Tammy De Armas (00:00) One out of four women by the time they’re 46 will have had at least one, at least one. You can go back very easily.

Shannon Popkin (00:00) A couple.

Yes. so how did, so that, that day in church when somebody was talking about abortion and you said it wasn’t, it didn’t open a can of worms. It opened something. It allowed, it gave you and your husband like, all right, this is time for us to deal with this. How has God brought you from the point where you were hiding this even from your own kids to now you’re speaking about this and sharing your story with others. What, what?

What did he do? How did he help you?

Tammy De Armas (00:40) you

Yeah. Well, I think hearing her speak, I’ve often thanked our pastor for allowing her to do that because sitting in the balcony looking down, I realized I wasn’t the only one. it was, wow, we’re able to talk about this. This is okay. This can be a safe place. So then I went to the pregnancy center and wanted to volunteer there because

of my past, but they wanted me to go through post-abortion classes before I could ⁓ even volunteer there. And ⁓ I guess I don’t go down without a kick and a scream on any part of this because I’m like, no, I’m forgiven. I’m healed. And so I fought that. So I didn’t even go back to the pregnancy center for a few years and then was asked to be on the board and ended up

subsequently joining the board. ⁓ But I remember a time I was standing in my kitchen and our three kids were swimming in the pool, which is right outside my kitchen window, and thinking about listening, hearing her speak and whatnot.

I remember saying, I have to admit that this abortion is wrong. That abortion was wrong. But in my mind, the enemy had me wanting to say, I won’t say anything because if I admit that abortion’s wrong, then I really don’t love these three children. But if I, it’s a,

It’s a bait and switch. don’t, it keeps you, cause if you admit that’s wrong, then you really love that child and not these, not these children. So you, you, so there, you can’t do this. And I.

Shannon Popkin (02:40) Hmm.

Help me understand

that more. If I admit that the abortion was wrong, then I’m admitting

Tammy De Armas (02:52) And that I really

would have wanted that one, that I really, if I had that one, I love that baby, then I really don’t love these three because I chose these three and not that. Shannon, can’t even really describe it because the feelings have gone since then, I walked over to the microwave and I remember saying, what do I do?

Like the Lord said, I have that baby in heaven. It’s I who gave you the three others. And I want you to use your voice to tell others what has happened. And I remember slamming the microwave door and I’m like, all right, okay, that’s where I’ll go. Cause it’s you who have it and you who took them away. I’ve just made the mess out of this.

Shannon Popkin (03:48) Yes, well,

I love where you’re looking down from that balcony at this woman who is publicly talking about her abortion and your heart is stirred because you realize you’re not the only one. And what I want to say is nobody is the only one. We’re all in this together. Like we are all fallen. There is not one person who is without sin.

Nobody. And so to look at someone else’s sin and, you know, contempt always says two things at once. It says, you know, I’m disgusted with you, but it also says something about me. It says I never have, I never would, I never could. And that is the lie of contempt because we all have, we all would and we all could. And we are all terribly deprived in our sinful state.

Tammy De Armas (04:30) next

Thank

Shannon Popkin (04:45) And so,

you know, that I feel like the Lord was loosening those, loosening the grip of that sin of you being the only one and hiding in your shame in that moment. And yet still after that, it’s interesting to me, you’re not the only one, but yet it was still wrong and you weren’t quite ready to say it was wrong. And that’s where I just think, wow, what would keep us, what keeps us as believers for from

Tammy De Armas (04:54) Thank you.

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (05:14) saying no my sin was that was sin and it was wrong. you pride okay easy as that.

Tammy De Armas (05:23) Right, mean, yeah, that’s that when you said that, that’s the first thing I think in lots of times that still happens to me now. like, what, what is, what, what, it’s your pride, Tammy, it’s your pride, let it go, it down. It’s,

Shannon Popkin (05:39) Well,

and I wonder if you, when you were looking at the kids in the pool, you had to grapple with the fact that you played God there, you You decided that three would live and one wouldn’t. ⁓ you had, and that there’s pride in that, right? There’s pride in playing God and trying to be the autonomous overseer of life. ⁓

Tammy De Armas (05:54) Mm-hmm.

Thank you.

