Shannon Popkin

Allison Brost is the author of Grateful, and she’s also an independent singer and songwriter. She lives in Janesville, Wisconsin, and she loves sharing daily encouragement online for those journeying in their faith at this side of perfect. So Allison is a wife, she’s a homeschooling mom, and she leads worship. And we’re so glad to have her here on Live Like It’s True. Allison, welcome.

Allison Brost (00:51) It’s so good to be here. Thank you for having me, Shannon.

Shannon Popkin (00:54) it’s my pleasure. We’re going to talk about a really great story in the Bible. But first, I want to just get a little insight into this book that you wrote about gratitude published by the Good Book Company. You know, we’ve had several good book authors recently, and I just love their books. So, you and I were chatting on the before we got on, and I would not have knowing your story, I would not have pegged you for someone

you know, ready to write a book about gratitude. The pieces don’t really fit. So back up and tell us about what happened in 2008.

Allison Brost (01:26) Thank

Yes, so 2018, that’s okay. 2018. Just a couple months before that, we had welcomed our fifth baby and I was having what I thought was a really normal Wednesday. Went to the park with my kids, doing homeschool. We made banana bread. It was just this really normal day. And I knew we had had some colds and things like that going through the house, but it was in the forties in Wisconsin and

Shannon Popkin (01:35) I’m sorry, 2018, yeah.

Allison Brost (02:00) in February, that’s pretty decent. you we were getting outside. Anyways, in that afternoon, I laid my five week old son down for a nap and he never woke up. And it was just this super obviously traumatic and just those moments where you think something like this would never happen to you and yet you’re living and walking through it. And I remember looking back one of the first moments so

We sent our other kids with grandparents for a couple of days while we were just trying to navigate all the things from picking out a gravestone to figuring out his clothes that we were going to bury him in. Just like these huge heavy things that you never envision yourself doing for your child. And so during that process, I remember going over to my in-laws house and they had our two-year-old son there and having to change his diaper. And it was the first time that gratitude after grief really struck me.

I had been in the weeks before, like so many moms trying to potty train this two year old and he would not be potty trained. And after losing my baby, I just remember each strap of that diaper just feeling this immense weight of gratitude. Like, God, thank you that I still have this little one in diapers, something so small. And yet I think that’s what God wants. He invites us in to see that they’re still good.

in our stories because he’s still working. And not that he brings us there right away because I’ve gone through many seasons and many moments where I don’t see that. But yet that’s the truth we get to live in. And so I’m just, I truly am grateful. I really am.

Shannon Popkin (03:44) Wow, I mean, what a beautiful heart response to something so tragic. can’t, like there was no warning. There was, you you didn’t have this buildup to finally, a lot of parents who are facing, you know, disease or something, cancer, where they have a lot of time to process and then the letting go is like, I don’t want them to suffer this way.

you were making banana bread and going to the park, there was no suffering. And then there was this great loss that you were unprepared for. just, you know, how did you bridge that gap from grief to gratitude? what, you know, what’s behind that moment where you’re changing a diaper and giving thanks? Like what…

Allison Brost (04:38) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (04:41) What are you, is it just like, I’m gonna salvage, you know, the good, I’m not gonna just forget all the good, or is it, I have a handle on something bigger than what happened? Like, what’s the processing behind that moment?

Allison Brost (04:56) Yeah, that’s such a good question. I think acknowledging that God meets us in the hard and so he’s not in a hurry to bring us along anywhere, but just that I continued each day just to stake my life on this that, okay, I remember the first moments when the ambulance came there, I had to call 911 and I’m waiting out on my concrete steps, just waiting and praying.

Shannon Popkin (05:20) Yeah.

Allison Brost (05:26) that he’s gonna have life brought back into his body and seeing them come back out and realizing that that wasn’t gonna be this story was just so hard and so heavy. And in the moment, I think you can feel kind of betrayed, like, God, I know that you can do this. I know that you’re capable. And yet seeing that that’s not going to be what happens is really hard. And so…

Shannon Popkin (05:35) Mmm.

