Shannon Popkin (00:00) I’m so excited to have Cheryl Marshall joining us today for a conversation surrounding the topic of her new book, which is All of Me Pursuing a Life Wholly Devoted to God. it’s a book published by The Good Book. And Cheryl, I’m so excited to talk to her. She is a

A wife and a mom. She’s married to a Bible teaching linguist, which is so fun. And she’s a graduate of the Southern Baptist Theological Sit Seminary. Cheryl serves as the director of women’s ministry at her church, Founders Baptist Church in Spring, Texas.

And she is the host of the whole life worship podcast. So I’m so excited to have this conversation

Cheryl, welcome to Live Like It’s True.

cheryl (00:50) I’m so glad to be here. Thank you for having me.

Shannon Popkin (00:52) Yes. I mean, this is gonna be an important conversation, I can tell, because we had a lot of tech technical difficulties getting started. you know, maybe somebody doesn’t want us having this conversation, but we’re going to and I’m I’m so thankful. so you are a wife, a mom, and a grandma. How old are your grandbabies?

cheryl (01:12) My grandbabies are two years old And our granddaughter was born in June. So she’s just what what how many months is that? Three, four, something like that. Yeah. So we’re very blessed.

Shannon Popkin (01:21) Yeah, yeah, just a few months. You’re living my dream,

girl. You’re living my dream. I can’t wait to be a grandma. But no pressure on my children. but I just think, that’s gotta be the best. And so,

cheryl (01:35) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (01:36) and this is your second book to be published. I when I

cheryl (01:39) Yes.

Shannon Popkin (01:40) saw it, I you know, your publicist sent me a digital copy. And when I pulled it up, I was like

I have seen this book everywhere. It has a beautiful cover. That’s I was totally drawn to the cover. But I have seen it on, didn’t they? Yeah. Yeah. And

cheryl (01:52) They did a great job with that. They did a great job with that cover. So thankful for it.

Shannon Popkin (01:58) super beautiful and modern. And but you know, just the the topic of the book, too. I’m drawn to this topic of pursuing a life wholly devoted to God. You know, David says, Unite my heart.

Right to follow you rather than having this fragmented life. so I wanted to start though by just ta taking a look at the, you know, the foundational verse of this book, which is Romans 12. you talk about how Romans 12, one says that we are to offer our life as a living sacrifice. But you notice that the verse doesn’t begin with our sacrifice, it begins with the mercies of God. So what are you what are you noticing there?

cheryl (02:41) Well,

can I read the whole little passage for your listeners? Okay.

Shannon Popkin (02:44) Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. That’d be great.

cheryl (02:46) So starting with Romans 12, 1 through 2, and as you mentioned, the whole book is based upon these two verses. It says, I appeal to you, therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed.

By the renewal of your mind that by testing you may discern what the will of God is, what is good and acceptable and perfect. And so I’m sorry, the question was why start with the mercies or what is Paul doing there? Is that the idea?

Shannon Popkin (03:21) Yeah,

like the living sacrifice. I feel like that really relates to your title, like living holy for God,

cheryl (03:27) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (03:28) you know, being this living sacrifice. But you noticed that the verse doesn’t begin with the sacrifice. It begins with, you know, because of the mercies of or, you know,

cheryl (03:36) Yes.

Shannon Popkin (03:37) noticing the mercies of God. What what were you noticing there?

cheryl (03:40) Well, first of all, I’ll have to say that as I worked through the book, this probably ended up being my favorite chapter called Motivated by Mercy. And it was just amazing for me to think how as Paul was writing the book of Romans, he has these first eleven chapters, which are all about the mercies of God, right? His grace. We we see there in those chapters how desperately we need a savior. We see that Jesus is

The perfect Savior. And then Paul explains how we receive salvation by the sovereign grace of God. And at the end of all of that, after he’s speaking of all these mercies, then he just erupts in praise. He says, For from him and through him and to him are all things to him be glory forever and ever. Amen. And then in the very next verse, Romans 12 1, he says, Okay.