Thank

Shannon Popkin (06:08) And yet it took humility, like the opposite of the pride is the humility to say, I was wrong. But God in his mercy gathered up that little one and has, do you know if it was a boy or girl?

Tammy De Armas (06:14) ⁓

You know what, don’t because I was gonna say he’s only he was only six weeks. I believe I believe it was a boy because when I did go through the post abortion

you go through it and lots of times you sit before the Lord and ask him, you know, is it a boy or a girl? And just wait and see. And for years, I just always thought it was a girl because I just always wanted a little girl. I always thought it was a girl. And then through these classes, this boy thing came out, I’m like, boy. And then I asked the name and I remember I heard Gabriel and I thought,

I don’t even like that name. There’s no way that’s his name. And you know, the Lord, here you go again. You’re gonna go. And ⁓ my oldest daughter at this time was golfing and she was at a driving range. And so I was studying my Bible and this is where I was going with the Lord sitting here saying, you know, this sounds silly, but may I ask what his name is? Can you help me?

seemed like everywhere I turned in the Bible was this word named Gabriel. And I’m like, no way. And then I look up and my daughter’s not practicing her golf like she should have, but she’s on the phone. And I’m like, Annalisa, get off, get practicing. Who are you talking to? She goes, it’s Gabe. He just called me. And I said, okay, Lord, I’ll go. Gabriel Michael.

Shannon Popkin (07:40) Hahaha

You

That’s interesting. when you joined this board, then you had to go through, what did you call it? Post-abortive counseling?

Tammy De Armas (08:13) Yeah, it’s called post-abortion

Bible studies, post-abortion counseling. ⁓ And so it’s usually a six or eight week class. And just really going through what God’s Word says and forgiveness, forgiving yourself. ⁓ Many women, including myself, will say, well, I know God’s forgiven me, but I can’t forgive myself. Again, moving us higher and…

So I had to go through that, to do that. And that’s where this bonding with this baby can come, because many women don’t connect that. They just, we drop off. And even to the point where I’ve asked our pastors if we could do memorials for those of us who’ve had abortions, can we have memorials for our babies in the churches? And some of them are not.

Shannon Popkin (09:08) I think that’s

Tammy De Armas (09:09) I think it would be great to do, of course I’m the one that speaks about things that people are like, well, let me think about that. But that’s the healing. We don’t go to memorials for the person that’s died. We go to the memorials for all of us.

Shannon Popkin (09:18) You

Exactly, yeah, exactly. And I just, love what you, I wanna go back to what you just said about forgiving ourself because when I say I can’t forgive myself, once again, I’m putting myself in the judge’s seat. I’m saying I’ve heard all of the testimony here and I am pounding the gavel and I have determined that that was unforgivable. And so, you know.

Tammy De Armas (09:27) So.

Bye.

Shannon Popkin (09:50) My sin was unforgivable and and I don’t belong in that seat. I am NOT the judge and God is and thank goodness He is a God so rich in mercy You know, I I love this quote by Dane Ortland in his book gentle and lowly He says, you know, we think of God as having all of this pent-up wrath for us and our sin But it’s exactly the opposite. What is pent up in God’s heart?

Tammy De Armas (09:52) It’s

Thank you.

Bye. ⁓

Shannon Popkin (10:17) is love and compassion. He is the most understanding person and he, you know, it’s like it’s so pent up and it just tastes the tiniest little prick. For God to flood us with his mercy and his grace, that’s what he longs to do. I’m thinking of the story of ⁓ Jonah, you know, he had all this contempt for the Ninevites. He didn’t want to go there. Those people were awful and he was going to go

Tammy De Armas (10:20) Thank

Shannon Popkin (10:47) 2000 miles in the opposite direction. He literally took a trip that would have taken him a year in a small fortune. That’s how big his contempt was for the Ninevites, those horrifying people. But look at God’s, you know, what God wanted for the Ninevites. He was sending his person there because he wanted to open the door for his mercy and they didn’t know anything about God. And Jonah speaks this five word sermon.

Tammy De Armas (11:11) Thanks.

