Shannon Popkin (00:00) Well, we are privileged and blessed to have Beth Guckenberger with us today. Beth and her husband Todd live in Cincinnati, Ohio. They’re executive directors of the back-to-back ministries,

They lived in Monterrey, Mexico for 15 years as missionaries and between biological foster and adopted children, they’ve raised 11 kids. So Beth is also a full-time speaker and an author of over 16 books. I think 17 is coming out soon. So Beth, welcome to Live Like It’s True.

Beth Guckenberger (00:35) Thanks for having me, Shannon. I’m looking forward to our conversation.

Shannon Popkin (00:38) That’s a privilege. So we were just chatting before we hit record about how judgment and mercy has kind of been the backstory for you and where, you know, where the Lord has taken you and how he’s expanded your mindset maybe. So can you tell us a little bit about that? Like what was going on in your heart early on?

Beth Guckenberger (01:00) Yeah, I am. Thanks for asking. I I’m 52 years old. So I look back at and I’ve loved Jesus my whole life. I have memories, you know, I have first grade memories and second grade memories of memorizing chapters of the Bible like I have consumed my Bible for a long time and loved everything that came with church culture. I loved

every time we could be together with our church family, just a deep love of that community. And I was blind to some of the ways in which I was creating in my mind narratives about the way that people should be or not be. And it was evolving into judgment. But anyway, when I was a missionary, somebody passed along to us a Bible study called The Gospel Transformation. It now has another title, but it was written by

the founders of World Harvest Mission, which is an organization that has nothing to do with ours. And the tagline said something like, helping our people find their spiritual Achilles heel before the devil shows it to them. And it was about, it was encouraging small groups of people at that point, people in full-time ministry, to sit around in circles in what we might call today a confessional community. And…

One of the exercises, there was a Bible study where you filled in the blank and you looked at Bible verses, but one of the exercises you had to do every week was to confess the sins to one another that nobody sees. So things that just happened in your mind and people were confessing anxiety and fear and lust and envy and all the things you can’t see and we can put our best foot forward in front of people. And I remember.

what was probably very obvious to everyone around me, but was new information to me about me is I confess some sins of judgment. And as it came out of my mouth, sin sounds really ugly when you have to say it out loud. And I realized, wow, that really was in my mind. That really was impacting the way I was seeing someone. That really was impacting the way I was interacting with them. That really was impacting.

my willingness to engage with someone. The next week I came back, confess more, like it was like uncovering more judgment, more judgment. We were in that confessional community for about a year. And because I was a missionary living out of the country. I would go long periods of time without maybe seeing my, my friends. And in the aftermath of that year, I had friends who would say to me, something about you has changed. And

Shannon Popkin (03:31) Really.

Beth Guckenberger (03:33) It literally broke the back of that sin in my life. And that doesn’t mean I can’t still sometimes fall into those patterns. But man alive, it’s a fraction of what it used to be. It had a stronghold in my life and I didn’t even know it. I mean, obviously other people do it about me, but I didn’t know it about me. Sometimes I’ve almost overcorrected and I have to be careful in that area now too. But yeah, was so, there was so much freedom.

and not needing to be responsible for other people’s behavior.

Shannon Popkin (04:03) Hmm. Well, can you give us an example of what that looked like? Like, what did it look like for you to form these judgments that were wrong? Because I think there is a difference between exercising a judgment and judging other people. Like, the Bible does tell us. That’s what I’m grappling with as I write this book. Like, it’s not like get rid of all the lines between right and wrong. Like, that’s not really what God’s asking of us. But yeah, how do, yeah, how did that work in your heart?

Beth Guckenberger (04:12) is a difference between exercising with judgements.

Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (04:30) Where did you cross the line into judgment?

Beth Guckenberger (04:30) it.

I personally think that judgment and pride are first cousins, or at least they were in my mind. so, judgment…

Shannon Popkin (04:37) Okay.

Yeah, can I just

interject there? Because we cannot express contempt, judgment and contempt, know, they’re maybe two sides of the same coin, but we can’t express that without also saying something about ourselves, you know, because when we’re expressing contempt, it always is downward. lifting, we’re saying two things at once. We’re saying, would never do this and you have, right? And so pride and judgment are first cousins. So, and then go ahead.

