Shannon Popkin (00:02) Bill and Pam Farrell, welcome to Live Like It’s True.

Pam And Bill Farrel (00:06) So good to be with you, Shannon. Yeah, thanks for the invite.

Shannon Popkin (00:10) I’m just, I feel like super privileged to get this time with you. You guys are like veterans of the ministry world. I was reading through your bio. I think you’ve done it all. I don’t know, but it looks that way to me. Let me just,

Pam And Bill Farrel (00:26) We haven’t

done a podcast because we’ve been doing ⁓ caregiving for the last decade. And we were going to launch a YouTube channel and we got like a couple sessions in and Bill’s dad started spiraling down. So that’s still on the agenda. We want to grow up to be you, Shannon.

Shannon Popkin (00:40) Okay, yeah, Okay. come on. Yeah,

no. Well, this is, know, having you on the other end of the podcast, Mike, is just such a treat. So let me just tell our listeners a little bit about you in case they haven’t. You’re not familiar to them. You guys together have written over 60 books. And the one that is most familiar to me is this one. Men are like waffles and women.

are like spaghetti. I heard you speak on this years ago. I think it was on Focus on the Family. And I was like, oh, that is just so intuitively, yes, I get that. And such a helpful resource. But so many other books. Bill, you have been a pastor. You’ve served as a youth pastor, a lead pastor, a small groups pastor with David Jeremiah at the Shadowback Mountain Church.

a rich experience, you know, on the pastorate level and then PM2 in church ministry, women’s ministry director. But now it seems like, you mostly focusing on relationships, helping people with relationships?

Pam And Bill Farrel (01:48) We are.

We are. Bill has a full docket of relationship coaching. So he works one-on-one or with couples or families, which he’s like super gifted at. You’ll hear a little bit later why, because like if we come from crazy, so crazy doesn’t scare us. Yeah. And broken, dysfunction, all that, all that. So helping people get healthy and helping their relationships be healthy. That’s why our ministry is called Lovewise.

Shannon Popkin (02:02) Yeah.

Pam And Bill Farrel (02:18) We like to say we park ourselves on the corner of God’s love and God’s wisdom. And we have a nonprofit and it carries the theme verse. Which is Proverbs 19, eight. The one who gets wisdom loves life. We all want to love life. Yeah. And that’s been a theme of our life. I think ever since we got married, we, when we got married, we realized we love Jesus, we love each other, and we have no idea what we’re doing. Right. We started trying to figure out how does this thing work?

Shannon Popkin (02:43) Yeah.

Pam And Bill Farrel (02:48) Like we both grew up in homes we couldn’t just emulate the homes we grew up in. We love our parents, we knew our parents loved us, but we were like, there’s too much unhealthy going on here and we have to figure out how do you have a healthy relationship and how do you raise a healthy family? And that’s been a pursuit of ours now for over four decades trying to figure that out. So when we read something in the Bible, our biggest question is, okay, yes, we want to obey.

But how? What does it look like?

Shannon Popkin (03:17) Wow,

yes. Well, you fit right in here, because this is like live like it’s true. We want our lives to align with the truth of the Bible. So, ⁓ so important. I have one getting married this summer. So I don’t remember if I told you that Pam and I had a car ride a few months back, which is what prompted this whole conversation. And I can’t remember if I shared, it’s my first time, you know, having one walk the aisle. And I think both of these kids come from really strong.

Pam And Bill Farrel (03:35) We did.

Shannon Popkin (03:47) Christian homes and yet still we feel like, man, there’s so much, I don’t know, and I don’t know what to tell them, you know? It’s just like this huge step of faith walking that aisle not knowing what’s on the other side of it, but knowing God will, mm-hmm.

Pam And Bill Farrel (04:00) Right. Where to start. And it’s always

a step of faith. You know, even if you come from great, healthy homes, Christian values, you know, as a foundation, it’s still a step of faith because to make a marriage work every day, each person needs to walk, lock step with Jesus. It’s all about Jesus. And he’s like that super glue that can get you through anything. And, we did learn something on our first.

