Thank you. thank you.
Thank you.
Shannon Popkin (01:26) getting to know you over the years. You may not know friends, Erica used to serve as my ministry assistant for several years and did such a fabulous job. But you we just have the same kind of passions and similar gifting. this is gonna be a great conversation. So just give us a little update on, I don’t know, home life, like what’s going on with your family right now, Erica.
Erika (01:29) Yes.
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Loved it.
Yeah.
boy, well, my oldest two are working and so, and my oldest doesn’t drive yet. She’s so close, like just two months away, but so I’m driving every day to and from work for two kids. So, and then I have three littles that I’m trying to somehow have a fun summer with in the middle of driving around. So home life right now is just crazy busy. We’re excited actually for school to start because then things will calm down and I can just be home.
Shannon Popkin (01:57) Okay. wow.
Yeah,
yeah, yeah. I hear you. Yeah, it is taxing. Taxing is taxing. I remember those. But then you know what happens is when they get their license, then you’re not with them in the car anymore and you miss out on those great opportunities for conversation. So just trying to give you some encouragement. Enjoy it while it lasts, you know. Yeah, yeah, so.
Erika (02:15) and not have to drive three different places every day. So, yeah. It is, it really is.
That’s true. That’s true.
Right, right, that’s true. It’s coming faster than I think, so need to enjoy
it.
Shannon Popkin (02:44) Anyway, well, we’re going to talk about a really interesting story today from Matthew 15 and there are dogs mentioned in the story and I can’t remember. Do you guys have a dog, Erica?
Erika (02:57) No, we just got a cat. I love dogs. I would be both. I would be both, yes. Yes, yeah. No, I love dogs.
Shannon Popkin (02:59) you’re cat people. you? Okay, you would be both. That’s unusual, I think. Most cat people are cats only kind of people. okay, so we
are totally dog people, partly because my sister’s allergic to cats. So we can’t have cats. My husband would love to have a cat. But we just got a new puppy. We named him Mo.
Erika (03:15) yeah.
Aww.
Adorable.
Shannon Popkin (03:21) Yeah, I was just
letting him come on camera for a moment with Erica. But yeah, his name is Moses, Mozy Mo. We’ve had him just for two weeks. He’s so much fun. He’s a Shih Tzu puppy. And so I’m thinking about dogs during meals, Erica. Have you ever noticed what dogs do during meals? Have you ever noticed they all? yeah, they always end up under under your feet, right? They’re always there.
Erika (03:27) Hmm.
They sit right at your feet.
you
Shannon Popkin (03:46) And when my kids were little, sitting in their high chairs, they would, they would throw food overboard, right? To the puppy who was always just right there under, you know, the puppy knew wherever the baby was, the puppy knew that’s where I need to be because they’re either going to get sloppy or get generous, right? And be tossing little bites of food and that bothered me back then. And now, my husband, one of our dogs, Louie, we have two shitsies and one of them just is like attached.
Erika (03:51) No.
Yep. Yes. Yes. They do.
Mm -hmm.
Shannon Popkin (04:15) to my husband like nothing else. Like he can’t be, if my husband’s home, Louie is with him all the time. And so he always wants to get up on Ken’s lap during meal time. And so he’ll sit there and he’ll kind of rest his chin on the table and he just watches as everyone’s eating and he knows this food is not for him. And he just, just watching. He just wants to be near and watch it all. But you can just tell there’s like this longing, like he’s like salivating. And then every once in a while we’ll give him a.
Erika (04:41) Great!
Shannon Popkin (04:44) bite and know he gets to it.
Erika (04:45) Well, yeah. I would think that would be really
hard to have him right there and not give him anything.
Shannon Popkin (04:50) But
he knows, he knows that food is not for him. I mean, once in a while he’ll kind of turn his chin and go and we’ll go, no, no, no, you don’t. You know, he knows, he knows better. He knows his place. But yeah, so that’s kind of the picture we’re going to have in mind as we talk about this story about the faith of a Canaanite woman from Matthew 15. So Erica, any…
Erika (04:55) Right.
Bye.
Right.
Shannon Popkin (05:14) Context you want to give to this story before we dive in?
Erika (05:17) I think a couple things that we need to keep in mind is have you ever listened to how you pray? Because I think how we pray actually reveals a lot about our relationship with God. So that’s something as we dive into this passage, what does what she says and what she does reveal about her belief and her trust and her faith in God and in Jesus this man? And also,
Shannon Popkin (05:41) Okay. Yeah.
