Speaker 2 (00:00) Well, I’m so excited to have Libby Van Selkoma here with us at Live Like It’s True. Libby is my pastor’s wife. I’m so excited to have you, Libby. It’s such a great joy to have you here. Let me tell our listeners a little bit about you. You’re one of the directors at church. Correct. Yeah. You’ve written a lot of the curriculum. You lead trips to Israel. How many people from our church have gone on those trips?

Speaker 1 (00:09) It’s a joy.

that is a great question. I want to say maybe 500. Okay. So we’ve led a lot of people. We’ve led over 30 trips. So it’s in the thousands, but people from our church for sure. That’s our first priority. So a lot of people have had the, you know, gotten to go watch. It’s so fun.

Speaker 2 (00:42) Well, and it’s made such, mean, every conversation I’m in with people like in house church or Bible study groups, people are constantly referring, well, when we were in Israel and saw this and Rod taught us, you know, it’s really marked our church. I loved that. I loved that. And then you’re also the cohost of the locker room podcast. It was produced at Crossroads and I just love that ministry. I’ve gotten to be a guest a couple of times. It’s been so And then one more thing that if our guests,

Speaker 1 (00:57) Thank you.

That’s correct.

Speaker 2 (01:12) Probably familiar now by this point with Erika VanHaitsma who graduated from the Jerusalem University College. That’s correct. You and Rod also studied there.

Speaker 1 (01:21) We

We did. Yeah, we had the joy of, ⁓ we were on sabbatical there. We lived there for about six months. And so I got to do a semester in ⁓ first century Judaism, temple period, archeology, history. It was amazing.

Speaker 2 (01:38) Well, that is perfect for conversation today, because we’re going to be talking about an interaction that Jesus had with the Pharisees about the Sabbath. And so it’s like one of those, one of those just hot button topics was the Sabbath. And I was thinking about it, like, why do you feel like of all of the 10 commandments, why is that one the one that they so zeroed in on? Or do you think that it’s, that’s not true that it was really all of the commandments that they

took issue with.

Speaker 1 (02:09) Well, I would say they were very ⁓ vigilant about all of the commandments. Particularly the Sabbath, during the time of Jesus, there was a debate going on between two famous rabbis other than Jesus, Hillel and Shammai, and they were debating how are we going to interpret how you observe Sabbath. And one of them was very strict, and one of them was very lenient or more…

gracious. And so Jesus aligns actually more with Hillel, who is a little bit more holistic and putting people above the rules. So this wasn’t just something that Jesus was stepping into ⁓ as Lord of the Sabbath, but it was a huge debate just at that time anyway of how are we gonna observe this? And the Sabbath is very important to the Jewish people. ⁓ It’s one of the rhythms that actually they identify with that protects them as

a nation. So while a lot of the Ten Commandments, you know, is like, don’t commit adultery, don’t steal, don’t kill. Those are obvious ones that are communal. This is something that they celebrate together as a community and they don’t want to violate it because it’s a part of their identity. It’s what marks them as compared to other nations and how they are God’s people, if that makes sense. So other nations might have rules like don’t kill, you know.

Speaker 2 (03:30) And

should.

Speaker 1 (03:31) Yeah, common moral law. And this is one that’s very specific to the Jewish people in their wholehearted pursuit of God and being his people. To be like him and celebrate Sabbath. So I asked one of my Jewish friends once because for a long time the Jewish people didn’t have a land at all. As we know before they were given Israel after World War II, but they survived as a people group, a very distinct people group without a geographical space. Which is very strange.

Speaker 2 (04:00) How would you do that? Like, ⁓ what’s the word? Refugees.

Speaker 1 (04:06) But

they still maintain, like they didn’t just integrate. Their worship didn’t go down. They still remained distinct. And his response to me was two things. ⁓ Suffering, suffering unites us together and makes us need each other. And the second thing he said was Sabbath. All over the world, we observe this Sabbath. And that’s what…

kept us distinct. So I’m only saying that to say that it is such an important part of who they are and their rhythms as a nation that I think it’s just a hot topic for them.