Allison Brost (05:52) think the thing that I love about God is that he doesn’t rush us past that point. I love in the gospels where he meets Mary and Martha at the grave site and they’re telling him, if you had only been here, my brother would not have died. And he weeps with them. And I think that’s what God does in our grief is that he sits with us in it. He meets us there and he doesn’t rush us past our gravesides. just.

Shannon Popkin (06:01) Mm-hmm.

Allison Brost (06:19) He just welcomes himself in and he says, I’m gonna be here as long as you need to be. And that’s what we need in grief is knowing that we’re not alone and that love then bridges that gap to bring us and let us keep moving forward and keep living.

Shannon Popkin (06:37) Wow, I love that. He doesn’t rush us. And I had Vanita Reisner talk about that story with Martha and Mary. And I mean, that woman has suffered. She also lost a baby like you and also has had physical, you know, she has polio, she has post polio syndrome. And, you know, she talked about trying to…

She’s a Bible study leader and she didn’t to be contradicting all of the things that she stood for, even though in her heart, she was not there. She’s like, at the funeral, I was saying, God is good and all things, but in my heart, I did not feel that. She was feeling the tension between what she was saying was true and how she was feeling. And she too talked about how God…

Allison Brost (07:25) was.

Shannon Popkin (07:34) it was okay with her not rushing past that grief. And I mean, don’t you think it’s like, I just think any healthy child is a miracle. any baby that is actually born with all four limbs and know, fingers and toes, like that’s a miracle. for…

Allison Brost (07:36) Yes.

Exactly.

Good.

Shannon Popkin (07:59) Us to expect, I think sometimes we hold on to this great expectation that we’re gonna have just one happy moment after another, after another, and after another. I’ve written, think, in one of my books about how I want my life to be like one of those little board books that you give babies. They’ve got the really thick pages. It’s like, this is my story. Every page is a sunny picture. There’s nothing, no.

Allison Brost (08:17) Yes.

Okay.

Shannon Popkin (08:23) dark valleys, know, nothing too hard, too tragic to have to deal with. Like a child can’t handle that. And then you get from the happy ending to, or happy beginning to the happy ending. And that’s what I want my life to be. Like the chunky board book version where I don’t go through any dark valleys. And yet, I mean, if you back up and look at where we are in the story, that’s a little bit, I mean, we’ve been exiled from Eden, you know, to expect Eden is,

Allison Brost (08:28) Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Shannon Popkin (08:54) I think we’re missing something when we hold on to these expectations. So yeah, think that God is grieving too. He is not expecting us to live as though we’re an Eden, right? Yeah.

Allison Brost (09:11) Exactly. Yes.

And that’s why my first book is called This Side of Perfect, because how do we navigate, whether it’s child loss or health issues or just the everyday brokenness of our world, of knowing that we’re living on this side of eternity where those things happen. And I think it’s realizing that we have the hope of Him, that His Word really is true and He is who He says He is, and that I believe is the foundation of gratitude.

Shannon Popkin (09:38) Yeah, well, you’ve got this new book.

called Grateful 30 Days of Growing in Thankfulness. And so to me that sounds like you don’t feel like you’ve arrived, know, it’s not like you’re on the other side and you’re just completely grateful and all is well. It sounds like it’s a journey and you’re taking us with us. Am I right about that?

Allison Brost (09:47) Yes.

so

much so I love that. I remember chatting with a friend when I first got signed with this work and feeling like I am not capable of doing this. Like God must be joking to have me writing a book about gratitude because it is such a bridge from writing about grief to writing about gratitude. A little bit of the story behind that is I had felt the Lord compel me to do these 30 days of gratitude. November, I think it was 2022.

Shannon Popkin (10:15) Yeah.

Allison Brost (10:32) And I just thought I was doing something for my blog page. I felt God wanting to grow me in that area. And lo and behold, I had been in touch with a publisher at that time and they had gone on my page. They actually suggested me to write about gratitude. I would have never, ever said I should write about gratitude because I don’t feel like I’m a gratitude expert. I feel like so often I can fall into grumbling or complaining or being negative.

And yet God knew that this was the gift I needed to grow from those griefs of life to really just cementing my life on the truth of who he is.

