Shannon Popkin (00:03.774) Well, it’s such a joy to have my friend Katie Reed with us today. Katie is an author and a speaker and a Bible teacher. She’s the host of the Martha and Mary show. She wrote, has written several books, including Made Like Martha. And we’re going to talk today about Katie’s brand new book, God, What Do I Do? So Katie, welcome so much to Live Like It’s True. Katie M. Reid (00:28.216) Thanks so much Shannon, it’s a treat to be here today. Shannon Popkin (00:31.616) It’s great. It’s always fun to have a guest who I like know you personally, you know, we’ve we live about an hour and a half away from each other. Katie lives in the town that I lived in years ago, Mount Pleasant, Michigan. My husband and I lived there for, I don’t know, just two years. So and your husband is a pastor, right? And how old are the kids? Katie M. Reid (00:56.046) That’s right. Katie M. Reid (00:59.63) Okay, so this always feels like a test. Our oldest daughter is 21 and then our son who just graduated is 18. We have an almost 17 year old, a 12 year old and a 9 year old. Shannon Popkin (01:02.121) I know. Shannon Popkin (01:12.504) Okay, great. you also are working as a special, tell me, remind me what your position is. Katie M. Reid (01:20.846) Yeah, so I just wrapped it up actually, but I went back after 20 years back into the public school and for the last two years I was a resource room teacher in middle school. And I’m pretty sure Shannon and said, I will never teach middle school. And God just has a way sometimes of when we say, I will never, he’s like, oh really? Shannon Popkin (01:42.306) funny. Wrap it up like does that mean just for the summer or are you going back? Are you not going back? Katie M. Reid (01:47.884) Nope, I am done. And actually Shannon, I haven’t even told you this, but I was going to. We are actually moving to Florida. And so my husband’s last sermon is coming up and we’re feel reassigned to a church down there. And so of course, Shannon, I need my own Bible study more than ever before. God, what do I do? And it’s becoming quite comical. Shannon Popkin (02:01.395) my goodness. Shannon Popkin (02:08.565) Yeah. Katie M. Reid (02:14.666) as my friends keep reminding me, it sounds like you really need your Bible stuff. Shannon Popkin (02:19.418) that’s so funny. Yeah, so the subtitle of this book, hold on, let me grab it. Shannon Popkin (02:28.119) So the subtitle of this book, it’s a Bible study. The title is God, What Do I Do? A Bible study on Judges 1 through 5 about making wise decision in uncertain times. Oh my goodness, you guys have had to make some really big decisions lately. I had no idea. Katie M. Reid (02:45.272) I know, I know friend. Sorry to spring it on you on the air, but I… Shannon Popkin (02:48.777) No, it’s okay. That’s great. So where in Florida? Katie M. Reid (02:53.87) Most likely the Jacksonville area. The church down there has campuses from the bottom of Georgia all the way to Orlando. And so we will see where God lands us. yes, it has definitely been a journey. And so I have had to go back to those decisions that I can make because there’s lots of them. We both are recovering control girls, right Shannon? And so… Shannon Popkin (03:18.935) Yes, we are. Katie M. Reid (03:22.006) There’s so much I cannot control right now, but I can cling to these six decisions I talked about in the Bible study. And the first one in the introductory lesson is the decision to remember. Because when we remember God’s faithfulness in the past, it helps inform our present so we can walk into our future with maybe a little less trepidation. Shannon Popkin (03:44.866) So as you’re making these decisions about moving, because that’s the one big move, but I’m sure there’s 100 other moves that come along with that, like where are you going to live and where are kids going to go to school and all that sort of thing. So how is remembering helping you make these decisions? What are you remembering? What are you looking back at? Katie M. Reid (04:02.766) I think a lot of it is kind of this phrase God has given us is I will provide on every side, you know, which we see in scripture. I think he says that to King David at some point. And so just looking back on how he has provided in the past for us, whether that’s financially or relationally, you know, job wise, it’s like where it reminds me of the Israelites when God told them to set up the memorial stones. so that when their children walk by, like, hey, what are those stones? And they would recount how God parted the Red Sea and how he parted the Jordan River and made a way where there seemed to be no way. So not only am I remembering what he’s done through scripture, but also what he’s done in our lives personally and in our friends’ lives, because when others testify to his goodness, that can fortify our faith as well. Shannon Popkin (04:37.452) Yeah. Shannon Popkin (04:59.467) Yeah, that’s so good. Are those called Ebenezer stones, think, know, stones of remembrance, right? And I think Hebrew people have a way of, they use standing stones. So they set up the stones in a particular way to help them remember. And that’s so good. It’s so good to make the decision that I’m gonna go into this decision making process remembering. And so you’ve got like six of these ways Let’s see, have six decisions that we make even when we don’t know what we’re gonna do. So like, I think we get so fogged out and so like, what am I gonna do? What am I gonna do? And so you’re giving us tangible ways. But how did you come up with these? Did you just, know, happen like, is there some arrangement in this section of the Bible that led you to these six? Katie M. Reid (05:54.242) Well, Shannon, funny story. So our friend Janair, you know, who has edited many of your books, I think at one of our writing retreats, she actually