Now, because of these wonderful gifts of God, you now give yourself to God as a living sacrifice. It’s the mercies of God that are to motivate a life devoted to him. And so I just was so drawn to these verses. And as I worked through them, I mean they really impacted me as well, but really helped me to see how desperately I need a savior. Just a reminder of that. And then seeing his

goodness to us in so many ways through those first eleven chapters, there’s no other foundation that can hold a life of devotion to God, except for his mercies.

Shannon Popkin (05:17) So true.

Yeah, so true. We’re actually studying Romans at church right now. And so

that’s our

cheryl (05:22) Wonderful.

Shannon Popkin (05:23) our sermon series and our Bible study is linked up to the sermon series. And so we’re we’re just in Romans one through two right now. And we’re looking at, you know, like God’s mercy or our need for his mercy, right?

cheryl (05:37) Yes.

Shannon Popkin (05:38) and I love that you’re, you know, this is it’s so good for us to have like these overviews.

of books of the Bible so that we can be looking for like this is the hinge verse, Romans 12,

cheryl (05:48) It is.

Shannon Popkin (05:49) one through two. It’s the hinge. It’s like now with all of that in mind, here then is how you should live. And I love your illustration of like the canal. Can you can you share that?

cheryl (06:00) Yes, I used the illustration of the Panama Canal. That on one side you have the Pacific Ocean and on one side you have the Atlantic Ocean. And it came to mind in the writing because I remember my my grandparents were sort of world travelers in their retirement. They’d worked hard their whole lives. They’d scrimped and saved and now they were going to use it to see the world. And they would come back with pictures and little trinkets for us girls.

And I still remember seeing the pictures of the Panama Canal and them explaining that to me. And as I came to this verse or these two verses, I realized Romans one through eleven is like the Pacific Ocean. And then Romans 12, one and two is the canal that connects it to the Pacific Ocean. I mean, I’m sorry, the Atlantic Ocean. So the Pacific Ocean is all the mercies of God. All those things, just wave after wave of the mercies of God.

Then Paul uses these couple verses to then take us to the other side, to take us to the Atlantic Ocean. And in a sense, now that is where he says, okay, now sail. Live this life, sail forward. And he’s connecting the two aspects, the grace and the mercy, the salvation we have in Christ. But then on the other side, he says, now live for him. Do not live for yourselves, live for him. It’s really connected to

Ephesians two eight through ten, for by grace you have been saved. And then in

Shannon Popkin (07:25) Yes. Five years.

cheryl (07:27) verse ten, for we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works. And so it yeah, right. So those that’s how that all connects.

Shannon Popkin (07:32) to do good works. So yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

I love that. I love that. So what is mercy? You know, like what what’s your definition of mercy?

cheryl (07:45) I use just a very simple definition of mercy that probably others have used as well. You can’t really improve on a good thing. but basically, God’s mercy is his goodness and kindness to those who are in need, and also those who are in need, and therefore we can’t deserve it. We don’t deserve it.

Shannon Popkin (08:04) Right.

cheryl (08:05) But it just highlights his goodness and his kindness that we are needy people, that we need a savior. We need

All that he gives in in creation, he sustains us, he made us, he sustains us. So we have that aspect of his mercy, which we find that in Psalms, you know,

he talks

Shannon Popkin (08:24) Mm-hmm.

cheryl (08:24) about the creation. But then he recreated us in Christ. And there’s the mercy of our salvation. And it’s when you start to meditate upon it, you realize how wonderful and how good he really is to us.

Shannon Popkin (08:41) Mm-hmm. Yeah. I I think of like if I if I’m differentiating between mercy and grace, mercy is not receiving the judgment that I do deserve. And grace is receiving what I don’t deserve, right? And so the mercy, like I think it calls to mind our sin, right? That we are undeserving of God’s favor and we we lack

You know, I mean, look at Romans one. It’s it lays it all out, right? We need

cheryl (09:12) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (09:14) a savior. Look at how how how depraved. If we don’t know God, this is what happens to us. Like Romans one lists out here’s the progression of not knowing God. And we reject him, right? And so, but he in his mercy, in his great mercy, he pursues us. And starting

cheryl (09:31) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (09:32) with Abraham and Sarah, you know, in Romans twelve or I mean Genesis twelve, they weren’t

They weren’t like this noble couple who were seeking after God or fought, like their family. Joshua 24 2 says that they were they were a family who were they were seeking other gods too. And so it’s like in his mercy, God pursues this family and continues to pursue this family, even though they’re not living a life holy devoted to the Lord. And so it’s really

cheryl (09:59) Mm-hmm. Right.