Shannon Popkin (04:06) Right.

Yes.

Pam And Bill Farrel (04:29) you know, when our first son got married, because he was also young. We were young when we got married. We were 20 and Brock and Hannah were 20 and 21 and both senior year Liberty. So they got married before their senior year. And so we realized, okay, my job as a mother-in-law is when they share something about their plan for the wedding.

Shannon Popkin (04:45) Okay. Okay.

Pam And Bill Farrel (04:57) say that sounds great or that is interesting, how much you want me to make the check for. Other than that, I probably don’t want your opinion.

Shannon Popkin (04:59) Ha ha ha!

Ha ha ha!

Thank you for that pro tip. I will receive that in love. That’s really good advice. So, well, and how, okay, so how old are your kids now? Because, you know, that really plays into this conversation, parenting.

Pam And Bill Farrel (05:21) Yeah.

Our oldest will be 41 this year. No, he will be 42. 42 in December. has a, their kids are the tween to, our oldest granddaughter is going to be a senior in high school. Our next son will be 40 on his next birthday. his kids are in the elementary school age. And then we have a 35 year old.

Shannon Popkin (05:39) Okay, wow, okay.

Pam And Bill Farrel (05:48) and their kids are like little babies and talk to us.

Shannon Popkin (05:51) Okay. And I love how

Pam’s feeling and about the babies too. You know, it’s so important. It’s such a joy.

Pam And Bill Farrel (05:55) Right. That’s the payoff of being patient, especially with

your teens and adult kids.

Shannon Popkin (06:02) Exactly. Didn’t you say like the blessing? Tell me, tell me that blessing again. If it’s like the

Pam And Bill Farrel (06:08) the blessing

of being patient with your teens and adult kids is grandkids.

Shannon Popkin (06:13) Yes, and not killing them, right? It’s like they survived you.

Well, one of the things in this topic that my mind keeps coming back to, we’re in this judgy series, you know, talking about the problems that we believers have with judging one another, feeling judged by one another and the division and the strife that this creates.

not only in our families, but in our churches and in our communities. And how can we respond, you know, in a godly way? What does God teach about judgment and mercy? And so one of the things that I keep hearing people keep sending me articles about and ⁓ just talking with friends who are going through it is this new trend to go no contact or very low contact with your parents. So it’s like we have adult children who are saying, no, thank you.

You know, my mom is toxic, my dad is a narcissist, and we’re just gonna go either no contact or very low contact. And so like, first of all, are you guys familiar with this trend? ⁓ And how do you see this as a form of us judging one another?

Pam And Bill Farrel (07:26) Definitely familiar with the trend. In fact, because we’re out there doing marriage conferences and now doing even conferences for second half of life, so grandparents and ⁓ marriage conferences with folks that are releasing adult kids and then parenting conferences. ⁓ We hear that feedback a lot. And our kids, they are helping people their age

Shannon Popkin (07:37) Mmm.

Pam And Bill Farrel (07:56) not do that radical no contact thing. They’re like, no, no, save the relationship. know, hey, try again, try this. So we’re seeing our kids help their peers. And it’s really quite unfortunate. ⁓ when Shannon, when you and I were driving in the car, I’m like, ⁓ yes, I like towing, get that because it’s like, Bill and I, if anybody.

Shannon Popkin (07:59) Okay.

Pam And Bill Farrel (08:21) could have said no contact because of the craziness we came from, it would have been us. But we wanted to model for our kids how to be a bridge builder instead of burning down the bridges.

Shannon Popkin (08:32) Yeah. Yes. Well, and I love

that your kids have adapted this and they’re, you know, offering it to one another. So Bill, what were you going to say?

Pam And Bill Farrel (08:43) Well, I think it comes across as being judgmental, but I don’t think that’s the core of what’s happening. Like what I think is happening is that we’ve not trained this generation how to honestly evaluate people who are highly influential in your life. So as parents, when we’re raising our kids, we have huge influence in our kids’ lives. know, kids come pre-programmed to believe everything their parents say.