helped me because I knew I wanted to do this study on judges. But we were trying to come up with the hook because judges is kind of an obscure book. It’s actually kind of violent and a little bit, you know, discouraging at times. And so kind of this idea of decision making came to the forefront. Shannon Popkin (06:00.983) Uh-huh. Katie M. Reid (06:23.028) And as I went through each, you know, we go through Judges 1 through 5, I looked at scripture. I’m like, okay, God, what is the decision in each of these that they needed to make and we can make in our lives? And it became clear. And Shannon, just a funny thing is I love acronyms. Like maybe part of it’s being an education, everything is an acronym. In fact, when you get around some teachers, people can be like, we don’t even know what you’re talking about because you’re just using acronyms. Shannon Popkin (06:44.309) Yeah. Shannon Popkin (06:50.967) Yes, this is true. Katie M. Reid (06:52.652) But as I got done with these six decisions, they spell out the name Robert, which really means nothing, but it helps me remember it. And so I’m like, I didn’t even mean to do that, but here we go. Shannon Popkin (07:07.339) Robert. Okay, well, we don’t want to give it all away. So we’re going to leave Robert in the book. Okay. You can meet him there. But you know, these are decisions that are coming out of scripture as you were wrestling with judges one through five. And you know, I think it’s interesting that you chose judges as a backdrop for decision making because judges like the theme throughout the book of judges is everybody doing right in their own eyes. Everyone who is, and from the beginning of time, Adam and Eve first took fruit from the tree of good judgment. It was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and God wanted to be the one to give them judgment. They’re like, no, no, no, I wanna take this fruit in my own hands. I wanna decide for myself, just like the people of Judges, what is right in my eyes. And Eve started by saying, you know what, this fruit. looks pretty good to me, even though God says it’s going to make me die. I think I will eat it anyway. so, and that’s really the course of history and the fall of mankind is hinges on us deciding what is right, us deciding what is good and leading ourselves away from God instead of deferring to God and depending on him to show us what is good. It’s what the people were doing in the book of Judges. So just tell us how you put those together, know, judges and decision making. Katie M. Reid (08:32.524) Yeah, you know, I think a lot of it actually shows us what not to do. And sometimes I can look back at my own life, Shannon, I’m sure you can too. And sometimes when we get it wrong, we actually learn more from. I do not want to do that again. And so we do see God’s people, know, they’re starting to enter the promised land and possess it. Moses, their leader has passed away and then he had passed leadership on to Joshua and now Joshua has passed away and now they’ve got a Shannon Popkin (08:45.526) Yeah. Katie M. Reid (09:01.976) figure it out, right? It’s kind of putting their faith to the test. And there’s some things that get right and there’s a lot they get wrong. But throughout it, you see God’s mercy and kindness to them, even though sometimes it can feel harsh, the things he does, it was because he was so passionate about them being set apart, giving him glory and doing what was right, even though when the judge would pass away, they would go Shannon Popkin (09:03.371) Yeah. Katie M. Reid (09:31.138) back to that cycle of rebelling and then repenting and returning and then rebelling and repenting and returning on and on they go. sometimes Shannon, as I was studying this, I was discouraged because I was like, I want them to get it right. They keep doing the wrong thing. But you have to put it in the context of all of scripture. It’s pointing to Jesus and how on our own, We cannot get it right. know, when left to ourselves and our own, you know, devices, we’re going to mess it up. And we desperately need a permanent deliverer that we find in Jesus, not just those, that temporary deliverance. Shannon Popkin (10:15.351) That’s really good. So just help me with the timeline here. The book of Judges comes right after Joshua. Joshua comes right after, you know, God bringing his people out of slavery in Egypt, and Joshua’s leading them into the land. And so this is before they have kings, and instead of kings, they’ve got judges. So just help us put that in, you know, what is a judge? What do they do? How’s this working out for the people of God? Katie M. Reid (10:45.858) Yeah, so in my research, what I found is that some of the judges could have actually been alive at the same time, and they were kind of in charge of a specific area. So it wasn’t like, you know, Ehud was the you know, the judge of all of Israel or all, you know, it was kind of regional. And they were, you know, in some ways like a moral compass, but also like a military. presence in some way too. So it’s kind of this blend as we see in Deborah in Judges 4. She was a prophetess and a judge and yeah, so it was kind of like these temporary people to remind leaders to remind God’s people of what he said and what they were supposed to do and they would give them deliverance from their enemies as well. And so it’s kind of this unique position. like a mediator, I guess, in some ways. And it would often say, you the land would have peace for 40 years, like while that judge was ruling over them, or the land had peace for 80 years, and then the judge would die, and then they would start rebelling, and they had forgotten very quickly that life was much better when they were doing things God’s way. Shannon Popkin (12:04.247) Yeah, so I mean, they’re in a theocracy where God is their