Speaker 2 (00:00) Erica VanHaitsma, welcome back to Live Like It’s True.

Speaker 1 (00:03) Thank you, Shannon. I love being here.

Speaker 2 (00:05) So great to have you back. We’re again about Jonah, but let me just fill our guests in with who you are. You are a wife and a mom from the Ludington, Michigan area. You and I overlap a little bit with Revive Our Hearts. both, your husband works for Revive Our Hearts and we both love that ministry. And…

love to speak and to write. I often recommend you as a Bible teacher in our area. Love that you get to do that. And you have a new book out, Restoring Ancient Words. So I’m super excited to dive into this. A study of eight Hebrew words to enhance your biblical understanding. This is different than the last one was about. Okay.

Speaker 1 (00:49) This one was a devotion.

This one actually has homework. It’s to help you. When I studied in Israel, as I studied Hebrew, I was amazed at how the Bible came to life for me and things I never picked up on. I saw. And so I want to do that for other people. Get excited. This is an amazing book.

Speaker 2 (01:08) Yeah, that’s great. I am so excited to dive in. This is so up my alley. yeah. La Torah, holy Kadesh. So I’m going to I look forward to diving into this and I think you’re going to want to copy too. Is it is it available?

Speaker 1 (01:23) It’s on Amazon.

Speaker 2 (01:25) on Amazon. Love it. So you studied though at the Jerusalem University College. You have a degree in historical geography and archaeology. Did I get that right? So you just bring all of like your podcast is called The Color and the Context of the Bible. And so you bring all of that goodness into you know all that background information into our conversations and we just love that.

We’re going to pick up the story today talking about ⁓ Jonah. You know, the last time he was hurled into the sea, not by himself, but by the poor sailors, the sea goes calm and Jonah is swallowed by a fish and a big fish. so, ⁓ I mean, Erica, have to tell you that when I was reading this story again, fresh, there are so many things that like,

you have these pictures in your mind as a kid. I don’t know if it was like a Bible story book that planted this picture or whatever, but I kind of, it probably was, if I could go back and look at my story Bible, I like picture him in a room with like a little candle or something. And then as I was reading, I’m like, that’s not really how fish bodies work, I don’t think, or digestive tracts. I was thinking he probably wasn’t sitting in a room. He probably was squ-

Speaker 1 (02:50) Yes.

Speaker 2 (02:51) In

the end, I mean, I don’t know how fish bodies work, ⁓ but you wouldn’t think he was moving around. He’s probably, yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:01) My husband taught on Jonah for our church and he wanted to intro chapter two by reciting Jonah’s prayer while wrapped in a sleeping bag. Just to give that like really comedic moment of this is such a pious, amazing sounding prayer, but you have to picture Jonah stuck in this tiny little cramped position. How crazy does it sound then? It takes away some of the pious and makes it seem more like

Speaker 2 (03:32) That’s funny.

Speaker 1 (03:33) He didn’t, he thought it would

take away from the message, which I was kind of bummed about. I wanted to see it.

Speaker 2 (03:38) Yeah, but this is like if we’re looking at genre, this is a comedy. Comedy. Yeah, we don’t think of it as comedy, but like we did talk last time about how much irony there is. the irony is all really poking fun at this is a prophet doing this. Like this is really weird. And that prayer in Jonah two, we’re not going to take time to go through that prayer. But, ⁓ you know, if you look at the prayer from the perspective of

Speaker 1 (03:42) which is a dark comedy. ⁓

Speaker 2 (04:08) book ended before and after the prayer, we do not have a humble, you know, penitent prophet. don’t, we don’t have someone who’s coming to God in deep humility before the prayer. He’s saying, just kill me. I’d rather die than go to, to go to Nineveh. And afterward he’s, there’s a lot of sulking that’s going to happen. He is not, I don’t think this is just a window of him, you know, responding rightly to God. What do you think about the prayer?

Speaker 1 (04:38) think it’s a total farce. And we have the problem, and I think we talked about this a little bit last time, when we come to scripture, we bring these preconceived ideas. And so we assume if it’s a prophet, he’ll do this. Or if it’s a prayer, obviously it’s from the heart, it’s biblical, it’s meant.

And Jonah’s prayer, you have to look at it. It’s like, this is Jonah’s big number. He’s trying to sell the reader his version of the events. He wants you to side with him, to take pity on him. And so he’s twisting everything from chapter one and he’s going to take it go, well, did it really happen that way? Or maybe it happened this way.