Speaker 2 (04:41) Right. Well, and I wonder too, if it’s clearly observable, like so many of the other commands, you know, whether or not you’re honoring your mother and father or you’re committing adultery in your heart or you’re coveting or, know, these are things that nobody can really measure, but the Sabbath is, you know, somewhat measurable. Right. Are you, are you working? Are you resting? ⁓

And I was thinking about how like the whole idea of the Sabbath was that they would have rest. it’s God is a generous God. It started with creation the seventh day. He modeled it and he it’s because he’s such a good and generous and kind God that he wants for us to not work ourselves to death like every other God would want. know, like every other God is like you.

do for me, I demand, right? And so this God is distinct in that he wants to bless us. He wants to give something to us. And yet even that, the Pharisees had kind of turned into not a blessing, but a restrictive kind of thing. It was more about what you couldn’t do, not what you got to do.

Right? It’s like, instead of you get to rest, have to, or you can’t do, these are the lists of things you can’t do. Let’s just read the first section. So could you read Luke 6, 1 through 5 from the ESV?

Speaker 1 (06:12) Sure, on a Sabbath, while he was going through the grain fields, his disciples plucked and ate some heads of grain, rubbing them together in their hands. But some of the Pharisees said, why are you doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath? And Jesus answered, have you not read what David did when he was hungry? He and those who are with him, how he entered the house of God and took and ate the bread of the presence, which is not lawful for anyone but the priest to eat, and also gave it to those who are with him?

And he said to them, the son of man is Lord of the Sabbath.

Speaker 2 (06:44) Okay. So first off, what’s surprising? What makes this a story? You know, the things that are recorded as stories in the Bible, they’re not just, you know, I went to the mailbox and came back there. Like, it’s like something about it turns it into a story. What do you think for this one?

Speaker 1 (07:00) Well, I think it’s very interesting that ⁓ the Pharisees just happened to be there when he’s walking through the grain fields and they’re hungry and they decide to eat. Yeah, these people are like lurking amongst the wheat shafts are like, look there, they did it. They picked some grain and they ate. ⁓ That’s maybe not surprising because that’s the seems like the character of the Pharisees.

Speaker 2 (07:09) And then these would have

the Wheatfields they wouldn’t necessarily be in town where you would find the religious leaders is that true?

Speaker 1 (07:29) I would say no, mean, knowing the land of Israel that the fields would be outside the village, outside the little city, I mean, the farmland. So they’re walking along and they decide to, I mean, I picture Jesus grabbing a grain of wheat. And if you’ve ever walked through wheat fields, you know you can grab a kernel of wheat and you can rub it in your hands and you can eat what’s left. The chaff kind of blows away. And I think he, I picture him just starting to do that. And the disciples like,

We can do this. Let’s do it. I mean, you know, like, okay, he’s our rabbi, he’s doing it, we can do it. I think they were probably shocked that he did it. And I think this is shocking for the Pharisees who saw it too. ⁓

Speaker 2 (08:12) Okay. So ⁓ Deuteronomy 23, 25 sanctions that this was something you were allowed to do. Like you weren’t allowed to just harvest on this, but if you wanted to grab a snack, you know, you’re walking through the field, that was totally permissible. ⁓ And so the fact that Jesus is even doing that would stand out. didn’t, I didn’t realize that, but the disciples are his followers. So they do, you know, they talk about

walking in the dust of the rabbi. Disciples do what they’re in and not, I want our listeners to understand this isn’t just distinctive with Jesus. There were like maybe 30 some rabbis at the time of Jesus who would have their own disciples and they would use, this is different with Jesus. They would usually select their, or I’m sorry, the students would select their rabbi would sort of like apply to be part of the

Speaker 1 (09:05) Almost like applying for a college. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (09:08) But in Jesus’ case, he selected his students and he selected the least likely ones. Correct. You know, the ones who weren’t chosen for whatever it was called, Rabbi school or something.

Speaker 1 (09:18) Yeah,

so he selected people that had probably at this point already been like siphoned out of the academic circles. Like they hadn’t gone to the next level. Exactly. And he went and searched them out in their professions because they were no longer a part of this elite group of students that would go on to be professional students in a sense and just invited them to be his.

Speaker 2 (09:29) The hen made the cut, right?