king, you know, they’re following, he’s leading them, they’re following. And yet the judges are the ones, they’re, you know, even militarily, they’re deferring to God for good judgment. They’re coming to God and they’re saying, this is what God would say, this is what God, this is how God would lead you and not always very well because some of these judges, they’re not, you know, they’re like you’ve said, they’re like actually really poor. role models, but the one we’re going look at today is a really great one. Her name is Deborah. And it’s interesting that it’s a female woman, a female woman. That’s redundant. But yeah, it’s interesting that Deborah is a woman. And like you said, she’s both a prophetess and a judge. What’s the difference between those two? Katie M. Reid (12:54.562) Well, in my research, what I found, Sheinan, is that a prophetess is really kind of like God’s mouthpiece, like speaking, you know, God’s wisdom to the people. And then the judges we talked about was kind of that moral and military, you know, kind of overseer. And the nice thing about judges one through five is those judges, from what I can tell, behave themselves. So I don’t get into the more, you know, rebellious ones, but it was very interesting. Shannon Popkin (13:18.037) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Katie M. Reid (13:23.938) that a woman was in this position because Shannon, we know back in those times, like women did not have those places of honor. And so I think it says a lot about who Deborah was and her character. And I remember when I was in Israel in 2018, our guide made the comment, he said, you know, this was very odd, you know, in this time that a woman was in this position. And he said, you know, we can pretty accurately probably speculate that maybe the men weren’t doing their job, you know, and God was like, okay, I’m putting, you know, this woman in, but yet we also see in Judges 4 and 5, this collaboration between Barack and Deborah, where yes, she was put into this position that carried huge weight and authority, and yet she collaborated with Barack and didn’t steamroll and didn’t also didn’t shrink back. And Shannon, I think you and I have seen this happen in kind of the sphere we’re in is sometimes there’s people kind of steamrolling their way. Well, I’m going to lead and I’m going to do this. And then we also see women that maybe have these amazing gifts, but are afraid to offer them because maybe how they’ll be missing, you know, it’ll be misinterpreted. And so I’m all for the middle ground. It’s like, where is that place where we’re not steamrolling and controlling our way, but we’re also, you know, being faithful with our gifts and not living in fear. And so I think we see that in Deborah of just operating with wisdom. And I just believe she had to know God’s voice for one to be in that position and then also to, you know, remind Barack of what was true and what God had told him. And isn’t that a a good friend to do that? Shannon Popkin (15:12.425) Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, she, yes, yeah. You know, she’s stewarding her influence and she’s not stepping out of God’s design for women because you and I are both complementarian, which means there are people in the world who would actually use this very story about Deborah to say, look. It’s just culture that’s imposing these differences between men and women. Women can do everything that men can do. It’s been that way from the beginning. God created them equal. But I look at the creation story and actually see differences, you know? And we did a whole, if you’re interested in thinking more about this, the distinction between men and women and where this complementarian mindset comes from, I did a whole series on Genesis 1 through 3, and we looked very carefully at the differences. baked into this story. It’s like you can’t move the pieces. The reality is that God did not put his hand into the dirt and create a man and then create a woman. He put his hands into the dirt and he created a man. And then from that man, he took a rib and he created a woman and he created her for him, from him and for him. And they were exactly the opposite, but then the pieces fit together. so women and men are different. right? And so we’re looking at the story playing out in the people of God. It’s rooted in God’s creation story. God made men and women different. And I think, like you said, normative, the normative ideal is just like how Adam was given this command to keep, to be the keeper of the garden. He was to be the protector, the provider, the keeper of the garden and Eve, her role was more of a nurturing. see this just even, look at, like our bodies tell a parable. Men have more muscle, they are taller, they are stronger. Women, look at our bodies, they’re softer. They’re easier to cuddle a baby and we have wombs, we’re the nurturers of life. Even the way that our, I was, Shannon Popkin (17:29.663) love this Mary Kassian talks about how we have a certain bend in our arm that’s better for holding a baby. And so we, there are physical, tangible differences, parables in our own bodies that call out these distinctions. And yet there are times when men are absent. And we see that in today’s world. We see our men, like in that story in the Garden of Eden, we have a woman who’s taking control. She’s like reaching for the fruit. She doesn’t even, She didn’t even talk to her husband before she does it. She reaches out, she takes the fruit. This is the biggest decision. I’m sorry, I’m going way, I’m going too far into this. I didn’t mean to, but I get so excited about it. She’s reaching out, she’s taking control. She didn’t just take that fruit, she took control and she gave some to her husband and he was with her the whole time. And there’s a New Testament text that talks about how Eve