Erika (05:44) Mark seven actually gives a context. It has the same story and it tells us that Jesus and his disciples were trying to hide. There Jesus popularity was growing and the religious leaders were starting to really get upset because he’s shaken some things and Rome’s already breathing down their neck. They don’t need anything else happening on the political scene. So they’re going to start to try to
quash what he’s doing. so Jesus is not ready for this showdown yet. So he’s going to hide, to rest, to be with his disciples. And he’s in this Gentile community. But there are a few Jewish homes. So he stays at one of the Jewish homes in this Gentile community, but he’s surrounded by Gentiles. So hopefully he’s got less crowds, but he’s trying to hide. He’s trying to stay quiet. But there’s this Canaanite woman there. She’s a Gentile.
Shannon Popkin (06:24) Okay.
Okay.
Erika (06:37) and she’s a desperate mama. Imagine the mom whose child is sick and she’s been to every doctor. She’s been to every natural doctor. She’s been to everything. She’s taken her child to Mayo. She’s taken her child to Europe. She’s done everything she can and no one’s been able to help her child. And I think that’s…
Shannon Popkin (06:41) Desperate mom, for sure.
Erika (07:04) the emotion of this woman in Matthew 15. So.
Shannon Popkin (07:07) Mm -hmm. For sure. Yeah.
Yeah, that’s a really great setup. I didn’t realize that they probably would have been in a Jewish home. I wasn’t thinking that way. But of course, right, they can’t enter a Gentile home. I just wasn’t.
Erika (07:16) Yes, yep. Right. You can,
but there’s some stickiness with it. You have to be careful. So, and Jesus being a rabbi would have just stayed in a Jewish home with his disciples. Then you don’t have to worry about what’s going on in the home. Are there idols? Is there, I mean, sometimes they buried their dead in the floor of their house. And so you don’t really know if you enter a Gentile home or you’re walking on a grave. So.
Shannon Popkin (07:25) Okay, all right, okay.
okay, interesting. Yep, yeah, because they have to keep all of those things kosher, right? And why would there be a Jewish home in the Canaanite community?
Erika (07:45) and what type of food is being served.
Right. Right. Right.
They still would live in an intermix. There might be a traitor that’s going back and forth between the Jewish community and the Gentile community, and so it’s just easier to live here. could be my family’s lived here for generations and the Gentiles have moved in and slowly other Jewish people have left. It could be they’re trying to be a light to the nations and so they’re plopping down in the middle of a pagan city.
Shannon Popkin (08:13) okay, got it. Okay, interesting.
Okay,
huh, interesting.
Erica, can you read Matthew 15, 21 through 24 in the NIV translation?
Okay, so, I at first, well, okay, so what’s what’s surprising about this woman and the way that she approaches Jesus or what? Yeah, what do you find surprising?
Erika (09:11) things actually. First of all, she’s very desperate. mean, Jesus is trying to hide, stay quiet, and she’s either she’s pounding on the door of his house where he’s staying or she’s following him around town yelling at him. She’s kind of, and she’s a Gentile woman, so she’s throwing herself out there in a very audacious way, but she’s doing it respectfully because she calls him Lord.
which is a term my master. So she’s already acknowledging he’s somebody special. He has this high position and she calls him son of David, which is mind blowing. We don’t have time to get into what that means, but essentially she’s calling him king of Israel. So this Canaanite woman has some Jewish training to call him king.
of Israel, son of David. So she might be interacting with her Jewish neighbors. Maybe she’s gone to synagogue with them. She’s learned some things. She somehow recognizes that there’s something special about this rabbi, this teacher Jesus, and he’s king and he’s a master and he’s above her. And she’s gonna respectfully, but be pushy in his face.
Shannon Popkin (10:28) Okay.
Yeah. So she’s, you know, she’s there because her daughter is beyond sick, you know, like, like this is a desperate situation. And so that’s, that’s really behind. She’s not just a pushy woman. She’s got a reason, you know, she’s yeah, she’s a desperate woman. I think that’s different than a pushy woman, right? And so she’s, yeah, yeah. So she’s, she’s crossing all these barriers, like the gender barrier, like, you know, in Jewish communities, a woman wouldn’t
Erika (10:36) Yes. Yeah.
No! Yes! she’s desperate.