Shannon Popkin (10:02) it’s but because of his great mercy, like knowing the story and knowing.

That we don’t deserve him. Like knowing, you know, that whole like the one side of the canal, all of

cheryl (10:14) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (10:14) this ocean of his mercy, it should influence then the way that we live. and

cheryl (10:20) Yes.

Shannon Popkin (10:20) so yeah, in Romans 12, one talks about being this living sacrifice. I don’t know if you got to this in your book because I didn’t have a chance to read the whole thing, but I remember a sermon once where our pastor described, like, you know, the temple and how.

the sacrificial system involved bringing an animal onto an altar and it was a living a living animal. And, you know, the animal didn’t have the choice, but look at us, we’re to climb up on that altar by ourselves, like as a living

cheryl (10:52) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (10:53) sacrifice. Did you talk about that at all in your in your book?

cheryl (10:56) Yes. There’s a chapter called All on the Altar. And

Shannon Popkin (10:59) Okay.

cheryl (10:59) that’s where we really dig into what does it mean to be a living sacrifice? And we really won’t understand that until we give at least some consideration to the sacrifices of the Old Testament. So I take just a few short pages and give a quick overview of that. And, you know, when I did that, I wasn’t sure how readers would respond to that. And it’s been interesting to hear how many readers have said.

Thank

you for clarifying some of that and making it simple to understand or simpler to understand what all was taking place with these sacrifices. And so I break down five of the main ones that we

Shannon Popkin (11:37) Okay. Mm-hmm.

cheryl (11:38) find in Leviticus 1 through 7. But the conclusion I draw, and it’s not just my conclusion, others as well, is that Paul may have very well been thinking of the burnt sacrifice, which was offered morning and evening.

One of its purposes could be as a as an offering of consecration or devotion. It was on a fire that continually burned and it was reduced to ashes. There was nothing left. And so when he says, present yourself as a living sacrifice, this is a continual thing. This is a daily thing. This is where you’re not holding back, you’re not re-leaving or you’re not keeping anything in reserve.

Shannon Popkin (12:20) Yeah, and

reserve, right.

cheryl (12:22) Rather you’re

saying, like Mary, the mother of Jesus, you know, I am your servant. Let it be to me according to your word.

Shannon Popkin (12:29) Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah. Yes. And that’s that is the passage where we’re gonna go. Luke one, where Mary is responding to a pretty jarring, you know, not not actually it’s not even a request. It’s a it’s a statement of what’s gonna happen with her life. And I think that, you know, God does ask so much of us.

But it is so important to be mindful of his mercy. Like it’s channeling that mercy is what fuels the sacrifice. It’s understanding, it’s looking at this overarching story that we’re part of we have rejected our creator and he is so good and so kind. And yet he continually pursues us. And I think what we’re gonna see in Mary’s story is that she has that whole story in mind.

Right. This is this is an amazing moment in time in her life that’s recorded, but I think it reflects a bigger story, a bigger life of you

cheryl (13:32) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (13:33) know, surrendering control to God. So, so let’s go there. Mary is a young woman. She we’ve meet her in Luke chapter one, and she is part of this family that God has chosen. She’s

An Israelite. She’s a daughter of Abraham. And and she knows what God has promised for her people. and and then this is the story of her getting to be part of that, being a sacrifice that is part of this this bigger story. So I I would love it, Cheryl, if you could just read some of these verses to get us started. Let’s have you,

cheryl (14:15) Sure.

Shannon Popkin (14:16) if you would mind, wouldn’t mind reading.