Speaker 2 (05:19) interesting.

Speaker 1 (05:19) He’s the victim. He’s

Speaker 2 (05:19) ⁓

Speaker 1 (05:21) the one crying out to God and he’s the one remembering and he’s the one doing all this amazing stuff because he’s just this poor person that God hurled into the sea. it’s like, Jonah, none of that’s true. And when you end the prayer, how does the fish respond? What does the fish say? That’s how we’re supposed to respond. That’s kind of how God responds. Jonah, that’s the most pathetic thing I’ve ever.

Speaker 2 (05:38) It vomits him out. ⁓

Wow, man, that’s not normally the way you hear about this prayer. It’s, yeah, it’s, but it’s, think, taking into account the literature and the genre as it’s meant to be received. So thank you for that. And I mean, I remember reading this, you know, just as I was studying it and circling all of the times that he, the word I.

or me. It’s a very self-focused prayer. There’s only a few mentions of God and they’re all, like you said, couched in this reality of like, he’s the victim, which gosh, isn’t that our generation? Like everybody’s a victim. It’s all in work. We are, we do, kind of rewrite history based on the way I see it. Never taking into account the fact that I defied God. I sinned against him. I was in my

pride, rejecting and this is what Jonah, he’s a prophet on the run. He has completely gone in the opposite direction of obedience and we’re not gonna, after the fish spits him out, we’re not gonna find, you know, still same story and actually it follows all the way through to the end of the book and it ends with a question and we don’t really know.

Speaker 1 (06:44) Yes.

Speaker 2 (07:04) What happens we don’t know if Jonah wrote the book. We don’t know somebody else did We don’t really know what happens and it poses it’s like you said last time it holds up a mirror That we might question our own hearts. Am I a judge E Jonah, you know, am I am I somebody who I see myself as the victim? ⁓ Whereas God just wants obedience. So, okay. Well, let’s let’s pick up then after the vomiting Seam and could you read and in chapter two?

I’m sorry, chapter three, starting in verse one through, let’s go through nine.

Speaker 1 (07:39) Okay, and I’ve got the NASB still. Chapter, sorry, I’m on chapter two. right, Jonah three, one through nine. Now the word of the Lord came to Jonah the second time saying, arise, go to Nineveh, the great city, and proclaim to it the proclamation which I’m going to tell you. So Jonah got up and went to Nineveh according to the word of the Lord. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly large city, a three days walk. Then Jonah began to go through the city one day’s walk.

And he cried out and said, 40 more days and Nineveh will be over to throne. Then the people of Nineveh believed in God and they called a fast and put on sackcloth from the greatest to the least of them. When the word reached the king of Nineveh, he got up from his throne, removed his rope from himself, covered himself with sackcloth and sat on the dust. And he issued a proclamation and it said, in Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, no person, animal,

or flock is to taste anything. They are not to eat or drink water. But every person and animal must be covered with sackcloth and people are to call on God vehemently and they are to turn each one from his evil way and from the violence which is in their hands. Who knows? God may turn and relent and turn from his burning anger so that we will not perish.

Speaker 2 (09:00) Okay, this is an extreme response. that is, do you see that as the big surprise of this text?

Speaker 1 (09:11) That is one definite twist. think the massive twist is in chapter four, ⁓ where we find out why Jonah ran, which you already hit on. ⁓ I think that’s the massive twist in the text, but this is definitely a jaw-dropping twist.

Speaker 2 (09:28) Okay. Like what? Yes. That this is the response from, you know, a really awful prophet. I mean, have you ever noticed that like you see some really amazing outpour of God’s mercy on a group of people and you’re like, that was the message. Like I kind of felt that way about the ass.

Asbury, Asbury, know, revival that went on. I went back and listened to part of the clip of that, that sermon, you know, and the guy who preached it, I can’t remember his name, but he, afterward he, he texted his wife, well, preached another winner, you know, like he, didn’t think he did well at all. And ⁓ he left and didn’t realize this thing that’s happening where these, yeah, these students are coming and they’re.

you know, crying out to God. It went on for weeks. know, people all over the country are coming to, am I getting that right? Asbury, think it is. Asbury. And, and, and I, you know, I listened to the sermon and I didn’t, it didn’t sound like, you know, Billy Graham or anything. It didn’t, it didn’t. Yeah. It was just like a normal message. I don’t think it was horrible. I don’t know if I listened to the whole thing, but I remember thinking like, yeah, I don’t really, it’s, it’s like the,

Effect does not match the cause and effect. Like I don’t really see the causality of this great effect. And that’s kind of what we’re seeing in Jonah. This message that he preaches is pretty minimal.