Shannon Popkin (11:16) It’s just five words in the Hebrew and it’s all judgment, 100 % judgment. It’s the worst sermon in the world. He doesn’t even mention God. He gives them no path forward. It’s all judgment condemnation. It’s like in 40 years, you’re all going to or 40 days, you’re all going to die. That’s it. And for some reason, that’s this whole city turned to God and God relented. You know, these were these were his enemies for centuries. And yet in that moment,

Tammy De Armas (11:20) So I’m going to ahead and start the presentation. So I’m start with a question from the audience.

Shannon Popkin (11:45) God, only took, the text reads as though it took like a day and everybody falls, it’s the city-wide fasting and they’re all falling to their knees. And God relents of his disaster. He is excited, there’s rejoicing in heaven when there’s repentance. ⁓ And so just like look at that contrast between Jonah and the Lord. Jonah didn’t want them to have mercy, God did, go ahead.

Tammy De Armas (11:59) Well,

no, and Jonah, you know, I, we’re studying Jonah at church right now. So I really want to get a sign about Tarshish because how often do we, God calls and we run this way. And to the point that

He even has the sailors throw him over and it’s not till he’s in the belly of the whale that he cries out. So you think he’s getting it, the whale throws him up on land, because that’s again a miracle of the Lord. And then he says he’s going to listen and then he gets there and he still does that, what you were just saying. So I’m like, and we sit here in the pew and go, how could he do that? And I’m thinking, I’m Tammy Jo.

Shannon Popkin (12:31) Right.

Mm-hmm.

Quite easily, yeah.

Quite easily, yeah. So look at all the ways that God has healed your heart and given you the ability to bask in his great mercy. What would you tell someone else who is struggling to call, let’s do it, let’s segment this out. What would you say to somebody who’s struggling to say abortion is wrong?

Tammy De Armas (13:25) struggling to say abortion is wrong. I think the question is what is abortion? Because we’ve taken the word abortion and made it like the word closet. It means nothing. But if you could that same person say child killing is wrong. Nobody murdering a child. Nobody in their right mind would say murdering a child.

is right. Correct. mean, so, so my,

Shannon Popkin (13:58) Yeah, no, yeah, I don’t think so.

Tammy De Armas (14:05) I think we have to dial it back to say abortion is wrong because it is the killing of an innocent child. But we have to determine what it is. It’s been dialed down to be an option for a woman in an unplanned pregnancy. And the ultimate, the option is that child. it’s, we, I mean, that sounds so legalistic in,

but and I don’t want it to be because I know, but I want what I would want. I always think there’s somebody that’s listening here that could be in this very moment right now and says, yeah, but Tammy Shannon, you don’t know my story. We don’t, but God does. And he is a God who saves and he is a God that will come alongside you in the most.

Shannon Popkin (14:35) It’s just our world. Yeah, I know that’s.

Tammy De Armas (15:02) miraculous ways, like when I look back at this and see what he’s blessed us with, with our children, and then the pain that it even, you know, we had to share with our kids, how that came about, and the pain, we want that to be stopped at this generation. We don’t want it to carry on. So… ⁓

Shannon Popkin (15:23) Yeah,

you know, when you say that about, is child killing wrong? Right? The people of the Canaanites sacrificed their children. They killed their children and they thought that was right. And ⁓ so I love the story of Rahab in Jericho because God is coming. He’s coming against this city in judgment.

Tammy De Armas (15:43) you

Shannon Popkin (15:52) You know, he has all of these laws don’t be like the Canaanites because they don’t defer to my good judgment. They’re doing whatever is right in their own eyes, including killing their children and a whole bunch of other things. You know, there’s a whole look at, look at Leviticus. There’s like a whole chapter on who not to get naked with. And so why do they need those laws? It’s like everybody’s deciding what’s right in their own eyes. So God is marching at Jericho ready for destruction and they are walled up. They’re like, ⁓ no, you’re not gonna.

Tammy De Armas (16:04) Thank you.

Shannon Popkin (16:21) come at us. They’re just shutting all the gates and the doors and yet there is one woman in the middle of that city who’s like waving this white flag like I want on your team. And she’s a prostitute. It’s not like she’s this super holy person, right? Living this pure life. She’s just a part of her culture and she doesn’t know right from wrong either.

