Speaker 1 (00:00) Well, we have Stacey react back with us for part two of our conversation about mother-in-law and daughter-in-law relationship. Stacey is an author, a mom of four, married to Ben for 25 years. Ben is a pastor and she’s passionate about women studying the Bible together and applying the truth of the gospel to daily life. ⁓ She is a writer. She’s written for Desiring God, the Gospel Coalition and Revive Our Hearts.

my favorites right there and she’s written several books. ⁓ The one that we’re talking about today is called Making Room for Her. so Stacey, welcome back. We’re so thankful for you and just your vulnerability and sharing some of these really hard topics with us.

Speaker 2 (00:50) I’m glad I can be here. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 (00:52) Was there, like, I just am curious about the process of writing this book with your mother-in-law. Like, was it a little bit, I don’t know, vulnerable to do this? Whose idea was it?

Speaker 2 (01:04) Yeah, ⁓ it wasn’t, it was not our idea. So we were talking about writing a book together and we were tossing around ideas. We were actually thinking about writing a book on discipleship and discipling younger women or girls. And it was suggested to us, have you guys ever thought of writing on your relationship? And we were like,

Speaker 1 (01:12) Okay!

Speaker 2 (01:34) Not really. So no, we did not come with like, we have a burning desire to write this. So but as we talked about it and thought about it and realized, you know, we are not a perfect example. Like we’re not writing on this because we have it all together. And we’ve done everything right. I mean, we’ve had some rocky times, we’ve had some hard things, but we have grown. And maybe we do have some things we can offer to other women.

And we’re pretty unique pair that were both writers and have a similar passion. So, um, so yeah, but I will say this was probably my hardest project ever did. And, um, partly we were writing during COVID and so, and they were being very, very cautious because of some health issues. So I did not see her for a year and a half and we were writing this like having Zoom calls and phone calls and.

And I think even like a generational difference of like, what are you willing to share? Like I was willing to share a lot more than she was willing to share. And I think that was just a generational thing of her kind of more wanting to like box everything up with a pretty bow on it and, and me saying, but that’s not how they’re going to like, they need to know some of the hard things because most people are walking through hard things.

So it was, it was, we had some, we had some hard conversations and just even the chapter I shared with you, the expectations chapter, that was really hard to talk, to go back and visit and talk about that vacation because realizing in Barb’s mind, it was wonderful.

Speaker 1 (03:24) And

don’t mess with my beautiful memory.

Speaker 2 (03:26) I know. So it is, it is hard. was even hard for me, honestly, to share about it. because I think it hurt her to hear me say like, that was not a very fun vacation for me. so it was, yeah, we definitely went through some things just writing this, but in the end, I think it drew us closer together because we like,

came to understand each other better. And she said to me multiple times, she’s like, Stacey, I feel like I’m learning how to be a good mother-in-law now. Like, as we write this and I’m realizing things I should have not have said or should have done differently. And so, yeah.

Speaker 1 (04:04) I’m this as a…

Imagine, because you are layering scripture into these personal experiences. And I think I said this last time, like what we would say is the right answers in all of these other areas of life. They also apply to these very difficult in-law relationships. It’s just that we treat them as the exception. And so I’m so thankful that you did not do that. You went to this hard place. And I also love the way that in the book, you’re kind of toggling back and forth. It’s of your voices.

Speaker 2 (04:42) Yes.

Speaker 1 (04:44) And did you guys record the audio?

Speaker 2 (04:47) We didn’t know they just hired narrators. I wish they would have let us do it because when I heard it, I’m like, that doesn’t sound like me. ⁓

Speaker 1 (04:56) That’s funny.

But no, I thought it was really fantastic the way that you went back and forth. So let’s jump back into our conversation. In one part of the book, you talked about some people’s response is just, we’ll just have no expectations. Assume that you’re not going to have a great relationship, expect to have problems, just get rid of all expectations. And that doesn’t seem quite right, does it?