Shannon Popkin (11:09) Well, Alison, I feel like you’re the right person to write the book then because I have a couple of friends who are kind of like Pollyanna. You know, they just see the good and everything and I’m like, I just I’m not like you. And so I would rather be hearing from my friend, Alison, who, know, you’re kind of on the grumpier side of the spectrum and yet choosing gratitude like that’s that’s actually good. And so and I can see why, you know, as you’re.

Allison Brost (11:28) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (11:36) your publishers scoping out your page like, okay, this is a good project. So the story that we’re going to look at has to do with these 10 lepers that Jesus heals. Spoiler alert, he heals all of them. So, you know, let’s just talk for a moment about leprosy. know, so leprosy sounds

awful. I was reading up on it. Do you have any background? you know anything about leprosy?

Allison Brost (12:11) You know, just that feeling of isolation, because again, it was a considered a contagious disease. And so it really just ostracized people from their families, their communities, from even their church. I mean, they could not even go into the synagogue. And so there’s this complete isolation, both physically, spiritually, emotionally. And you see that in this story when we meet these 10 lepers that they’re on the outskirts of society, they’re in a space.

in between Galilee and Samaria, where even their location shows that they’re just in this in-between space. And I think so many of us, we don’t maybe struggle with a physical ailment, but how many of us can relate to those feelings of isolation and loneliness?

Shannon Popkin (12:56) and just being in between, know, waiting for something. And yeah, and I mean, the isolation, like we learned something about that in COVID, right? How devastating it is to be isolated from our people, from our normal activities. But I was just reading up on the disease itself. And I was reading about this, like a model, an up to, let’s see, let me just read this.

Allison Brost (12:58) Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Shannon Popkin (13:26) there’s this man named Dr. Paul Brand is the modern world renowned expert on leprosy. And he gives us some insight on what this is like in a modern day setting. He says that it primarily, it’s not like other diseases, it primarily acts as an anesthetic. And so it numbs the pain.

in your hands and your feet and your nose and your eyes. And so you’re thinking like, well, that doesn’t actually sound so bad, right? To have the absence of pain. so what makes it so horrible? Hansen’s disease has this, like actually the numbing is what makes it horrible. So for thousands of years, people thought the disease caused ulcers on people’s hands and feet, but actually his research shows

Allison Brost (13:56) bring.

Shannon Popkin (14:19) that it’s the numbing that you’re actually creating the problem in yourself. So he gives this example. He says, how does the decay happen? In villages of African Asia, a person with HD has been known to reach directly into a charcoal fire to receive a dropped potato. they don’t even, nothing in his body tells him not to pick up the potato. Patients at Brands Hospital in India would work all day.

Allison Brost (14:44) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (14:48) gripping a shovel with a protruding nail or extinguish a burning wick with bare hands or walk on splintered glass. So watching him, he began formulating this radical theory that primarily the problem is they don’t feel anything. And so he said on one occasion he tried to open the door of a little store room, but a rusty padlock would not yield. And so a patient,

Allison Brost (15:04) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (15:14) an undersized malnourished 10 year old approached him and said, Hey, let me try doctor. And so he offered, he reached for the key and with a quick jerk of his hand, he turned the key in the rusty lock. Brand was dumbfounded. How could this kid do this? You know? And so his eyes caught the clue. There was a drop of blood on the floor. so examining the boy’s fingers, he discovered that in the act of turning the key, he had gashed the finger open to the bone.

And so skin and everything was all exposed and the boy was completely unaware of it. So this is what is going on with these people.

they’re basically, their limbs are wearing away, but it’s like, they don’t realize what’s happening. And so like, this is a horrific disease and it’s a communicable disease. So like, that’s why they’re in isolation. And I mean, you can imagine,

how you would feel about someone with leprosy anywhere near your kids, right? You wouldn’t want anyone to be exposed. to something that could really destroy your life, could take your life. And so that’s what’s going on with these lepers. They are

Allison Brost (16:14) Exactly.

Shannon Popkin (16:24) They’re in isolation They’ve formed this community, the 10 of them, they all have the disease so they can live together. I remember when my husband got COVID. This is right at the beginning when we were all, you know, didn’t understand it all. And I mean, I was freaking out.

