Shannon Popkin (00:00.0) Lisa Appalo, welcome back to Live Like It’s True.

Lisa Appelo (00:05.826) Thank you, Shannon. I’m happy to be back with you.

Shannon Popkin (00:08.954) I didn’t even find your bio, which is so fun because it means that you are a friend that I already know. I don’t have to look up all the details about you. I’m so grateful for you. We first met when you interviewed last time and we talked about the widow of Zarephath, right? And Elijah, such a good conversation. We will link to it in case you weren’t here for that episode, but.

Lisa Appelo (00:28.077) Yes.

Shannon Popkin (00:35.522) Lisa, let me just tell what I know of you. Mother of seven, Mother of seven lost your husband unexpectedly how many years ago?

Lisa Appelo (00:40.344) Yes.

Lisa Appelo (00:45.55) It’s been 13 years. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (00:47.266) 13

Shannon Popkin (00:48.118) years and so now you have grandkids. How many grandkids?

Lisa Appelo (00:51.118) I do.

Lisa Appelo (00:53.418) I’m a 90 to 13 if you can believe it. We had a little baby boom. So they’re all little. There’s like one seven year old and a five year old and then they’re all just two, three babies.

Shannon Popkin (00:55.836) my goodness. that’s fantastic. So yeah. my goodness.

Shannon Popkin (01:05.708) Babies.

Shannon Popkin (01:07.36) That is just so fun. And you’re in Florida. Are all of your kids in Florida?

Lisa Appelo (01:11.922) Most of them. have one who’s in the Air Force and I have one who’s on the kind of West Coast, but the rest are here. Yeah. And one who’s a senior, she’s still at home.

Shannon Popkin (01:16.628) Okay, okay, well, exciting.

Shannon Popkin (01:20.681) Your last baby is graduating from high school. That’s exciting. So your first book was called Life Can Be Good Again, and you just talk us through working through grief. I mean, I have to say, I have recommended your Instagram page to so many people.

Lisa Appelo (01:22.23) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (01:43.49) It’s like when someone’s going through grief, when they’re going through loss, I feel like what you offer is not like the superficial coddling, like the little catchphrase-y kinds of things, but you offer really helpful and genuine insight. Is that how you would describe what you’re trying to do on Instagram? How would you put it?

Lisa Appelo (02:07.692) Yes, it’s interesting that you see it that way. I appreciate that. Because I have a little note to myself before I post to be real, to be authentic and to point to biblical hope, because that’s it, isn’t it? I mean, there is some comfort knowing that what we are experiencing is like normal, like, I’m not doing this wrong. And so connecting with people that way to say like, if you were feeling this,

Shannon Popkin (02:19.969) Yeah.

Lisa Appelo (02:34.06) you know, this is part of grief or you may experience this, but then always not just sitting in that because there, God, I remember somebody saying to me, God has so much for you. I thought, how can you say that? How, how do you know that? But, this far out, and of course it didn’t take me long to see that God did have more for me and that if I would do the hard work of grief, that I would smile again, that I would find that life could be good again.

Shannon Popkin (02:35.873) Yeah.

Lisa Appelo (03:03.758) And of course I wanted that for my kids, but I wanted that for me as well.

Shannon Popkin (03:07.487) Yeah, so 13 years later, would you say life is good again? Yeah.

Lisa Appelo (03:10.574) I would, know,

Lisa Appelo (03:14.977) life is not perfect. Life is never perfect. and there are days, there are days where I think I wouldn’t even be going through this situation if you were here. but all of that is under the good hand of God and he has been so faithful and practically, giving me wisdom, getting me guidance.

Lisa Appelo (03:39.15) just in so many ways. so yes, most days, most days I wake up and I’m excited for the day. have plans. I have a new vision. I have a ministry.

Shannon Popkin (03:51.788) That’s so good. Well, Lisa, we’re in this series for the judged and the judgy. How has that, I’m just curious, like this is kind of unrelated to the Bible passage we’re gonna look at, but like, how does a widow sometimes feel judged or be tempted to be judgy toward others? How has that overlapped your story?

Lisa Appelo (04:12.203) Mm-hmm.

Lisa Appelo (04:16.812) That’s a great question. And I think just even that label widow, we all conjure up a picture of what the widow looks like. And well, you know, I can tell you so many widows that I meet are like, I literally want that label, even though it’s a beloved label in the Bible. Whenever God talks about the widow or uses the widow as an illustration, he loves her.

Shannon Popkin (04:26.239) Not like you, probably.

Shannon Popkin (04:34.593) Hmm.