Tammy De Armas (16:32) Okay.

Shannon Popkin (16:49) And she just waves this with this white flag. Can I be on your team? And God loves that. But it does involve switching teams. It does involve saying, I no longer am going to be the one deciding what is right and wrong for me. Belonging to God fundamentally is saying, you are God and I am not. And so I defer to you on what is right, what is wrong.

Tammy De Armas (17:08) I’m going to

Shannon Popkin (17:18) I recognize that like Eve and everybody else, my vision is skewed

and I’m looking at something that you say is evil and to me it doesn’t look evil, but I’m gonna defer to you on that. And so how does he respond when we wave that white flag? He sent people in to get her in the middle of that destruction, destruct, know, the whole city, the walls are collapsing, everybody is falling. He escorted her and her family out. That’s how God feels about someone.

who is ready to turn to him.

Tammy De Armas (17:50) Right. Yeah. Yeah, it’s filled with mercy. And we live in a world where right is wrong and wrong is right. And it’s all about the unholy trinity of me, myself and I. It’s how I feel what I what I can do. You know, I was reading the false narratives ⁓ that was were on your website and ⁓

Shannon Popkin (17:52) So.

Mmm.

Tammy De Armas (18:13) You know, I have to rely on myself. That’s many, many of us ⁓ who’ve walked into that abortion clinic. have to rely on myself. And we become survivors. And then we think it worked. I had many moms would come into the clinics and say, ⁓ well, my daughter needs an abortion. ⁓ Can you tell us where to go? Which we don’t tell them where to go.

I had an abortion and I’m fine and so she needs an abortion. And in my mind, I so wanted to say, are you sure you’re fine? Are you sure you’re fine? But that was not professional at all to say, but my heart was breaking because for a long time I thought I was fine till I had the microwave issue with the Lord after hearing the women speak in church. And it was this constant.

Shannon Popkin (19:09) Yeah.

Tammy De Armas (19:12) It’s this peeling of layers to get to the core of what he wants. And in the meantime, it’s a total transformation of who you are. And it was really inside of there, but life’s issues and whatnot have caused things to cover you. ⁓ even to think like God made a mistake. know, God made a mistake in my life somehow.

Shannon Popkin (19:32) Well, it’s a clap.

Yeah, it’s a clouding of judgment. And again, it’s putting myself above him. I get to decide and he let me down. So I got to take over here. I got to take care of me or I’ve got to take care of my daughter. Whereas the opposite response is a humbling, I’m going to defer to your good judgment. God, what do you say is good? What do you say is evil? Who do you say you’ll be to me? You’re going to be my rescuer. I just wave that white flag and you’re there for me and you’re going to take care of me.

Tammy De Armas (19:43) This

Thank

Shannon Popkin (20:08) I love the story of Rahab because she is integrated into, she doesn’t just stay on the outside of the camp, she becomes one of them and she is in the birth line leading to Jesus. Like that’s what God thinks of those who are willing to surrender to Him, to His good judgment. And also, I mean, we haven’t even talked about what Jesus has done for us. You know, He died in our place. He took all of our shame, He took all of our sin.

Tammy De Armas (20:17) Yep.

this.

Yeah.

⁓

Shannon Popkin (20:38) He nailed it to that cross that we could be completely forgiven and clean. That’s what he’s done for us. ⁓ so what would you say though to someone who is looking back at their abortion with all of that shame and condemnation still?

Tammy De Armas (20:57) I would really ask them to go to a local pregnancy center and find a post-abortion group.

a post-abortion mentor, they can call me. ⁓ I’ve taught post-abortion in the women’s prison here ⁓ and taught several classes because…

Shannon Popkin (21:19) What do you think is, what

is the most important thing you teach in those?

Tammy De Armas (21:26) I think it’s the shame, it’s this unhealthy shame that, know, because there’s shame, there’s healthy shame, but there’s unhealthy shame. it’s just, we’re carrying burdens he never asked us to carry on top of it. And so letting that go, taking that all away, peeling those layers back, I think that’s the most important of ⁓

for the women to hear and see and think they’re gonna go deep. It’s gonna even talking today to you and going back to the, you know, the smells or the noises, it just physically takes a toll. will, you know, it comes back to you because it’s a death, but replacing that with…

the blessing of where I am now. There’s consequences. There’s consequences to our sin. And we know that, but we don’t, he’s not asking us to carry, to carry, to carry, to drag it, to drag it. Everything is equal at the foot of the cross. It is left there and we rise.