You know what? heard what Rad say one time, and I’ve never had a chance to ask him, that he thought the disciples were probably teenagers. Why would he say that? ⁓

Speaker 1 (09:53) So we

know for a fact ⁓ that if you were the age of 20 or older, that you had to pay a temple tax. So this is another instance where the Pharisees come to Jesus and say, why don’t your disciple, why don’t you and your disciple pay the temple tax? And then he sends them to go get a coin out of a fish’s mouth for him and Peter. So only Peter and he would have been obligated to pay the temple tax. So they would have been the ones over 20.

Speaker 2 (10:21) Okay,

interesting. That is so cool. I had never heard that before.

Speaker 1 (10:26) Well, and Rod really thinks

John is very young to have written Revelation, to have lived, know, so he’s actually probably very young. mean, I don’t want to go on record, maybe 15.

Okay. Maybe even 14. Yeah. Very young. Isn’t that amazing? Which I love to hear, think about because in the Last Supper it says that he laid his head on Jesus’ chest. like as a young, you know, a young disciple who just really saw him as a father figure, you know, there’s something really endearing about it.

Speaker 2 (10:57) Tender,

very tender. Like these were his guys, you know, his boys and they were walking along with him learning from Jesus. And so I kind of picture this whole wheat in the field thing. Like I like that image of Jesus grabs something like, Ooh, what, you know, can too. We can too. But I kind of wonder if we could not exactly, but could make the parallel of a mom with her kids.

You know, like I am the mom and I let my kids do certain things and you are another mom Yeah, and you don’t let your kids do those things

Speaker 1 (11:35) I remember that

was really hard when we first had kids in our family. Like my brother and his wife parented different than we did. And so all of sudden there was this weird, why do they get to do that? And we don’t get to do that. And they’re breaking the rules.

Speaker 2 (11:49) And it’s,

this is what we’re, you know, the series is on judging. so this is what is calling out the judging is Jesus is allowing his disciples to do something that nobody else is allowing their disciples to do. Like what they get to. ⁓ so like thinking back when you were a mom or with your brother, what were some of the things that, I don’t know, felt like you could judge another mom because she allowed her kids to do it or you felt like.

You know, you were being judged because you didn’t let your kids to do something. there any?

Speaker 1 (12:21) This is a hilarious one to me now because I’m older and wiser. But I remember one time I was with a friend, we were actually on vacation with our kids and I’m pretty laid back. I mean…

probably to a fault was laid back as a mom and she was very structured. And so she had planned three meals a day for her kids, which is very normal. And I had kind of felt like we were gonna do an outing and my kids could get over with a snack, like a griller bar, we can make this work. And she looked at me and said something like, well, I don’t know about you, but my kids need and deserve three meals a day. And I was kind of like, ee.

I’m like, yeah,

guess my kids probably do too. And I should be a better mom and have this all planned out, like you do,

Speaker 2 (13:08) Yeah. goodness. Right now someone could look into my life and say, your family needs and deserves a dinner each night. And I would be like cowering and changing. know. My poor family gets nothing. Right. I think there’s some leftovers in there. Exactly.

Speaker 1 (13:21) Well, I like to say I produce sort of a grittiness. You know, it’s good.

Speaker 2 (13:25) Mine are gritty. I’ll tell you that they can fend for themselves like the best of them. That’s good. But yeah, like there’s so it’s right to give your kids three meals a day. is, that is, but you can feel so judged. Totally.

Speaker 1 (13:31) That’s not bad, that’s good.

All of sudden just shame. I felt like incapable, not good at what I was doing, convicted, like I should be better. That just creeps in.

Speaker 2 (13:50) Yeah. And

there’s also this pattern. mean, you, the shame is definitely an outcome, but also for me, it’s the feel judged, become judgy. There’s that pattern. Do ever feel like you’re judging me while you, know, and you just kind of turn it back. ⁓ and I was thinking about, well, several of the sticking points for what I remember with our kids were Harry Potter. Do or don’t with Harry Potter.

Speaker 1 (14:15) Mm-hmm.

I let my kids read it. Okay. But there were… I almost felt judged for a second.

Speaker 2 (14:20) I did too.

Oh,

no, you’re not. You’re not. But there were people, know, because it has wizards and witches or I think, you know, and so there are people in our circles who did not allow their kids to read that. And so I remember telling the kids, look, you can read it. You cannot talk about it with these people. Like we’re not going to get into like, I just don’t want to deal with it. So put the books away. Do not let them be seen in public. Another thing was Halloween. Yeah. Did you do dress up and we

Speaker 1 (14:53) but we only allowed certain costs to, like we didn’t allow any, you know, craft related or really scary ghost monster which.