Lisa Appelo (04:44.576) and protects her and does so much for her. But two, I think as a single mom, that is actually where I felt that I wanted to make sure people knew at first. I was like, I want to make sure people know that I’m a single mom because I’m a widow. Because I had sat under sermons. had, I had heard the statistics from the pulpit. had, you know, and you know, I knew that there were single mom Sunday school classes and

Lisa Appelo (05:14.57) Again, there’s a picture that comes with that of why that mom is a single mom. And I very quickly realized that that was in my own heart, that that was some sin that I needed to just let God, you know, that if somebody thought something wrong, that that was between them and God. So, and yeah, being misjudged as a single mom.

Shannon Popkin (05:34.806) being misjudged, right? Misjudged.

Shannon Popkin (05:39.188) But my heart goes out for the one who there was a divorce and it was her fault. You know what I mean? Like she too can feel misjudged and want to give her defense for why this happened and want everyone to know that. And so I think for all of us, whatever situation we find ourselves in,

Lisa Appelo (05:43.96) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (06:02.973) There’s a temptation to defend against being misjudged, right? To rise up and have this justice centered rather than letting God be our defense and entrust ourselves to Him the way Jesus did. mean, Jesus also was misjudged. He was killed on a cross, right? And he trusted the Father with that. So, I mean, I don’t think any of us have come close to feeling crucified, right? And so that it’s…

Lisa Appelo (06:07.438) Yeah.

Lisa Appelo (06:13.25) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (06:32.563) It’s, I think it’s, I think I’m gonna cut that part out, sorry. Anyway, well, I’m thinking as you’re talking though about even a label that you would want to explain so that you’re not misjudged, we’re gonna talk about a woman who had a title, a label, she was a prostitute. And the image that conjures up,

Lisa Appelo (06:38.638) That’s all right.

Shannon Popkin (07:02.279) you know, any thoughts on that Lisa? Like this woman Rahab, what did it mean? And like the Bible calls her a prostitute more like even after she’s part of God’s people. I find that interesting.

Lisa Appelo (07:17.58) Yeah. You know, I have a friend who started a ministry. Her kids were grown and she began a ministry to go into strip clubs and bring the church into strip clubs. Really, they just, they just love on these women and the ultimate desire is to establish a relationship with them and to, for when they want to get out, that they will have somebody who will say, this is the way out and we have something for you.

Lisa Appelo (07:46.85) and then of course to introduce them to Jesus, and to the gospel. But they come in and they bring food. They’re known as the church ladies. And so when I was studying this, to teach it years ago, I called her and I said, tell me about the women who are in this industry. And she completely changed my, my presumptions. She said they are broken. They are so broken and they’ve been so wounded for so long. And so this

Lisa Appelo (08:16.246) I would never presume to speak for somebody, but this is what she told me of her experience. And she said, they’re just so broken and they’ve been so wounded that really being in this industry of a strip club is not that far a stretch for them. It’s not as shocking for them as it would be for us. And so to see them not as these women who were doing something so, so bad and doing something like…

Lisa Appelo (08:42.734) You know, I just would try to like drive around those places when I had kids. mean, I live in a big city. We have those places all over our city. And, um, instead of seeing them as like them doing that thing to see them in the light of just a wounded, broken soul who had no idea of the love of Christ that was there

Shannon Popkin (09:09.089) Wow, that’s powerful, isn’t it? And I think that love and mercy penetrates like nothing else, right? I think so often when we’re talking about judging and feeling judged, we’re all about what’s right and what’s wrong. And all of us are on the wrong side of God’s gavel. Like we are all facing Him as our judge and as the accused, right? We are wrong.

Lisa Appelo (09:11.714) Mm-hmm.

Lisa Appelo (09:27.15) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (09:39.094) And there’s none of us who would stand before God and be innocent. And so like to try and turn the gavel, you know, put it in our hands and put somebody else on the other side of it is really unhelpful for us and unhelpful for them. And I think what helps most is for us to unify into the same category of sinful sinner, right? And recognize that he is alone, alone is the righteous one. But I think it’s so interesting

Shannon Popkin (10:08.179) in this story about a prostitute that she’s the one who gets rescued. Like I really see this as a rescue story. In chapter one of the Judge and the Judgy, you know, I’m working on this book right now and so you’re helping me out Lisa by talking through these stories and deciding what will get put in this book. But chapter one we talked about Noah and the flood and you know, here’s another story of God’s judgment and we come to know him as the judge who

Lisa Appelo (10:17.87) Mm.

Shannon Popkin (10:37.931) You know, he’s not a judge who you have to present witness information or what do they call that stuff in court? Testimony or evidence, there you go. Yeah, exactly.

Lisa Appelo (10:50.53) Testimony? Evidence? Sorry. I was a lawyer

Lisa Appelo (10:55.966) back in the day.