Shannon Popkin (22:41) How does that death on the cross heal this death that we’re looking back at in abortion? What’s the connection there?

Tammy De Armas (22:55) I just, I look at that death as he knew, he knew that this was gonna happen. And. ⁓

So yeah, the old, not the old, but it’s a substitutionary. It’s, he covered it. It’s, I often think of, we’re a picture of chocolate covered cherries. He’s covered it. He’s covered my filthy disgusting sin by what he did on the cross for that. you know, so look at that crown of thorns and all that he through this very week, you know.

Shannon Popkin (23:38) Mm-hmm.

Tammy De Armas (23:38) going

through each day, I’m reading something else. And it’s finished, it’s over, it’s over. ⁓

Shannon Popkin (23:48) Mm-hmm. Yep.

Tammy De Armas (23:52) So I would want ⁓ a woman to know that, to understand whose she is, who she is, not who she is, but whose she is. ⁓ We can’t go through something like this and come out healed without Christ. There’s no way about, people have asked me, can you do this post-abortion stuff without the Bible? Absolutely not. That’s what God has seen without the Bible.

Shannon Popkin (24:10) Right.

Well, mean, yeah,

exactly. mean, apart from Jesus, we do face God’s judgment and we should be afraid. There is a judge and there is a coming day where we will be held accountable for our sin. ⁓ And it’s worse than we’re imagining. But we don’t have to be in that position. We can, like you’re saying at the cross, there’s a double imputation. Jesus

Tammy De Armas (24:36) version.

Shannon Popkin (24:46) took my sin onto him and paid it. And I receive his righteous life on my account. Like I get all the credit. He lived a perfect life on my behalf. It’s like Jesus faced every temptation and he looked at that. He looked at that, you know, potential for abortion and he chose the way that I didn’t, right? Every sin that he encountered, he lived a

Tammy De Armas (24:49) Nice. ⁓

I’m ⁓

Shannon Popkin (25:16) perfectly righteous life that I could never have done. He did that on my account. And then on top of that, at the end

of that perfect life, he allowed himself. This was not him being overcome by those Roman soldiers. Jesus spoke a word and they all fell back all over each other. He had all the power necessary to avoid the cross, but he chose the cross because he took that burden of my sin onto himself.

Tammy De Armas (25:24) Great. Great.

Shannon Popkin (25:45) It is finished. It has been done. And for us

to continue to put that burden back on our shoulders, we’re either not realizing what all that Christ has done for us or we’re not believing it. And so ⁓ once we have crossed over from death to life, it is finished. We are forgiven. We live without any condemnation. Praise the Lord.

Tammy De Armas (26:11) Or would you think it’s also not trusting? It’s trusting. It’s just like Jonah, even after all, he’s still

Shannon Popkin (26:14) Yes, yeah.

Tammy De Armas (26:23) You know, because things aren’t working out his way or whatever that we… God really know best here in this? And could he really? Could he really forgive me? He couldn’t possibly forgive me.

Shannon Popkin (26:36) Right,

yeah, it’s so true. Well, Tammy, thank you so much for sharing your story with us. As you think about your ⁓ looking back at your, you know, that moment where you slammed that microwave shut, how can we have that moment for ourselves and live like it’s true? That.

Tammy De Armas (26:55) I’m going to shut

Shannon Popkin (27:02) What would you say? How did you live like it’s true in that moment and how can we do that?

Tammy De Armas (27:02) ⁓

I want to say I just, ⁓ I want to say I surrendered, we know from my story, I don’t go down without a fight. ⁓

I had to believe it because I was at the end of myself. the quicker someone can die to their own self-sufficiency, the faster, and even, it’s not a fake it till you make it thing, but to understand that you are not self-sufficient and to let that go and let him take over. ⁓

And just watch at little pointers, little points, because you’ll see it, you’ll see it come through. It’s like, how did this, God did this. It’s not me. It’s not me and my magical thinking. It’s not me and my over-sense of responsibility on leadership skills or whatever. Yes, he’s gifted me in certain ways, but he is gonna move this forward. And I would just ask people to sit before the Lord. I spend a lot more time.

with the Lord now than I do, than I ever have before. That from those from back then till now, this office that I have in our house, this is my prayer room, my kids know it. And my husband knows it when I’m in here, I’m just doing business.