Yeah, it’s true. Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Shannon Popkin (10:58) approach a man, you know, and the rabbis, I think I read somewhere that like the rabbis wouldn’t even talk to their own family members in public. Is that true? Sure. Some of them. Yeah. So, so she’s crossing gender barriers, barriers, but she’s also, mean, she’s, if he’s in the home, she’s not supposed to be entering. She knows that like they know, but everybody knows that Jews, can’t go in their house. You can’t eat with them. You know, everybody knows what Jews are like, right? And so she’s
Erika (11:05) Depends on the rabbi. Yeah.
Yes, yes.
Shannon Popkin (11:26) to cross these barriers to get to Jesus, but not, you know, I like what you just said, not in a disrespectful way. It’s very honoring. Like she’s got perspective on him that the Jewish leaders do not, right? They’re not calling him son of David. They’re not linking because son of David, that links him to all the prophecies that were involved. David, like it was through David’s line that the Messiah would come. So in essence, is she calling him the Messiah?
Erika (11:33) Mm -hmm. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
She is. She’s calling him, yes, Messiah, King of Israel, you’re the one they’ve been waiting for. Now, does she know all the background to it?
Yeah, who knows, but she’s calling him the Messiah King. very, Messiah means anointed one, but it took on the idea of kingship. Because kings were anointed, so.
Shannon Popkin (12:11) Okay, yep.
Okay, got it. So, so is it, I’m back and forth on this. Like I was at first, I’m like, my word, it’s so surprising. He does not answer her a word, my translation says. Like the silence of Jesus. And so part of me is like recognizing like probably to the rest of the world, it looks like our God.
is silent to everyone. know, like all the way back to Genesis 12, it looks like God has chosen his favorites, know, poured out his love and his.
Erika (12:35) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Shannon Popkin (12:46) poured out his love and support and, given himself basically to Israel, to this Hebrew nation and the rest of the world is like, well, do you care about anybody? But these Israelis, like that, kind of feels like extreme favoritism, extreme, you know, like everybody else is just on the periphery and you know, you and me, we’re not Jews, Erica. So we belong on the periphery. And so
Erika (12:51) Right.
Yeah,
Shannon Popkin (13:12) But then on the other hand, I’m thinking maybe to the original readers, it makes a lot of sense that Jesus was silent, you know, when this woman comes to him. What do you think? Is this surprising or not surprising?
Erika (13:20) Mm -hmm. Right.
I think because of how we’ve seen Jesus already react, I think they would be a bit surprised. Definitely there would be some rabbis that you would not be surprised. There were some very arrogant, I they’re people. And there’s always going to be an arrogance and a pride. And so I think for some, you’d be like, yeah, that fits that one, that teacher that they’re not really talking and responding to that poor woman. But I think with Jesus,
He’s already shown such a love and a compassion for people that are hurting. I think his maybe even his disciples or the readers were a bit like, wow, he didn’t answer her. Because she acknowledges that she is a Gentile. She doesn’t demand his help. She says, I need mercy. She’s begging him for mercy. She’s acknowledging she can’t demand anything of this man because he isn’t her king.
Shannon Popkin (13:52) Yeah.
Erika (14:14) Although he’s master and above her, he’s king of Israel and she’s not a part of Israel. And so she’s begging for mercy and she’s acknowledging, my daughter is suffering terribly from demon possession. Does that mean she’s in pain? Does that mean it’s trying to kill her or get her to hurt others? Like we don’t know, but as a mom, we can identify when your child suffers, you suffer. And so the heartstrings are…
Shannon Popkin (14:19) Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Erika (14:41) massively pulled on this story, you have this desperate mama who is begging for mercy. And you would expect Jesus’ first response would be, course, yeah, of course I’ll help you. will just, yes, this poor child, you’ve called me king. I would love to honor that and help you. But he is silent and it is shocking. And I think even his disciples, cause they finally come along and they’re like, would you get rid of her?
Shannon Popkin (14:48) Yeah.
Yes.
Erika (15:08) You know, either she’s making a scene and they’re embarrassed or, just tell her to leave Jesus or give her what she wants. So she goes away. But either way, Jesus deal with this woman, we’ve had enough. And then he answers and his answer I think is, it’s directed towards them, but I think it’s in her hearing.
Shannon Popkin (15:08) huh.
Okay, hold on before we go to that. Okay, so I just wanted to talk about, shoot, now I lost my thought.
my goodness, Erica, I’m so sorry, hold on. I’m like, I feel comfortable enough with you to do this. Sorry.