Beth Guckenberger (04:54) Yeah.

They were first cousins for me because every time I was judging and it wasn’t like I would even do it consciously. I just kind of subtly would evaluate myself compared to other people. I mean, again, it sounds real ugly when it comes out of your mouth when it was a behavioral pattern. I didn’t know any different. I just would think all the things, you know about

And sometimes I found myself lacking. wasn’t like I was always better. Pride does not always mean you think you’re better. It just means you’re thinking about yourself. So I was comparing myself to other people and all the places and ways that women tend to do so. And if I felt someone was lacking, there’s the judgment, then I felt a little bit better about myself. And what I…

testify to is the absence of that behavior, the absence of that practice and pattern. ⁓ gosh, I actually feel so much lighter and my relationship with the Lord is so much more intimate because I just I had a report card going on and I didn’t even I was always grading myself and I didn’t even know I was I’m not

I don’t have the temperament of a perfectionist. That’s not my, that’s not one of my struggles. So it wasn’t like I needed to be perfect. I just, I just thought there was a right way to live and a wrong way to live in the way that I thought was the right way. And, and I didn’t realize. So I think to answer your question about the grappling you’re doing today, I try to channel any of that energy into discernment. Like, will I take counsel?

from this person or will I allow myself to be associated or influenced by this person? But I don’t allow judgment any longer to influence ⁓ relationship. I don’t allow it to influence.

connection. mean, that whole gospel transformation community and small group was happening, which is so funny because that’s been now almost 15 years and I’ve continued to be in relationship with those women and we talk about how nobody really remembers anybody else’s sins, but we all remember what the Lord did in our own life. And it’s it’s you you get afraid to confess because you think my gosh, once I say it, they’ll never they’ll always know this about me. Well, no, actually, we don’t. don’t.

as much as we think. But that was all happening and I was a foster parent to teenage girls and because I was grading myself in that season, I thought I was a pretty good one. I was, I had had some really beautiful testimonies come out of that ministry and of course I knew how to say that Jesus gets all the credit and he does the transformation and it was the Holy Spirit. But I still thought to myself, I’m a pretty key player.

And then I got a very, very difficult child. And she was, at that point we had nine children under the house, under that roof. And she was more work than the other eight combined. And she entered my home at age 12. And the story I’m gonna tell you happened when she was 15. So we had been working really hard for three years in this relatively contentious environment. She brought tension into every room she walked into. And so we all just tried to overpower her.

By the time she was 15, I had tried to kind of wrap myself around her so that if her bomb went off, I was the only one that felt the blast radius, that it wouldn’t impact the rest of the kids. It was a complicated relationship I was having with her at that point. And we were having fights about everything, cell phone, boys, chores, curfew, homework. And when you’re an adult and you are fighting with a 15-year-old,

as if you are also 15 years old, it is time to cry out for help. And that is exactly what I did. And I asked this psychologist, Dr. Kyle Miller out of Texas, I asked him for help. And I said, come to my house and watch us for a few days and ask me any question, challenge me in any area. I want to grow. What I’m doing isn’t working. And this is all I know how to do. Like if I need a new skill, develop me.

So he watched for a couple of days, wrote a bunch of stuff down in his notebook. never saw the last day. She walked out of her bedroom and she had a pretty rocking 15 year old body and she had on a mini skirt. She couldn’t wear to school. And I said, you can’t wear that to school. need to go change. So she goes into her room and she comes out in a pair of jeans and the tiniest tank top you’ve ever seen. I’m like, you cannot go to school in that. So she goes back in her room. Anyways, this happens a few times. Finally, she comes out and what she wanted to wear.

or what she thought I wanted her to wear. And I said, you look great. She left my house. She went out the door and I looked at Kyle and I said, she won and she knows she won because underneath that is exactly what she’d like to wear. And as soon she gets around the corner, she’s ripping off that top layer and going to school how she’d like to. And what’s worse is she knows that I know that she won. And this is what she’s so happy about right now. And I was acting like a 15 year old and he sat down and he drew me a picture of a tree.