Luke chapter one, twenty-six through let’s just go through thirty-eight. Let’s go all the way through.

cheryl (14:26) All

right, very good. Okay, starting at verse twenty six. In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph of the house of David, and the virgin’s name was Mary, and he came to her and said, Greetings, O favoured one, the Lord is with you. But she was greatly troubled at the saying and tried to discern what sort of greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, Do not be afraid, Mary.

For you have found favor with God, and behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end. And Mary said to the angel, How will this be since I am a virgin? And the angel answered her.

The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the most high will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God. And behold, your relative Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son, and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren, for nothing will be impossible with God. And Mary said, Behold, I am the servant of the Lord, let it be to me according to your word. And the angel departed from her.

Shannon Popkin (15:54) Okay, thank you. So what is surprising in this story, Cheryl?

cheryl (16:01) Well, several things are right. This is this is an

Shannon Popkin (16:04) Yes.

cheryl (16:05) amazing story. Well we’ll we’ll start with Christ Himself. That here we have the announcement of the promised one, the Messiah, the one that Israel has been waiting for since Genesis to come and to defeat the enemy. And here he is being announced. And so first of all that we have

What the angel is saying here, it says, He will be great and will be called the son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David. He has come.

Shannon Popkin (16:39) Yes.

cheryl (16:40) And what what joy that must have brought Mary, even if she had not been told that she’d be the mother, if she

Shannon Popkin (16:50) Mm-hmm.

cheryl (16:50) had been just told, He’s coming, he’s here, that would have been a message to proclaim right there. But

Shannon Popkin (16:57) Yeah.

cheryl (16:57) the angel then brings something more.

Shannon Popkin (17:00) Yeah. Yeah, it is surprising. Like, if you know, and this is where I’m saying we got to back up and look at the whole story. You know,

cheryl (17:05) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (17:06) it’s surprising because of our state. Like, look at how quickly we rejected our creator and rejected his rule over us. And look at the state, you know, by by Genesis, Genesis one, we have creation, Genesis two. you know, God creates the man and the woman in Genesis three, they’re already.

rejecting him and there is this fallenness, there’s corruption that enters the world. and by Genesis four, it’s like we’ve got a murder. You know, like in the first family,

cheryl (17:39) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (17:39) we’ve got murder. And by Genesis six, we have, you know, spanning out all of creation, God looks at the hearts and he sees that the intentions of mankind is only always evil. Like this is this is

the the humanity that he created to reflect him, you know,

cheryl (17:55) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (17:55) his his beautiful character. And so look at how badly, how bad things get so quickly. And

cheryl (18:02) Right.

Shannon Popkin (18:02) and it’s it’s because of God’s mercy that a savior is coming. And that savior is

cheryl (18:09) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (18:09) promised all the way from Genesis three. And so I think the surprise is that God would reach into his his creation, that he wouldn’t just say,

cheryl (18:18) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (18:19) you know what, that’s enough.

Like actually, if you look at it from that perspective, the flood makes sense. And it would make sense that that would just be the end of the story, you know, like the flood, the end. Like that would actually make sense. But the Bible is a story about God’s mercy, right? And so it’s like the Lord has more to say about himself, the main character.

And that’s why the flood story also has an ark. And the ark rises above the judgment and

cheryl (18:46) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (18:47) and moves the story forward. And and it’s like so then then we have God selecting this little family that he’s gonna bless. And for thousands of years now, we’ve been waiting for like each generation,

cheryl (18:59) Yes.

Shannon Popkin (18:59) we’re we’re turning the page saying, Okay, is this the one? Is this the one? No, not because he’s fallen too. And finally we have the news, okay, he’s coming, the savior is coming. And there’s such a great surprise there.

But do you think there’s a surprise in the way that he’s coming, Cheryl?

cheryl (19:17) Yes, we

for sure we want to get to that part. If I could just mention one other thing before we go to that portion of this idea and and this passage. I have always loved how the angel appears to Joseph and says, You will call him Jesus because he will save his people from their sin. That’s why he came. He didn’t come just to be a good teacher. He didn’t just come to set us an example. He came to be our savior.