was deceived, but Adam wasn’t. He is standing there watching this happened. He’s not being deceived by the serpent. He sees it for what it is. and he says and does nothing. And so we have women taking control. We have men passively just standing on the sidelines doing nothing. And this is what ushered us into the fall. And this is still how the fall plays out into our lives. And so that’s what we have in this, Judges chapter four. have, it sounds like the men were just scared. They were just, you know, afraid. And it was a terrible time. They had been, they were, they, well, I’m gonna actually have you read, let’s just read verses one through three and we’ll talk about the situation that they were in and then what Deborah was called to do. Katie M. Reid (18:58.327) Yeah. Katie M. Reid (19:11.982) Sure, so this is Judges 4, 1-3 and I’m reading out of the Christian Standard Bible. Katie M. Reid (19:41.038) 20 years. Shannon Popkin (19:42.655) Okay, so this is not a good time. Katie M. Reid (19:45.256) Not at all. And Shannon, these iron chariots, I talk about quite a lot in this study because these were high tech weapons on wheels and the Hebrews were mostly on foot. And so this was like not an even match. And we talk about in Judges 1 that Judah and Simeon, God said, know, Judah, you’re to go first into the land. And Shannon Popkin (20:04.983) Mm-mm. Katie M. Reid (20:15.198) he and Simeon were doing really well fighting and obeying the Lord. And then here come the iron chariots and they shrunk back from full obedience. But Shannon throughout scripture, even before we get to judges, God told them what to do with these, you know, with horses, like, you know, some trust in horses, some trust in chariots, but we trust in the name of the Lord our God. And so it was almost like they got distracted by what their eyes could see. instead of focusing on what God had said and what he had promised. And the same is true for us Shannon. Like for us with our move right now, this area we’re moving to is quite affluent but we feel called to it. And I remember just talking to the Lord about, this doesn’t really work out on paper just in case you don’t get any my help. Like see it doesn’t really add up. And he said, Katie is that your iron chariot? Is that what’s gonna get your eyes off me as the provider and the orchestrator? Shannon Popkin (20:48.951) Mm-hmm. Katie M. Reid (21:14.88) And so here we see too that, here are these iron chariots again, and they were a very intimidating thing that would make you scared. That’s normal that you would be scared by it. But I think sometimes again, what we see, you know, blinds us to what is unseen and what is more sure than even what we see. Shannon Popkin (21:37.664) Mm-hmm. Well, and it’s one thing for these chariots, these iron chariots to be in the hands of good men who want to product and who want to do good for their people, but these are evil men. These are the Canaanites and all throughout the Bible were warned, these are the enemies of God. These are oppressive. It says that Sisera, he’s the commander of the army. He oppressed the people of God. cruelly, he’s a cruel, evil man, and he’s got weapons of mass destruction at his disposal, 900 of them. This is not a fair fight, and an evil man is in charge. And I think, you sometimes I think our answer is, right, we Christians, we gotta rise up, we gotta get people in the White House, we gotta, you know, set everything straight, we gotta be… forceful and put things right because there are evil people in the world that we need to protect. And I am not, that is not wrong. I’m not arguing against that, but that is not our hope, right? Our hope is, our answer is not in turning to ourselves, it’s in turning to God, which is exactly what the people had failed to do. know, those verses that you just read repeated the refrain that we hear in judges. They did what was right in the eyes and I’m sorry, the people of Israel again did what was evil in the sight of the Lord. They’re doing exactly what Adam and Eve did in the garden. I’ll decide for myself what is good and what is evil. This tree of knowledge of good and evil. I’ll just pluck whatever fruit looks good to me. I don’t need you God. I won’t defer to you. I reject you. I ignore you. And so this is the pattern and God is not okay with his people doing that. and he has sold them into slavery, into the hands of this guy, Jabin, king of Canaan. And he’s got this commander, Sisra, who’s not a good man. There’s harshness, there’s cruelty. Okay, let’s, time for some good news. How about, okay? So why don’t you read for us verses four through 10 of Judges 4. Katie M. Reid (23:50.057) That’s… right. Katie M. Reid (23:58.309) Deborah, a prophetess and the wife of Labadoth, was judging Israel at the time. She would sit under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim. The Israelites went up to her to settle disputes. She summoned Barak, son of Abinuab from Kadesh and Naphtali, and said to him, Hasn’t the Lord the God of Israel commanded you? Go deploy the troops on Mount Tabor, and take with you 10,000 men from the Neph- Nephiles and Zebulonites. Then I will lure Sisra, commander of Jabin’s army, his chariots, and his infantry at the Wadi Kishon to fight against you, and I will hand him over to you. Verse 8, Barak said to her, if you will go with me, I will go. But if you will not go with me, I will not go. I will gladly go with you, she said, but you will receive no honor on the road you are about to take, because the Lord will sell Sisra to a woman. So Deborah got up and went with Barak to Kadesh. Barak summoned Zebulun and Naphtheli to Kadesh. 