And the tree had three parts. It had some foliage and on that foliage, he wrote the word attitude and actions. And then he drew a trunk and he just wrote the word self image. And then he drew some roots down there and he wrote God’s truth. And he said, Beth, I’ve been listening to you for three days. like at least 90 % of the air time is taken up with your addressing her attitude and actions. And he just started to recount things that he had written down.

boys, chores, facial expressions, all the things. And he said, you know what happens every time you try to correct her in one of those areas, you’re like cutting off one of those limbs. And if you know anything about horticulture, when you cut off one of those limbs, it grows back twice as strong. And I said, can I get a witness? Yes. And he said, that little girl did not walk out of here in a miniskirt to offend you. And in fact, it probably had nothing to do with you. She walked out of here in a miniskirt.

Shannon Popkin (11:03) wow.

Beth Guckenberger (11:13) because that’s what her self-image is tied to. And he put his hand down on that trunk and he said, she, somebody told her that’s where her worth is. And so her attitude and actions are coming out of her understanding of who she is and her understanding of who she is comes directly from this garden and inside of this garden. I know you’ve tried to put some of the things in there that are true that God tells us, but she also has lies in the garden of her heart. And what do you think those lies sound like? And where do think they came from? And

As he and I had this conversation about the garden section of her life, I felt things like compassion and empathy and mercy and tenderness and even motivation at a time when that relationship was pretty broken. And ⁓ he said, I have a prescription for you. How about for the next 90 days? Unless she’s going to hurt herself or somebody else, you don’t address any of her attitude and actions. You just talk to her only about things that you know for sure.

And I said, “Like nothing? “Like nothing about her cell phone or sneaking in or boys or curfew or to place your dishes?” And he’s like, “Well, you just tell me how that’s been going for you.” I’m like, “Not very well.”

And my gosh, Shannon, at this point in my life, I was a professional Christian. I mean, I was a missionary. I was an author. I was a Bible teacher. I knew my Bible. I could not. I would have to go in the morning and say to my Bible, like, give me something I can say to her.

Nothing was coming to my mind ever. Like I bet my tongue so hard it practically bled sometimes. She would come home from school and say, well, that next week she came home to tell me how lame our spring break plans were. And I wanted to defend myself and say, well, you know what? You’re a ward of the state. And the whole reason we’re not going anywhere for spring break is because I can’t leave with you. But that would have made her feel shame. So I just said, you know what? Next week’s going to be great. Full of a hope and a future.

And I knew I was quoting the prophet Jeremiah, I didn’t tell her that. She came home one day with this enormous homework assignment, like the kind that people have been working on for months and it was due the next day and she hadn’t even started. And everything in me was like, how long have you known about this? But that would have taken us into a dark place. And I was like, Lord, what can I say to her? That is true. And this isn’t even an appropriate application of this verse. But I said, you know what?

He’s before all things and in him all things will hold together. Let’s get started. And what I can tell you is that over time, the Bible tells us that it’s sweet to the taste like honey. And over time, what happened as, as I made sure that my mouth was full of true things, I found she walked into the room and was attracted to me where at this point we had almost years of her walking into the room and being.

And the only thing that changed was what came out of our mouth. And so anyway, this is not a formula and it does not always happen this way. But in her case, like day 89, she prayed to receive Jesus. And I think she probably had been wanting to do that for a while. And I think I was the person to do that with her. But I wasn’t talking to her about any of those kinds of things. I had been so busy talking to her about all the other stuff. We didn’t really have.

and tenderness established to have that kind of conversation. And it wasn’t like all of a sudden all her skirts got longer. I mean, we still had all the discussions after that, but things changed. She was my sister in Christ now. And so as I was learning all this through gospel transformation and I was recognizing my own weaknesses and I was

watching what happens when I don’t focus so much on people’s attitude and actions, but I think more about where what drove that behavior. What’s the meaning behind that behavior? You know, later in the work I would do in the area of trauma, we we challenge people to change the question from what’s happened to you to what’s wrong. What? I’m sorry. We challenge people to change the question from what’s wrong with you to what happened to you. Understanding that behavior is driven by meaning. And if I don’t try to understand the meaning,