Erika (15:41) that’s okay.
Shannon Popkin (15:46) yeah. Like, I think this demon possession, like, I’m glad that you kind of emphasized what that means. Like, this is something that is completely out of her control, right? Like, she’s powerless. Like, demons, like, you know, she doesn’t know how to get rid of this demon. And it’s very dangerous for her daughter. And this is, I was going to ask, do you think that this, I can’t remember, does this come before or after the story of the demoniac?
Erika (15:55) Yes, yes.
Shannon Popkin (16:12) where Jesus goes to a Gentile region and it’s as if he’s going with that demoniac man in mind. we wonder if the other disciples even got out of the boat, you know, he comes, we’re not even sure, right? They’re just like, stay away. But Jesus goes, and this is the only thing he does in the Decapolis on that trip. Yeah. Then he leaves. it’s like, almost like he makes this special trip for a demoniac. So did that come?
Erika (16:19) Right.
Right.
Right.
Then he leaves.
Great.
Now I’m trying, yes.
shoot. I can think of it but now I’m trying to pick where it is.
Shannon Popkin (16:44) it’s Luke eight, so.
Erika (16:47) But there’s another, it’s in Matthew too.
Shannon Popkin (16:49) it’s Mark 5, but Mark is not necessarily in order, right?
Erika (16:53) No, they think Luke, some of the people I read think Luke is the one that’s the most in order. It could be before, it could be after. But either way, we should know he can handle this. I mean, he’s already done enough, at least in Matthew, he can handle this.
Shannon Popkin (17:00) Yeah, okay, doesn’t matter.
Right. Yeah.
Well, and he’s, he, he not only can handle it, but he’s shown compassion to Gentiles, to women, to demon possessed people. Like this is a very out of the ordinary response. And yeah. And then the disciples are like, deal with this. She’s, they’re almost like, it sounds like they’re annoyed. Like, come on, you know, they’re like, they’re like the, yes.
Erika (17:14) Right. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes.
Yes, yes, this is embarrassing. She’s making a
scene. Yes.
Shannon Popkin (17:33) Come on, right? It’s like,
you know, I’m picturing my kids at the table saying, mom, make the, make the puppy go away. He’s bugging me. Right? Like it’s, this is like, I want to eat my food, you know, cause Jesus is going to give us a parable here in a minute. But then, what is Jesus? What’s interesting about Jesus’s response? And you say, you say Jesus is responding to the disciples, but in her ear shot, probably.
Erika (17:41) Yes, yes, yes, yes, yeah.
Yeah, because
she responds a bit to what he says.
Shannon Popkin (18:03) Yeah, so it’s almost like he’s not responding to her. I was wondering about that because it, you know.
Erika (18:05) Right, right. Yeah, I
think she’s here. I think she’s in the vicinity. And he’s speaking like maybe a stage whisper, you know, so I’m talking to you guys, but I want everybody to hear and he says, I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel. So he’s saying to her, you’re right. I’m king of Israel. That’s who I was sent to as the Messiah. I am sent right now just to call the lost
Shannon Popkin (18:15) Okay.
Erika (18:31) children of Abraham back to repentance. I’m not sent to the Gentiles yet. You guys are not included yet. And so he kind of puts up a barrier and says, in a way he says, no, I’m not going there yet. I’m not sent to you just yet. But the story continues.
Shannon Popkin (18:45) Yeah.
Yeah, so Jesus is sent by God for Israel. Like that is the primary reason that he was sent. And he’s sent to Israel because all of the promises belong to Israel. All of the prophecies belong to Israel. And Jesus is the fulfillment all of these. And so like without those promises and those prophecies, like the story is incomplete. And this is an overarching unfolding story. And so that’s, think, like I want us to just see like
Erika (19:03) Yeah.
Right. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Shannon Popkin (19:19) That’s why Jesus is sent to Israel. really, if we go back to Genesis 12, I know you just did my Shaped by God’s Promises Bible study, or Erica. Yeah, thank you. Her name was Sarah, your name is Erica. Thank you, you were so kind to share some kind words about that. But even in Genesis 12, we see God mentioning the rest of the nations. He’s making these promises to this one family.
Erika (19:21) Yes, yes.
So good. Yes. Erica. No problem. Yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah.
It’s so good.
Mm -hmm. Yes. Yes.