Speaker 1 (11:05) Yeah.

Five

words in the Hebrew, five. Like you think the whole way traveling to Nineveh, Joan is trying to figure how to whittle this down to as small as possible.

Speaker 2 (11:18) Wow. And how long did it take him to get there?

Speaker 1 (11:21) ⁓ boy, I would think we…

Speaker 2 (11:24) Okay.

Speaker 1 (11:26) I don’t know, that’s a really good question. I guess we don’t know, because we don’t know where the fish spit him out. So God have mercy and move him north.

Speaker 2 (11:31) that’s true. Yeah.

Who knows? Yeah. Yeah. But he’s got some time heading there and he whittles it down to a five word sermon and delivers it. And I don’t know if that means, you know, when it said that he got through day one, it says, ⁓ now Nineveh was extremely great city, a three day walk. Jonah set out on the first day of his walk.

Is that it? Did he just do the first day?

Speaker 1 (12:02) That’s the thought that he walked a day in, gave his sermon and was done. And then, but notice what he doesn’t say, Shannon. Does he say why they’re gonna be overturned? Does he say who he’s speaking for? What do you do to help this from happening? Like most prophets will come in and say, this is the word of the Lord. And they’ll acknowledge the God they’re speaking for. Jonah does nothing.

Speaker 2 (12:29) Yeah. And he doesn’t, he doesn’t say turn to God turn repentance. You know, if my people who will humble themselves and you know, like there’s all of that, there’s always the prophets are like, here’s what you do. Here’s, here’s the response to and good preaching does that. puts a fork in the road and says, ⁓ you know, if you go this way, God may be gracious to you. You he, he is a good and merciful God, but if you go this way, there will be judgment.

This sermon only has the judgment part. The fork is missing the other half. So it’s like in 40 days, Nineveh will be demolished. Okay then. It’s like just turn and turn. It doesn’t even do the turn. It’s just burn. That turn and It’s just burn. So it’s a really a pathetic sermon. And somehow the people of Nineveh believed God. How did that happen?

Speaker 1 (13:13) Yes.

Speaker 2 (13:27) You know, and I mean, there are ways that God uses sermons. I mean, you know, I am a speaker for women’s events and sometimes I’ll have women come and tell me afterward, you know, when you said that part about this, God really used that in my life. And I’m thinking, that’s actually not what I said. I’m not gonna tell you that right now, but you know, I’ve had that in multiple occasions. Like, I don’t really remember saying that.

or giving emphasis in that way to what you’re talking about, but this is clearly God’s work. He uses my meager efforts, hopefully I don’t have a Jonah type attitude, but why is Jonah this way? Like, why is it only a five word sermon? Why does he only go one day in? Why?

Speaker 1 (14:15) Have you ever had the child that you tell them to do something and they do the bare minimum? Like they do just enough, the letter of the law and they do it with a bad attitude. I think that’s Jonah. I tried to die, anyone let me die. So I’m not, I’ve got to go to Nineveh, fine. But I’m gonna go as little as possible and give the littlest sermon I possibly can. There, but I did it Lord. I went, I obeyed.

Speaker 2 (14:45) Yeah. Yeah. So that’s Jonah’s attitude toward God. He’s just defiant, rebellious. But I think what’s driving that rebellion toward God is what God has asked him to do. And so it’s the disgust toward Nineveh. That’s why he’s only telling them the burn, not the turn. That’s why that’s, mean, he’s, he doesn’t like these people. He wants them to die. I mean, that’s really harsh, but I think that’s actually true.

Speaker 1 (14:57) the discussion.

My husband likens it to what if God sent a Jewish person to Berlin during World War II? How hard would that be? And what would their response be? I mean, the Jewish person would probably be killed.

Speaker 2 (15:30) Yeah.

Do you think Jonah’s life was at stake here? Okay.

Speaker 1 (15:33) I don’t think so,

no. I think that’s what we’re supposed to wonder until chapter four. But no, I think God was gonna protect his prophet.

