Shannon Popkin (00:02) Well, we have Tammy D’Armes with us today. I’m so excited to be talking about the topic of abortion. It’s such a big topic. ⁓ Tammy is the director of Mission Advance at Passion Life, which is a global pro-life organization. ⁓ She spent 10 years as the CEO of a pregnancy center.

Tammy De Armas (00:26) So, thank you.

Shannon Popkin (00:28) And so we’re going to get to talk with her about her journey. But I also want you to know she’s been married for 37 years. Her husband and Tammy lived together in California. So Tammy, welcome to Live Like It’s True.

Tammy De Armas (00:45) Thank you so much, Shannon. It’s just a pleasure to be here.

Shannon Popkin (00:49) So great to be with you.

Tammy, do you guys have, how many children?

Tammy De Armas (00:56) We have three living children, three adult children, and then their spouses, and then four grandchildren.

Shannon Popkin (01:04) Okay, I love that. And you say four children because your story started with a baby that you aborted. You and your husband, I think that’s what makes you unique is that you together have this story. So take me back to you guys as teenagers and just tell me what your life was like back when you first met each other. Were you from Christian families?

Tammy De Armas (01:35) I was from a Christian family. I grew up in New York state and I am in Long Island and went upstate to go to college. ⁓ My dad had just recently passed away, so I wanted to stay close to my mom, And I met Pete my freshman year, we lived on the same floor. And ⁓ we started dating the second semester and ⁓ just

He was, he really was the man of my dreams. He, let me tell you, grew up, up in a Christian home, it was dysfunctional and that yes, everybody’s sitting in church, but then come home and it was a living hell

When my dad passed away ⁓ I had pleaded with the Lord to save my dad from alcoholism and he didn’t. He choked to death one night, right before I went to be a senior in high school.

And I thought, where are you, Lord? And I was young and immature. And so I went off and I met Pete and

he was the hockey player and ⁓ big name in the school. And it just, I fell in love with all that, that glory, And ⁓ that summer I came out to visit him. He’s from California and ended up getting pregnant out here. And when we got back to school, our sophomore year,

I was just devastated as to what to do, because I didn’t think I could go home and tell my mom. And he was like, I really want to make it in NHL. And I wanted to support that. I didn’t want to lose him. I can admit that. And I think that’s really hard for women to admit, because I was literally making a choice between that baby and him.

Shannon Popkin (03:32) Hmm.

Tammy De Armas (03:32) And After I had the abortion, my elbows ached for years until I went through post-abortion classes. And I know that was because I didn’t get to hold that baby. And after I went through my elbows, because just the idea of holding a baby and I…

Shannon Popkin (03:43) Your elbows oked.

Tammy De Armas (03:51) I really didn’t understand that. So anyway, we just decided that would be the best thing to do would be to, to abort the baby. And I often thought maybe it really wasn’t a baby, although we had a blood test I really was pregnant. wasn’t a false pregnancy.

So on September 14th, 1982, we drove over to Vermont because New York’s upstate New York, there wasn’t an abortion clinic around. Ironically, we would have had a driven three hours away. So we went over there and aborted that baby.

Shannon Popkin (04:27) Interesting.

Well, take me back to that car ride to Vermont with you and Pete. What was going through your minds? What were you saying to each other? What was the emotion in that car?

Tammy De Armas (04:36) Thank you.

Yeah, I continued to get us lost I remember saying turn here and I knew we had to turn somewhere else. you know, we never fought, we didn’t argue about this at all. But I was like, I really didn’t want to do this. and you had to go.

through a little bit of group therapy with the other girls that were aborting that morning too. And I didn’t want to be with anybody else. So I tried to miss that too. thought if I’m late, if I’m late for everything, then ⁓ maybe I would miss it all. But we ended up getting there and going in and ⁓ they, They wanted to give me something to relax me and I,

I felt like, I have to stay awake through this whole thing. have to, I’m not gonna check out now. and I didn’t wanna be separated from Pete, and they said he can’t be there. And so he just waited in the waiting room and

Shannon Popkin (05:37) Hmm,

Tammy De Armas (05:46) What I hear in my mind right now is like vacuums going, because I remember that noise.