Allison Brost (16:34) I’m

Shannon Popkin (16:43) And so I told him he was banished to the basement and I would like drop off trays, you know, food and stuff. And he had to just live down there. He was so frustrated by that. And then the next day I found out I had it too. I’m like, all right, come on up, you know, let’s watch TV together. But that’s I mean, it’s like, let’s just live in misery together. And we were both so sick. But but that’s how that’s how this is for this little commune. They’re like.

Allison Brost (16:46) Thank you.

⁓

Yes.

Shannon Popkin (17:10) It’s commiseration. Let’s at least join forces and at least we have each other, you know?

Allison Brost (17:16) I think that’s interesting that even in our space of being lonely and isolation, we are always looking for community and belonging. And they were as well.

Shannon Popkin (17:17) Yeah

Yeah, yeah, and I’m just thinking about leprosy. I don’t know if this fits, you know, the fact that it’s actually an anesthetic kind of effect on your body, grief can kind of be that way, right? It can just numb you out. And have you found it healthy to actually feel things in your grief?

Allison Brost (17:36) Yeah.

and

Yes, I I love that again, God meets you there. And so whether I’m feeling angry or guilt, I think there’s so many different emotions that you can feel. Fear was for sure one of mine. Having other children, it was harder for me not to be worried about something else happening to my other kids. And I guess going back to that point about God meeting us that

Shannon Popkin (18:10) ⁓ sure, yeah.

Allison Brost (18:16) He just welcomes himself into those space without shame. So I don’t have to not feel those things. I don’t have to not be human. I don’t think God’s expecting me to stop being a human being with emotions and real feelings in order to follow him. And instead he just meets me there and brings me along and reminds me that he’s gonna be here with me every step of the way as long as it takes.

Shannon Popkin (18:40) Yeah, it’s so true. My first book was called Control Girl, Lessons on Surrendering Your Burden of Control from Seven Women in the Bible. I mean, for me, like opening my hands and recognizing I’m not actually in control, especially when my kids are involved, and God forcing me to like recognize that has been just so hard and yet it turns me back to Him, right?

Allison Brost (19:07) Exactly.

Shannon Popkin (19:08) And so, I mean, these lepers, most of them are Jews. We’re gonna find out there is one who isn’t, but they know God, but let’s just keep as a question in the back of our minds. Are they turning to God in this struggle? I think that’s a good question to ponder. So would you please read for us Luke 17, 11 through 19,

Allison Brost (19:34) Now on his way to Jerusalem, Jesus traveled along the border between Samaria and Galilee. As he was going into a village, 10 men who had leprosy met him. They stood at a distance and crawled out in a loud voice, Jesus, master, have pity on us.

When he saw them, he said, go show yourselves to the priests. And as they went, they were cleansed. One of them, when he saw he was healed, came back, praising God in a loud voice. He threw himself at Jesus feet and thanked him. And he was a Samaritan. Jesus asked, were not all 10 cleansed? Where are the other nine? Has no one returned to give praise to God except this foreigner? Then he said to him,

Rise and go. Your faith has made you well. I love that.

Shannon Popkin (20:27) Okay, I

do too. what’s surprising in the way Luke is telling this story?

Allison Brost (20:35) there’s several different things. I think one of them is to me, when Jesus just looks at them and says right away, go show yourselves to the priest. And I wonder if he is just asking them to put footsteps to their faith. Like they know the Old Testament that it says that if you have a skin disease that you’re supposed to go and get it cleared by the priest before you can be back in community. And so here,

Shannon Popkin (20:51) Yeah?

Allison Brost (21:03) without Jesus telling them they’re healed, without laying hands on them, without doing any of the typical things that he often does when he’s healing someone. He just says, go and go to the priest. And they do that still ill, still with the leprosy on their body, still all the things. And he’s saying, I want you to go unwell and just show yourself to the priest and really just put your faith in your feet.

Shannon Popkin (21:16) Yeah.