Shannon Popkin (10:56.661) that’s right. That’s right. You should know. So evidence.

Shannon Popkin (11:00.753) Yeah, it’s not he’s not the judge that you would present evidence to. He already has all the evidence. His eyes have seen everything and everyone and everything is laid bare before him. And he is presented as the judge and Noah’s flood. And so everyone falls under his judgment under this flood. And yet his mercy rises above his judgment in this arc. You know, there’s this

Lisa Appelo (11:05.719) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (11:24.747) this beautiful picture, this beautiful contrast between here are the ones that God sets his mercy on. And the story moves forward with them. Well, here we are in Joshua chapter two, hundreds of years later, and we’ve got these people who are defying God again. The people of Jericho are not, well, let’s, okay. When we,

Shannon Popkin (11:52.758) talk about these stories of judgment, either the flood or Jericho, the story of Joshua, I’m sorry, the story of Joshua is of this city that God is gonna march his people in there and take it over. help me with what a person outside the faith thinks of that. How do they respond to that, Lisa? Like I’m sure you have interacted with those who…

Lisa Appelo (12:20.118) Mmm.

Shannon Popkin (12:21.351) don’t think that’s a very good picture of God.

Lisa Appelo (12:24.172) Mm-hmm.

Lisa Appelo (12:25.856) I am sure that they see God of the Old Testament, this is what we hear, God of the Old Testament being different than God of the New Testament, but he is the same God. He is the same God and everybody at all times. It was interesting when I began to read the Bible all the way through and to study with my kids as homeschoolers, I saw how often God made himself known, revealed himself to everybody, to all these people. Even Rahab says, we heard about

Lisa Appelo (12:55.88) you. We heard what you did when you part of the Red Sea. We heard what you did to those other kings. We know you’re coming and instead of doing what she did, which is save me, rescue me. I want to be under your God. I recognize that your God is the God. Instead of doing that, they shut themselves in and thought that they could save themselves and that is the story of mankind, isn’t it?

Lisa Appelo (13:23.18) Those who say, I can make my own way and I can save myself and I don’t like what you’re doing God and I will not come under you. And those that say, I recognize even though I may not understand all of your ways that you are greater and great and I want to come under you and having come under him, she experiences love she never would have experienced otherwise.

Shannon Popkin (13:43.681) greater and greater.

Shannon Popkin (13:47.444) It’s so

Shannon Popkin (13:48.044) good. It’s so good. Yeah. Okay. So that’s the story we’re going to unpack in this conversation. I’m so excited. But okay, I just want to back up and think about these spies going into this city. Okay. So if you know about the history of God’s people, he chose Abraham and Sarah and Genesis 12. He promises them, I’m going to make of you a great nation. I’m going to give you this promised land.

Shannon Popkin (14:13.139) And so the first part has come true. They are now a nation. know, God turned this childless couple into a nation that’s probably millions of people at this point. And he rescued them from slavery in Egypt and brought them through the wilderness. And now he’s about to bring them into the promised land. I’ve compared this to like carrying them over the threshold, right? So it’s like bringing his bride into the promised land. It’s beautiful.

Shannon Popkin (14:42.641) beautiful time. So Joshua is now the leader of God’s people. Moses led them out of slavery. Joshua is about to lead them into the promised land and Joshua sends in two spies to scope out Jericho. God’s like, know, you’re going to take this city. This is promised to you. And so he sends these two spies. Now, Lisa, do you think you’d make a very good spy?

Lisa Appelo (15:09.23) I would

Lisa Appelo (15:10.555) not.

Shannon Popkin (15:13.594) Why do you say that?

Lisa Appelo (15:13.678) And I wonder, yeah.

Lisa Appelo (15:14.532)

Lisa Appelo (15:17.55) I know, I just, I can’t imagine, you I probably would be scared. First of all, I’d be too scared of going in, you know, I’d be like, I’m going to get caught. I will get caught. That’s always been me. So hats off. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (15:27.968) You

Shannon Popkin (15:30.894) and not have your wits about you as a spy. Well,

Shannon Popkin (15:35.237) my husband and I had an opportunity to go undercover once. It didn’t go very well. We were supposed to, there was this company that our friend owned that like you would write little reports on how stores or restaurants or hotels were doing. And so you would just kind of go in undercover like as if you were just a normal customer.