Shannon Popkin (28:47) I love it. So I see in your story two moments that you lived like it’s true. There was the moment ⁓ where you slammed that microwave and said this, was wrong. It was wrong. I own that. And that is part of our story. Living like it’s true is saying, God, I defer to you. You’re gonna decide for me what’s right and wrong. But it doesn’t end there. We also live like it’s true when… ⁓

Tammy De Armas (29:08) Thanks.

Shannon Popkin (29:16) we offer His forgiveness to others. You know, we may have listeners who somebody else had an abortion and they are grieved over that. It’s not what they wanted. so by extending God’s mercy in that situation, we live like it’s true that He is a merciful God. There are hundreds of different ways that we live like this overarching story of the Bible is true. But you know, abortion

Tammy De Armas (29:20) You know. ⁓

Shannon Popkin (29:45) is not the unforgivable sin. There is a life of redemption afterward. And I’m so glad that you’ve gotten to live that story. okay. I’m just gonna, I would like, I’m looking at the time. We’re over an hour now. So I wanna just record with you a real quick outro and intro. So we’re gonna cut it in half if that’s okay. So I’m trying to think.

Tammy De Armas (30:10) Okay.

Shannon Popkin (30:14) Can you think about where we were about halfway through the conversation? Do you have any idea?

Tammy De Armas (30:21) Hmm. I, the first part was, you know, really going to ⁓ the abortion clinic. Yeah, that was, to me, was where, that was a big part. I mean, you took me back. You took me back. I generally don’t go back there to that place, but you know, it’s funny how you know the steps or where to go, but.

Shannon Popkin (30:22) or what the first part? Go ahead.

Okay. ⁓

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah.

Tammy De Armas (30:51) So that

and then this second part with the healing. We didn’t even get into the kids and that whole thing. ⁓

Shannon Popkin (30:59) Yeah, you’re right. Well,

okay, so let’s do this. Tammy, you are now looking back at this horrible trip, you know, a three hour trip that you regret with all of your heart. But there is truth and we’re gonna talk next time about the truth of restoration and forgiveness. But I think that truth begins with admitting that this was wrong, you know?

Tammy De Armas (31:10) Bye.

Okay.

Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (31:29) So how would you respond to someone who’s struggling to say abortion is wrong? I mean, we have people marching, claiming the right that it’s not wrong, that this is our right. so they would be very strongly opposed that saying abortion is wrong. How can we live like it’s true, that our God not only tells us right from wrong, but offers us forgiveness?

Tammy De Armas (31:58) in regard to abortion.

Shannon Popkin (32:00) Mm-hmm. I mean, really,

anything. Mm-hmm.

Tammy De Armas (32:05) ⁓ well.

Shannon Popkin (32:12) Is that a hard way to ask it? Yeah, I’m so sorry. How about if I do a false narrative? How about that? Sorry, I just took a bite of ice. Tammy, as you think back on this story that we’ve just talked about, what are some of the false narratives of the world that you were believing?

Tammy De Armas (32:18) Okay.

I should trust my feelings above all else.

And my feelings were that I wanted him. If I could get him, then all else would fall into place. Him talking Pete. And that’s very awkward now. It had been very awkward because I mean, he knew that and he has his old side of what he was going through with this. I wish he could have been here, he’s, but when he’s spoken to men about it.

Shannon Popkin (32:48) him you’re talking Pete, right?

Tammy De Armas (33:09) how what he was going through and often felt that the abortion kept us together where a lot of people say the abortion, I think it’s between 40 and 70 % of couples split because of that. But he was like adamant that I had something so close with this woman. I can’t, how could I ever be, how could I do that with somebody, you know, go marry somebody else?

Shannon Popkin (33:37) Yeah, yeah.

Tammy De Armas (33:39) But sorry, we.