I love that, Allison. Yeah, I saw that same thing. You know, it’s not that Jesus is afraid to, you know, in another situation, he touches the leper, which nobody would have done. He’s not afraid to do that because, right, the situation with clean and unclean, you know, in Old Testament law, if they ever touched something unclean, well, they had to go through a process of becoming clean. But with Jesus, it’s reversed.

Allison Brost (21:38) exactly.

Yes.

Shannon Popkin (21:54) He’s

the one, if he touches the unclean one, they go from unclean to clean, right? It goes in reverse with him. so Jesus isn’t afraid to touch this leper, these lepers, But yeah, he tells them, put feet to your faith.

Allison Brost (21:59) Yes.

Exactly.

Shannon Popkin (22:14) And I think Jesus often does that for us, right? He asks us to walk, well, just like with Abraham, Was asked to walk by faith, walk a thousand miles in a direction, not knowing where he was going. And so we live in a world where we think of faith as something we do cerebrally, like with our minds, but in the Jewish mindset,

Allison Brost (22:21) Jeff.

Shannon Popkin (22:35) there was always feet to your faith. There was always some activity. if you look at Hebrews 11, you know, lists out all of these people by faith, what did they do? What activity, like what active thing, how did they put feet to their faith? It wasn’t just a way that they thought, it was a way that they lived. And that’s what Jesus is calling these men to do. And yet there is, even though it’s consistent, there is a surprise to that, because it’s different from the other miracles.

In other instances, He touches them and they’re well, But this time He’s asking them. So yeah, that’s surprising. so, you know, I if God is asking us to just to walk by faith and not really even understand that there would be healing on the other side of it, can you imagine, think of someone in her grief.

Allison Brost (23:03) Nice.

Exactly.

Shannon Popkin (23:26) What’s a way that she might put feet to faith as she’s grieving and not seeing how this could lead to her healing and yet just trusting the Lord with that? Can you think of any examples?

Allison Brost (23:37) Yes, I love that.

You know, for me, I think back to the idea of when we look at the end of our lives, like Jesus says, he’s going to tell us, well done, good and faithful servant. And in scripture, it says, if you love me, you’ll keep my commandments. And it’s the same idea of obedience. So when I come back to looking at a life that’s well lived, it really comes down to that. That’s that one thing of am I being obedient to what God is calling me to do next?

to what he’s calling me to do right now. And so that’s what I would challenge anyone. And that’s what he did in this story, was he just said, I’m not gonna tell you what’s gonna happen, not gonna tell you you’re gonna be healed. I’m just gonna tell you what to do right now.

Shannon Popkin (24:21) How about any practical commands that someone grieving, you know, would a faithful life would include what?

Allison Brost (24:30) Yes, I think first and foremost getting in the Word. I think the Word of God tethers us to what is true. And I don’t mean this in a way of, you know, I have a hard time. I’ll just be honest with this time of year with New Year’s resolutions and reading the Bible in a year. I love the idea, but I think a lot of times it can get us in this nasty pendulum swing between pride of, yes, I did it or defeat, man, I missed a day and I’m just giving up.

Shannon Popkin (24:53) Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Allison Brost (24:57) You know, and so instead, think God just invites us in with grace. Like, I know that this is the Word of God, right? In John 1, 1, says, the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word was God. So when I’m getting into the Word of God, I’m actually getting into know God himself. The more of the Word I get into myself, the more of God I’m getting into myself. And that is powerful and life changing. And so that is the biggest thing that when you’re going through grief, cement your life on this.

Shannon Popkin (25:13) Absolutely.

Allison Brost (25:26) Jesus in his parables equates this to a solid foundation of a rock. And we know that those storms of life, those winds and anything else is going to move. And so I look back at the seasons of grief in my life and think, God, as hard as it’s been, thank you for not letting me put my life on sand. Because everything else, like I’ve experienced the loss of relationship from difficult church transitions.

Shannon Popkin (25:31) Yes.

Allison Brost (25:55) experience the loss of a child and family relationships and so many other seasons and struggles and griefs. And know that so many of us go through those things, but what I found above and beyond all of that is that the foundation of God’s Word and a life built on Him does not change and it cannot be shaken. And so when you’re just in those moments of grief, like what can I do? Just found your life on that Word, get in the Word of God, even if it’s just five minutes a day or scripture here.