10,000 men followed him and Deborah also went with him. Shannon Popkin (25:03.167) Okay, good job on all those weird names and things. But did well. So what’s surprising here in this story? Katie M. Reid (25:06.976) I was just trying, Shannon. can’t say if they were accurate or not. Katie M. Reid (25:16.674) Well, I think there’s a lot. I think it’s interesting how Deborah is reminding Barack of something it sounds like that God has already told him. And as we talked about earlier, isn’t that a good friend that can say, hey, hasn’t God said this? Hasn’t God promised this? And I love at the end of verse seven, how she’s reiterating what God said. So again, she knew God’s voice, right? To know what he said to him. And then she says that God had told Barak, I will hand him over to you. So not only is he saying go fight this guy who’s very intimidating, but the victory is sure. The victory is sure. And then Barak, I’m assuming here it’s out of fear. He says, okay, I’ll do it if you go with me. And haven’t you done that with a friend? maybe. you see a famous person and you feel nervous and you want their autograph, like, Hey, will you come with me? Let’s go do this. Or even how women will pick, Hey, will you come to the bathroom with me? I we, we do that all the time, but I think it kind of goes back to what you were talking about, even in the garden, like two are better than one. And sometimes we need to borrow courage from each other. And I’m inferring this a little bit, but I think he knew God was with her because of her position. Shannon Popkin (26:32.78) Yeah. Katie M. Reid (26:39.436) You know, it’s probably like, hey, if you come, think then, you know, God is on our side. And then she says she’ll go. And here’s a verse that until I started studying, I would have interpreted wrong, Shannon. But in verse nine, Deborah says, I’ll gladly go with you, but you will receive no honor on the road you’re about to take because the Lord will sell Sisera to a woman. And that’s actually not talking about Deborah. That’s talking about JL. who really, I’m not gonna give it all away, but she’s the one who takes care of Cicero once and for all. And so I also love that about Deborah is she’s not a one woman show. She’s a team player. She has this huge place of influence. She’s stewarding it well. She’s following God’s divine directives for her. And she’s making room because I think she knew God’s voice of what was gonna happen. I she was prophesied, really. as to what was going to happen, whether she knew it or not, or God had just said, hey, you know, the glory is going to go to this woman. And so there’s just a lot there. And then, you know, Barack then summons 10,000 men are following him. So talk about his influence is also massive because that has to be really scary to you’re risking the life of these men. But God has promised. the victory, but that doesn’t mean walking that out isn’t terrifying. Shannon Popkin (28:06.455) Absolutely. Okay, so let’s break down several of these surprising things because you just kind of do rapid fire about a hundred of them there. But let’s yeah, let’s kind of break them down little by little. the first, you we’ve already talked about the first surprising thing is this is a woman who is both a prophetess and a judge. And we see a woman who has gifts and she’s using them to the glory of God in a time that God called her to it. Katie M. Reid (28:12.366) Thank you. Shannon Popkin (28:36.543) So I don’t know if she like sat under this palm tree. sounds lovely, you know? But she, I see too, there’s kind of, I think it’s surprising that she summoned Barak. Like he’s the, apparently the, what is he, the leader, the commander of the army? I don’t know. Did we get his title? Katie M. Reid (28:58.892) That’s what I’ve, yeah, he’s the commander, you know, the military leader, yeah. Shannon Popkin (29:02.359) of the Israel. Okay. So he’s the commander and here is this woman summoning him. Like that’s unusual, right? You would think if here’s another surprising thing. Here is a commander who has been told you’re going to have the victory. It’s all yours. All you do. Here’s what you do. Here’s the plan. You get together these 10,000 soldiers, you walk in, I’m going to take care of the rest. You know, basically is what he’s saying. He’s got the victory flag ready to wave. know, God has given him the victory. And I think there’s a surprise in that too, because we don’t always have that. We don’t always know how, I I don’t think we do know how things are going to turn out. Ultimately, we know that the victory is ours and that… we will be entering our eternal rest, our eternal promised land in heaven. But in the here and now, we don’t have these promises like they did, that we were gonna, you know, God was gonna clear the land and give it to them. And so on the one hand, I think it’s surprising that here’s this man has been given God’s clear instruction. If you step forward, I’m gonna give you victory. And he’s like, no, thank you. No, on the one hand, I think that’s surprising. On the other hand, I don’t because of these 900 iron chariots. We can see his fear. And yet, I don’t see that in Deborah. She’s calling him. And what is she doing that’s right here, Katie? Katie M. Reid (30:41.646) Well, I have to believe she feared the Lord. You know, that she, and that’s where you say the beginning of wisdom, right? Is the fear of the Lord. And so even though it doesn’t specifically say that, her actions show that. And again, I’m inferring a little bit here, Shannon, but in verse five, I love how it says she would sit under the palm tree. And to me, that’s a picture of like sitting under God’s palm, his own palm, like his sovereignty and kind of that umbrella. I’m sure it was scorching hot. And so here she is sitting under that. The other thing about this is they’re talking about Mount Tabor and in the Jezreel Valley is where this battle took place. And so not only did the enemy have these weapons on wheels, they had a view where they could look down