And so

Shannon Popkin (19:47) That’s right.

cheryl (19:47) that ties into this whole mercy concept. But what yeah,

Shannon Popkin (19:49) Yes, absolutely. Yes. Thanks for clarifying that.

cheryl (19:52) yeah. But the other aspect that is so surprising of the story, of course, is that the angel comes to one of the lowliest creatures, lowliest women on earth, and that is this little peasant girl, Mary.

And

of course, he’s come with this wonderful news that she will be overshadowed by the Holy Spirit and she will conceive the Son of God. But look who he comes to. He doesn’t come to a queen, he doesn’t come to a rich man’s daughter. He comes to a peasant girl who’s in Nazareth. Nazareth was just an obscure, poor, out-of-the-way place. She is probably just twelve, thirteen, fourteen years old. We know that because historically,

Young girls were betrothed around that age. We know that she’s betrothed to Joseph. They would become betrothed, and then a year later they would marry. So she’s young. we know that she’s a virgin, and we know that she is probably, because of the time, uneducated. And yet at the same time, we also learn in the following verses that she knows the word of God,

that

Shannon Popkin (21:06) Yeah. Yeah.

cheryl (21:08) she understands.

The background that you’ve been talking about.

Shannon Popkin (21:12) Mm-hmm.

cheryl (21:13) And she has some concept of how incredible this is that the Messiah has come and that she is now the to be the mother of the Son of God. And so we just see here how God uses the ordinary to put his glory on display.

Shannon Popkin (21:31) Mm-hmm. That’s so true.

cheryl (21:34) This is one of the highlights of that in all of scripture.

But we see that over and over again, we see that idea again and again in the Bible. And if I could just share something that Paul writes in First Corinthians one, verses twenty-seven through thirty, where he addresses this idea of the Lord using the humble, of him saving the humble and putting his glory on display. He says in First Corinthians one, twenty-seven through thirty, but God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise. God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong.

God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God, and because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so that, as it is written, let the one who boasts boast in the Lord. So it’s just another reminder that God uses.

common vessels. He uses us to glorify himself, to reveal his goodness, to reveal again his mercy. And

Shannon Popkin (22:46) Yeah. Mm-hmm.

cheryl (22:49) it’s just another picture of God’s kindness towards sinners.

Shannon Popkin (22:56) Yeah. If we looked at it from a human perspective, you know, God choosing the family that his son would be born into, we’d probably choose, I don’t know, the high priest’s family or

cheryl (23:07) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (23:08) something, you know, maybe somebody in wealth or power or something, right? We would choose

cheryl (23:13) Right.

Shannon Popkin (23:14) the elevated because that’s the way of the world. But

cheryl (23:17) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (23:17) God’s ways are upside down, right?

cheryl (23:20) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (23:21) and and so yeah, it is surprising. I think.

where they’re looking for this Messiah, it probably wouldn’t be this line, you know, like check

cheryl (23:30) No.

Shannon Popkin (23:30) it, like checking the babies, you know, born into this family line. This is not where they’d be looking for this grandeur. But I I also see a surprise, you know, from Mary’s perspective. It’s like, wait, what? Did you say a baby? You

cheryl (23:43) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (23:44) know, because here she’s she is, she’s in her betrothal. And and so in those days, it’s sort of like you signed the marriage certificate.

And then you had the betrothal period, which would be maybe somewhat like our engagement, although, you know, to break the betrothal would require divorce. And so you don’t have to, you don’t need divorce to break an engagement. So that’s a little bit different. Like it is signed. It is like they are,

cheryl (24:10) Right.

Shannon Popkin (24:11) they are seen as married. They just haven’t consummated the marriage. And so the whole point of this betrothal period is to prove, you know, her virtue. It’s like

This is this is the period of time.

cheryl (24:22) Right.