Shannon Popkin (33:40) Yeah, so the false narrative is that I should just trust my feelings and do what feels good and looks right in this moment. So how do we live like the true story is true then?

Tammy De Armas (33:48) This is my favorite slide.

For me now, when I’m struggling, I do have to sit before the Lord and go to his word. And it’s my guide. It’s not like because we’re believers and you are writing and teaching and everything, there’s times the enemy’s out and you’ve got to go, wait a second, what does God’s word say about this? Because I clearly feel this is the right way to go.

awesome to sit back and go, you know, I’m wrong and not feel condemnation that I’m wrong. Not like the enemy going, see, you’re wrong. You’re wrong. Going, no. Okay. Thank you, Lord, for saving that one. And, know, whether it’s the kids or my husband, you know what, honey, I, I, I’m sorry, I didn’t go at that the right way. There was so much freedom and so much goodness and so much peace when that is lifted.

Shannon Popkin (34:33) Right, right?

Yeah, there’s so much.

Tammy De Armas (34:56) ⁓ And we’ve modeled that. We’ve modeled that for our kids and our kids and their spouses to go, okay, I was wrong. I didn’t see this. I didn’t see this correctly. And asking the Lord, asking the Lord, okay, show me, show me. I sit here, somebody’s, just help, help me on this because I see it this way. Show me another way.

Shannon Popkin (35:23) And I believe he answers those prayers. He wants to open our eyes. And I completely agree. Opening his word, that’s how we hear from him. We can try and follow his voice in our heads and be led in the wrong direction. But opening his word, he speaks to us. This is a supernatural book, the Bible is. And he will show us right from wrong in that book. so living like it’s true.

Tammy De Armas (35:25) He does.

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (35:50) involves letting him decide what is right and wrong for us and letting him take care of the wrongs. He has a way to handle our sin and we’re going to talk about that next time. Did you have something else to add?

Tammy De Armas (36:05) Okay.

Yeah, I was just thinking to be more being than doing. We live in a world, particularly as women, we got to do, do, do. We’re power people. We’re under this conference, under that do, do, do. And I’m intentionally going slower not to miss him because I’ve probably ran past him a few times in the airport just because I got to get on that flight.

Shannon Popkin (36:30) yeah, for sure. ⁓

it’s so true. Well, Tammy, thank you so much for being with us. This has been a joy.

Tammy De Armas (36:38) Thank you.

Shannon Popkin (36:43) All right.

So Tammy, can you tell us about ⁓ your kids, the three that ⁓ you do have? How did they find out about the abortion and how did you decide whether to tell them that?

Tammy De Armas (36:58) Yeah, we have three girl boy girl ⁓ and they were 13, 14, 13 and 10 when we decided to tell them and it was only after a lot of prayer. My husband really didn’t want to share anything with them. It’s like why take our stuff and put it on them?

But then when I was asked to be CEO at the pregnancy center and I was going to be speaking in churches and all around, we didn’t want them to hear it from somebody else. So we sat down at the dining room table and said, we need to talk to you about something. And they admitted later, they thought we were going to say we were having another baby, which I don’t know how that came about, but ⁓ we shared with them what we had. ⁓

Shannon Popkin (37:25) Right. Sir?

Tammy De Armas (37:47) done when we were in college and that we had aborted that baby. And they all started crying. And particularly my oldest daughter and my son were very, very upset. My youngest one, she’s a little bit more spicier. She was just a little bit angry. And her point to us was at 10, well, so what you’re trying to tell us is you murdered our older brother or sister. And my husband just fell back in his chair.

And her name’s Julianne, we call her Hooley. I’m like, who’s?

You don’t mince words, but that’s what abortion is. So yes, yes. And ⁓ my son was very angry with me, not as much ⁓ with my husband. And for a week and a half, two weeks, we kind of went round and round ⁓ till I shared with him, I said, let’s go talk to one of our pastors who’s had an abortion. he was, he’s like, other people have done this.

caused him to give me a little bit more grace. our oldest daughter, this is the one that got to me. She was crying and crying. And she said, you’ve given me something that I’ve always wanted. I always wanted an older brother, and I feel like you gave it and took it away in a sentence. And she said, but what I’m really crying for is I never felt like I was equipped to be.