Shannon Popkin (15:58.018) And one of the places that we had to go was this restaurant nearby, but we were supposed to, it was like open all night or I don’t know if it was all night, but it was, it was open late. And so we were supposed to go there between like, I think it was like 11 PM and 3 AM. And so we went at 11, we’re just like so tired, you know? So the report that came back was,

Shannon Popkin (16:25.121) you need to send some different undercover people because we immediately knew this was not our crowd. So I don’t know what my husband and I did. Perhaps we were just tired and like didn’t want to be there. But somehow immediately when we walked through those doors, they knew that we were the secret shoppers and didn’t go very well. It didn’t serve the purpose. Well, that’s kind of the story of these two spies that Joshua sends into Jericho. They are immediately discovered.

Lisa Appelo (16:36.686) you

Lisa Appelo (16:44.396) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (16:53.409) And the king is sent word, okay, know, two Israelite spies are here. And he finds, he’s told immediately, it sounds to me like they just have arrived in Jericho and are finding a place to stay. And already when they check into this hotel, the king is alerted, okay, here’s where they’re staying and sends guards. Is that how it reads to you, Lisa?

Lisa Appelo (17:16.426) Yeah,

Lisa Appelo (17:16.846) I mean we don’t know the time frame but it wasn’t even it wasn’t a whole day. We know that so

Shannon Popkin (17:21.885) Yeah, it wasn’t even a whole day.

Shannon Popkin (17:24.446) So I don’t know, these guys just aren’t probably, you know, too skilled or trained in clandestine operations. Exactly. Yeah, these are these are well, I was thinking about that. These are not the these are not escaped slaves because but they’re the children of because, you know, they’ve sent the last time when Joshua was sent into the promised land.

Lisa Appelo (17:31.234) I mean, they’ve been in the wilderness for 40 years, so.

Lisa Appelo (17:42.112) Right.

Shannon Popkin (17:49.57) He was one of two who said, yes, let’s go. It’s a great land. Look at the fruit. Let’s take it. And the other 10 were like, no, these people are like giants. We’re too scared. And so I think it’s interesting that Joshua, now that he’s in charge, he’s one of two who get to go into the land. Everybody else has to die, which I mean, I don’t know how that happened.

Shannon Popkin (18:15.713) there were probably, there were a lot of funerals in those 40 years. Like how many people would have to die every day? If you don’t know that story, I think it’s in Numbers chapter 12 through 14. I’ll put it in our show notes, because I’m not positive on that. But yeah, it’s a whole story of how God brought them to the threshold and they were too afraid to go in. He was gonna give it to them. And so he sent them wandering for 40 years. So.

Shannon Popkin (18:44.481) Joshua’s like, all right, we’re gonna do this differently. We’re not sending in 12, I’m sending in two. This also goes badly. let’s see, Lisa, could you read Joshua two? Let’s do verses one through, I didn’t, I didn’t pre-determine.

Lisa Appelo (18:51.502) Thank

Shannon Popkin (19:06.037) Let’s do one through seven. And which translation are you using?

Lisa Appelo (19:08.024) Sure.

Lisa Appelo (19:09.995) I have got, I believe it’s New King James. New King James. So now Joshua the son of Nun sent out two men from the Acacia Grove to spy secretly saying, go view the land, especially Jericho. So they went and came to the house of a harlot named Rehab and lodged there. And it was told the king of Jericho saying, behold, men have come here tonight from the children of Israel to search out the country. So you’re right, not much time.

Shannon Popkin (19:12.619) Okay.

Lisa Appelo (19:33.848) So the king of Jericho sent to Rahab saying, bring out the men who have come to you, who have entered your house, for they have come to search out all the country. Then the woman took the two men and hid them. So she said, yes, the men came to me, but I did not know where they were from. And it happened as the gate was being shut when it was dark that the men went out. Where the men went, I do not know. Pursue them quickly, for you may overtake them. But she had brought them up to the roof and hidden them with the stalks of flax which she had laid in order on the roof.

Lisa Appelo (20:04.152) Did you want me to do seven? Sorry. Then the men pursued them by the road to the Jordan to the Fords. And as soon as those who pursued them had gone out, they shut the gate.

Shannon Popkin (20:05.665) sure.

Shannon Popkin (20:13.085) Okay, so what is surprising here in this story, Lisa?

Lisa Appelo (20:18.806) Okay. So one that they came to a harlot that they would come to a harlot. I that’s the first thing that jumps out at us, right? That of all the people, I mean, why did they not just like walk into the town and then walk out? You know, why did they choose to actually go into a home? and of all the homes, the home of a woman and the home of a harlot. So that’s first.

Lisa Appelo (20:47.586) First surprising thing, the second is I think that the thing that all the kids ask when you teach this to Sunday school is, why did she lie? But the fact that they went in to and sought refuge from a harlot

Shannon Popkin (21:02.762) Yeah.

Lisa Appelo (21:03.14) and that she protected them, that might be surprising too. That instead of giving them up, she protected them.