Shannon Popkin (05:50) Really? So this

is deeply embedded. These memories, this moment, deeply embedded. I guess I think sometimes the message of abortion is it’s just a procedure. It’s not, you know, it’s just tissue. you know, why is everybody so upset about this? But

Tammy De Armas (05:59) Yeah

Shannon Popkin (06:10) How did you know that it wasn’t just tissue? like, why did your elbows ache? And why can you remember that worrying? how, was that idea that this was an important, like this baby was important? Did that come from church or your family or where did that idea come from?

Tammy De Armas (06:25) Yeah.

O is hugely important because my whole life I always wanted to be a mama. Even when I was a little girl, that was just part of me. I babysat, I love babies. I wanted to be a mom. I knew I was pregnant because my breasts hurt and I didn’t feel good.

so I knew 100 % that I was pregnant. I thought if I left the school, but I didn’t want to go home to my mom. couldn’t have gone and told her after my dad had just died that now I was pregnant. My sister had already done that.

And thank goodness we have my nephew. ⁓ But I didn’t want to do that. I just wanted it to go away. I didn’t want people to think I was one of those kind of girls. And here I am, one of those kind of girls. I was the good Christian girl and then I had kind of spiraled. And that’s going.

Shannon Popkin (07:27) Yeah.

Okay, explore that with

me. wanted to be, you didn’t want to be one of those kind of girls. Do you mean a girl who slept with someone before you were married?

Tammy De Armas (07:47) Well, I didn’t want to be the one that made the mistake. You know, ⁓ I’m coming from the high school where when someone got pregnant, they sent them away. You know, it was, it was back then. And, and so, I’m just 19, I just didn’t

Shannon Popkin (07:51) Okay.

Okay.

Tammy De Armas (08:07) I was like, I can’t do this. This isn’t what I had envisioned for myself. through. ⁓

Shannon Popkin (08:14) Yeah, this

disrupted your plans for sure. But yet, mean, I don’t hear in you a flippant like, I’m gonna do whatever I want to do. sometimes that is the demeanor that people approach abortion with. I hear in you like a deep sense of this is I am feeling all of this pressure from different perspectives, like my family, what my community would think of me, what my

boyfriend would think how this is going to disrupt his plans. I wonder if in some of that there is just this sense of judgment. Like people are weighing and measuring me and I have to be what they’re expecting of me. Maybe losing your dad too, maybe that gave you a different…

you know, place in the family. Any thoughts on that? Like how you were afraid of being judged?

Tammy De Armas (09:09) Yeah.

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. The judgment. ⁓ In fact, how many years later are we? ⁓ We were talking one night and discussing what are, what is something that we need to give up or something came up and I asked my husband, said, what is it about me that you think

I should give up.” And he said, ⁓ you need to stop pleasing people and please the Lord. you’ve always wanted to help others and be there for other people, but are you pleasing the Lord?

So I have to ⁓ watch and keep away from the idle of doing that. And that doesn’t work.

Shannon Popkin (10:10) Yeah, that’s

the definition of idolatry is putting some other person’s perspective over God’s God. above God is an idol. But I think it’s ironic that especially church girls, girls who grow up in the church and don’t want to be judged by the church, which is

following God’s laws, God’s ways, there’s this dichotomy then of like, want to please the church. I don’t want to be judged by the church. And so I’ll do this. I’ll have this abortion to avoid that judgment. And I’m less concerned about God’s judgment and how he looks at this, right?

Tammy De Armas (10:57) Absolutely. and even to the point, I distinctly remember the prayer that I prayed, Lord, I’m going to do something you don’t want me to do.

I know you don’t, but I’m your girl and I promise you I’ll be back. Just let me go through this and I promise you I’ll be back.” Because I knew in some sense he would forgive me and if I actually hindsight look back, I was still angry with him for everything that had happened. But I remember praying that and I think people probably think…

You’re crazy. Like you were bold right in his face to turn from him pretty much and tell him you’re turning, but you’d be back as if you were in charge. As if I was in control.