So we developed a strong sense of influence in their life. And later on in life, when their kids become adults, if they don’t know how to evaluate that influence, then they react to it. And I think they become negative about it. So I actually believe one of the most important steps in adulthood is the day that you honestly evaluate your parents. And I think it’s what the Bible refers to when it says,

And for this reason, a man will leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife and the two will become one flesh. Well, in the West, we tend to interpret that as we physically leave our parents’ house, we start our own house, and then we try to determine how much time we should spend with our parents. But when that verse was written, people didn’t move away from their parents. It was an agrarian society. When you got married, you just got another portion of the property.

Shannon Popkin (10:01) Okay.

Pam And Bill Farrel (10:07) You set up your own tent or built your own house and you kept working with your parents every day because your livelihood depended on it. So that leaving and cleaving process, it’s an evaluation. what I think, well, I know what Pam and I did and what I think we’re supposed to do is at some point you’re supposed to sit down and say, what did my parents do that was really good? And honor them for that. And we’re going to adopt all that because

Our parents have such influence in our life that the things they did well become assets in our life that are easy to access. And then what did my parents not do well? Because all of us are human, amen? So even if we’re great parents, there are areas of life that we didn’t do well. And if our kids can say, you know, our parents weren’t really good at that, so let’s release them from responsibility in that area. And find a good role model and mentor.

Shannon Popkin (10:48) Mm-hmm.

Pam And Bill Farrel (11:04) and learn in that area, ask God to teach us and grow us up in that area that was a deficit in our parents’ lives. ⁓ And by doing that, like Bill always says, like honor your father and mother doesn’t mean you do everything they say because nobody is like perfect, as we mentioned. And sometimes what our parents or grandparents say or do may not align with the word. And so what it means is

take the family legacy where God designed it to go. And so in that way, you can keep the relationship, redefine it, ⁓ take what’s good, build on it, replace the things that are not so great, and then use that to move the family legacy forward. What happens right now in society is our kids, because they’ve grown up, like in general in society, this age of kids,

have grown up digital natives. And so it used to be, if you’re having problems with your parents, you could go talk to grandma and grandpa, or you could talk to one of their siblings, your auntie or uncle, and try to figure out what’s going on and how can we help this and how can I fix this and how can I have a better relationship? It was relationship driven. You might go talk to your pastor. But now they just hop on social media and so many,

Shannon Popkin (12:25) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Pam And Bill Farrel (12:32) influencers on social media are just like, ⁓ cut that toxic person off. Like never see them again. ⁓ you don’t need them if they’re not like, ⁓ if they’re not making you feel wonderful, warm and fuzzy every moment of the day, just like release them, get rid of them. And so they’re very short-sighted in the area of relationship, those social media influencers. and unfortunately I kind of crept into some of the counseling world.

Shannon Popkin (12:39) Mm-hmm.

Release them, Mm-hmm.

Pam And Bill Farrel (13:02) And like Bill and I know that sometimes you’ll have to have boundaries and we can talk about what that looked like in our life. But we didn’t want to model for our kids. If you don’t get along with somebody, just cut them out of your life. I mean, pretty soon in life, it’s like really, really small. Right. So what we’re doing is we’re taking the stuff we didn’t do well and using it to define the whole relationship. Right. So now we take a negative view of our parents and then we decide to break contact. And that’s sad.

Shannon Popkin (13:17) Right. Yes, absolutely.

Hmm.

Okay,

okay.

Pam And Bill Farrel (13:33) And it’s not necessary. Like, again, we all had imperfect parents and some parents are more difficult than others. Like, that’s just that’s the landscape we live in. But you can honestly evaluate. You can take the good, you can replace the bad and you can keep the relationship going. But if you think if you don’t deal with the influence and you’re reacting to it, then it leads to this conclusion of we just need to break, break time with them. And if you keep burning down bridges.