I’m in no business to evaluate that behavior. But I mean, the PS of that story is during that season, I had a radio show on XM and in January, my cohost asked me without warning, what were my new year’s resolutions? And so I made them up on the air. Like I didn’t have any, I was like, I mean, I’m going to learn another language and I’m going to read more books and I’m going to lose 10 pounds. Like this is what everybody says. Right. And then I went home and I wrote this down in my

journal so I would remember them when we revisited them later. And I had a picture of that tree inside my journal and I was looking at my New Year’s resolutions and I realized I was trying to basically self-improve at the top of my tree. I was trying to change attitude and actions and I had gained 10 pounds that year. And so I was thinking, okay, well, I guess I eat less and move more. And as Jesus and I talked about

What was the meaning behind that behavior? I mean, yes, obviously I exceeded my clork intake and that’s where the weight gain came from. But why, why that year? Why? Where did, what was the meaning behind that behavior? And I confess to Lord, cause I’m getting better and better at it in that season that I thought he had asked too much of me, that that assignment of parenting that little girl was too much. And I didn’t like the way he was rewarding me. So I rewarded myself.

in the bowl on the form of a bowl of ice cream. And those 10 pounds came off not because I just exercised more and ate less. They came off because Jesus and I talked about what on my plate has he put on there? What on my plate have I put on there? And who manages those expectations and what what’s a healthy way for Christ follower to understand what God asks and calls us to and then prepares and equips us for.

Shannon Popkin (17:16) Wow, girl, that’s amazing. All of those things. I love this picture. And I feel like, OK, I just read a book called Gospel Fluency. And he used an image of a tree that was really similar. I really like that, where we’re addressing, because we can’t share the gospel and talk about the fruit. We got to talk about the roots, right? And so how can we turn conversations?

Beth Guckenberger (17:25) Okay.

Hmm.

Shannon Popkin (17:43) where we would naturally go to judging one another, judging behavior, whether it’s parenting or even in our minds when we’re thinking about other people. I love this idea of going to those roots. And I think what you were saying at the end there was you’re going to the roots in your own self-talk, in your own self-evaluation, correct?

Beth Guckenberger (18:04) Yes, because I have, and this, the way that it has now equipped me, you know, 15 years later is that when anyone, especially in the intimacy of my household, I mean, this is true, whether we’re talking about my neighbor or someone I read about online. But if I think about my most important relationships, if someone in my world is saying something, doing something I don’t like, I have to ask myself.

I could just try to match that energy and cut off that branch or reject that branch. Or I could do a little bit of work and figure out what’s, where did that come from? What is it about you? I can understand. And that process will always create connection. And if I have any desire to influence them, it’s going to happen over connection. There is no influence that happens through judgment. mean, in fact, that’s a disconnector. And so

It’s really to my benefit to try to be as curious as possible about why people think or behave or say how they do. That’s the talk about fluency. That’s how we’re going to make conversation.

Shannon Popkin (19:18) Yeah, so give us a scenario there and walk us through how that might work.

Beth Guckenberger (19:23) Yeah, so one of the collateral damages of being a judger is that you have very high expectations on people and on yourself. And in my marriage, we began to use the phrase, expectations are like premeditated resentments. Like they really just set you up for failure. And so I had to…

kind of 201 of that gospel transformation was recognizing I had, had expectations on people that weren’t fair. had expectations on people they didn’t know about. had like, that was the next layer of healing and maturation that had to happen in my life. And, well, I mean, a scenario is one in the trauma training work that we do it back to back, we learned.

that anger and all of its forms, passive, aggressive, whatever your temperament is, is a secondary emotion and it always sits on the primary emotion of fear. So every time we’re angry, we’re actually afraid. We just don’t know how to find those words to say it. And so in a practical sense, when someone would come into my world, which again, we have 11 children, I have a husband, a large staff family, active church, so lots of people kind of in my circumference.