Shannon Popkin (11:31) No.

you

Yes, I know, Tammy, I’m laughing because I did the exact same thing at about the same age. I remember God ⁓ convicting me at camp the night before my senior year of high school. And I basically made a deal with God. said, you can have my life, but not till after high school. I get this last year for me and then I’ll be back, right? I’ll be back. And it was a miserable year. And you look back at this

Tammy De Armas (12:08) Exactly.

Shannon Popkin (12:13) moment in your life when you’re like, I’m going to do this thing that doesn’t please you and then I’ll be back and thinking I got to take care of me like like I need the senior year for my goals, my life and you were trying to avoid something that you thought was going to disrupt your life and your goals and in both instances we were girls.

Tammy De Armas (12:18) This

Thank

Shannon Popkin (12:34) who were putting off the Lordship of God and saying, know, I’m gonna handle it here for a moment to kind of keep things on the rails. But those were, that was the most destructive year of my life. And I imagine you look at this decision as one of the most destructive decisions, yes?

Tammy De Armas (12:38) Perfect.

Oh, absolutely. And for years after that, you know, the four years of college, we were obviously very different people than we are now getting out of college and just being called back to the Lord. And I remember when we went back for a reunion, my husband was told he was the most changed person.

from what he had gone to prep school. I thought, praise the Lord, because who we were then and where we are now, God has made the message for us to be able to speak.

Shannon Popkin (13:19) Okay.

Yeah,

yeah. Tell me about that progression. you had the abortion. Well, actually, let’s go back to, you weren’t allowed to be together during the abortion. He’s waiting for you in the waiting room. You get back into the car for this three hour drive. What was that like?

Tammy De Armas (13:54) ⁓ I, there was tears. I remember there was tears and, and, and sadness for both. know he was sad too. ⁓ the one thing I remember is that we had to get back to New York, get back to the school because he had hockey practice and he, couldn’t miss hockey practice. And, but he wanted to get me something to eat to make sure that I had eaten. So I.

still remember going to Dairy Queen and getting a blueberry shake. I still, when I see Dairy Queens, I think of my blueberry shake that I had then. I, you know, then go back to my dorm room and after practice he came back to see how I was and everything. And no, nobody knew it was just the two of us for the longest time.

Shannon Popkin (14:44) And I think sometimes the lie is nobody has to know. We’ll just go on and this will take care of it. We’ll move forward together. Was there a change in, I know there was a change in you after this, but was there a change in your relationship with Pete?

Tammy De Armas (14:49) Thank

no, I, don’t, I, I, like, I don’t ever remember us ever really arguing about it. He’s, he’s such a kind and gentle man. ⁓ like we, if Tammy needs to talk, we talk ad nauseum over, hey, who’s been doing this for this long. He, and he would listen and talk and, ⁓

But then we kind of moved on with our life. And ⁓ so it wasn’t really brought up again until we were married. even with the kids, having the kids, I don’t think we talked about it much. wasn’t until we were going to church here and somebody spoke about abortion at the church and that kind of opened up. ⁓

not a can of worms, was a blessing for me because I realized that I have been constantly thinking of myself ⁓ that I didn’t measure up with anybody in any of the churches because I had this in my past. And I look at my church and I see all these like holy women and then there was Tammy with this and so that was difficult for me.

Shannon Popkin (16:30) Yeah. So you went on to live, you know, as believers in the church. Do you ever remember anyone talking about abortion around you?

Tammy De Armas (16:45) You know, I remember ⁓ through college people talking about abortion and me at that point agreeing, because I had to agree. I had to agree that this was the right thing to do. ⁓ Even though I think I buried that deep, deep hurt. this, because it comes to be, you have to be responsible. And ⁓ like I’ve shared in my story that was written,

Shannon Popkin (17:06) Okay.