Speaker 2 (15:38) Okay. Yeah.

⁓

He wanted to use them. course. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, like that imagery of a Jew going to Berlin and right, you know, all of it. And he’s, you know, he’s one of the hunted down, you know, the race that’s being hunted down. so for him to, to preach a sermon, ⁓ that tells them, know, you’re going to get payback here. Right. And I want you to get paid back.

Speaker 1 (15:52) Holocaust is happening.

but I want you to get payback.

Speaker 2 (16:14) And we talked about Cory Tenboom last time and how her attitude was completely other than that. you know, we, you and I, Erica live in a generation where we just haven’t had to deal with some of the hard things that other generations have or other countries where there’s just severe, ⁓ like wrongdoing, know, ethnic cleansing, come on, that is evil. And, ⁓

other, you know, other war or, you know, like the troubles in, um, Ireland, uh, you know, just these, these groups of people that hate each other or even racism in the United States. Like we haven’t actually had to face that head on. That’s, know, maybe our grandparents or great grandparents, that was their generation, but we have lived in a peaceful time. And so we don’t really know that visceral disgust. yet.

look at how divided our culture is over the stupidest little things, right? Where I just read about a boy yesterday, who stabbed another teenage boy in the heart because he told him he was sitting in the wrong place. And I know this happened. think it was in Florida. If I’m remembering correctly. Yeah. He stabbed him because, you know, he didn’t, he didn’t like to be corrected.

And so he died. Like a 16 year old boy died. There’s, I mean, people are just losing their minds over really minimal things here. I know. wonder if it’s sort of, know, whenever I think about control and how controlling women are wreak havoc in their families and their relationships and women in America have more control than any women on the planet, you know?

And yet we are the most controlling. I wonder if it’s sort of that way. Like we have nothing to be, we have no reason to have this rule discussed. Like nobody’s killed all of our people. Nobody there had been no gas chambers as far as I know in the United States. were, know, nobody’s enslaved us. Nobody has taken our property, you know, like all of the wars that have happened in other places in the world. We really don’t have this reason to be disgusted with each other. And yet we are.

Speaker 1 (18:39) or the smallest thing.

Speaker 2 (18:40) the smallest things.

And so like we’re not so far from Jonah as we may think there isn’t a certain type of person that I feel like threatened by or anything like that. ⁓ so then why can’t I just be at peace with them? Why can’t I love everyone into the kingdom of God? Right? Like, why am I, why am I like,

Speaker 1 (19:01) I guess I can identify with Jonah, ⁓ especially during COVID on social media. I would at least make my opinion known and I would get jumped on by people I thought who were my friends at one point, but thought differently than I did. And I started to get very angry. And so now I am very careful on social media. Like I want you to know, I love Jesus.

I love chocolate. And I like to laugh. Like if you look at my social media posts, that’s basically it. But I have political opinions and some strong ones. And so when I see what other people who are believers and their political opinions don’t line up with mine and they get very hard, I struggle with them, Shannon. Like those are the people for me. Those are the Ninevites.

You know, like how can you think that as a believer? How can you claim to love Jesus and then say, that’s where I struggle with. You claim to love Jesus yet you seem to be the exact opposite of what scripture says. And so I get that perspective from Jonah. I might, I don’t know if I’d run all the way to Tarshish, throw myself into the sea, but if God were to call me,

Speaker 2 (19:58) Wow, yes.

Okay.

Ouch, lord.

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (20:21) to go to that group and preach so that they could have repentance. I feel like, well, I want to see some change first. I want them to change their life first, Lord. Then you can forgive them. But first I want to see some change. ⁓ I get.

Speaker 2 (20:34) Yeah. For sure. Yeah.

yeah, that’s really what Jonah, he was not open to preaching to them, hoping for change, right? He just wanted them. Burn that turn. But back to the COVID thing, I feel like what COVID did was surfaced so many of the divisions

Speaker 1 (20:50) Watch him burn, like you said.