Speaker 2 (14:58) So we.

We

could nothing that celebrated death. So, or the evil, you know, so they couldn’t be a witch or a skeleton or any, know, cause we wanted to, we were like, we’re all about celebrating the dressing up in the candy. Like we love those things. And, but we had friends who did that differently. They, that was the devil’s holiday and they did not want. And so same thing with our kids. was like, look, you, we can celebrate Halloween. We feel like that’s okay for you, but

you may not talk about it, you know, like we’re and so here Jesus is with his disciples and they are, they’re not in public. You would think they’re it’s fine, but he’s allowing them to grab the sweet and he is called out on it. ⁓ And so I think it’s really interesting that Jesus responds to, so they’re, they say, why are you doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath? First off, is he doing something unlawful?

Speaker 1 (15:59) He’s not, I mean, like you already mentioned, according to Deuteronomy, you could go through the fields and pick a snack. I liked how you said that. You couldn’t get out your sickle and start harvesting in someone else’s field, but you could eat. ⁓ But he’s doing it not, so it’s not unlawful, but it’s unlawful on the Sabbath. Right? So he’s doing something that’s okay, but it’s just the wrong day to do it. That’s what they’re saying.

Speaker 2 (16:25) It’s all about the Sabbath. And so I think I read somewhere they had 39 different activities that you could not do on the Sabbath. And somehow they did four of them. I don’t know what those four would be. Someone, commentary I read, had, he didn’t tell me what four, but I’m like, how could you have broken four laws there? But the point is Jesus approves of it and he says it’s okay. To me, it’d be like,

letting somebody eat the communion crackers, right? It’s like…

Well, Jesus is going to compare this to this other story in the Old Testament, which I really like this Libby, because the, what I’ve said often in this podcast is that stories really package up truth in a way that’s retainable and succinct. Like stories are really short, you know, like some 300 word stories in the Bible, like think about the, the prodigal son. I think it’s like 400 words and there are shelves full of books written about that same parable. You know, it’s just so much rich theology. And so Jesus is modeling this.

for us, looking at a story to figure out right and wrong. He looks back at this time that David was super hungry and took some of the show bread from the…

It wouldn’t have been the temple was tabernacle. ⁓ And so he ate, he ate some and gave some to his, ⁓ comrades and the, Jesus is giving approval of that, like it’s a pay. Right. And so, I don’t know, do you think other people would have judged David back then?

Speaker 1 (17:59) I think if you look at the, I think it’s in first Samuel, but if you read the story carefully, so the rule was that the showbread, only the priest could eat it. And so he comes in and says, we’re hungry, they’d been at war. He and his comrades, and so the priest asks an interesting question. He asked them, have you been holy?

So he asked David and his men, have you refrained from women and know, the things that would, and David says, yes, we’re holy vessels. And so then the priest says, okay, you can eat it. And so when Jesus refers to this, he’s actually calling out another exception to the law ⁓ that they would, that the Pharisees would have known about. For sure. What he’s saying, there are exceptions to the law. And the thing that made, ⁓

this exception appropriate in David’s life was that he was holy and set apart. as I think there’s more than meets the eye maybe here because as Jesus is the son of David and he is the walking temple, he’s basically saying like, your rules don’t matter anymore.

Speaker 2 (18:54) interest.

Speaker 1 (19:10) in a sense. mean, Sabbath, no one argues that. It’s actually the practice of Sabbath, what that looks like. So Sabbath still matters. It matters for us today. It’s one of the things that it says in the new heavens and the new earth, we’ll still celebrate Sabbath, rest. But how do we practice it? And Jesus is saying, you’re off the mark. And I’m the walking temple in a sense, this…

field of grain is my sanctuary, because I’m here. It’s become a holy place and these are the priests. And I get to say, you know, what’s valid and what’s not, because he concludes by saying, I’m the Lord of the Sabbath.

Speaker 2 (19:49) So yeah, that’s exactly it. The son of man, you that’s his concluding statement. The son of man is the Lord of the Sabbath. And so it’s basically an authority issue here. Who’s got the authority? Yeah. Which that is creating the rub. You know, like they’re not going to get this upset about somebody. I mean, what if somebody else was eating grain? You know, would they have been as in their face about it if some other rabbi?