Shannon Popkin (24:22) And she’s like, wait, what? The baby before the the wedding? Like this is like why would you know, I mean, I’m sure there

cheryl (24:28) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (24:29) was a lot of shock associ Why would God ask me that? I’m a I’m a good, you know, follower of God here. I don’t want I don’t want this. Do you feel like, you know, there was

cheryl (24:37) Right. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (24:39) there was just immediately probably that shock?

cheryl (24:42) I would think so. Of course, that’s not recorded, which is so interesting to me. We don’t hear any hesitation on her part. She does ask a question, but it doesn’t seem to be a question of unbelief, as much as she’s just like, Can you explain this to me? How’s this gonna happen? you

Shannon Popkin (24:58) Yeah, sure. Yeah. Like, how’s this gonna be?

cheryl (25:02) know, we’ve we’ve heard this story many times, and so we’re used to the story. This had not been a story before. And so she’s

Shannon Popkin (25:08) Yeah.

cheryl (25:09) like, What do you mean by this? How is this gonna happen? But

We don’t sense any pushback from her. We don’t

Shannon Popkin (25:14) Right. None.

cheryl (25:16) we don’t sense any doubt. We don’t sense any hesitation or reservation. And I do wonder, even though it’s not recorded, and yes, it is speculation, but I would wonder, did anything go through her mind quickly, like it would go through our minds? Like, what is Joseph gonna say? What’s he gonna do? I’m gonna be shamed in my community.

My family might be ostracized because of this. No one’s gonna believe me. You know, maybe those things flash through her mind. But, you know, walking in faith is just that. When we we move forward in obedience to the Lord, even when we don’t have all of the questions answered, and even when

Shannon Popkin (26:02) Exactly.

cheryl (26:03) there may be fear. You know, you

Shannon Popkin (26:06) Right.

cheryl (26:06) mentioned Joshua earlier. He says,

The Lord said, Be strong and courageous, do not tremble or be dismayed, for the Lord your God is with you wherever you go. And then the angel literally says that to her. He says, The the Lord is with you.

Shannon Popkin (26:19) Yes, she does, yeah.

cheryl (26:21) And

and she moves forward in that. So I think it’s an aga an example to us of how to respond to the Lord’s word. She received the word of the Lord and she received it. When we receive, when we see what the revealed will of God is in the scriptures, do we receive it like Mary?

Shannon Popkin (26:45) Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it’s a good question. And I I think like though to emphasize the historical background of this is only, you know, to call attention to her the immediacy of her surrender. Like this was and and also like it was the Lord who had set up these laws about

cheryl (27:03) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (27:04) you know, faithfulness to in within marriage. Like he’s the one

that we’re deferring to when we say that sex is for inside of marriage and so babies shouldn’t come before the wedding. Like he’s it’s his law, it’s his ways of setting up like family life. That’s what

cheryl (27:20) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (27:21) what we would defer to with these expectations. and so to to be told that she’s gonna have a child as a virgin, I I just think like it’s it is disorienting.

And and I think also like we just have to keep in mind this is a collectivist culture where Mary’s, you know, we think of a bride and a groom choosing each other because we live in a very individualistic culture. But for Mary, this is not just her marrying a man. This is her family being joined with another family. And this immediate I think probably if I had to guess what her immediate reaction would be, it’d be like, my goodness, what this is gonna affect so many people, you know.

cheryl (28:07) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (28:07) And and no one’s going to understand this. And yet it’s the Lord asking

cheryl (28:10) Right.

Shannon Popkin (28:11) me of asking this of me. And what I what I think is really telling is verse 32, when the angel replies to her question, you know, or no, I’m sorry, even before she asks her question, he says, He will be great. Right? He will be great. And so the angel is like, you’re gonna receive in your womb and bear a son.

You’ll call his name Jesus. Again, these are not questions. These are not like, will you? You know, would you consider?

cheryl (28:40) Mm-hmm. Right.

Shannon Popkin (28:42) These are like, you will, you will conceive. Yes, you will.

cheryl (28:44) This is the way it’s going to be.

Shannon Popkin (28:47) you’re gonna, here’s his name, you know. It’s all it’s like, okay.

cheryl (28:49) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (28:50) And but but the point of it is he will be great, right? he will be great, he will be the son of the most high. Like, and and this ask of her, it’s similar to us. It’s like as God.