Speaker 2 (21:03) that we weren’t aware of because a mask was visibly apparent on your face. Whether you were or were not wearing a mask, it was a political statement almost, whether you were or were not. And so it brought to the surface, it almost represented all of these other things. I mean, disgust between people over…

Speaker 1 (21:13) Yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:33) you know, are you loving your neighbor? It was a really hard time. I talked with a friend who, ⁓ they made some decisions for their family that didn’t match the decisions that others were making. And their kids really like were ostracized because of it. They weren’t included. ⁓ And it was really hard for them. so, I mean, I think we,

you’re wise to take another look in our hearts. If we feel like I’m not disgusted with maybe another race of person. Well, but I am disgusted with this person who disagrees with me, you know? And so this is what is like, like we said last time in our last episode, if we take out Jonah’s disgust, this whole story makes no sense. pretty particularly this part where he’s going to respond.

after everybody repented like a whole city. Like you have never seen a, it’s such a disproportionate reaction, such a minimal, a burn sermon. And they all turn like all of them turn from the King to the greatest. He calls for this fast and they’re not even like drinking water and the animals are included in the fast. It’s like crazy. And it’s like, he’s decreeing it. There’s no option to not. And yet it’s like all of them.

are turning to God. and I also love his, the last ⁓ question that the king asks in verse nine is who knows? God may turn and relent. He may turn from his burning anger so that we will not perish. And what I see in that is like, who knows? Like nobody’s saying anything, including Jonah. Who knows? know, Jonah should be there. Like what, what do you do when you’re the pastor?

and every, you know, there’s this like cry, like the Asbury situation, you know, shouldn’t you be there? Shouldn’t you have prayer opportunities for people like prayer mentoring and you should have disciples like discipling them in this moment as they’re crying out to God for the, the prophet. So where did he go? I don’t know where he is, but he’s certainly not talking to them about yes, God is a merciful God. He knows this. We’re going to see him quote that.

But he’s just not, he’s not there following it up at all. So let’s go on with verse 10. God saw their actions that they had turned from their evil ways. So God relented from the disaster he had threatened with them and he did not do it. So I don’t know if that does that mean like it’s been 40 days or he just calls it off? What do you, what do you think?

Speaker 1 (24:20) They don’t think it’s been 40 days at this point. ⁓ So they think God calls it off.

Speaker 2 (24:23) Okay.

Okay, so he’s just, he’s relenting. He did not do it. But then Jonah’s response is really interesting. So can you read that part through verse four?

Speaker 1 (24:41) so chapter four.

Speaker 2 (24:42) Mm-hmm. We’re

in like the last part of one. ⁓ Wait. I’m sorry. One through four.

Speaker 1 (24:48) Okay. angry. Then he prayed to the Lord and said, Please Lord was this not what I said when I was still in my own country? Therefore in anticipation of this I fled to Tarshish since I knew that you are gracious and compassionate God slow to anger and abundant in mercy and one who relents of disaster. So now Lord please take my life from me for death is better to me than life. But the Lord said do you

have a good reason to be angry? I I feel like the parent who’s like, oh, I will make you, I will give you a reason to be angry.

Speaker 2 (25:26) you a reason. my mom would always say that. You know, I will give you a reason. ⁓ but yes, I mean, he is furious with God and he’s like, this is what I knew it. That’s what I hear him saying. I knew it. I knew that you are kind and merciful. I knew you weren’t going to burn them. my goodness, Jonah, this is really, ⁓ yeah. Telling of your heart that you’re mad that God would be compassionate. And this is where again, I see that othering, you know,

the only way that you’re going to communicate this sort of anger and frustration with God’s mercy is if you don’t think you also deserve God’s mercy. Right? Right. And so I’m at, see if I can come up with a scenario. It’s like, you know, a tornado comes through our town and, uh,

and God ⁓ relents and doesn’t hit somebody’s house. And I’m like mad about that. I wanted that house to be hit. ⁓ does that mean that I don’t see my house also as in the path of God’s judgment? I mean, all of us, all of us have sinned, for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, including Jonah, including you and me.

all of us need God’s mercy. so this disgust that God would be merciful to someone else, I’m saying two things when I’m disgusted with that. I’m saying, first of all, my disgust always says something about myself along with you. If I’m disgusted with you, I’m also saying something about myself, like you are bad and I am not, you know? You are wrong and I am not.

Speaker 1 (27:14) That’s a really good way to put it. Cause we often, it’s easy to look and go, well, I’m wrong to be disgusted with them. But what am I saying about myself? Like we, yeah, I’m putting myself up. And as I put you down, I’m putting me up. It’s a two way street.

Speaker 2 (27:26) Yeah.