When someone was angry, maybe not even at me, maybe they’re angry at something they read about on the news or they’re angry about something that happened at work or school or whatever. I realized in that, as I entered into that interaction, I have some choices. I can try to be curious and discover and understand what the fear is that’s driving that emotion of anger and then do my best to minister to them. Or I could react to that anger and either get bigger than it.

to try to subdue it or match it and then we’re in conflict or be suppressed by it and then I disappear. None of that made any sense. So it’s just in a very practical sense. I just try to get very curious and in my marriage, we’ve been married 31 years. We kind of have this rule that probably started in that season 15 years ago that if somebody’s getting upset because in marriage you have

My husband and work together, we raised this large family together. There’s plenty of places for us to rub each other. Whoever is the secondary person to encounter the person that’s upset, take a beat, take a breath, pray to Jesus, get curious, try to help the other person, get from their anger to their fear. And here’s a silly example, but we were building a house.

And after dinner one night, my husband pulled out the plans to the house and he told me he thought we should make a change and add a bathroom to the guest suite. And the house already had like six bathrooms. And I said, my gosh, we do not need another bathroom. Are you kidding me? If people want their bathroom, they can go here, they can go here. And I’m like pointing the places on the plans. And he was like, no, I think, I think we have a lot of long-term like missionary guests. He’s like, I think that’ll be nice for them to have their own bathroom. I think we should do that. And I don’t know how you conflict with.

people important to you, but man, one minute we were talking about a bathroom and the very next minute I was talking to him about his mother. You know, we asked, I escalated real fast and he was watching me like taking a beat and watching him kind of get worked up. And he’s like, you’ve lost me. Like what in the world is so scary about a bathroom? Like where’s calming from like, what are you upset about? And then that moment I wanted to be like, I’m not afraid of anything. I think your idea is stupid and I don’t want another bathroom in the

And I, know, like I was like, you still have energy in those conflicts. And, but he was right. He was taking us down the right path. And so I stopped for a minute and just said, Lord, like, what am I, what am I afraid of? And then I had to admit to myself and then out loud, I’m afraid we can’t afford it. I’m afraid we’re spending too much money. And as soon as I surfaced that fear, he’s like, that’s what you’re afraid of. And he pulls out of spreadsheets and shows me all the numbers. And I’m like,

Okay, well, I’d like a double sink and some brush nickel in there then, you know, like once my fear was alleviated, we could then go on and have a productive conversation. If he hadn’t been curious about that in that moment and had tried to match my energy or he’s bigger and louder, so he could have been more than me in that moment, we would have then eventually had to recover from not just what we were fighting about, but then how we were fighting about what we were fighting about. And I think…

Shannon Popkin (23:21) you

Beth Guckenberger (23:46) him deciding not to judge me for not getting someplace as fast as he did, but instead like meet me in that place. I think that’s a very practical way that we can reduce judgment and expectation in our house and increase connection and understanding.

Shannon Popkin (24:04) Yeah, I remember when my kids were growing up, one of the questions we would try to remember to ask is like, how can I help you with this? Is there something that I can help you with? When everything was escalating, because the temptation is to just match that energy and to issue judgment. You knew, you should have, you whatever. And instead, if we can just take that beat and say, like what is?

you know, how can I help you? Is there something beneath this? Like what is going on? And I think empathy and compassion are the antithesis of judgment because judgment always comes, like we said, it’s always downward. It’s always like I am this self-exalting superior, you know, person that’s issuing contempt downward and you are beneath me because you aren’t doing it right and I am.

Beth Guckenberger (24:55) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (24:55) ⁓

Whereas empathy, it’s like I’m beside you, right? I’m hand around the shoulders. How can I help? What can I do? And I mean, throughout the Old Testament, see, you know, God is a God of judgment. And yet, like, one of the stories that I’ve studied was the story of Jonah, who had absolutely no empathy, none, even when people are falling to their knees.

Beth Guckenberger (25:15) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (25:19) in repentance to God, he could not. He saw them, like the end of that book, when God says, you know, this is look at there are 12,000, the word that he uses as human beings is like he humanizes them versus like empathy, or I’m sorry, contempt. It’s like that sort, like they’re not like me at all.