Tammy De Armas (17:15) ⁓ when the, they were talking to me at Planned Parenthood and it was, ⁓ not do this before it becomes a baby, but when the time is right, you can have a baby. And I kept on thinking that I can grasp that responsible thing. I can grasp that. You know,

when the time is right, we will have babies, because we will be getting married. There’s no way we’re not getting married now. that was, so that was kind of my mantra to go on. And again, it’s taking God out of it. And I’m gonna move forward in this.

Shannon Popkin (17:59) Well, it’s like, I feel like I have good judgment in this moment, right? It’s, I am seeing I need to be responsible. We’re going to have more children. This is like, this is just disruptive. And so I’m going to course correct here, but the problem, I think it goes back to the Garden of Eden. ⁓ Eve thought when she took that fruit, her eyes were going to be opened. And yet this is the time when we lost our spiritual insight.

Tammy De Armas (18:24) Mm-hmm.

Thanks.

Shannon Popkin (18:28) now look at things that God says are good and they don’t look good to us, you know, like living through an unwanted pregnancy. We look at things that God says are evil and they don’t look evil to us, like abortion, you ⁓ know. When we count on our own good judgment, we can really have a skewed perspective. And so I think

I think it’s helpful to just recognize both when we’re looking at other people who fall into sin and when we’re looking at our own selves falling into sin. It’s helpful to recognize how easy it is to fall into a skewed perspective on right and wrong, good and evil. I mean, look at Eve’s first child is a murderer, right?

Tammy De Armas (19:15) Thank

Shannon Popkin (19:24) and he looked at what God said was evil, but to him, it didn’t look evil. And I mean, they didn’t have the law the way that we did. They didn’t have the Bible. ⁓ I mean, that’s the first generation. And so every evil thing that anyone in this whole world has committed starts with us looking at something that God says is bad, but it looks good to us. And so,

Tammy De Armas (19:41) Mm-hmm.

Thanks.

Shannon Popkin (19:54) As you’re counseling

girls that are facing just an awful moment in their lives, they’re an unwanted pregnancy where everything feels like it’s out of their control, how do you help them to lift their eyes beyond what is their seemingly good judgment in this moment?

Tammy De Armas (20:04) Thank

Well, at this point, I’m out of the pregnancy center world and doing mission advancement. But when I was the director at the pregnancy center, I had an incredible nursing staff and counseling group that would, patient advocates that would do a decision-making guide. They would sit down and discuss

how we make decisions and what’s really important to us. And when they would go through this guide, it was incredible because a woman would come in wanting an abortion, but when they work through how she makes decisions and what’s really important to her, all of a sudden the abortion was wrong. ⁓ the abortion was not what she wanted. ⁓

I think the culture has gone harder and harder, ⁓ sadly, but it was just fascinating for me to see that somebody taking the time to sit and talk to you, take the time to make the decision. ⁓ We’re here for you as good Samaritans, God’s word, that’s we’re gonna come alongside you and help you in areas. That’s what the church should be doing. These women need help.

⁓ clothing, places to live, diapers. And that’s what these, the pregnancy centers are just amazing what we have in the war in the U S and what they do for women. And so they sit there knee to knee and cry with them. They, they get it. Many of them are like me. We’ve, we’ve fallen on that battlefield and we’re here to tell you the lie is it’s not going to just go away. You’re not going to get up because the enemy

Shannon Popkin (21:54) Yeah.

Tammy De Armas (22:13) usually hits you from, first of all, the abortionist is painted as come to me all who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest. So that lie, once it’s done, they’re in the parking lot of the abortion clinic, they’re already feeling that condemnation, because it’s like, what have I done? And it so doesn’t go away. I mean, not everybody, I remember dates, so I’m kind of brain mannish in that.

Shannon Popkin (22:22) you

Tammy De Armas (22:40) I know that date, I know that time. I have a wheel, you know, I ran a pregnancy center, so I have the conception wheel. It was always set from the date of my conception to the date when that baby would have been born on my desk. Nobody knew that, but that was probably my penance, you know, I’m not even counting, but you know, to remember that.