Shannon Popkin (26:14) Amen.

Allison Brost (26:25) And I believe that allowing God’s grace to meet you there grows you and you’ll find yourself growing and doing it even more often and it really does change your life.

Shannon Popkin (26:35) They need the person who is in the pages of this word. He is the healer. He’s the one that they need. And I think too, like just being with others, like we’re commanded to not forsake meeting with each other. And so there’s something healing about that. I think even the added,

Allison Brost (26:51) Yes.

Shannon Popkin (26:58) we’re commanded to be grateful. So that’s what your whole, book is all about is like choosing to obey this command. There’s, there’s some faith involved in that too. Like I can’t see what’s good, but yeah, I’m choosing to be grateful. And so in all of these ways, we put feet to our faith, just like these, these 10, they had that initial faith, but then

Allison Brost (27:02) guys.

and sing.

Shannon Popkin (27:20) you know, this is the next great surprise is like they’re walking. And I mean, that doctor that I was telling you about who found that like basically people were destroying their own limbs because they couldn’t feel that’s what leprosy does. I mean, were these guys like hobbling? they, I mean,

they were a rag tag bunch, I’m sure. And as they’re walking, can you even imagine them looking down and being like, my goodness, who was the first of the 10 of them? Like, ⁓ look at my hands, I can feel my feet. And looking at each other and being like, my goodness, that’s what you look like. Like, ⁓ my goodness, look what’s happening.

Allison Brost (27:49) Thank

Yes.

day.

Shannon Popkin (28:03) this amazing, amazing miracle. But then I see another huge surprise next in that, tell us that part, Allison, what happens there.

Allison Brost (28:14) Yeah, so it says one of them when he saw that he was healed came back to Jesus shouting praise God. And I think that’s interesting because again, remember that these men were 10, you know, sick men that were together in community. But all of a sudden in their healing, they separated. And sometimes I think on our own healing journey, we’ll find that people are in different places of that journey of growing.

Shannon Popkin (28:38) Ow.

Allison Brost (28:45) growing with God. And sometimes that means actually separating ourselves in order to get closer to God, whatever it needs to draw ourselves closer and near to Christ.

Shannon Popkin (28:55) yeah, there’s a separating there. I think it’s surprising that it’s just the one. Like wouldn’t you think all of them, right? But yeah, the one separates himself from the others and turns back to thank him. There’s this quote by John Piper where he says,

Allison Brost (29:02) Yes.

Yes.

Shannon Popkin (29:16) But he says, if you could have heaven without Jesus, would you be okay with that? you if you could have all the benefits of heaven, no more pain, no more sorrow, you know, you get your family back, get to live forever, get like all of these gifts, but Jesus wasn’t there, would you be okay with that? It’s like.

Allison Brost (29:28) Yes.

such

a thought-provoking question.

Shannon Popkin (29:40) Right?

Allison Brost (29:41) And I wonder sometimes in so many of these stories, including this one here with the lepers, if our hearts often are coming to God because we want something from him. We want a world that’s not full of brokenness and sickness and failed relationships and all these other things. that quote that you quoted from John Piper just reminds me of like, is Jesus really our most, our best, our highest treasure?

Shannon Popkin (29:52) Yeah.

Yeah, do we want something from him or do we just want him? And you know, these other nine, they’re going to the priest and then they’re gonna go to the temple and they’re gonna do their sacrifice and you can just see in their hearts like, I don’t have time to go back. I get my life back. I get to go and get declared, you know, that I’m clean. I get to go to, get the sacrifice over with so I can get on with my life.

Allison Brost (30:22) RIP.

Shannon Popkin (30:30) But this guy is like, wait a second, this man who just healed me, I mean, I do want to get on with my life, but I can’t miss out on meeting him, right? And later in the story when Jesus says, when he talks about this guy being, what’s the word he uses? The.

Allison Brost (30:43) Yes.

The foreigner.