Yeah,

I’m lifting myself up and putting you down. And I mean, he says that’s why I fled to Tarshish in the first place. So last time we talked about he takes this like year long trip in the wrong direction, like cashes out everything so that he can do it. And the whole reason I did that is because I hate these people. And I was afraid that if I went there,

If I came here and gave the sermon that exactly this was going to happen, I didn’t want it. This is how bad I didn’t want it. Because I knew that you are gracious and compassionate. God like, how, how do we do that today? Eric, mean, I know we’ve, we’ve already given some illustrations like with COVID or whatever, but are there any situations where we don’t want God to be merciful and gracious?

Speaker 1 (28:24) I’m sure there are. I mean, I know as I read through history sometimes, during World War II, to bring that back up again, you’re like, Lord, you could smite them. Or truthfully with what’s going on in Israel today with Hamas. Lord, you could wipe out Hamas and I would rejoice. And I heard one professor from Moody talk about how he has said, Lord, either cause them to repent.

or bring judgment. Okay, that’s a good way to pray. Like Lord bring repentance, but if you choose not to do that, then bring justice for what they’ve done.

Speaker 2 (29:02) But the real test is if God does, or if there is repentance and God, I mean, that’s the test and that’s what Jonah’s facing here is his enemies are repenting. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (29:05) Right.

The rabbi, the Jewish teachers talk about how with the rainbow, every time you see a rainbow in the sky means that’s a generation that God could have sent the flood on. And so he put the rainbow to remind himself, don’t flood this generation. And so we tend to look at Noah’s ⁓ generation, be like, obviously they’re horrible. Like we can’t even fathom how bad they were, but.

If we see a rainbow in the sky, that means our generation could also be flooded and haven’t been. ⁓ we, especially, feel like my generation, our generation, as we read through history, we are so judgmental, how horrible they were, all these terrible things they did, and sin is sin. And we need to call it out. But we have our own issues in this generation and we have our own sin that we need to deal with as well.

Speaker 2 (30:10) Yes, so true.

Something interesting about that bow as I was studying for ⁓ my chapter on Jonah, Noah, I keep switching their names. ⁓ When God put that bow in the sky, look at like if it’s a bow and arrow bow, look which way it’s the arrows would fly. So, I mean, it’d be even more ominous if it’s the other way, you know, if it’s upside down, if you think of an upside down

rainbow, then the arrows are pointed down at earth. That’s what happened with the flood. God shot his arrows, you know, the whole earth was under God’s judgment. But the bow is now pointed up. The only reason that we are not under God’s judgment is because there’s someone who took it for us. God’s arrow is pointed. ⁓

at Jesus. He’s the, you know, this is God’s, God’s not, he’s relenting just like he did for Nineveh. And I mean, you know, we could, we should have a sermon in 40 days. Like that really is a perpetual sermon.

Speaker 1 (31:21) Right, yes. That’s very true.

Speaker 2 (31:24) Yeah,

like read that again in your. Yours was a little different.

Speaker 1 (31:29) 40 more days and Nineveh will be overthrown. ⁓

Speaker 2 (31:31) Yeah,

so it’s like that should be on loop 40 more days and the world will perish. 40 more days and my city will be ash. know, like that is really a truer perspective on where we stand before God, that our sin deserves God’s wrath and His judgment. I feel like we lose sight of that so quickly. Jesus’s commentary on ⁓

in Matthew when he’s talking about the people of Noah’s generation, he describes them as, you know, they’re having parties and weddings and, you know, the mood from God’s perspective is he’s looking down and seeing only evil all the time. But on the ground level, the mood is like, let’s have a party to your drink back another time. And I feel like that’s true for us as well. Like we don’t even we’re not even recognizing that we

are deserving of God’s judgment. And most of the world isn’t. They’re like, it’s a party, tip your drink back. Let’s just keep going on with life. ⁓ so the best possible thing we can do is to get this perspective of we deserve God’s judgment. He is the judge and He has promised judgment coming. there’s really like we tend to divide up the world in different

little slices of humanity, but we’re all one race. We all deserve, we all are descendants of Adam and Eve. We all deserve this judgment and anyone who repents can have God’s mercy. That’s amazing.

Speaker 1 (33:08) It’s interesting in Jonah four, Shannon, what you said about we’re all God’s people. I forget exactly how you said it, but in Jonah four 11, God comes to Jonah and says, should I not have compassion on this city? There more than 1,000, 120,000 people. And in the Hebrew, it’s 12 myriads. So like the word 12, when it makes.

immediately make you think Israel and the 12 tribes. So Jonah, these people are like you and the word people is not the word you would expect, it’s Adam. So it’s like human.