Shannon Popkin (21:06.645) Well, I-

Shannon Popkin (21:10.421) Yeah, to me, that’s the most surprising thing at first. When you think of her as, I mean, she is born and bred Jericho citizen and has no reason to aid in a bed. Like she’s really, she’s committing treason here, right? Would this be, this would be considered treason against her country and she has absolutely no reason to do so, at least as far as we’ve seen so far in the story. And so,

Lisa Appelo (21:28.962) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (21:39.606) Why would she side with them? And okay, as far as them choosing to stay at, know, probably like a hotel kind of thing, you know, like, obviously you weren’t there just for a room, but maybe they were trying to blend in. Maybe they’re like, well, this is, I mean, what we know about the city of Jericho is it was really evil. Like the Canaanites were very evil. There are lists in,

Shannon Popkin (22:08.193) Leviticus of don’t do this, don’t do that, don’t do this, like child sacrifice, don’t do that. This is what the Canaanites do. Bestiality, don’t do that. That’s what the Canaanites do. mean, their level of, it’s sort of like this corruption that has just sort of taken this city. And so if you were gonna blend in, you you’re a spy and you want to blend in, this is what people did in Jericho.

Shannon Popkin (22:34.559) this is why you would come. And especially if you were an outsider, maybe, I don’t know. But I could imagine that. Of course, that’s all based on speculation, but it is interesting that they end up at her doorstep. And I think if you turn the story around, because we know the end of the story is that she’s going to be rescued, right?

Shannon Popkin (22:58.645) that’s, mean, spoiler alert, spoiler alert, that’s what’s gonna happen. That’s where the story is going. And if you turn this around and recognize, like these spies, they’re not actually going to take back any information that’s helpful, right? It’s a total failed mission. They don’t get any information. They are found out immediately. But what does happen is this woman is rescued. And so like, that’s why I say, I don’t think this is a spy mission. I think it’s a rescue mission. And I think it’s,

Lisa Appelo (23:00.632) Mm-hmm.

Lisa Appelo (23:27.068) Mmm, I love that.

Shannon Popkin (23:28.501) the Lord that sent them to her door. And like you said earlier, our God, he sees those who are like, hey, save me. The rest of Jericho is boarding up, you know, we’re gonna see later in chapter six, like the gate of Jericho is boarded, like nobody’s entering, nobody’s leaving, they are in full defense mode. But Rahab has a completely different mindset. She’s not in defense mode.

Lisa Appelo (23:38.838) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (23:57.066) She’s in like rescue me, save me and committing treason. So, but let’s talk about her lying here a second. You know, we know this is one of the 10 commandments. And so what do you think about that?

Lisa Appelo (24:13.262) so the law is that was given to us to point us to God and to point us to right living. But God is always over the law. and so there are times where, know, I think of my husband, my late husband’s family, his father was put in a concentration camp in Holland and, came to know Christ through Cory Tim Boone after.

Lisa Appelo (24:43.106) the war. She had a halfway house for Hollanders who had been in concentration camps. He was not Jewish. He was a Dutch reformed, but he did come to know Christ there and became a missionary. So he, you know, when you look at Corrie ten Boom and her family, they hid Jews and they lied when the people would come into the house to search. They didn’t give them away. They didn’t say, look here.

Shannon Popkin (24:43.315) No way.

Shannon Popkin (25:03.723) Right.

Lisa Appelo (25:09.87) We’ve got, we’ve made this panel, you know, put up this panel here and those Jews who were hidden were saved. And so there are, we are not to lie, but I think when God is talking about that, he’s talking about lies that destroy and that lies are against him. And this was an act where she was saving lives and she was, she was

Shannon Popkin (25:39.187) was siding with God, right? Yeah, so…

Lisa Appelo (25:40.792) She was siding with God. Yeah. So she

Lisa Appelo (25:42.984) wasn’t like so bound. It’s like when he says, if your horse falls in a ditch on a Sunday, are you not going to, is it a horse? Is it ox? Cause I, somebody say my ox is in a ditch this Sunday. If your ox falls in a ditch, you’re not just going to stick to the law so much. You say, I’m not going to rescue that ox. You rescue that ox. And here she rescued these two men.

Shannon Popkin (25:49.003) Hmm. Yeah, yeah, an axe, Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (25:59.404) Right, right.

Shannon Popkin (26:03.476) Yeah, no, that’s really good. It’s like the heart of the law. The heart of the law is to honor God and to honor the image bearers, right? And if she chose not to lie, these two would be given up and they would certainly have been killed, right? So she’s not only saving their lives, but she’s…

Shannon Popkin (26:28.414) She’s, she’s.