Shannon Popkin (19:49) I’m going to make of you a great nation, but through you, I’m going to bless all the rest of the nation. So from the beginning, it has been God’s intention. Like he had us in mind, right? When he made these promises to Abraham, but it seems exclusive. Like the word only stood out to me. Jesus answered, I was sent only to the last sheep of Israel. Like it does sound pretty exclusive. And yet it’s, it’s because of the promises and the prophecies that Jesus has to go to Israel.
Erika (19:49) Yes.
Yes. Yes.
Mm Right.
Yeah.
Shannon Popkin (20:18) Okay, so then this woman who overhears Jesus saying this, how does she respond? Can you read 25 through 28 now?
Erika (20:27) Yes. He answered, I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel. The woman came and knelt before him. Lord, help me, she said. He replied, it is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to their dogs. Yes, Lord, she said. But even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table. Then Jesus answered, woman, you have great faith. Your request is granted. And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
Shannon Popkin (20:55) So good. All right. So she responds like, is there anything surprising about her response to Jesus saying he’s only sent to Israel?
Erika (21:04) Yeah, she agrees with him. She, and I think Matthew in verse 25 is a bit probably understating things when it says she came and knelt before him. Cause I wonder if she like throws herself at his feet. Like she will not take no for an answer. She will not let him get off without acknowledging her talking, interacting directly to her. And so I think she,
is right there clinging to his feet, but she again calls him Lord. Like you still see that desperation, but the humility still, Lord help me, I need you. And he puts up another roadblock. He puts up another barrier and says, it’s not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to their dogs. And honestly, that’s really harsh. It’s a very harsh.
Shannon Popkin (21:38) Yeah.
It sounds like, wait, I’m the dog, right? Come
on. Yeah, I’m the dog begging at the table, right?
Erika (22:00) Right.
Right, and he’s saying, I’m sent to Israel. I’m here to feed Israel. I’m not, you Gentiles are not invited in yet. So no, I’m not here for you yet.
Shannon Popkin (22:16) But I see also there’s like, there’s an order. It’s like, know how we feed our kids first, right? You feed the kids first. He’s saying the puppy’s gonna get a treat, And by the way, when he uses the word dog, it’s a little dog. like he’s talking about the puppies. It’s not quite as bad. I mean, you still don’t want to be called.
the puppy of the story. Like you’d rather be the child at the table. But they would call the Gentiles dogs, know, in a very derogatory way. Like they’re unclean, they’re dogs. not kind way to refer to these other people. However, still calling her like you’re the puppy in the story. Like the kids get the food and yet she’s
Erika (22:38) Right.
through the puppy from the story. The kids get the food and yet she’s…
Shannon Popkin (22:57) she’s gonna
respond. Well, do we want to go there? Anything else you want to say about that?
Erika (23:03) I think you’re right. He’s calling her this.
He is trying to set her up and she’s gonna reveal a depth of faith and a humility that is gonna blow his mind in one sense. It’s gonna amaze him. And so I think he’s setting her up and it comes across as harsh, but his test, she passes with flying colors.
Shannon Popkin (23:27) Right? Yeah, he is testing her here because I think many in this situation would be like, how dare you talk to me? How dare you call me the dog? Right? Where in essence, she’s like, I’ll be the dog, you know, but even the dog, even the dog gets some crumbs. There’s plenty on that table. Like I need something right now from you. Right?
Erika (23:28) And that’s the whole point.
Right.
Right, right, right.
Right, right, right. Yes, yes, yeah. She,
mean, she just, this woman amazes me, Shannon, because she’s like, yes, Lord, you’re right. I don’t deserve anything from you because you’re the king of Israel and you’ve been sent to Israel and I’m a Gentile. So I don’t deserve anything, but all I’m asking for is a crown.
Shannon Popkin (24:06) Yeah.
Erika (24:06) And
I know you can give me a crumb because a crumb from you, Jesus, is more than what I need. And you have way more than that to give. I mean, that that blows my mind that she can be that humble and say, yes, you are right. But secondly, all I need is a crumb. Like, have you ever thought to ask God for just a crumb? Like, God, I just need a crumb of your patience, a crumb of your spirit right here. I need a crumb of your wisdom, because I know the amount of
power behind you is infinite. It is like mountain size and all I need is a pebble from your mountain and you won’t run out even when you give me that pebble because it’s infinite. It just keeps going and so she acknowledges she just needs the tiniest bit of attention from this man and it will heal her daughter. That is an amazing amount of faith.