Speaker 2 (33:43) Adam, like Adam from the dirt, right? ⁓

Speaker 1 (33:47) These people

like you don’t know they’re beings.

Speaker 2 (33:49) He’s

humanizing them, Yes.

Speaker 1 (33:52) We’re all in this, in one sense, we’re all in the same boat. We need a savior. And Jonah, how can you, you need a savior, they need a savior. Can you not rejoice and allow me to have compassion on these people who are just like you?

Speaker 2 (33:56) We’re all in the same boat.

Yes,

exactly. Yeah, I think, you know, if you look at the Old Testament, your tendency is to see that God chose one nation and it’s extreme favoritism, like he pours out his blessing on Israel at the exclusion of everyone else. But this story really flies in the face of that.

This is a story of God loving his enemies and pouring out his mercy on them and wanting to do that. He even sent a messenger to go invite them like to repent. want it. It’s like, like we said last time, his mercy is pent up. is he longs to show his mercy on humanity, not just his children. And so we need to have that kind of attitude to like humanize the people.

that we are disgusted with. Like they are the human race. They too bear God’s image and he longs to show mercy for them. So the end of the book, closes with there’s Jonah’s out of town. He’s left town. I don’t know if he found some hill or something to watch from. he’s watching to see, are they going to have judgment? And you know, God’s relented of that. And there’s some plant that

gives him shade that God appoints all throughout the book. God appoints things. He appoints the, he hurls the storm. He appoints the fish. Now he appoints the plant to grow up and then he appoints a little worm, eat the plant up. And so Jonah goes from being super pleased to super mad. ⁓ you know, he’s pleased that he has shade with this plant. He’s super mad when he does not have the plant. And then God responds.

saying you cared about the plant. So may I not care about the great city of Nineveh? Like you loved this plant.

Speaker 1 (36:09) You up in 24 hours.

Speaker 2 (36:11) You cared about this thing. You loved your little plant. You look at you’re so selfish, Jonah. You so love your own comfort. You love you know, the only thing in this whole story that he’s gotten excited about is some shade from a plant. He’s like, come on. Look at the disproportion with that. You’re so excited about this plant. Could you not be excited that a whole city of people are now not going to receive God’s wrath and judgment? Like, could you get a little bit excited about that?

And God is contrasting, you care about the plant. So may I not care about the Ninevites? Which is like 12 myriads of people, that how you put it? Like 12 myriads of people who are just like you.

Speaker 1 (36:54) And God characterizes them as not knowing their right from their left. So they’re spiritually childlike. Jonah, they haven’t been given my scripture. They don’t have a relationship with me. I’m not in covenant with them. They know nothing. Jonah, they are spiritual children. Can I not have compassion on a spiritual child who doesn’t have what you have? The training, the knowledge, the scripture.

And they are actually repenting.

Speaker 2 (37:26) Yeah, I love that idea of looking at sinners as children. They don’t know better. haven’t, you know, like a child, like if I ever am going to show compassion on somebody, it’s going to be a child. You know, it’s like even, but if there’s ever a time that we’re going to have compassion for someone, it’s a child. They don’t know better. This isn’t like,

They’re not even like their prejudices aren’t even fully developed. They’re not, you know, maybe their nation is my enemy, but they aren’t my enemy. Of course, I’m going to welcome a child. And that’s how we’re to see like God sees these people that way. They’re just like you, Jonah. They just, didn’t have the advantages you did. They didn’t have the parents who taught me about you. didn’t, they didn’t, weren’t given my laws. They weren’t given the, the

opportunities and the blessings that you have. so, I mean, Erica, you and me, we’ve both grown up in Christian families. We’ve from childhood heard the scriptures and that is like the biggest advantage that, you know, I mean, you could talk about wealth as an advantage. You could talk about a lot of things as an advantage, my biggest, if you look at all of like life as eternal, my biggest advantage is hearing about Jesus as a child, you know? And so

Do you feel like that’s what God is asking Jonah to consider here?

Speaker 1 (38:52) Yeah, I think that’s a very good way to put it. Like, look how you were raised versus how they were raised. And the point of God’s choosing Israel was to be a light to the nation so that Assyria would have Israel to look at and say, tell me about your God. Why do you live this way? Well, you’re not doing that. And so the world is covered in darkness. Israel’s to be this light that draws people.