Shannon Popkin (30:56) yeah, the foreigner. When he talks about

the foreigner, it’s the same word that’s used in the temple of like they had a section where if you weren’t Jewish, you weren’t allowed in,

they couldn’t go into the inner court. So they had this outer area where they were sequestered. And so that’s the name that Jesus uses for this guy. Like he had to be further away from the Jews, from the inner circle. This guy though recognizes, I get to go right into the Holy of Holies. I get to like meet him. he’s just right there. I get to meet him.

Allison Brost (31:25) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (31:31) I mean, first of all, I want to go say thank you, but I just want to meet him. I want to give him glory. Right. And so I think you’re exactly right. Like, do we just go to God wanting something from him or do we want him in our suffering, in our pain? You know, and this little incident is just a glimpse of what we’re going to get.

Allison Brost (31:31) Yes.

how to be in his presence.

Yes.

Yes.

Shannon Popkin (31:56) of heaven.

mean, these are just sort of like the appetizers before the main event of heaven. We’re just getting little windows into what it’s going to be like when everything is restored, when there’s no more sickness, no more leprosy, no more pain, no more death, right? What you experienced, you’re going to get to see your baby again, but that’s only possible because of Jesus. And so bypassing Jesus,

to get, you know, like wanting the gifts without the giver, that’s an inappropriate response in this situation. I think the whole reason Luke is telling us this story is to call this out. if this was a story where there were 10 lepers, they all got healed and they all came back to say thank you to Jesus, it sort of wouldn’t be,

Allison Brost (32:27) Yes.

Exactly.

Shannon Popkin (32:46) wouldn’t be a story. so, so talk about this next great surprise where it’s one who comes back and then there’s this punchline and he was a Samaritan. Like that’s, that’s surprising, right?

Allison Brost (32:56) Yes.

Yes, he was even further on the outskirts, someone that wasn’t accepted by Jews, they weren’t supposed to eat with, they weren’t supposed to marry with, this further separation. And yet he’s the one that comes back and realizes his need for a savior.

Shannon Popkin (33:16) Yeah, I wonder if there’s something telling here about the Jewish people, right? Because they had all the prophecy, they had the law, they had the prophets, they were the ones who knew to watch for the Messiah And yet they were the ones who killed Jesus, right? They were the ones with hard hearts. And you can just see there are the nations around looking, from the outside looking in, they’re like,

Like, let me in on this. I want to hear more. I just see

there’s something in this that it was the Samaritan who wanted to come back and talk to Jesus. I wonder if those of us who have grown up in church, there’s some sort of a hardness in us too, as opposed to those who have just lived in the despair of the world. They haven’t had the privileges that we have of having the Bible and how that shapes our families and

Allison Brost (34:03) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (34:15) Right?

Allison Brost (34:16) Yeah. You know, I kind of talked about this in my book, Grateful, just about how oftentimes familiarity we often just feel like can breed in gratitude because we’re so close to it. It’s like we miss it, what we have. And I think sometimes as believers, it can be the same way of, you know, I go to church every Sunday and we sing songs and we read from the Bible and you know, that kind of slow decline. I think

Shannon Popkin (34:26) you

Allison Brost (34:44) It doesn’t have to be that way. You know, it shouldn’t be that way. Of gratitude actually just keeps reminding us and keeps opening up our eyes to God’s goodness in everyday moments.

Shannon Popkin (34:45) Mm-mm.

It does, it does. so Jesus is, you know, he says, we’re not 10 cleansed, where are the other nine? Didn’t any return to give glory to God except this foreigner? And then he tells this guy, get up and go in your way, your faith has saved you. So he sees the faith of not just going to the priest, but going to God’s son. in that worship.

Allison Brost (35:19) Okay.

Shannon Popkin (35:23) in that giving glory to God. That’s also an example of our faith.

Allison Brost (35:30) Yes. I think one of the things that strikes me in this is that coming from a perspective of having gone through grief and growing in gratitude, think oftentimes we can hear those those instructions to be grateful or give thanks and feel like we’re being spiritually reprimanded. It almost negative connotation like pull yourselves up by your bootstraps and just be thankful. And instead, I love what what he says towards the end, what Jesus says to the man, stand up and go.

Shannon Popkin (35:47) Yeah.