Shannon Popkin (25:00) It is. That’s amazing. I’m thinking also of like the people who say, Like it’s not fair that people who live in another country and haven’t had the gospel there that they would die in their sin. Like that’s just not fair. I can’t believe in a God who, know, who it’s like he doesn’t give fair equal opportunity, right? Is basically what they’re saying. but this woman does not adopt that kind of philosophy, right? She’s
Erika (25:20) Right, right.
No.
Shannon Popkin (25:27) You know, like it’s true. God did choose Israel and she is on the outside and it’s true. The gospel has come to certain parts of the world and other parts are not, you know, they’re not exposed to the light in the same way. And we can respond in a lack of faith saying, God, I can’t trust a God like that. Or we can respond with extravagant faith like this woman who’s like, yeah, none of us deserve.
Erika (25:48) Yes.
Yes.
Right. Right. Right. Right.
Shannon Popkin (25:54) a savior. None of us deserve the light to come into our community. None of us, you know,
but look at, I know that that you, you know, favor Israel. I know that I see that, but you you, you have so much mercy. Surely it would spill over your table into the darkest corners, like to the little puppies who are desperate. And yeah, it’s beautiful. It’s very beautiful faith. and I also love Erica too, that
Erika (26:10) Right.
Right. Right.
to that
Shannon Popkin (26:21) when she says, yeah, even the dogs
Erika (26:21) when she said it’s getting…
Shannon Popkin (26:23) eat crumbs that fall from their table. She’s like responding in his parable. He set up a parable. You know, he doesn’t call her a dog. He doesn’t say, you, you Gentile dogs. And, know, he uses this little parable and she enters the story, you know, so she is willing to go with him on this. Like she’s not in any way countering. She’s, she’s just in alignment with what he’s just shared and enters into the parable. just, I love
Erika (26:28) Mm -hmm. No. No.
she enters the
Mm -hmm.
Right.
Shannon Popkin (26:50) that so much. She’s pretty sharp, she’s pretty good, she’s pretty quick on her feet, she’s pretty cool lady I think, you know.
Erika (26:51) down. She is.
She’s one I’m excited to meet in eternity and be like, so tell me about this. But one commentary I read said this is the only person to win an argument with Jesus. I mean, that’s how amazing her response is. You’re right, She are totally right. She enters in and she says, and she but she bests him.
Shannon Popkin (26:59) I know. Yes, I know.
wow!
I’ll be the dog.
Yeah, I’ll be the dog. Yeah.
Erika (27:19) I’ll be the dog. Just give me the crumb. I will be anything. And
I think, I think not only are we amazed, I think Jesus was amazed at her faith. And I love the idea that what amazes Jesus about people is not their clothing, their jobs, their money, how they look. But what amazes Jesus about people is their faith and either how much they have or their lack of it.
Shannon Popkin (27:29) Yeah, yeah.
Erika (27:46) And I just think he probably got the biggest smile on his face. And he was like, disciples, come here. Did you hear what she said? Did you hear this woman? That’s amazing. You won. You’re right. Your daughter’s healed. And I think it just thrilled his soul to say yes to this woman and see that face that got pulled out of her because of those roadblocks.
Shannon Popkin (27:49) Yeah.
huh. Yeah. Yup. Yup.
Yeah, I think so.
Erika (28:10) And I think we will meet this woman and her daughter in eternity. There’s no doubt in my mind after this, but I think Jesus just loved it.
Shannon Popkin (28:15) That’s so great. That’s so great. Yeah,
I agree. you know, I was looking at the part with the disciples, like that isn’t really necessary to the story. I’m always looking for those parts that they’re not, we don’t need that part. And so why is it there, you know? And so them saying, you know, send her away. She’s crying after us. And I wonder if he’s pointing out something in them.
Erika (28:28) Right.
Shannon Popkin (28:38) You know, he like they’re part of this story. They don’t need to be because it’s like the woman with the demon possessed daughter, you know, needing the crumb. They’re not they’re they’re irrelevant. And yet I wonder if the way they were looking at her, you Jesus wanted to correct like maybe he even noticed before that they were like rolling their eyes. Here’s this woman. Right. And I’m getting this thought from from Kenneth Bailey. This isn’t original with me. But he does. He says, you know, maybe.
Erika (28:44) Right.
Maybe.
Right. Hmm.