Speaker 2 (05:20) Right, yeah, think that that, you know, we can expect that the Lord can work. Like we can expect that God can do things and can change even the hardest heart, even the most difficult relationship. We can have hope because of the Lord working in our life and prayerfully working in our in-laws life too. That idea of like you don’t have any expectations is kind of the world’s mentality of like,

the in-law relationship is just ridden with problems. It’s just going to, you’re going to have problems. It’s going to be bad. You know, everybody loves Raymond, that show where like, you know, Deborah lives next door to her mother-in-law and it’s like the epitome of the critical over-involved mother-in-law who’s just showing up at their house all the time. So I think there is just unfortunately like a cultural expectation that this relationship is going to be hard and

it’s going to be bad and just be ready for it. And that too, unfortunately, I think makes us feel sometimes like it’s okay to complain about that relationship. It’s okay to vent or speak badly of my in-law because that’s what in-law relationships are like. I mean, even in writing this book, I interviewed a lot of women and it was interesting how, I mean,

people would hear that I was writing this and be like, you need to talk to my friend because she really has some other in-law stories. So it was very interesting because I did hear a very wide gamut of, pretty terrible stories. But just realizing as believers, we don’t need to stay like that. We don’t need to keep it like that. There is hope for change. There is hope that this can be.

a fruitful relationship and that even through conflict we have opportunities to grow.

Speaker 1 (07:14) That’s so good. It reminds me of the story of the blind man. That’s one of the stories that I’m looking at in this book, ⁓ where his eyes are opened. He comes back seeing. It’s the story where Jesus puts the mud on his eyes and tells him to go wash in the pool of Siloam. And he comes back seeing and people can’t, they don’t believe it’s him. They’re like, is that the guy? That can’t be the guy, you know? And they have this whole like, it almost sounds like a courtroom discussion that day. ⁓ And

They don’t even, they don’t think this is possible because they don’t yet know Jesus, right? And so we do know Jesus. And so there is something that is very limiting, very faithless, know, very ⁓ denying of what Christ can and will do. But we just have these expectations that are in relation, in-law relationships are just doomed for failure.

that it’s going to be like everybody loves Raymond and, did you hear? And I almost hear Stacey and that aghast, like, ⁓ that’s so awful. Well, you got to hear this. Well, this is even worse than that. And so look at how our words in those situations where everybody’s telling their in-law stories, everyone’s all aghast. we’re kind of like, look at what our words are expressing.

judgment, even if that’s not the word that we would use to label it, we are expressing this criticism and this ⁓ harshness. We’re not expressing the mercy of our Father in those moments. so let’s be really careful, especially in social situations. I mean, there were a lot of situations where I felt freedom to talk about what was going on in our private family relationships that

It wasn’t good. And someone should have called me out or I should have looked at the fruit of my own words coming out of my heart and like, this isn’t right, you know? ⁓ And so like, these are just ways that, but I love that you just said, ⁓ this is God’s opportunity to conform us to His own image. These tension points, these hard relationships.

rather than running from them, how can we pursue ⁓ becoming Christ-like through these relationships? Do you have any thoughts or tips on that?

Speaker 2 (09:48) Yeah, I mean, one thing I think about is, you when we when we’re up against something hard or have a difficult relationship, our natural tendency is to pull away, is to avoid that relationship, avoid that person. But I think what the Lord would want us to do is actually move towards that person. And as hard as it can be, we have the Spirit of God living in us that can give us courage and strength to take a step towards our in-law.

that’s difficult and look for ways to show love to them that means something to them. So before how we were talking about, you know, your mother-in-law that loved to give gifts. Well, if she loves to give gifts, she probably loved to receive gifts, right? so like looking for ways that we can blast that.

person looking for ways that we can show love, whether it’s through a gift or through a note or through initiating a phone call and just seeing how they are or seeing how their job is going or if there’s a way we can serve them or help them practically in some way. think of, know, Barb and Ron, my in-laws, ⁓ numerous times, even though they lived far away, numerous times would come and stay with their kids for a week or

a few days so my husband and I could get away, which we desperately needed, right? As young parents or even for us to go on a mission trip. Those were just practical ways that they served us and loved us. And I think it’s Barb grew to know me more. She would often come with chocolate because I love chocolate. So I think just, you know, looking for those ways. And also, I think

in a spirit of mercy and grace, overlooking as many offenses as we can. Proverbs 19, 11 tells us good sense makes one slow to anger and it is his glory to overlook an offense. So there can be so many things that we can get irritated with or be like, why did she say that that way? Or what did she mean by giving me that present? Or I remember one time as a…

young mom and new mom, I wanted so much to show Barb that I was super mom. I could do it all. I could keep my house clean and, you know, take care of my kids and be a good wife. And I remember her coming in sweeping my kitchen floor. And I remember thinking, she doesn’t think I’m keeping my house clean enough. Like she thinks that she needs to help.