Beth Guckenberger (25:37) Hmm.

Yes.

Shannon Popkin (25:48) versus like humanizing, like this is the human condition. But talk to us about the gospel. Like what difference does it make that Jesus died on the cross, that he took the judgment of God? Like how does that reframe the way that we judge one another or fail to show God’s mercy?

Beth Guckenberger (26:08) I think, again, I feel such freedom from judgment. It’s so fun to me to think the freedom came from just trying simply to be more like Jesus and realizing Jesus, when he looked at someone, he saw their whole life at one time. He didn’t see them stuck in a particular moment.

When Jesus saw someone, he saw someone that he created and died for. He saw someone who has extraordinary potential. And so trying to walk and live and love more like Jesus. just like even yesterday, I was in church and there was someone sitting behind me that has been a difficult person in the life of some people that I care about. And I could replay those

events and not only form a judgment, but actually, you know, start to criticize her or start to, I could have all kinds of thoughts. mean, that, wouldn’t be that hard to drum that up because I know some things about her. And I was praying because we were pretty close to each other and it was during worship. And I was just like, Lord, help me love her the way you love her. And I was testifying to my husband last night. My heart felt overwhelmingly.

loving towards her in those moments. Now later that day when I was recounting, hey, I ran into her and this was thing, I could feel the old thoughts come back. Like I cannot believe how she’s hurt this person done this thing. But in truth, I just remind myself how good it felt to feel the spirit deposit into me something supernatural. It’s not natural. My natural self would not be that way. But that’s supernatural deposit of love. And that feels so good. And I love I love that feeling so much.

feeling the spirit of God inside of me that I just ask for it all the time. I just say, Lord, like, help me see them, help me see them, help me see them. And it’s really kind of that simple for me in terms of Yeah, there’s some great verses to memorize, but truthfully, I just ask the Holy Spirit every time like just give me your eyes, give me your heart, give me your

Shannon Popkin (28:12) You said that Jesus saw a person holistically. Where does that idea come from?

Beth Guckenberger (28:20) I think several different places. He’s not bound by time. We know that from scripture. You know, he, he, he’s not bound by time. And so he’s not living every day with me. Like, I wonder if she’s going to go right or left. I wonder if, you know, he, he’s, he already knows my whole life. Every one of my days already ordained before any of them came to be Psalm 139. Like he knows my whole journey. So he doesn’t get stuck. And that was very freeing to me when I was trying to get out of that.

pattern is like, oh Lord, you already know the freedom that awaits me through this work. So walk with me in it. It’s like any hard thing that we have to do. You know, you have to kind of go through the valley to get to exercise those muscles or to to get that understanding. Even I’m currently grieving someone that I love that we lost. There’s not really a way around it. You actually just have to go through it.

But I’m confident that on the other side of the eye of the storm, I will still feel loss, there’ll be a peace about it that is drawing me through it. I know that that is coming, so I’m going through it. So I think that’s, you know, I think about all the encounters that Jesus had during his ministry years, all the people he spent moments with and how he…

Shannon Popkin (29:29) Yeah.

Beth Guckenberger (29:42) Even this is not a silly moment. don’t mean to diminuise it, but like even Peter denying Christ three times and then feeding him the fish on the beach and all that. Jesus was like, listen, 50 days for now, we’re going to have something called the day of Pentecost. It’s going to be unbelievable. Like get back in the game, buddy. Like, and I think in many ways I just, I hope I eternally hope for the things that are still to come in my life. And certainly in

Shannon Popkin (30:01) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Beth Guckenberger (30:11) people around me. And so you just trust and walk it with them.