Shannon Popkin (29:05) Jesus is pinpointing or he’s kind of showing them what it looks like if you play this prejudic Like, you know, we send people away who aren’t who don’t fit our ministry description, you know they’re not they’re not included and so and then what that and he his silence is like, okay showing deference Deferent she Asian to the disciples and then and then like going like yeah I’m only for the house of Israel like here. Here you go. This is and then
Erika (29:12) Right, right.
Right.
Shannon Popkin (29:33) to see her fall at Jesus’ feet. Like, is this really what you want? For people to just be left in their desperation when I’m here and I do have a crumb to give them, like, is this really what you want? I, you know, so I think that’s a challenge for me, like, to put people in parameters of, who Jesus came for, who is going to receive him, who might, you know,
Erika (29:41) Right. Yeah.
Yes, yeah, yeah
Shannon Popkin (29:59) Like I think we do have to deal with our own prejudice. And I’m not just talking about racial prejudice, but just like, people’s past, people’s, this type of family, how they live, how they vote, how they, you know, what clothes they wear, whatever it is, right? I love that you said Jesus is impressed with her faith. He doesn’t have the same way of evaluating or judging people that we do. And so, yeah.
and the disciples, they’re being discipled in this moment, right? They are.
Erika (30:29) They are. That’s great point, Shannon. And then he comes back with, the end, he calls her woman. He doesn’t continue dog or pagan. He calls her woman. He sees her and acknowledges her. And you’re right.
Shannon Popkin (30:39) Yeah. woman, he says.
Erika (30:43) think that’s a great point. He is showing the disciples, she is still made in the image of God. And there is an amount of respect that this woman deserves being made in the image of God, like any person on the planet.
Shannon Popkin (30:48) Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it’s so true.
And I love to what Tim Keller said that he sees in her, there’s no superiority complex. You know, she doesn’t say, how dare you call me a dog? But there’s also no inferiority complex, right? She is not like, yes, woe is me. How dare I ever come and ask, you know, like she’s not afraid to assert herself.
Erika (31:06) No.
Nope.
That’s very true. Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Shannon Popkin (31:23) and get that crumb that she needs.
And so this is the appropriate way. And you started our conversation talking about prayer. So how do we live like it’s true that we can pray to a God and we don’t come to him with a superiority complex, nor do we come to him with an inferiority complex? How do we live like it’s true that we can approach God for the crumb?
Erika (31:30) Mm -hmm.
Right, Yeah,
I’m looking for my notes. There is a, I think one, a couple things that you see in this woman is she believes, first of all, that Jesus is able to help her, but she also believes he’s willing to help her.
And so even when he throws those roadblocks up, she’s not stopping until she gets an answer directly from him.
Shannon Popkin (32:03) Yeah.
willing,
willing and able.
Erika (32:15) And because I have prayed many times, Shannon, and I’ve been like, I know God, can do this. I just don’t know if you want to. And how often have I struggled with, I know God can, but will he answer me somehow, some way, or form? I think this woman is so, she is tenacious and she’s clinging to him that even in her
Shannon Popkin (32:28) Yeah.
Erika (32:40) prayer, even though like the door of heaven slam shut in her face. She doesn’t stop pounding on it. Right, right. Yes. Yes. Yes. But she believes she knows, I think this woman knew that the God of Israel was good. Ultimately, a good
Shannon Popkin (32:43) Yeah, yeah. There’s silence to her at first. And sometimes we feel that. We feel like heaven, like there is a door slammed and there is silence on the other end of our prayers.
Erika (33:03) God and so she could sit there and like pound on the door not afraid he was going to open it up and smite her but that he was going to listen. He cared and I think if I really could live like the story was true I think my prayers would be more like that. I would be willing to pound on the door of heaven trusting that God is
Good, not afraid that he’s gonna get angry with me, that he has something better to do than deal with me, that my things are not important enough, that he doesn’t really care, doesn’t really listen. Like, no, even when heaven itself slams shut in my face, I’m still there pounding because I know behind that door is a good God that I can trust.
Shannon Popkin (33:48) Amen. Yeah,
I think often we go after these false narratives of the world. And I think you just dispelled several of those right in a row. Like one of them would be that God doesn’t hear me. Another would be that he doesn’t care. He doesn’t want to give me good things. Another would be he can’t, right? He’s impotent. There’s nothing he can do. He doesn’t see me. He doesn’t care. He can’t help. He doesn’t want to. Like all of the above.