because I’m a mess. And really she was just trying to serve me in a practical way. She saw that I needed some help. So I shouldn’t have looked at that as like, oh, she’s judging me for not being a good enough wife and mom. She was just trying to show love in a practical way. And thankfully as our marriage grew and I grew,

In like 10 years past that, I was like, here’s the broom, sweep my floor. I would love for you to do that. So thankfully I grew out of the stage of like, I wanna look like I’m perfect at everything. ⁓ But I think, know, like believing the best, overlooking offenses, moving towards them in love are all ways that we can grow in that relationship.

Speaker 1 (13:08) Yeah, the 1 Corinthians 13, our love chapter says, love hopes all things, right? And so that believing the best, it’s like that is the polar opposite of having this jaded, splitting every sentence and every word. Like, what does that word mean? And what did it mean that she swept the floor? Rather than overlooking any offense that might be there and giving the benefit of the doubt. I have this tendency toward a jaded perspective.

I just do. That’s in my judgy girl heart. I’m always weighing everything that everybody else is doing. Like, what is that saying about me? Right? And I think there’s just this openness. I also, when you’re saying like move towards someone, I feel that like when there’s tension, I just want to pull back. I don’t want to deal with it, especially in these relationships because so much rests on it. It’s like ⁓ I don’t want to jeopardize my relationship with my son.

Right? So with my daughter-in-law, I’ll just not say anything and stay away. But with my own mother-in-law, I remember even distancing myself physically. Like didn’t want to sit next to her. didn’t want the conversation to just be the two of us. I always wanted there to be other people in the room. I positioned myself in the room or in the way we were going to spend time so that I didn’t have any…

alone with her. Isn’t that so sad? And so instead of moving toward her, was self-protective. And in that, I mean, I feel like there’s judgment shrouded in that. Like, I don’t trust you, I don’t like you, and I’m going to protect myself from you. Whereas Christ was not that way. He gave up his life. ⁓ He went straight to the cross so that he could have a relationship with us. And if we’re to love as Christ loves,

then that involves like putting ourselves in a vulnerable position, putting ourselves in harm’s way, right? Where we could get hurt. But that’s what relationships are. You walk that aisle and you’re gonna get hurt by that person you’re marrying. And you pursue a relationship within laws that you’re going to get hurt. And yet love hopes all things. like we’ve said,

couple of times in this conversation, we believe that there was an empty tomb, which there’s a power living inside of us and inside of if there is another believer on the other side of the relationship, we believe all things are possible. okay, let’s shift the conversation though for a moment to we’ve talked about, you know, stuff like sugar and spending time together apart on a family vacation or whether it’s right to give gifts, I don’t know all these different

Like we don’t have Bible verses for those things. What about the ways that people actually have sinned against us in these relationships? What about the times where we can look at this person and say, she’s very wrong. You know, the way that she treated me, the way that she treated the kids, ⁓ or the way that my daughter-in-law just ignored me at that event, you know, whatever. This was wrong. And now what?

Speaker 2 (16:24) Yeah, that’s a hard question because every situation is different. And I still think we first go back to that principle of overlooking offenses. I mean, really, I can be hurt all the time. Like I’m a sensitive person. I can think, you know, someone made

a face towards me that expressed anger and they didn’t, you I can read into things that aren’t there. So, I mean, I always go back to is this is this a one time thing that just happened that I’m reading into that isn’t really a huge deal? Can I overlook this offense knowing how many offenses I have every day towards Christ and likely towards others? But I will also say if there is something that