Speaker 2 (39:17) Asidiana Health.

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (39:18) They’re

supposed to be that light, Joan, of course you have things that they don’t. So don’t expect them to do what I’ve called you to do. They don’t have that upbringing that you have, but you’re to teach them, you’re to show them, and you’re to have mercy when they fail.

Speaker 2 (39:37) Yeah, yeah. I’ve interviewed a couple people lately who have, you know, someone who it was difficult for them to welcome them into their family or into their church, a very sinful person, you know, someone that represented something they never wanted for their family. ⁓ And yet where God stirred their heart with love for this, this

someone so other than them to see the connection, the ⁓ humanity in this other person and look at their childhood. They didn’t have the advantages that you did to know about God and walk in his ways. so, ⁓ even look at the story of Rahab. That’s another chapter in this book. She was welcomed into Israel and became one of the mothers of Jesus. That’s our God. ⁓

He is a welcome of outsiders. He brings us in to his family. He doesn’t just bring us in as, know, ⁓ rehab was at the beginning. She’s on the outside of their camp. Well, at some point she’s welcomed in because she married an Israelite and she became, she’s part of the lineage that leads to Jesus. It such a great honor. And at the beginning of the story, she’s a prostitute. So like, this is God, this is his mercy. He loves bringing outsiders in.

This is a whole city full of people that he is bringing in to his family. That’s a beautiful story. And how do we respond to it? That’s really the question. So Erica, how can we live like this story is true?

Speaker 1 (41:14) I honestly going back and trying to look, okay, where have I responded like Jonah? Where have I been mad, Lord, because you showed mercy. Yeah, it’s my oldest is a typical oldest. And obviously as a parent, you do, I’m learning, you do get a little bit easier as the kids age. And so the youngest gets away with things, the oldest tenant. And it’s a huge struggle for her.

that I would have gotten in trouble for that. And it’s like, yes, you’re right, because I was learning and I’m still learning, but I have learned this is not a battle worth fighting. And have compassion, child, have some mercy. I think we need, as a society, as a generation, can we not have mercy? A few years ago, I was struggling with some relationships and I’ve been very hurt by a couple of women that were very close to me.

Speaker 2 (41:52) Yeah.

Speaker 1 (42:13) And I remember one day finally praying like, Lord, let me see where I’m broken and let me see where they’re broken so that I realize they’re hurting me, but it’s out of their own wounds. But I need to know I’m just as wounded. So let me have compassion on them, but let me understand myself where I’m wounded so when I hurt somebody else, I realize I screwed up. But help me to see these people as wounded people who love you, but aren’t perfect.

Speaker 2 (42:43) Yeah, my friend gave me some advice like that. I was hurting over a relationship once someone had really wounded me. And she said, you know, Shannon, as I listen to this story, this other woman

You have some things in common. know, you’re both really, ⁓ godly women. know, you’re both really strong personalities. You’re both really, you know, serving in so many beautiful ways. And I get it that you’re hurt by her, but I wonder if there’s more commonality in the two of you. You you feel like she’s your enemy. You feel like she’s so opposed to you, but, there’s so much opposition, but what she invited me to do is to picture myself on my knees next to this woman.

at the foot of the cross and bring both of us, you know, both of us to Him. Like see the humanity, see that shared humanity. And I feel like that is a key for empathy. it’s like empathy and compassion are the opposite of judgment, right? Mercy is the opposite of judgment. And so look at how God demonstrates that in this story. May I not care? He cares about them. Not because He’s

Speaker 1 (43:28) Yeah, that’s a great picture.

Speaker 2 (43:54) like them, but he groups all of us into the same humanity. We’re all fallen. We’re all in need of his mercy. And so he puts Jonah, you know, together with an invites and I care for you. care for them. We’re, all one people. So how do we live like this too? It’s by showing mercy to those who need it. think that’s really

That’s really God’s heart. That’s what he’s inviting Jonah to. We don’t know how Jonah responds and we don’t know how we’re going to respond either. It’s a question. It’s something to be challenged with. So Erica, thank you so much. What a blessing to unpack the story with you.

Speaker 1 (44:35) It is truly my pleasure Shannon. Thank you for asking.

Speaker 2 (44:37) I learned so much.