Shannon Popkin (26:32.513) Yeah, she’s choosing to side in that moment with God and his people. And so I think it’s interesting too to look at if you contrast Joshua 2 with, I think it’s 7, let’s see. Well, it’s 7 with the story of Achan because Achan did the same thing. He hid something.

Lisa Appelo (26:52.664) Six where she asks. Okay, yeah.

Lisa Appelo (27:01.985) Okay.

Shannon Popkin (27:02.281) and he lied

Shannon Popkin (27:02.821) about it. And there was a completely different outcome for him and his family. Rahab and her family were saved. Akin and his family were destroyed. And they both did the same thing. And so you look at that and you’re like, okay, that’s really interesting. What does that tell me about lying? You know, in one instance, it was totally bad and wrong. In another instance, it was totally good and celebrated. And so what’s the difference? Well, the difference is, are you siding with God or are you siding against him?

Shannon Popkin (27:31.926) right, because Aiken was clearly disobeying what God had commanded. He took some of the gold and silver, I think, and clothing that he had found in Jericho, and instead of destroying it, they were commanded to commit it all to destruction. And instead of doing that, he hid it for himself. and there were great consequences. But yeah, I think that’s an interesting story to contrast with this one.

Lisa Appelo (27:32.269) Mm-hmm.

Lisa Appelo (27:47.693) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (28:01.503) Right? And think about lying. But I love what you…

Lisa Appelo (28:03.03) Yeah, for sure. And it doesn’t

Lisa Appelo (28:05.871) give us a carte blanche, but there are times where, you know, if I say to my daughter, do you like this? Do you like my new hairdo? You know, I want her to say, Mom, you look so great, even if she doesn’t really actually think it, right? Because that is love. it’s, and this was obviously more consequential, but the law was there to serve us and to point out our sin and our wrongdoing and to point us to Christ.

Shannon Popkin (28:16.197) huh.

Shannon Popkin (28:31.999) Yeah. But I mean, it’s very interesting that this woman would, she’s a prostitute. So it’s like, okay, Lisa, there’s this verse that I love in second Chronicles. I think it’s 16 nine. It says, the eyes of the Lord search across the face of the earth, looking for those that he can commit himself to strongly support. And I think of that verse in…

Shannon Popkin (28:58.451) in this context and I wasn’t expecting that his eyes are searching for the one he can strongly support and it’s a prostitute, right? I’m thinking, it’s that righteous person who stands out in the crowd. Rahab, doesn’t yet stand out. It’s quite interesting. The only way she stands out is by wanting to be rescued. Do you see anything interesting in that?

Lisa Appelo (29:20.75) Yeah, but he saw her heart. He saw her heart. And she has a great, she’s going to end up having an incredible legacy. You know, he’s going to use her not just in this instance, but she’s going to have a long legacy in the Lord. So she’s going to have a long life of trusting him and walking with him.

Shannon Popkin (29:33.878) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (29:36.895) Yeah, it’s so true.

Shannon Popkin (29:42.53) It’s so true.

Shannon Popkin (29:44.191) I bet they had fun telling this story, you know, because these two spies are gonna be the ones who go and rescue her after they take the city. know, like, I just bet, you know, people for decades later really tell the story of when, you know, when the spies showed up to Rahab’s house. So they show up, it’s nightfall, she…

Lisa Appelo (29:49.038) you

Lisa Appelo (29:54.391) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (30:11.239) she puts them on the roof and the guards come and and I love this part too chase after them quickly and you can catch up with them so she gives misinformation and then they they skip out of town just as the gate is is closing which I think that’s you know that’s just a storytelling kind of thing like they just got out and the gate closes so so what we see is these two spies are shut into the city they can’t get out and plus they’re probably not going to be able to go out that gate

Lisa Appelo (30:19.573) hahahaha

Shannon Popkin (30:40.385) they’ve already been found out. And so there’s not a way out for them. They’re going to have to come up with something else. At this point, they know that the king is on to them. Oh, what are they going to do? And also these ones deployed to find them can’t get back in. They’re going to be out there during the night. And so we’ve got a situation where they’re on the roof of this woman’s house for the night.

Shannon Popkin (31:07.937) And so, okay, so let’s look at the next part of the story. It’s verses eight through 13. Could you read that?

Lisa Appelo (31:41.75) And as soon as we heard these things, our hearts melted. Neither did there remain any more courage in anyone because of you. For the Lord your God, he is God in heaven above and on earth beneath. Now, therefore, I beg you, swear to me by the Lord, since I have shown you kindness, that you also will show kindness to my father’s house and give me a true token and spare my father, my mother, my brothers, my sisters, and all that they have and deliver our lives from death.