it seems too big to overlook, which I think that’s a reality, right? Sometimes there are sins that need to be confronted. Then I think, you know, it is kind of applying that Matthew 18 principle of going to them and talking with them and first taking the log out of our own eye, right? And evaluating our own heart. And this is advice we give in the book ⁓ that we’ve seen in my husband and I do a fair amount of

pre-marriage counseling. But I would recommend if there’s an issue that’s happened that has been offensive that needs to be talked about between mother-in-law and daughter-in-law, that the son really leads in that conversation with his mom and is the one to gently

bring it up and talk about it. And not that the daughter-in-law is not present. I think it actually would be great if she’s present as well and can add to it. But I think when there’s a very delicate conversation that’s going to happen that could potentially be hurtful, I think it’s best if it comes from the child, the biological child, because there’s going to be a natural soft spot in the mom’s heart towards her son, where if it’s the daughter-in-law bringing it up of you did this,

and you really hurt me, a wall could go up very quickly, right? ⁓ But I think that there’s wisdom in letting the son in on this, the husband and wife talking this through together, letting him lead in the conversation. And then maybe the daughter-in-law is going to be adding in some things and they can have a group conversation about what happened and why it was hurtful and maybe how we could change it in the future.

And also being willing to receive feedback from say it’s the mother-in-law who offended the daughter-in-law. Well, also listening to the mother-in-law’s perspective because there’s likely a perspective that she has that we haven’t even thought about that the daughter-in-law hasn’t even considered. And so really listening to her and being willing to be humble and to receive correction as well. I think both sides need to be willing to receive correction and.

admit to wrongdoing because normally there’s a two-way street in whatever conflict has happened.

Speaker 1 (19:44) Yeah. Yeah. And there’s probably layers of emotion and fear, right? Fear of losing your son. Yes. losing. And now you and I are in that seat, aren’t we, Stacey? Right. We have a son that we dearly love and we’re putting him in the arms of another woman. And it’s hard. There’s a death there that, I mean, I’m so thankful for my daughter-in-law and

I’m so excited for their marriage. mean, it’s, and I know that you are too. And yet, ⁓ what are some of the things that you’re telling yourself as a new mother in law? Like, what are some of the thoughts from this book that you’re like, okay, yes, I need to remember this?

Speaker 2 (20:30) That’s a good question. mean and for the listeners hearing this so my son at the time of this recording has not yet proposed He’s he’s about to propose in three weeks ⁓ So this is all very new. This is all very fresh in my mind but as I was rereading Barb in my book and I just found myself stopping and praying for my relationship with my new soon-to-be daughter-in-law ⁓ I think one of the main things is like

taking time to invest in that relationship and realize like she’s not just the wife of my son, right? She’s another daughter. She’s another daughter that our family is being blessed with and I’ve really, I choked up. But I want her to feel welcomed and loved that she is a part of our family and that she is just.

as important as my I have two other daughters, ⁓ that she feels welcomed and loved and just desiring to be not just a mother-in-law, but desiring to be her friend. ⁓

Sorry, I think this is tender because of my mother-in-law passing, but she really over the years became a friend to me. She wasn’t just a mother-in-law, she was my friend. And she was someone that I would call if things were going really badly at church or we had a parenting issue that was laying heavy on our hearts. I knew I could call and talk to Barb and that she would pray for us that she was

for us, she would be interceding for us and that meant the world. So I just, hope I can be a mother-in-law like that.

Speaker 1 (22:22) That’s precious, Stacey. It wasn’t always that way though with Barb. I remember reading the part about when you got together after they were on the mission field for a couple of years and it was more strange than you were anticipating. So how, how did she cultivate that? mean, part of that is just testimony that she stayed in it and you stayed in it. And so you got to experience the fruit of that in a way that I honestly, when I look at my relationship with my mother in law, I didn’t.

You know, I didn’t invest in that way. didn’t, you know, I think we worked through it as much as we could. ⁓ I didn’t have as long, you know, think she died about maybe 12 years into marriage. and so that, you know, I didn’t have as many years and I didn’t have anyone mentoring me to invest. don’t, you know, I don’t remember anybody saying like,

This is an opportunity to be conformed in the image of Christ. Like, so, ⁓ you guys, you guys did that though. You invested, you stayed in it and got to experience. So how did you go from having this? Like, I don’t know. It just felt awkward and tense to, I want to be a mother-in-law like her who made me feel welcome and loved and that I could call her in my time of need. What did she do? Like what, what would you call attention to?