Shannon Popkin (30:15) Let’s talk a second though about this woman that you’re noticing in church. Like I feel like that second hand hurt. There’s something about that, like taking up an offense for somebody else that is really, there’s such a, man, the bait is really tempting to pick that up. And this freedom that you’ve experienced from not carrying around all of that, like there is a burden that comes with that, a feeling like I call it,

Beth Guckenberger (30:18) Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (30:42) you know, keeper of the lines, know, keeper of the lines between right and wrong. Like God has laid these lines and I feel responsible. You know, like the Pharisees felt like they were keepers of the lines and they had to add to it. And so I imagine if I am looking at that woman, I’m feeling like, you know, I have to hold up this offense. She has wronged somebody that I love, hurt them deeply. And, you know, it is not within my

I don’t know, jurisdiction to like let that go. Right. And so.

Beth Guckenberger (31:08) to like let that go, right?

Yeah, it’s just, it’s almost as simple as the John eight in the woman caught in adultery. Like, I think what happened to me is not necessarily that I lost the appetite to judge is that I gained the appetite to confess. And the more I confess, the natural outcome is the less I judge because I am so aware of my own sin.

Shannon Popkin (31:12) Yeah.

you

Beth Guckenberger (31:35) And while I didn’t participate in the storyline that this woman did it, like that’s totally separate than me. I got my own storylines I participated in that I am keenly aware of. And I think it’s a lot less about does her behavior rise to the level that I should break relationship or gossip about her or any of the other things that could happen. Or is it just more like, oh, I’m I am.

deeply in need of God’s mercy and grace. And, and again, like, think about all the verses, the more that you understand that the more you give that away, like Jesus knew this is how we were going to be made. And so when I, when I spend any time with anyone, because now I noticed the sin of judgment and other people, because I know what it looks like. I got wore it real well for a long time. And so, you know, whenever I notice it in someone or someone,

Shannon Popkin (32:06) Yeah, yeah.

Yep.

Beth Guckenberger (32:32) admits to it being hard for them. My first counsel is just start confessing, not like at the end of the day, like, Lord forgive me for my sins, but like in real time. And bonus points if you do it out loud to someone else. That’s very, it’s very humbling.

Shannon Popkin (32:48) I’ve

found that helpful too, like with the temptation to judge, finding commonality with that person, you know? Where’s the way, like especially raising adult children right now and seeing them do some of the same things that I did at their age. Did I lose you? You’re frozen. there you are. You know, it just helps me to go back to when I was 21.

when I was 25, when I was 27, the ages of my children and like, okay, I did exactly what I am tempted to call out in them. so how can I address those roots that I too, understand where like there is no sin that I don’t understand the root of, you know what I mean? There’s nothing that I can look into a life of another person and say, well, they are that sort and I’m a different sort. know, Simon called

this woman at Jesus’s feet, like if he knew she was what sort of woman she was, as if she’s a different sort than him. And so where it’s helpful to be the opposite of a Pharisee is to say, okay, I am that sort too. you know, how can I, and a friend gave me this advice once when I was struggling with judging a judgy person. And I think there was so much temptation. You just mentioned that to judge like,

Beth Guckenberger (33:40) So we’re powerful to be able

Right.

Shannon Popkin (34:01) I see her as judgy.

know this in myself, but the temptation to judge a judgy person. And there’s something about the blindness of our own, like being blind to our own sins. I don’t know. We don’t have time to unpack all that. But I was judging a judgy woman and my friend said, you know what? honestly, I think you’re a lot like her. And I was like, what? She’s like, I think what would be great is if you made a list of all the ways that you’re the same and then pray for the both of you.

Beth Guckenberger (34:24) and then pray for

Shannon Popkin (34:27) And so I did that

Beth Guckenberger (34:27) the bullshit.

Shannon Popkin (34:28) and I got on my knees and I pictured her beside me on my knees, the two of us at the foot of the cross. And I prayed in plural. And it was this powerful experience of just being set free because of like just knowing I do, I’m the judgee woman. so yeah, there’s so much freedom in recognizing. Go ahead.

Beth Guckenberger (34:50) It,

I think you’re right. And the other thing that I do sometimes, you know, we, we know Jesus, we read him and we have the experience of him inside, but we didn’t get to see him in flesh and blood the way that some of those people did. So sometimes I think of the most grace filled people I know, and I just try to imagine. So I did that yesterday in my church chair.