and see the Israelite army. it was like they were sitting ducks. And so I have to believe that Barack is like, okay, you said I have the victory, but I don’t see the way. I don’t see how. You know, but I think he knew Deborah’s position as prophetess and judge and you better listen. And God does something amazing. I’m not going to give it all away, but just with creation, taking charge of creation in a way to win the battle that they couldn’t see in that moment, Shannon. And so we were talking about this too. Shannon Popkin (31:48.599) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Shannon Popkin (32:08.298) Yes. Katie M. Reid (32:09.622) God provides on the way as you obey. It’s not always like, hey, here’s the victory, here’s your bullet pointed list. It’s like, I’m promising this is what’s coming. But it’s just like with Israelites too, God promised the promised land to them, but yet they still had to battle for what God had given them. And so that’s a lesson for us too, that we have to participate in our faith. Shannon Popkin (32:13.655) Mm. Yes. Shannon Popkin (32:27.381) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Katie M. Reid (32:36.406) And yes, these things are reality, but we have a part to play by God’s strength and with his help. Shannon Popkin (32:42.679) It’s so true. I love in chapter five, verse seven, this is this song that they’re singing after they get the victory. And Deborah says, I, Deborah, arose a mother in Israel. She describes herself as a mother. she is a woman who wants to remind her leader of what God has promised because she is for these children of Israel. They are living in oppression. This is horrible. This king is oppressing them cruelly, and she’s concerned. She’s a mother concerned for the children. She’s protective. She’s nurturing of these children, and that is her battle cry. Like we have got to do something, if not for our own sakes, but for the sake of others, for the sake of the children. And here is this father, a military father, Who is scared? He’s scared to death. And I mean, when you, you know, I think you have pictures in your book from Mount Tabor, right? Of when you visited there and yeah, I mean, it looks like, whoa, this is a really, like we can say, yeah, God invited them to the victory, but like, this looks like, whoa, this is not gonna go well. And you know, a side note, I think it’s so interesting that in Hebrews 11, it’s this hall of faith where God lists out all these people who did these great things of faith. Barak is mentioned, which is astonishing. You know, he is looking so wimpy here. I’ll go if you come. He does not seem like this man of great faith. And clearly he wasn’t. But this woman influenced him to Be a man of great faith. She stewarded her influence. I love that about this. She does not come in as this like, I’m gonna bulldoze you over. I’m gonna take control here. You’re doing nothing. No, what she does is she comes in. I think this is really beautiful. She reminds him of what God has already said. She states it out. Has not the Lord commanded you? Didn’t he tell you? He gave you this plan, right? Shannon Popkin (34:58.281) And she kind of lists it all out. And I don’t know if maybe she was the prophetess that God used to deliver that message to Barack. We don’t know. But somehow she knew God had told him and he was doing nothing about it. And so, I mean, you’re married to a pastor, Katie, or you’ve got lots of opportunities where you have influence with leaders. What’s the encouragement for us there? Katie M. Reid (35:11.096) Right. Katie M. Reid (35:22.03) Well, going back to what you said about Deborah calling herself a mother, you know, what’s interesting is it says earlier on, it said she was the wife of Labadoe. But in some of the commentaries, they said that could actually be a region, like kind of saying Shannon, the wife of Byron City, you know I Byron Center, you know what I mean? So we don’t know for sure if she was married or had kids. She could have been a single woman. We’re not sure about that. But that heart. Shannon Popkin (35:36.759) Mm. Shannon Popkin (35:40.599) Right, right, right. Shannon Popkin (35:47.36) Okay. Katie M. Reid (35:51.8) to protect and to call out. And I had a situation the other day with one of my children where I was feeling kind of intimidated by what their response might be. Shannon, has that ever happened to you? And all of this, correct, because there’s no manual for that part of it. I mean, the Bible, of course. But I just felt kind of that Esther spirit in me where God is like, listen. Shannon Popkin (36:04.647) yes, yeah. Especially the older they get, Mm-hmm. Yes, yeah. Katie M. Reid (36:20.01) speak what is true, say it kindly yet straightforward and then walk away. Because sometimes we want to be liked more than we want our kids to be like Jesus and that’s just the honest truth. And so I said this thing and I walked away and you know what the situation didn’t necessarily change Shannon but something inside me did of just like I’m reminding this person I love of what is true. And later that day, we had a very positive interaction because it’s just like when your kids are toddlers and you set a parameter in whatever way you see fit, all of a sudden there can be peace in your home because you had the courage to give a timely word about what was true. And so that’s what I think about in this moment. It was actually very loving of Deborah to do that for Barack. I wonder, I remember reading that too in Hebrew is going like, why wasn’t Deborah? mentioned here, but you know, he did kind of rise to his leadership role, even though he needed a little handholding and a little extra encouragement. He did step into, I think, his identity and role that God had given him. And as wives and mothers and women of influence, we can do that for