You know, like asks us to be these living sacrifices to lay our lives on the altar. The ultimate purpose for that, do you agree? Is like that he would be great, that he would be elevated.

cheryl (29:17) Absolutely, absolutely. We we see that kind of idea, that tenor throughout scripture, even in a verse that’s so familiar to many of us, 1 Corinthians 10 31. Whether you eat or drink whatever you do, why do you do it? Do all for the glory of God. It’s about his glory. It’s not about ours. It’s about

Shannon Popkin (29:36) The glory of God. Yeah. Yeah. That she

cheryl (29:41) his glory. It’s not about Mary’s, right? So

Shannon Popkin (29:44) Yeah, exactly.

cheryl (29:46) yes.

For sure. What we see here is a young woman, even though she did not have any comprehension at this point of all the implications of this for her, right? She didn’t know the joys this would bring. She didn’t know the heartache, the pain this would bring. How many times do we come to something in scripture and maybe we recoil or do not submit to it?

Because we’re thinking about, well, what if this happens? What if this happens? What if she says this? What if he does that? This is too hard to obey. But we have Mary, he said, I don’t know these things,

but

Shannon Popkin (30:25) Yes.

cheryl (30:25) I will obey. And I think that’s again, that’s the idea, that’s the attitude we need to come to scripture with. I may

Shannon Popkin (30:32) Mm-hmm.

cheryl (30:32) not know all the implications of this. I don’t have to. All I have to do is entrust myself to the Lord, be obedient, and let him do his work.

for his glory.

Shannon Popkin (30:45) Mm-hmm. Amen. So, Cheryl, let’s just interject here and ask, how can we live like this story is true? You know, this story of Mary, how can we emulate her example and be that same kind of person?

cheryl (31:01) I really appreciate that question because this is where we now get into the nitty-gritty of our lives, right?

I really appreciate what Arkent Hughes says in his commentary on the book of Luke about how Mary responded to the word.

Of the Lord through the angel. And I think it really instructs us how we ought to be responding to the word of God as well. So, first of all, he says that Mary believed God. She believed what Gabriel said. She believed that as crazy as the sound that God could do what he is saying would happen, that she would be overshadowed by the Spirit and bear the Son of God. She believed. So what about us?

When we come to the Word of God, do we believe? As we read it, study it, as we hear it in a sermon, do we push back against it or do we say, no, this is from the Lord? He is my authority. He is my good God. And I will believe what he says for how I am to think, how I am to feel, how I am to live, and so forth.

But then secondly, Mary trusted God. It’s not simply that she believed, she now trusted him. She entrusted herself to him. she showed that by the choices she then made. She entrusted herself to God’s plan for her, but also his promises. And that goes back to her understanding that the Messiah was promised. We have a history as a people.

That God is now bringing us the anointed one. And she was trusting his promises. And I would suspect then that she trusted his promises as she went forward. Are we trusting in God’s plan for us? As revealed in the scriptures. Are we trusting his promises to us? But then she also submitted to God. So it wasn’t just an intellectual thing, it wasn’t just something in her heart.

It was now something where she says, You know, I’m going to live under this. I am going to be submissive to the Lord. And it reminds me of Jesus, her son, 33 years later in the garden, saying to his heavenly father, Not my will, but your will be done. So when we come to the Word of God, do we come with an attitude that says, Not my will, but your will be done?

Do we come to it with Mary’s attitude where she says, Let it be to me according to your word? Lord, I see here in Scripture how I am to handle my anger. Let it be to me according to your word. I see here in Scripture what you call for for my purity. Let it be to me according to your word. Lord, I see what you say about how I am to treat my husband and my children. Let it be to me according to your word.

And then finally, Arkant Hughes makes the observation that not only did she believe and trust and submit herself to God, she then actively obeyed him. She followed through. We see that throughout the rest of her life that she was faithful as the mother of our Lord. And so do we then walk through what God has called us to with active obedience? Just like Mary.