I was thinking about someone I know who’s just being in her presence is very comforting because she’s a very graceful person, very merciful person. And I was thinking like, literally, what would this person do? And I’m not putting that person in the place of Jesus. I’m just looking for a flash example of what Jesus teaches us. that’s, yeah. And I think that’s another kind of shortcut. If you’re trying to…

Shannon Popkin (35:29) you

You’re seeing seeing Jesus in her, right?

Beth Guckenberger (35:42) to speed up your journey out of judgment is to model the behavior of people that you see that don’t act in those ways.

Shannon Popkin (35:50) Good. Okay, last question. Jesus did judge the Pharisees. Like he called them out a lot. And so what, I don’t know, like how do we deal with that? The fact that Jesus, I mean, he said they were of the devil, you know, they were, he called them, you know, children of the snake. And so where does that fit into the conversation?

Beth Guckenberger (36:09) Mm-hmm.

I was teaching recently on the Sermon on the Mount and there’s a couple passages in there where it can seem, especially if you don’t know Jesus, like, wow, that’s really unloving. But the truth is that’s impossible. I mean, he literally doesn’t know how to be unloving. And so what I would say, if you read a passage where it feels like he’s doing the very thing that you know he has asked us not to do, then we must not understand it because he’s not.

he is incapable of being unloving. So if he’s calling out sin in someone’s life, it has to be, there has to be a loving way to do it. There has to be a way in which he’s doing it for that person’s good. And what happened for me when I was judging is I was doing it for my person’s good. Like I was doing it to feel better about myself. That’s the difference between my judging and Jesus judging. He’s, he’s, he is.

He wants something for them that they are currently not experiencing and he’s identifying it to them. So I think it probably just requires us to keep looking at those verses and understanding the context in which they were written and the audience in which they were spoken to and the person of Jesus who said them. And then we’ll get better ideas of how to use discernment or be in discipleship. Like I took a walk this morning with a young woman that I disciple.

And I don’t just say to everything she tells me, well, that’s great, that’s great, that’s great. Because that’s not loving either. There is a moment where we say, hey, I want you to think about this in this way. I want you to consider that. That’s not judgment, that’s discipleship.

Shannon Popkin (37:52) That’s going for those roots, right? The garden. And that is discipleship. You’re exactly right. And we do that side by side on a walk, right? It’s not me on my pedestals, you know, preaching down to you. It’s on a walk, like, me too. And here’s like, take another look because this is how that played out in my life. This is where I’ve fallen into that same trap.

Beth Guckenberger (37:53) Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (38:15) So, Obed, this has just been such an encouraging conversation. Tell us first, how’s it going with the daughter, the foster daughter that you mentioned, and then how can we find your books and your resources?

Beth Guckenberger (38:28) Yeah, well, one of those is easier than the other. That foster daughter and I continue to be in relationship. So for that, I’m Her journey, you know, her journey is her own. She’s an adult now. And so I think she takes some steps forward and some steps back. And I’m just grateful that she’s on the path and that I know where that path is headed. That’s kind of, and again, you mentioned earlier, parenting adult children is a

tremendous opportunity for us to intercede on their behalf and then to be available when they reach for you.

Shannon Popkin (39:01) Well, and could we please just stop judging one another by our children? Right? I mean, it is such a, that I feel like if we could do that and just have empathy and compassion for one another’s kids, adult kids, like that would breathe so much life into relationships and just free ourselves of that. yeah, so tell us though too, where can we find more about back-to-back ministries, your books and resources?

Beth Guckenberger (39:04) Yeah, Yes. Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Sure. Back to Back’s website is back in the number two, back.org. And there you can find out information about the trauma training I referenced or mission trips or child sponsorship or any other ways you can get involved in our work with orphaned and vulnerable children. If you can figure out how to spell my last name, you can find Beth Guggenberger on all the social media platforms on Amazon, all the places that you buy books. there’s all kinds of.

Shannon Popkin (39:48) That’s great. We’ll link to that too in the show notes. So Beth, thanks so much for your time. It’s been a joy.

Beth Guckenberger (39:53) Oh, thanks for having me. I appreciate it.