Shannon Popkin (22:55) Hmm.

⁓ yeah. Yeah.

So when you, when you would talk with girls, what was the, you know, they’ve got these competing desires, you know, abortion would be one desire. What would be the other desire that would win out to help them see, know, they actually didn’t want an abortion.

Tammy De Armas (23:23) that they could do this. It’s not like they were gonna be a mother, they are a mother. that they could, that possibility of just could, of being able, there’s an opening that this might not look the way you think, but this could be a great blessing, a blessing in disguise. And I mean, we’re not gonna get into ⁓ rape.

Shannon Popkin (23:30) Hmm.

Tammy De Armas (23:51) stories right now either, but so many women that I met that had been raped, they’re holding their babies because they chose life for that baby. And it was the biggest blessing out of ⁓ a horrific act. So the idea that that baby is ultimately a blessing and that we could show them that and give them a baby shower and have them

There’s this idea that we have no choice. This is the only way out and Unfortunately that creates throughout our lifetime when we’re making decisions Quickly, this is the only way I can do this rather than taking a deep breath and go okay and not like Your prayer in mine saying okay Lord help me in this Help me in this I’ve made a terrible mistake, but you you haven’t given up on me. I gave up on myself

Shannon Popkin (24:43) Yeah.

Tammy De Armas (24:50) He didn’t give up on me.

Shannon Popkin (24:51) Mm-hmm, yeah, I love ⁓ the way that you said this isn’t a question of whether can I be a mother? I am a mother, right? And so there’s some truth in that, but I think sometimes we look at something like abortion, and that’s not the only sin that we do this with, but there is like this final judgment. Like it’s, you you’ve crossed this line, you are on the other side, ⁓ and there’s no life after this either.

Tammy De Armas (25:01) Thank you.

Shannon Popkin (25:20) both ways. Like if you have this baby, there’s like your life is over. You’ve crossed, you’ve, you’ve committed the unpardonable sin. For some girls, it’s like sleeping with my boyfriend before marriage. Like the horror of letting my loved ones know that that, I mean, this is going to reveal that I can’t, I cannot cross that barrier of them knowing this thing about me. And so I would rather do away with this baby than, than live that reality. The other one is

Tammy De Armas (25:48) Great.

Shannon Popkin (25:50) after I have had the abortion, I have committed the unpardonable sin of abortion. And so there’s this finality of judgment. And I think we catch that from each other. think there is like this, I was just actually today writing about the difference between disgust and contempt. Disgust like, mean, disgust is a healthy reaction to sin. It’s like this.

Tammy De Armas (26:03) Okay.

Shannon Popkin (26:19) this container of beans that I found in the back of my fridge and I opened the container and it’s like, ⁓ like the horrible disgust of that moment. I had a right reaction to those beans, know, throwing them in the garbage disposal. That was the right choice in that moment. Like to eat those beans would show like there’s something wrong with my nose, you know, I’m sick to be able to eat those beans. so like disgust is the correct response to sin. And we shouldn’t like get comfortable with.

Tammy De Armas (26:38) Nice.

Thank

Shannon Popkin (26:48) I

don’t think like my goal is not that someone would listen to this and get comfortable with abortion. Like that’s not what any of us want. But what we do is we take that right disgust and we impose it on an image bearer. We impose it on someone who is deeply loved by the father. And God never has contempt for people. Yes, he does have this right

Tammy De Armas (27:03) See you soon.

Hmm.

Shannon Popkin (27:17) loathing of sin and because it’s destructive, it destroys us, but he loves us. We are created in his image and God does not show contempt for us the way that people do. So, I mean, what I can remember people talking about abortion with just this, cannot, but like what in the world are they thinking? That sort of a mindset. And I just think we need to be a little careful.

Tammy De Armas (27:29) you.

Shannon Popkin (27:46) with the way that we talk about abortion because the statistics would show that in a room of 10 people, if they’re all of childbearing ages, what would it be?

Two

There’s probably two, two and a half of us who have had it.