others around us, too. Shannon Popkin (37:27.884) Yeah. Katie M. Reid (37:42.646) not lording it over them, but when we give that timely word, it can really bolster them and give them the courage to step into their own territory that God has given them. Shannon Popkin (37:44.662) Yeah. Shannon Popkin (37:52.236) Yeah, well, I see this in my own marriage. When I’m super controlling and I’m micromanaging my husband telling him he’s doing it all wrong, if I’m judging him and look what you’re not doing, he puts up this protective shield around himself. He is not interested in my influence. But if I will be a wise woman and steward my influence with him and call out, look what God has already made clear. You know, and we need a leader in this situation and that is you. And I believe that God could use you powerfully in your work, in our church, in our family. I see these gifts he’s given you. I see this position that he has put you in. And I know it’s hard and I know you’re afraid, but I am calling you to remember what is true, to remember what God has already told us in his word. Rather than just taking over for him. If I will do that, I do, I call out the leader in my husband. we talked about the Garden of Eden. What if Eve had turned to Adam and said, hey, hey babe, what do you think? know, the snake is saying about this fruit, what do you think? And called out the leader in him and said, you know, did God give you some word about that? Like that would have been exactly right, you know? What did God say about this tree again? You know, this was your chance to lead us, tell us, what should we do? Katie M. Reid (39:09.762) Right. Yeah. Shannon Popkin (39:18.941) She didn’t. She took control. so Deborah is doing the opposite. She is not taking over for this army. She is calling out the leader. She’s his helper here. And she must have proven herself to not be a super controlling person because he wanted her. He wanted her with him. And so she is she’s not taking over the reins. She’s building him up. She’s stewarding his influence. And he does lead their army. Katie M. Reid (39:35.896) Right. Shannon Popkin (39:45.634) to this amazing victory. That’s why they sing the whole song. But I feel like, Katie, we shouldn’t just leave everybody hanging. Can you tell them what happens? And there’s a verse in that song that I think has some interesting details. Is that where you were going? Katie M. Reid (39:54.754) What? Katie M. Reid (40:03.15) Well, what I was going to say, I loved what you shared about the different ways you could speak to your husband, right? And get different results. And one thing I’ve been thinking about lately is how do we call people up versus call them out? And I think that’s what Deborah did with Barack. She called him up, you know, like, hasn’t God said this versus like, you idiot, what are you doing? You know, and sometimes when we call someone up, I mean, they can feel that conviction. Shannon Popkin (40:16.663) you Shannon Popkin (40:26.015) Yeah, yeah. Katie M. Reid (40:31.79) But I think he knew she was for him, not trying to be him, right? She was like, this is what we need to do. And then I also wish I had a little window into the battle. Like where was Deborah? Was she right by him? Was she on the sidelines? Was she like, you know, I don’t know if they had swords back then, like wielding a sword. But yeah, so Judges Five is all about, it’s a testimony song. Shannon Popkin (40:38.102) Mmm. Shannon Popkin (40:48.097) Yeah. Katie M. Reid (41:01.804) And that’s how they would pass their history down. And it’s really interesting because in verse four, it gives us this indication of different battles. says, Lord, when you came from Sair, when you marched from the fields of Edom, the earth trembled, the skies poured rain and the clouds poured water. And then it also talks, just gives us some details about this battle. And they also, it’s interesting, this song. they call some of the tribes out that did not help. So they’re testifying to the people that did help, but they’re also kind of testifying against those that didn’t step up and do what God had asked them to do, which I think is interesting, because I think when we think about testimony, we always think about something positive, but it was almost like in a courtroom, a testimony can also be like a judgment against those who didn’t do what they were supposed to do. Shannon Popkin (41:35.361) Yeah. Shannon Popkin (41:58.104) And yeah, and in verse 20, it says, stars fought from the heavens. The stars fought with Sisera. So you get the sense, like, I don’t know if there was, like, lightning, whatever, but here’s what we know. God controls the weather. And He had a plan. He led them exactly where He wanted them to. And there’s something that puts you at a disadvantage when you have a huge iron chariot and that is rain and mud and getting stuck. Right? So I think maybe they were the sitting ducks in this battle and nobody could have foreseen that. But see, we serve this God who has control that we haven’t even dreamed of having. And he has these commands for his people and we need to Katie M. Reid (42:29.355) Absolutely. Shannon Popkin (42:48.027) the kind of women who call, what did you say, call up leaders? Not calling out their flaws and their fear, but calling them up to what God has intended for them to do. So Katie, give us a way that you’re living like this story is true. As you pack up and move to Florida and make a hundred different decisions, how are you living like this is true? Katie M. Reid (43:12.184) Well, one of the things I talk about throughout the study is how God asked me very clearly to run for school board. And so I’ve been on the school board and it has felt very much like a Deborah situation. Like it was not something I had ever done. It was not something I was really