Speaker 1 (19:59) Totally. Right. And the Pharisees do not like this.

What we glean from the Bible is that Jesus carried in a unique sense of authority, right? How do you teach as one who has authority, not as our scribes and Pharisees, but so there’s something about Jesus that is like stirring up the affections of the people. Their heart is calling and responding to his truth. And so the Pharisees are losing influence. And so I don’t think if there was another rabbi who was not

know, stirring the affections of the people and actually commanding the scriptures the way he did, ⁓ that it would have been a threat to them. This is specifically because it’s a threat to the system that they’ve set up and enjoyed as being at the top of the chain.

Speaker 2 (21:02) Absolutely.

Well, and in that time authority was conferred from one rabbi to another. wasn’t just, you didn’t just decide to be a rabbi. No, you had, was sort of almost like an ordination, like the way we do ordination councils where would they like put a hand on the next, you know, rabbi and then he could have his own disciples, but not until, and Jesus didn’t have that like according to their way of thinking.

Speaker 1 (21:30) He blows that up too, because that’s another system that they have. And so when they say by what authority, mean, His authority is God and the Holy Spirit at His baptism.

Speaker 2 (21:41) Doesn’t he kind

of mention, I don’t know, kind of alludes to his baptism as…

Speaker 1 (21:44) Yeah, well, exactly,

he does. But they, I can’t remember exactly. I should know this.

Speaker 2 (21:52) was in a recent sermon, think it was it was it when Jesus talked about the sermon of the or the parable of the Sower. I feel like it was that sermon, but I could be wrong.

Speaker 1 (22:02) Anyway,

I’m pretty sure that they come to him and they say, by what authority do you do this? And then he responds and says, well, by what authority did John the Baptist do

answer, because then they’re like, we know we could be in trouble for, they’re always really good at spinning their answers because they don’t want to get caught. so, ⁓ but it’s so, I mean, it’s so like us to like want to manipulate and maneuver the truth almost so that we don’t get caught. And so that we can always come out ahead, ⁓ rather than the humility of just putting ourselves.

in the actual open, obvious truth, whether that means good or bad for us, right? I mean, I just see the Pharisees as never like humbling themselves. They are the law. Like they are the truth, whatever they say, how they’ve interpreted it is final.

Speaker 2 (22:57) Yeah, so like when we take that lesson for ourselves, you know, we don’t want to be like the Pharisees. We don’t want to live according to this judgy law. You know, are.

Speaker 1 (23:07) We are. I mean,

we are so much. I mean, we don’t want to be. I mean, I think especially people who have grown up in, ⁓ I call it an embarrassment of riches because I love the way I grew up. had, was, mean, Christianity is a part of my DNA. Even if I didn’t choose Jesus from my heart, you know, it’s just a part of this scaffolding that has ⁓ built me into who that I, who I am today. And so

there’s a part of that that wants to just know exactly what’s right and wrong and then to be able to do it to check a box, if that makes sense. And I see that in the…

in the Pharisees, they’re always like in the details, like the devil’s in the details. And it’s almost like, I was thinking when you told me, let’s do Luke six, which I was excited about, they wanna know exactly, why are you doing this? And you need to have these 39 things that you’re not supposed to do. I don’t think their intentions were all bad, but I was thinking of the good Samaritan because when Jesus tells that parable.

Pharisees again are coming to him and the question is, then who is my neighbor? Right? Right? So I feel like the person asking that is saying like, just give me the details. Exactly as my neighbor so I can treat them well. So they don’t know exactly what to do and check the box. Because I just want to systematically be okay. If that makes sense. I feel like that’s instilled in us from a religiosity standpoint.

Speaker 2 (24:25) pyramids.

Is block? Is it two blocks? ⁓

And

in that story, Jesus flips it on his head. so that they’re identifying with the guy on the road. And now who do you want to be your neighbor? Right? Do you want it to be just anyone? yes, it’s like, what do I want to receive? Do I want to receive grace and mercy? Or do I want the laws to be levied against me?

Speaker 1 (25:06) In

some ways the laws are easier.