Shannon Popkin (13:42) Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Pam And Bill Farrel (14:02) you’re gonna end up with a deficit in your own life. There’s things that God wants to use people for to like iron sharpens iron, you know? And Shannon, we know family trends tend to repeat themselves. So if kids are breaking contact with their parents, it’s likely their kids are gonna break contact with them. Right. We don’t want this to keep going. Right. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (14:12) Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It’s

a runaway train. Well, Bill, talk to me about what do we do when we’re the one who’s being told there were some things that you didn’t do right? I think even just that, even that much feels like my kid is judging me. They’re evaluating me. So on that glorious day when my adult child decides, like, OK, this is the day I’m going to leave and cleave. I’m going to look at my

my parents through this lens of what the Bible holds up as true and right. And so I am now looking square in the face some of my deficits. what do do about that?

Pam And Bill Farrel (15:10) First of all, I think we need to own it. Like I told my kids when they were leaving our house, I told them, hey, look, you need to sit down with your wife, because we raised all boys, and feel free to evaluate Pam and I. And even as they went away to college, we gave them that freedom, too. Like you’re going to hear about different family styles and things like that.

Shannon Popkin (15:12) Mm-hmm.

Pam And Bill Farrel (15:32) we know that we’re not perfect. And Bill even said, you know, when you do the evaluation, if you can’t think of anything that we did wrong, we’ll hand you a list because we can think of stuff that we did wrong, our shortcomings. Right. so like, like give them permission to do that and, and own it. You know, if we really did do stuff that wasn’t healthy, go, you know what? You’re right. And, and I hope, I hope you find a way to replace that behavior in your adult life so that the legacy of our family gets better.

Shannon Popkin (15:43) Yeah, yeah.

Pam And Bill Farrel (16:01) with each generation. And then add in, I hope you don’t think it was all negative. I hope you can give me credit for the good stuff, but you have my permission to deal with the stuff that I didn’t do well, because I did that. I made some mistakes and nobody trained me ahead of time how to be a parent. I was doing my best and trying to figure it out. And even if we took parenting classes, we’re just like…

not perfect people. And so we made a apply it exactly how God would have wanted us to or whatever. The worst thing we can do is get defensive. Yeah. Because if you get defensive about it, it strengthens their opinion that, yeah, I can’t work with mom, I can’t work with dad. It’s good to reply back something like, you know what, our relationship is changing or both, you know, you’re an adult now, God’s calling you to become your own person and

Dad and I are really excited about that or if you’re a single parent, I’m really excited about that. And I hope you know that the foundation, the underlying intent is always been love. And I will always love you. There’s nothing that you can say or do that will stop my love for you. I love you how God loves you and that is unconditional. So it’s kind of a safety net that you put under the relationship at that point.

It’s really hard to do and you have to like put on all your grownup strength to do it because it hurts, you know, when they say, you know, something like you’re toxic or you’re a narcissist. And oftentimes you’re like, you want to say, so when did you get your PhD in psychology? But that does not help at that point. Yeah. And it’s always good to get them to define their terms if they’re throwing terms at us. Because we are throwing a lot of terms around.

Shannon Popkin (17:28) yeah. Mm-hmm.

Right.

Hmm.

Pam And Bill Farrel (17:53) And

we’re using the word narcissist with a lot of people who are just like, we’re all selfish. And so sometimes that narcissistic label gets just, it just gets put on selfish behavior. Cause if you’ve ever been in a relationship with a true narcissist, you will know it because it is very difficult. And you will probably need professional counseling to help navigate that.

Shannon Popkin (18:18) Yeah, I’ve encountered more than a handful of people who have said, I did not know that I was raised by narcissists. Is that maybe an indicator that they’ve added a label that doesn’t belong?

Pam And Bill Farrel (18:33) Right? Cause usually if, if one of the parents is a narcissist, it’s usually just one because they tend to marry somebody who’s not so they can control them. So when, somebody says I was raised by narcissists, well that, yeah, right there, there’s a flaw probably. Cause only one of them probably was if, if at all. Um, if you say as self selfish person, yeah, pretty much all of us were raised by people that are a little bit selfish.