Shannon Popkin (39:16) Wow.

Tammy De Armas (39:22) your oldest sibling of your children. And she says, so through you telling me this, I know that was never God’s intention. So now I think I can do this better. And she said, so my tears are kind of tears of joy because what I was feeling was truth. I wasn’t the oldest. And I wanted to share that because it’s an example of light in the darkness.

Shannon Popkin (39:34) Wow.

Yeah.

Tammy De Armas (39:52) It’s not it’s not saying that everyone who’s had an abortion needs to go share that with you know, they’re their kids or whoever This was after careful prayer that Pete and I did this and it really took us back We didn’t sleep that night because then we were like we’ve had 25 years to process this these kids are babies and You know, they’ve got to process that but they’ve come to say that you came to us with your most heinous act

and you’ve leveled the playing field so that we can come to you with anything. And I think that was the blessing of it because I’ve always prayed through moms in prayer that our kids would have great communication. And I’ve heard more than enough things that I never wanted to hear as a mother and plenty of things that are just so sweet, intimate times with your kids.

So I just wanted that to be said because people might be wondering, well, what do we do with this? And for us, it was our story. It wasn’t like Pete and somebody else or me and somebody else. It was our story.

Shannon Popkin (40:57) Right. Yeah.

Which is, yeah, that’s unique. Well, and I think sometimes we’re so hesitant to tell other people about our sin as if we’re trying to create this facade that we haven’t sinned in great, grievous ways, right? And so, I mean, I think, I don’t, mean, I don’t think we should do so flippantly. I love the fact that you prayed very carefully before sharing this information, but

⁓ I always have referred to this at least a dozen times on this podcast. There’s this book called The Gospel Primer and he takes the gospel step by step and he talks about how, wouldn’t I proclaim my sin from the mountaintops? Jesus has already done that. By dying on the cross, he’s already said, my sin is bad enough. That that’s what it took to take care of it. And so now that it’s all out in the open, why would I be so

Tammy De Armas (41:38) Thank

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (41:56) you know, so against revealing the ways that I’ve fallen, the ways that I failed the Lord. And in no way are we glorifying, you know, the sin itself, but I think we glorify the Father when we’re willing to humble ourselves and share, yeah, this is the way that I’ve sinned and I too am forgiven. And that’s, I mean, what you were saying to your kids in that moment is, and you can be forgiven too.

Tammy De Armas (42:01) Hey.

No. Yeah. Right.

Shannon Popkin (42:24) You know, this ⁓ is in our past and we would love for you to never have something like this that you have to confess. I all of us, like I

feel like every generation, we want to save the next generation from our sins, from our failings, from our flaws. And every generation, it’s just like the one before where we do sin, we do fall.

Tammy De Armas (42:46) No, no, absolutely

Shannon Popkin (42:54) Jesus lived that perfectly righteous life on our behalf. He’s the one we point to, not ourselves.

Tammy De Armas (42:58) not.

Shannon Popkin (43:03) Yeah. All right. Well, that’s great. We’ll find a way, a place to

put that in and my assistant’s good at doing that stuff. I’m glad, I’m really glad you, that, that’s what we talked about when we were in Arizona. ⁓ and I forgot to do, I got to do one more intro for the second. ⁓ So I’ll just do this real quick. ⁓ Dearmis, Dearmis. Okay. There we go. And wait, where’s my little.

Tammy De Armas (43:12) In Arizona, yeah.

Hey, Hermes. You got it?

Shannon Popkin (43:35) Well, we have Tammy D’Armas back for a second episode. Tammy is the director for Mission and Advancement at Passion Life, which is a global pro-life organization. And Tammy and her husband Pete have been married for 37 years. They live in California with their three kids. And she’s back to tell us more about her post-abortion story. So Tammy, welcome back to Live Like It’s True.

Tammy De Armas (43:54) Yes.

And thank you so much for having me back. It’s just a really neat thing to be here and talk to you about this.

Shannon Popkin (44:13) All right, there, I think it’s a wrap. So thank you, my friend. It was so…

Tammy De Armas (44:15) Okay, perfect. Thank you.