I don’t know that makes sense or not, but it’s easier for you to give me a list of five things I’m supposed to do and then I can check all that off. That’s much easier than like looking deeper at my heart and what are my motivations. And the good Samaritan himself never stopped and said, hmm, is this guy my neighbor? Do I have to do this right now? And he just like, there’s someone hurting. And I think we see that in Jesus here when he’s walking in that field is it, should we eat this grain or not? We’re hungry.

You know, this is just something, and my disciples are hungry. The people I’m walking with are hungry. And so this is something that ⁓ is of a higher value than just checking a box. ⁓

Speaker 2 (25:49) Well,

it’s almost so like if you think again about those 10 commandments, this is something that you’re commanded not to do, like not to work on this habit. And even in that, want to turn it back into a self-salvation situation where I know I’m doing it right. Right. So, and I am in charge of other people doing it right. That’s the Pharisees, right? Versus Jesus is saying, look, I’m Lord of the Sabbath and I don’t operate that way.

Speaker 1 (26:17) No, I-

Speaker 2 (26:18) That’s not the kind of Lord that I am. I am not a check the box and you will be approved sort of Lord. No. Right?

Speaker 1 (26:25) Yeah, I can even see myself saying, feeling really good about being hungry and walking through the grain field and still withstanding picking wheat because that’s not right. So look at what a good person, even though I was hungry, I didn’t pick wheat and I didn’t eat and I’m still hungry, but I’m such a good person. And I think Jesus wants to just break all of that, all those stereotypes.

Speaker 2 (26:49) I think, so I’m trying to think how do we live like this is true or how do we, know, what are the false narratives this correct? So I think one of the patterns I see in parallel with them is we make our own rules about right and wrong. And then we judge other people based on our, whatever we stack on top of like, yes, you know, remember the Sabbath, right? But these 34, whatever rules of what you’re not allowed to do.

What are the ways we like, what are some examples of ways that we turn into Pharisees with our own judging kind of right and wrong? You know, I mean, we met, mentioned motherhood, but like, about right? Like, I don’t know how we’re like right living kinds of things.

Speaker 1 (27:32) Yeah, I’m a recovering Pharisee myself. So, it’s hard for me to, I even know when raising my kids, like I tend to look at the outer behavior, you know, and get caught up in things that are very behavioral. Now for sure out of the heart, the mouth speaks. the heart, I mean, behavior sometimes, ⁓ reflects what’s going on inside, but

I want to correct just the behavior as opposed to actually going for the heart.

Speaker 2 (28:02) Well, and sometimes you can’t do both at the same time. Like you really, if you’re invested in behavior, you’re going to do it completely differently than if you’re invested in that heart. mean, behavior, like I was a super controlling mom and I whipped up some really good looking kids. Right. I was, I put a lot of pressure on them. I was very like, how do we look kind of mindset. And in some ways that worked against.

my kids, right? There was a lot to unravel. Has been a lot to unravel as adult children. Like I’ve gone public with the fact I wrote a book called Control Girl. Like I have owned that. And, ⁓ and so I think that’s given my kids some freedom to talk about, know, how it was growing up. And some of it makes me really sad. You know, it really makes me sad when I think about all the pressure I put on the external versus like, look,

having that long game perspective on, you know what, he’s a kid. He’s going to do kid types of things and I love him.

and I’m after his heart and I’m gonna be patient with him in this. I’m not gonna overdo my judgment, overdo the shame, overdo the like, you know what buddy, you were wrong, but Jesus has done so much for you. He lived a righteous life in your place. You don’t have to be perfect. Isn’t that good news? Like wouldn’t that have been like shame on you.

As a, you know, in contrast, shame on the, cannot believe I have taught you differently. Like that second way is all like you’re, this is a reflection of me. I’ve got enough nip this in the bud. I have to be in control. You know, those two ways are just completely different.

Speaker 1 (29:49) I

had a friend that she actually had adopted a daughter and ⁓

she came into their family when she was about 12. Okay. From, you know, a broken scenario. And she said, I was so tempted and I was convicted by this because I raised a daughter, you know, it wasn’t an adaptive situation. She said, I was so tempted to correct her language, her clothing, her, you know, how, and she said, I did that for the first couple of weeks and she just shrank, shrank, shrank. And I realized that Lord convicted me that for a year, I’m not going to talk about her external.