Shannon Popkin (34:29) Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I think there are so many ways that we live like it’s not true that God has a plan, that He has promises for us, that He has instructions for us, that He has good things for us. I think there’s so many ways that we live like this story is not true. and I mean Mary could have as well, you know, she could have like I maybe next time we’ll look at the story where she’s

gonna go visit her cousin and I just picture the average teenager saying, My life is over. Look at what’s look at what’s happened

to me, you know?

cheryl (35:05) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (35:06) But instead she’s singing this worship song, right? And so

cheryl (35:09) Uh-huh.

Shannon Popkin (35:10) she’s living like the story is true. She believes this is it’s gonna completely overturn her life, turn it upside down. And yet this is good news. This is

cheryl (35:20) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (35:20) her savior coming. And I love that you brought us again to Jesus.

like he is the perfect living sacrifice. All of those

cheryl (35:29) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (35:29) sacrifices in the Old Testament, those living sacrifices, those were helping us to see what, you know, how the story was gonna unfold and pointing us to Jesus, the ultimate living, once and for all, living sacrifice. And the precursor to that was him saying.

You know, Lord, if it’s possible, take this

cheryl (35:52) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (35:52) cup from me. Nevertheless, not my will, but yours be done. You know, I surrender even when like I think there’s a similarity between Mary in her humanity saying, How will this be? And Jesus saying, you know, let this cup pass. It it wasn’t he didn’t relish the idea of the c cross. He wasn’t like excited to go to the cross,

cheryl (36:13) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (36:14) but he was surrendered, you know, in his humanity. He did not, you know, he

He set aside the glory of of heaven.

he did not see the cross as again, something to relish. And yet it was he was surrendering to the Lord and saying, You see this as good. It doesn’t look good to me. You see this as good. And I’m gonna, I’m gonna say,

My life is yours, you know, and I think that’s that’s so beautiful.

cheryl (36:42) And if I could just point out also that our sacrifice as a living sacrifice is different than Christ’s.

Shannon Popkin (36:50) Mm.

cheryl (36:51) Christ’s sacrifice was a sacrifice of atonement and of redemption. And he accomplished it all. All of

Shannon Popkin (36:59) He did.

cheryl (37:00) it has been accomplished by his death, his resurrection, and his righteousness is now given to us. He lived a perfect life. He took our sin and he gave us his righteousness.

His was a sacrifice of redemption.

Shannon Popkin (37:13) Yes.

cheryl (37:14) Our living sacrifice is one of thanksgiving and praise and worship. So they’re two different types of sacrifices, and we can’t ever confuse them. We

Shannon Popkin (37:22) Yes. Yes.

cheryl (37:24) can’t ever start living our lives thinking that I’m earning the favor of God. That has been

Shannon Popkin (37:29) Well, that’s

cheryl (37:29) earned by the Savior.

Shannon Popkin (37:31) and that’s the whole point of your book is like it’s because

cheryl (37:33) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (37:34) of his great mercy through Jesus, the sacrifice has been paid, right?

cheryl (37:36) Mm-hmm. Yes.

Shannon Popkin (37:38) and Mary, even though she’s on a different place in the timeline, she’s before the cross. We live after the cross.

cheryl (37:43) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (37:44) Still, she’s looking at this is God’s provision for her sin. And it’s because of that gr great provision. I mean, she’s she announces it and proclaims it and celebrates it in the magnificat in her song that of response.

cheryl (37:57) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (37:59) and yet because of God’s goodness to her in this plan, she’s going to say, I’m the Lord’s servant, let it be to me, as you have said. So, well, Cheryl, tell us where we can find your beautiful new book. Give us the title again and where we can look for it.

cheryl (38:14) Well, the book is called All of Me, Pursuing a Life Holly Devoted to God. You can get it all you can get it at all of the major booksellers, such as Amazon. You can also go to the Good Book Company. The book actually does include a study guide at the end. And so

Shannon Popkin (38:30) Okay, great.

cheryl (38:31) we do know that there are churches and book clubs and discipleship groups that are using that. so you can actually get that at a group discount at the good book company as well.

Shannon Popkin (38:44) Very good. Thank you so much.