Shannon Popkin (18:42) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

What are those labels? Go ahead.

Pam And Bill Farrel (19:05) Well, one of the things we need to, as people are trying to reach back to our kids, we need to be calm in the conversation because the environment that our kids are growing up in and our grandkids especially are growing up in this environment, they’re getting life in snapshots. Like social media is taking these terms, throwing them out there, but they’re not developing them. And so kids will pick up on this, young adults will pick up on it.

And they haven’t really worked through the process. Like what does it mean to be a narcissist? What does it mean to be dysfunctional? What does it mean to be toxic? Those terms are getting thrown around without being developed. And if we’re calm about it and we can get them to engage in conversation. Like, well, that’s interesting. What do you mean by that? Because if I am a narcissist, I want to know.

And between us, anybody who wants to know if they’re a narcissist is not a narcissist. So we want to try to help them grow and develop. Like, don’t know if you’ve heard a lot about the attachment theory has become another really popular thing that’s rolling around. And it’s being thrown around as if it’s well established. And if it is the answer to why I do what I do in relationships and as a mom, you should know.

Shannon Popkin (20:05) Okay, that’s true.

Pam And Bill Farrel (20:30) Like attachment theory basically blames the mom. That however you related to your mom is how you’re relate to everybody else the rest of your life. Well, it is a component of how people develop their theory about relationships. It’s not the defining principle, but it’s being thrown around as if it is. So we can be of great assistance to the next generation by engaging them.

and helping them fill out their understanding of what all these things mean. But if we react to it, we’re just establishing that, yeah, they’re right. In our singles book, we wanted to help people know the difference between what does love look like and what does toxic look like. And so I thought, okay, love is patient, kind, doesn’t envy, does not boast, does not proud.

Shannon Popkin (21:01) Yeah.

Hmm. Yeah.

Pam And Bill Farrel (21:24) is not rude, is not self-seeking, is not easily angered, it keeps a record of wrongs, love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth, it always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres, love never fails. So I thought, okay, if that is how God defines love in 1 Corinthians 13, then what would toxic be? And I thought, well, let’s just turn that inside out and backwards. Toxic is impatient and unkind, toxic is envious and jealous, toxic boasts and is self-glorifying.

Toxic is arrogant and proud, self-centered and rude. Toxic easily loses its temper and keeps track of all offenses and holds a grudge. Toxic is thrilled when people look and feel stupid. Toxic loves a mistake because he or she can tell everybody of the error and replay it over and over again. Toxic runs to evil, never protects others, and gives up on people and life easily. ⁓ so oftentimes in that whole cut off the relationship,

The person that’s doing that can start having some of the traits of toxic. And you don’t want to do that. You want to stay as close to that 1 Corinthians 13 as possible in all of your relationships.

Shannon Popkin (22:27) There you go.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

That’s really good because I mean, I’m just thinking like you said, Bill, we tend to do what we’ve learned. And so if we have these generational gaps where there’s just breakage of relationship one generation after another, that is not in God’s design. He designed for us to disciple and that there would be this like

We disciple our children, they honor us. There is a bridge between the generations. Also with the leave and cleave, right? We all get to reshuffle the org chart and prioritize, you know, that leaving and cleaving. I think it’s a priority statement, right? It’s not a, don’t belong to this family tree anymore. It’s just like, no, this is the top branch for me now. You know, this covenant.

Pam And Bill Farrel (23:29) It’s a passing of the baton. Right. And Psalms, over and over in the Psalms, you hear that principle. One generation speaks of the good works of God to the next generation, to the generations to come. And so we know that it’s not just cutting off a relationship. It’s staying in the family tree and learning to love like God loves in that family tree.

Shannon Popkin (23:37) Yes.

Well, I’m gonna cut in here because we have so much more from Bill and Pam to explore together. And so, and I don’t want you to miss any of it. So cap off our conversation here. And next time we’re gonna hear a little bit more from Bill about the family that God redeemed Bill from. And I know you’re gonna wanna hear that.