I am just gonna go for her heart and just let her know how loved she is and how much we care for her. And I was convicted of that, you know, just as a mom of a teenage daughter, I’m not gonna go for, I mean, my first instinct is like, you are not wearing that, don’t talk to me that way, you know? And those are just behavioral. And that’s why I I’m a recovering Pharisee because, and in some ways, like you said, raising bright, shiny kids who are

Speaker 2 (30:27) .

Speaker 1 (30:52) looked like they were put together from a kit, know, checks a lot of boxes, right? I mean, it checks a lot of boxes. It’s messier. It is difficult for the heart and it’s riskier, you know, for your reputation and, ⁓ but yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:01) this.

But I think looking back, there’s greater risk in…

dealing with the superficial and not the heart. think there is more when you look at the long-term effects of raising a little Pharisee who is good on the outside and yet whose heart is like Jesus said, like the cup is like filthy on the inside that there’s so much more danger because they think they’re okay. Right. They think they’re inoculated with the truth. Look at how good I am on the outside. my goodness. I’m, just being convicted about this all over again.

Speaker 1 (31:17) There is.

Speaker 2 (31:43) ⁓ you know, and so, but okay, so right at this stage in our life would be, how can we live like it’s true that Jesus, he’s so after the heart. He’s so like, look how the way he’s putting together his little disciple go pack. He’s not all about the externals. He’s yeah, go ahead and grab that grain. You know, how can we, how can we do that in this stage of life?

Speaker 1 (31:59) Yeah, exactly.

I think

as empty nesters and people who are in ministry, for me, one of the things that God’s convicted me of in the last, I would say six months, maybe eight months is to actually gather a group of women around me that are of all different ages, that are all different, they look different, ⁓ but to go for their hearts. That makes sense. ⁓ so I think…

I can’t speak to everything, but in these generations, they all struggle with different things. They might look a little different. They might even make different choices than I do. But what does it look like to sit around a table and go for each other’s hearts? And they go for mine too. ⁓ And just spurring us on and not necessarily looking at the surface or trying to look under, I wanna look underneath what’s been said, or what the frustration is.

point people to Jesus of all different walks of life. ⁓ so yeah, for me, that’s just been a conviction I’ve had recently of not being so busy about kingdom work and being more intentional about the hearts that are around me.

Speaker 2 (33:20) Wow. That

could actually be less seen, right? And less superficially, you know, amazing, right? ⁓ I mentor a couple of different girls and same thing, you know, nobody knows about that. I guess maybe now they do, cause they just mentioned it, but it’s like going ⁓ and when you were talking about not…

going after those behavioral things, maybe they’re doing it differently than I would or than I did. so not being a Pharisee looks like, you know what? I don’t know that that is, it’s a new generation. It’s a new way to do things. I’ll give you one example of my life. My, have one getting married. ⁓ yeah. And the way you do you, who’s getting married?

Speaker 1 (34:09) Our son Bennett, June 20th.

Speaker 2 (34:11) We have one in July. So ⁓ the way kids do weddings now is so different than the way that we did weddings. Like for instance, the guest list. When I got married, it was like we had a really, I didn’t care about the venue. We just got married at church and the food was, my mom is a caterer. So she did the food and ⁓

But I just wanted everybody included. So we had a huge, like 450 people at our wedding, which is unheard of now. But now it’s completely different. It’s very much like if the kids don’t know the guests, they don’t really want those.

Speaker 1 (34:54) I’m in the same boat, yep.

Speaker 2 (34:57) And I am having to now look at, what is the heart of a wedding? What is the heart of a wedding? And do I have to, I had to lay that down, you know? And you know, I would, if I were getting married again, I would do it exactly the same way I did. The venue would not be as important to me as the guest list, you know? And it’s just, it’s not a right or wrong, it’s just different. ⁓

And I’m not in any way saying that I’m unhappy about, like, I love the way that this wedding is coming together. It’s going to be so amazing. And I’m so excited. honestly, it was more before one of my kids got married. I’ve probably had a dozen friends call me and say, Shannon, I’m so sorry. I would have loved to have you on the guest list. And it’s just like they’re wanting to keep it super small. we had to draw. And I’m like, you know what? Blessings on your family. No judgment. You know, we’re talking about judging.

⁓ But yeah, any other like wedding kinds of things or like, I don’t know.