comfortable doing, but God made it so clear. And so I’ve gone back to the story time and time again of like, okay, God, I need your wisdom. I want to fear you more than man. Will you help me to collaborate with other people that I might see very differently from? And I’ve just seen his faithfulness on display as when he calls you to a position, it doesn’t mean you’re going to be flawless at it. You can make a lot of mistakes, but there’s a grace there. for the situation. You some people think, I just don’t know how you’re doing that. I’m like, well, it’s only with a lot of prayer, you know, and the Lord leading. And so I just wonder with those listening right now, they might be in a position they never imagined. Maybe they’re caring for a parent that has dementia. Maybe they have a child with a mental health crisis. It fill in the blank. And I just think the story of Deborah is so comforting because we see a woman who feared the Lord, who got wisdom from him, who wasn’t steamrolling, wasn’t shrinking back, but wasn’t afraid either to enter into battle. And Shannon, so many times we can spend our time trying to avoid a battle or a trial that God has placed us in for actually our good, to prepare us for what’s coming. We don’t want to have a weak faith or a wimpy character, right? And so there are some battles that Shannon Popkin (44:56.939) Mm-hmm. Katie M. Reid (44:59.616) many of us are facing right now that are actually the way forward and we’re just trying to hightail it out there maybe like Barack like I don’t know did God really say this and so I think just that remembering that he is with us in the middle of it and he can provide a way out when it’s the right timing in a way that maybe we can’t see at all. Because maybe it hasn’t happened, because you’re right. It says the River Cachon swept them away. So it was a flood, right? It was raining down and you’re right, mud and them getting stuck. And that just wasn’t the case. Who knows? It could have been sunny skies when they went into battle. Prior to that. Shannon Popkin (45:22.475) That’s good. Shannon Popkin (45:39.404) Yeah, yep. Well, and I love your story about being on the school board. Like Deborah was a mother of Israel. You were a mother of Mount Pleasant, know? Rising up courageously to do something that was hard, that you didn’t feel comfortable with. God called you into it, and now you’re gonna be a mother in Florida, right? And where are we a mother? Where are we, for the sake of the children in our area, for the sake of… the goodness of mankind. Where are we to be a mother and call out in our leaders what is good and what is right and remind them of what God says is true. So let’s flip it around backward though, Katie. What are one of the false narratives that this story corrects? Katie M. Reid (46:25.678) Well, I think just that kind of that steamrolling, right? Like in order for me to be heard, I’ve got to make my voice loud. And I just think of all the faithful, praying grandmothers, right? And the people of influence. You think about presidents or pastors. It’s like sometimes the people next to them. Shannon Popkin (46:35.319) Mm-hmm. Shannon Popkin (46:40.673) Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Katie M. Reid (46:48.846) are the ones influencing them the most and they’re not the ones written about, just like we saw with Barack and Hebrews. And so don’t underestimate your influence, but don’t feel like you have to have a megaphone and kind of demand your way. I have been in many situations, Shannon, where I felt kind of invisible. And then someone will come up to me and say something like, I saw you over there. And I think, Shannon Popkin (46:52.385) Yes? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Shannon Popkin (47:05.874) Yes, yeah. Katie M. Reid (47:17.398) Again, I could have clamored for that position or I could trusted the Lord, you know, to make those connections happen. And I’m a work in progress for sure with all of that. But I think there’s a subtleness, like, are we going to sit under his palm and let him direct us? And there’s a time to speak and there’s a time to be silent, but there’s always a time to pray and ask for his wisdom and showcase our dependence on him through that prayer life. Shannon Popkin (47:47.831) Yes, absolutely. I love that. know, like mothers in particular can feel really forgotten and hidden. you know, the work of a child is, it’s a long game, you know, it’s like planting a tree, like you, you you plant it and you don’t see fruit for years. And it can feel really like less, less important. And yet what we’re seeing in Deborah’s story is she is a woman who had great influence. No, she wasn’t the commander of an army, but she was just faithfully doing what God had put in front of her sitting under her palm tree, giving her judgments from God. she got to influence a man to go into battle, a battle where they looked like sitting ducks, but she got to see God bring the victory. Praise God. So thank you, Katie, so much for leading us through this conversation, for writing this book. It’s called God, What Do I Do? It’s with Baker Books and the subtitle is A Bible Study on Judges 1-5 About Making Wise Decisions in Uncertain Times. Any instructions on where to get this book? Katie M. Reid (49:03.618) Yeah, it’s available wherever books are sold. And if you go to katiemreed.com forward slash judges, there’s lots of resources there. There’s a Bible study playlist and lock screens and scriptures for each week. And then this fall Shannon, Right Now Media is going to produce a video series to go along with it. So if people are looking for a fall Bible study, there will also be videos available then as well. Shannon Popkin (49:30.923) fantastic. All right. Well, thank you so much for joining us. Katie M. Reid (49:34.242) Thanks so much, Shannon.