Shannon Popkin (32:12.523) You know what, Katie cut this part, but Lisa, I’m looking at the time and realizing, I didn’t realize 30 minutes have gone by so far. let’s go ahead. I know, let’s go ahead and cap off that first conversation. then, but we will use the clip. I won’t have you reread those verses. So I’m gonna follow up. Like I think what I was just saying was.

Lisa Appelo (32:21.888) I know we’ve been going.

Lisa Appelo (32:26.242) Okay.

Lisa Appelo (32:30.808) Okay.

Shannon Popkin (32:37.515) Hmm.

Lisa Appelo (32:40.43) that they’ve been shut into the city.

Shannon Popkin (32:41.761) Yeah, they’ve

Shannon Popkin (32:42.501) been shut into the city. Okay, so let me, and then I won’t, I won’t, I’ll find a place to cut that out. Or actually, let me just repair that right now. So, we have these two men who have come to her house and they are, it’s just in the nick of time. You know, she sends these guards out with misinformation. The gate is closed.

Lisa Appelo (32:49.773) Okay.

Shannon Popkin (33:06.549) They’re on the inside and they’re going to need a way to escape. So we’re going to kind of pause the story there. But I want us to think through, of the things that we’ve talked about. Are there any false narratives that this story corrects?

Lisa Appelo (33:21.818) I do. Yes, there are false narratives and that is that, and we probably haven’t gotten far enough into it to see it fully fleshed out. But, you know, going back to the first, my first, just telling you about my friend who goes into the clubs and what those women are like, and for any of us, for any of us who have, for all of us, we can feel disqualified. We can think.

Lisa Appelo (33:50.198) Either it’s something I did before I was saved or even something I did after I was saved. And we just feel so disqualified from God ever using us. And that is a lie straight from the enemy. He would love to keep us in that place of feeling not just the shame, but the, will never be able to be used because look who I am and look what I’ve done. And we’re going to see that.

Lisa Appelo (34:18.062) whole thing just be blown up that whole narrative that and I wonder I wonder if she ever thought that like who I wonder if in fear and trembling she left these men into her home and and and you know ask them to save her and her family I you know wondering would God ever do that with this great God ever do that for me and for my family knowing who I am but it’s a false narrative because

Lisa Appelo (34:47.576) course, all of us are disqualified and it’s only through the righteousness of Christ that he uses us and he can use us. So there have been so many times, I’m sorry, there have been so many times in my life where I’ve had to even now, this many years as I’ve walked with God, where I’ve had to say, you know what? Yes, I didn’t handle that with my kids right. And yes, I would be so ashamed if people actually saw who I was in that and how I acted in that moment.

Shannon Popkin (34:56.437) Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa Appelo (35:17.346) But Lord, that does not disqualify me. I need to repent and I need to come before you and please change me. And also, please use me.

Shannon Popkin (35:25.909) Yeah, it’s so true. I love actually the fact that Rahab’s, like it talks about her. I’m just looking it up on my phone here. It says in chapter six, after the fact, Joshua spared Rahab the prostitute. She’s still known as the prostitute. I just, find that really interesting.

It’s like her identity, I think God wants us to know that there isn’t a certain type of person that is included in his people. It’s any type of person can be, or any person who has sinned in any way.

Lisa Appelo (36:21.294) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (36:24.939) who can be included in the people of God. And that is Rahab’s story. So I think you’re exactly right. The false narrative that I have to get myself all cleaned up before I can come to church, before I can cry out to God for His mercy, that is a false narrative. None of us can clean ourselves up. Like that’s actually the whole point is we can’t. And God knows that. I was actually just dialing, or,

Shannon Popkin (36:51.539) responding to a man on Instagram yesterday, we were kind of going back and forth. And I had brought up the story of Noah and the flood. he was saying, yeah, you you Christians, you like, you’re so judgy, judgy. And you feel like you’re the superior one on the ark. you’re looking out, like you tell your kids this, because I had said,

Lisa Appelo (37:07.158) Mm.

Shannon Popkin (37:14.273) He thought of the Ark story as like a good bedtime story and I’m like, no, it’s a terrible bedtime story. I would never want to tell my children that story at bedtime. It’s a story of judgment and death. It’s horrible. And I said the only redeeming part of it is that just like those people were in the Ark and they were safe, we are in Christ and we’re saved.

Lisa Appelo (37:17.869) Mm.