Speaker 1 (35:59) Well, I just think, like my daughter’s already said, and she’s not even dating anyone. So who knows? But you you might not like my dress. Like she’s already, you know, and you’re probably not gonna like that we’re gonna keep it really, really small because she’s my only daughter. So she knows I’ll be very into it. So I’m already like, okay. I’m already, think God’s just given me a long time to prepare for, you know, setting down your own. But those are really small things that we’re mentioning, but they do come up. They just come up in your heart and mind.

Speaker 2 (36:29) They can feel like

really big things. And I think it comes back to, well, here’s, want to throw this thought out to you and then help us get really practical with this. There is someone who’s doing it a different way and you feel so like it gets at you, you know, like, like that lady who said, my kids deserve three meals a day or, you know, like they’re wearing, like the, the adoptive mom who she’s wearing things, she’s talking ways. So if Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath, that’s the rule that’s being.

debated. What rule is he not Lord of? Right? He’s the Lord over every aspect of our lives. He is the Lord over ⁓ what we wear, who we invite, what we say, what we eat. He’s the Lord over all. He’s the Lord of everything. And

How does that help us deal with this whole judgy thing? and wrong. know, judging is criticizing is maybe, you know, you’ve got your opinions judging. It has to do with morals, right and wrong, moral contempt for one another. How does it help to know that Jesus like he’s responding this way? The son of man is Lord of the Sabbath. How does that help?

Speaker 1 (37:40) I think for me, like I said, my tendency and my…

personality even would be, let’s black and white, let’s stay inside the box. And I just think the older I get and the longer I walk with Jesus, the more I realize I don’t have it figured out. And he is the Lord of everything. And even some of the texts in the Bible that are surprising to me, even that he says, you know, ⁓ that I would think if I was walking next to him, I would challenge that, you know, even him. So for me, I feel like I’ve learned

to not trust my own responses to things. I’ve actually decided that my first responses to those kind of situations that feel dicey or contentious or ⁓ like on the edge or gray, my first response is actually usually wrong. My first response is like, know what they should do in that situation. That’s probably not the right choice. My second response as a…

ever sanctifying follower of Jesus Christ is, you know what? God’s got that. He’s in charge of it. And let’s love those people into the kingdom, or let’s love them into relationship. Let’s focus more on that. But I think that little trigger in my mind, just to remind myself, your first response is probably wrong, is really helpful for me.

Speaker 2 (39:05) As

a Pharisee, your first response is usually wrong. Usually wrong. That’s actually really helpful. Yeah. Thank you. fill in the blank. ⁓ We live like this story is true by…

Speaker 1 (39:21) Mmm.

I just think this might sound repetitive, but loving people really well. And I think we live like this story is true. And you asked me a question earlier ⁓ about what does it look like for you to love the people around you or what are you convicted of lately? And I just said, I’m trying to go for the people’s hearts around me. And I’ll just be really vulnerable and honest. Like I’m trying to go for my heart too. So to live like this is true is to continually examine my own heart and say, which camp?

⁓ Is my heart becoming more like Christ? Or is my heart being constantly like weighted and anchored back into these human systems that make me just feel better about myself? Or am I constantly trying to not just live like Christ but recognize him as savior? Like I’m not the savior. There’s nothing I can do. I can’t obey Sabbath perfectly and then be a better Christian. There are no better Christians. It’s all about Jesus. And so reminding my own heart and going

going for that at the root of who I am. ⁓ The humility, the broad strokes of wanting to be like Jesus, wanting to look like Jesus, not the detail each at the box. So if we live like it’s true, I mean that’s something that I’m going, I’m going for my own heart. Jesus is going for my heart. So why would I focus on my behavior? No, focus on my heart, think.

Speaker 2 (40:48) that idea

of broad strokes. know, being a broad strokes disciple. It’s really not about the check the backs little details. It isn’t. He’s already checked all the boxes. He took the test. got a perfect score and he handed me that, right? The reward. And so I can’t check enough boxes.

Speaker 1 (40:59) He’s talked all about.

Speaker 2 (41:11) ever, if I did it all right forever from now until eternity. And he’s after my heart. So why would I get back to the boxes? So. Well, Libby, thank you so much for being here. Will you come back again and talk about the next story in John chapter six or in Luke chapter six?

Speaker 1 (41:20) Exactly.

I’d love to. Thank you. Yeah.