Allison Brost (35:59) your faith has healed you or saved you. Some translations actually say made you whole. And I love that because I think again, going back to that point of if we just had a world that was free of suffering and brokenness, would we be fine? But God’s actually saying, even if you had all those things and you were not thankful, you’re not whole. Without Thanksgiving, you’re not

you’re not well and you’re not fully healed. There’s more than just a physical healing going on here. There’s a spiritual healing.

Shannon Popkin (36:33) good.

Yeah, and you know, the gratitude is turning our eyes to the one who has given us these gifts. And so if we had all the things that we long for, but we weren’t looking to him and gratitude, we wouldn’t be whole. We wouldn’t be healed. That’s so good, Allison. So, how can we be like the one? Right? How can we?

Allison Brost (36:40) Exactly.

Shannon Popkin (36:58) Be like this one who turned back and gave glory to God. How can we live like this story is true?

Allison Brost (37:04) Amen. think going back to that point of obedience, whether it’s, starting with scripture, the psalm says, give thanks to the Lord for he is good. It doesn’t tell me to feel thankful. It doesn’t tell me anything other than just to do it, to give thanks because God is good, not because my situation is good, not because I’m feeling a certain way, but just to do it in obedience. And so starting in that place of, OK, Lord,

I’m going to be obedient and I’m going to give you thanks, right? Whatever situation I’m going through because it’s an act of faith.

Shannon Popkin (37:39) Yeah,

it is. And I could imagine that up to that moment, as the lepers are walking toward the priests, their life did not feel good. And it didn’t seem as though God was good, you know, as their limbs are wasting away. You know, they’re like actually, they can’t feel anything. And they’re like that boy who turned the lock and finger just, right? I mean, this is a horror. And I can imagine

Allison Brost (38:02) Yes.

Shannon Popkin (38:07) looking at each other, this was their community, right? And looking at each other, saying God is good would feel disingenuous. this could, and we can feel that way too, Allison. I mean, you were a mom who lost your baby and it could feel like very disingenuous to say God is good and I’m gonna give him thanks. And yet this is part of our healing. It’s putting feet to our faith.

Allison Brost (38:13) Yeah.

Yeah.

for sure.

Shannon Popkin (38:34) is turning our attention to God and saying, you are good. Trusting that God is good and by faith declaring it in our gratitude, that is bringing wholeness, bringing health.

to our being even in the midst of suffering. Yeah, Are there any false narratives that this story corrects?

Allison Brost (38:50) So much so.

I think the biggest thing for me is that that space of if I’m healed and things are well in my earthly sense that I’m well and everything’s fine, right? We get that perspective of if my body’s whole, if my finances are well, if my husband, if our relationship is going smoothly, then everything is good in the world. And yet God is saying, no, there’s more and that’s me. And that’s what thankfulness points us to is that there’s

there’s this whole other realm of God and His goodness and coming to Him and thankfulness reminds us of that.

Shannon Popkin (39:32) That’s so good. Yeah. It’s like the false narrative is you can have the good life without God. And it’s just not possible because he is the giver of all good things. And so this story corrects it. Like you see these nine, they’re in pursuit of the good life. They got the gift. They don’t feel like the giver has anything to do with that.

Allison Brost (39:36) Yes.

Yes.

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Shannon Popkin (39:54) like whether we’re in the circumstance of the lepers before the healing or whether we’ve experienced some great gift from God in both situations by turning to Him and giving thanks, we’re living like it’s true that we need Him He is the source, know, this gratitude, it puts in perspective the whole story

Allison Brost (40:11) Yes.

Shannon Popkin (40:17) that one day all things will be made new and our gratitude now is looking forward to that.

Allison Brost (40:25) Amen. It’s our trust and our faith in who God is.

Shannon Popkin (40:29) Yeah, yeah, so good. Thank you so much for having this conversation with me, Allison. tell us where we can find your book. And the title again is Gratitude.

Allison Brost (40:40) It’s actually

of Growing in Thankfulness. Yes. Yeah, and it’s available now on Amazon or through The Good Book Company.

Shannon Popkin (40:43) Okay.

Allison Brost (40:48) So nice to talk with you. Thanks for having me.