Shannon Popkin (37:35.11) And so his response to that was, yeah, you’re in Christ and you look at everybody else from your superior place and say, tsk, tsk, look at you, all you bad people, we’re the good people and we’re trying to save all of you sinners. And I said, my goodness, no. I said, I have done horrible things. I have been an angry,

Shannon Popkin (38:01.505) wife and mom, I have been selfish and I’ve lied and I’ve been, you know, had all of the focus on myself. so like in all of these ways, I’ve not saved myself. I have put myself under, it’s humbling to recognize that my sin is that bad that I deserved God’s judgment. And he, earlier in the conversation, he had said like, doesn’t

Shannon Popkin (38:28.373) look down on people with this condescending superiority, love like cries with me and mourns with me. And so I referred back to that and I just said, you you mentioned love mourning with us. And I said, I think that’s what Jesus did. He saw me in my sin and he knew I couldn’t save myself. There was nothing I could do. I was stuck and he felt bad for me. He felt empathy for me and that’s why he died for me. He saved me.

Lisa Appelo (38:34.219) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (38:57.257) And I said, you’re exactly right. If I’m in that arc and, you know, or if I’m Rahab on the other side of being saved out of Jericho and I look at all those other people in Jericho or all those other people being judged by the flood and say, tsk, tsk, you know, look at you, you bad people. I mean, that would be very, very wrong to have any sort of a condescending superiority because all of us have sinned. have.

Shannon Popkin (39:22.837) all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. We are all in that one category of sinner. Whether you are a prostitute like Rahab, know, work in a strip club like these women that you were talking about, Lisa, whether you have embezzled funds, whether you have aborted your baby, whether you have cheated on your husband, we are all in the same category. We are all like the people of Jericho and

Shannon Popkin (39:52.202) all deserve God’s judgment, all of us. And yet look at the one that he responds to. It’s the one who says, save me, show your mercy on me. And that does require some humility, right? To say.

Lisa Appelo (39:59.438) Mm-hmm.

Lisa Appelo (40:03.926) Now, you know, we,

Lisa Appelo (40:05.227) we better stay close to the fact that we were rescued, that we did nothing to deserve this, that we were not qualified. And so we don’t go into the camp of feeling disqualified at the whole time, you know, all the time, but we also don’t go into the other camp of saying, I, you know,

Shannon Popkin (40:09.865) Yeah.

Lisa Appelo (40:28.392) We earned this. And one of the things I’ve been really trying to do this year, you know, I didn’t pick a word of the year, but I just asked the Lord of my quiet time, make the gospel come true to me again. Like make it alive to me every day that I never ever get over.

Shannon Popkin (40:41.375) Mm. Yeah.

Lisa Appelo (40:48.674) the fact that you did, were on a rescue mission and that you rescued me out of my own sin and have called me to you in that love. You when you talk about love, think of Jesus standing of Jerusalem saying, I just weeping and lamenting saying how I would have longed to have taken you under my wing like a hen takes her chicks under his wing under her wing. But you were not willing and here

Lisa Appelo (41:16.722) all of these, all of these people in Jericho and only one willing, only one saw it and that was Rahab and because of her she said not just for me but I want my sister and my brother, my mother, my father and all of them, their households to know this love. So yeah, this is absolutely a rescue mission and

Shannon Popkin (41:36.258) So good. I love it. And I love

Shannon Popkin (41:39.569) that you brought up, you know, we haven’t seen that part of the story yet, but Rahab’s whole family is going to be saved. Just like Noah’s whole family is going to be saved. Like in the chapter that I wrote on Noah, I talked about like, gosh, only eight people were saved, but also all of his family was saved. Right? And we don’t know how many in Rahab’s situation, but we have influence and

Shannon Popkin (42:05.631) I think one of the ways that we have influence with our own loved ones and even with this man that I was interacting with on Instagram, I mean, I don’t know how God would use that, but what I think the influence that we have needs to be rooted in humility, in the gospel, recognizing, like telling my kids, you know what, I too deserve God’s wrath. I too have been rescued and look at, it’s not by my righteousness.

Shannon Popkin (42:32.917) that I saved myself. That’s why I let myself off the hook. I don’t have to do it all right. I don’t have to push myself. I don’t have to stay up too late and lose sleep over these righteous things I’m trying to do. I can’t save myself. I haven’t saved myself. So living the gospel, the gospel is not just for that moment that you crossed over from death to life. The gospel should impact our thinking and our living. I love that that was your prayer this year, Lisa. like it should have.

Shannon Popkin (43:00.947) impact us on a daily basis over and over and over. And I think that is the greatest influence that we can have in the lives of the people that we love. God does not just choose, he never chooses a righteous person because there were no righteous people. He chooses people like Rahab, people who have done it all wrong and yet who cry out, pick me, save me. I in a city full of wickedness, I am the one who’s crying out for your mercy Lord. So

Shannon Popkin (43:30.921) Lisa, let’s pick it up next time, okay? Where we will talk a little bit more about Rahab. Thank you so much for being my