Erika (34:06) Yeah. Right. Right.
Right.
Shannon Popkin (34:17) can be this
Erika (34:17) Right.
Shannon Popkin (34:18) false narrative and this woman has the faith to set all of those aside and keep pounding on the door, right? And this tenacity. So living like it’s true is having this tenacity to approach God without an inferiority complex, but also without a superiority complex, you know, because he’s the king. She called him son of David, like he’s the king, he’s the Lord, he gets to decide. And so we can’t come to him with these prayers making demands. We’re the ones.
Erika (34:24) Right, right.
Right. Right. Right.
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Right. Right.
Shannon Popkin (34:47) on our feet begging or on our knees begging, you know, it says
Erika (34:48) Right. Right.
Shannon Popkin (34:50) she fell, you know, she, she came and knelt before him, right? This is the correct posture. It’s a kneeling. It’s a begging. It’s a, it’s, it’s not a demanding you give me what’s on that table. It’s a, it’s an, I need is a crumb. And yet like, you know, he is the King. He gets to decide. And yet here’s what we’re seeing. What we’re learning about Jesus is that kind of faith.
Erika (34:53) Right.
Right. Yes. Right.
Shannon Popkin (35:15) is it impresses him. He likes it. He responds to it and don’t I mean when you want Jesus to say I like
Erika (35:22) Yes! Yes! Yes!
Shannon Popkin (35:22) this woman, I like her, I like her prayers, I like her faith. I mean wouldn’t that be just amazing that he if he would say that about me and about you Erica and about our friends who are listening because I know I mean maybe we don’t have demon possession but we’ve got some heavy burdens in our lives. We’ve got our own kids that are struggling.
Erika (35:38) Yeah,
Shannon Popkin (35:42) you know,
maybe with anxiety, with depression, with a sickness and illness, with, you know, a whole litany of issues in their lives. I mean, each kid may have several things that you need to be on your knees with tenacity begging the king for a crumb, right?
Erika (35:55) Right.
Right.
Shannon Popkin (36:02) it had to be encouraging that this one that she called the son of David said, woman, great is your faith. mean, everybody in the vicinity had to turn and say, wow, that’s impressive, right? That Jesus, you know, and so I think to live like it’s true is that Jesus, I feel like he’s silent, but he sees my faith, right? As I approach him in faith.
Erika (36:08) Yes!
Yeah.
Shannon Popkin (36:27) That is honoring to him and he honors me, right? That he’s a Lord who honors me when I ask, when I beg, when I come to him on my knees. And he’s the Lord who can heal. She was healed instantly, the word says. It is, be it done to you as you desire. I think too, there’s a, live like it’s true that.
Erika (36:29) Yep. Yes. Yes.
Shannon Popkin (36:49) what we want, we should come to the Father. We should come to Jesus with those, right? These things that maybe nobody else is praying for your child, right? In the whole world, nobody else. And so, wow, these desires, like they matter and we should come to Jesus with them and he does have the power to heal instantly. You know, like you said, we don’t know for sure that that will happen.
Erika (36:52) Yes. Yeah.
Shannon Popkin (37:16) There’s different stories where, you know, there wasn’t an immediate healing, right? There was the one where the guy was healed with the blindness. He was healed in phases, right? You know, and there were other people who weren’t healed at all, but Jesus can heal. so holding onto that and responding. Yeah. So, well, Erica, thank you so much for an amazing conversation again.
Erika (37:28) in phases.
Mm -hmm. Yes. Yes. Yep.
Yeah.
Shannon Popkin (37:43) Loved
every minute of it. I so appreciate you. yeah, how can readers or how readers, how can listeners find you and your podcast and your books?
Erika (37:46) Yeah.
Well, my sister and I do the podcast together, the Context and Color of the Bible podcast. And it’s wherever you can get a podcast, Apple, Spotify, we’re all of those places. And she also has created a website for us, thecontextandcolorofthebible .com. And so you can find us there, find our podcast there. You can find, I’ve written a book, I’ve got another one I’m working on, and my sister’s done a couple of tween studies.
on Books of the Bible that she wrote, so that’s on our website as well.
Shannon Popkin (38:27) That’s
so great. Appreciate you guys and all that you do to serve the Lord.
Erika (38:29) Yeah,
well you too Shannon and thank you for having me. It’s always an honor.
Shannon Popkin (38:35) stuff.