Speaker 2 (23:47) Yeah, I mean, obviously, think God working in both our lives and maturing both of us, it was hard because the first seven years of our marriage, like two weeks after Ben and I got married, they moved to South Africa and were there for seven years. And this was the time before cell phones, before Zoom calls, before texting. So we really didn’t communicate that much. And that’s a regret that I think both of us had was it was it was just kind of like we were

you know, living our lives and then they would come back like every, I don’t know if it was every year, every couple of years. And they would, they would, we’d have like three weeks with them in the summer, which was great. Had its own tensions, being together like for an intense chunk of time versus, and then not seeing each other for 11 months. But I think, you know, just we never live close together.

But I think just trying to stay in communication with each other, you know, through phone calls, through texting, through visits, ⁓ and deciding that this relationship is worth investing in. think Barb and I, it’s also interesting, you know, she was a writer as well. She started writing family devotionals actually for our family, for our kids when they were in South Africa. She wanted to invest in her grandkids.

And as a way of discipling them wrote these Christmas and Easter devotionals, which now are being used by thousands of people around the world, which is super cool. But so I do think it was sweet. The Lord gave us writing was something that we both kind of got into and became a a shared love and a shared hobby that we could talk about for a really long time. ⁓ But I think just knowing that she was seeking the Lord and that she, I just knew

that she prayed for us all the time. I knew every Saturday night she was praying for my husband who’s preaching Sunday morning and would send him a text that she’s praying for him. ⁓ So that just created like a safety net in a way of just knowing ⁓ she’s for us. And then some of those things earlier on that irritated me or that, you know, parenting things where maybe she would make a comment and I’d feel offended or feel judged.

Our sweet little floor. Yes. Yeah. I think as we both got older and matured, kind of realizing, you know, she did that out of love. She did that out of like wanting the best for her grandkids or wanting the best for our family. So just myself learning to view things through a lens of grace and a lens of ⁓ believing the best about her really helped.

Speaker 1 (26:36) So good. Well, is there anything else that you didn’t get to say that you wanted us to notice about ⁓ in-law relationships in the context of judging?

Speaker 2 (26:50) Yeah, I I think we covered a lot, I think we did a great job. I think, but I guess I would just add on at the very end for those that are struggling, that have a really hard relationship right now, because I know that there’s many people in difficult spots, that it’s a relationship still worth pursuing, even though it’s hard.

that God can change people. And most of all, that God can change me, that God can change our own hearts to be softened towards our in-law and to extend grace the way Jesus has extended grace to us. So just not to lose hope, but to still move forward in love and expect God to work.

Speaker 1 (27:38) Yeah, that’s so good. Well, thank you so much for sharing with us. This has just been ⁓ a joy. this book is a treasure, making room for her biblical wisdom for a healthier relationship with your mother-in-law or your daughter-in-law. Stacey, were you and Barbara kind of picturing that mothers and daughters would read this together, mother-in-law, daughter-in-law together?

Speaker 2 (28:02) Yeah, I mean, I think it just depends on your relationship. I’ve definitely heard of mothers and daughters-in-law reading it together and gifting it to each other. ⁓ But I also think mothers and daughters-in-law that are struggling might pick it up and read it just as a source of help. And I also think those that are getting engaged and about to become a mother-in-law, about to become a daughter-in-law, I hope that it’ll be a source of help and wisdom for them too.

Speaker 1 (28:30) Yeah, I plan to give one to my new daughter-in-law. this is great. And we’ve got some other relationships growing in our family. So I think it’s going to be a huge resource for all of us, Popkins. So it’s called Making Room for Her by Barbara and Stacey Reac. And you can get a copy anywhere books are sold. Stacey, where can people find you?

Speaker 2 (28:34) Aww.

You can find me on Instagram at staceyriak and on my website at staceyriak.com.

Speaker 1 (29:04) All right, well, thank you again.

Speaker 2 (29:06) Thanks for having me.