Shannon Popkin (00:02) Well, friends, we are in for a treat because we have not just one but two amazing guests here today. Courtney and Hunter, welcome to Live Like It’s True.

Courtney Doctor (00:13) Thanks for having us.

Hunter Beless (00:15) Thank you. Good to be here.

Shannon Popkin (00:15) We’re

so excited to have you. So let me just give our guests, if they don’t know you, a little background on you. Courtney has an MDiv from Covenant Theological Seminary. She’s a Bible teacher and director of Women’s Initiatives for the Gospel Coalition. She and her husband, Craig, have four kids and five grandchildren. Wow, five grandkids. I’ve seen a-

Courtney Doctor (00:39) It’s the best.

Shannon Popkin (00:40) some pictures I think on

Instagram so fun such a fun fun stage of like boys or girls.

Courtney Doctor (00:44) It’s so fun. It’s so fun.

Four boys and one girl. The youngest is a girl and we’re actually having her birthday party here tomorrow. So I know it’s so fun. Well, she got to decide it. So it’s ponies and mermaids, which, right? Of course. I did buy, so we have a pony and we’re giving pony rides and I did buy this hot

Shannon Popkin (00:50) you-

my goodness, what’s the theme? Is it just all pink or?

Well, there you go.

Hunter Beless (01:01) Of course. Are you

Courtney Doctor (01:08) pink hoof polish that sort of look like her little hooves are painted. I’m gonna braid her mane. I know it’s gonna be very fun, very fun.

Hunter Beless (01:13) So cool!

Shannon Popkin (01:13) yes. So fun.

You know what? How old is she turning? Four. When my daughter turned four, we had a pony party. It’s just bringing back all the memories, yeah? A lady from our church. No, no, no. A lady from our church offered to let the girls come over and we just did little pony rides. It was the best. So you’re gonna have a great time.

Courtney Doctor (01:25) You did!

Hunter Beless (01:29) Do you both have pony? a lady from your church has ponies.

Courtney Doctor (01:37) It might be my side gig.

I might have to start that pony birthday party in all my spare time.

Shannon Popkin (01:41) Yeah, without, yeah, you don’t have anything else to do. Well, I mean, Courtney

Hunter Beless (01:41) In all your spare time.

Shannon Popkin (01:47) does keep herself busy. She writes books too. And last time we had her on talking about From Garden to Glory. And you might recall too, before that, we had you talking about the fall. It was such a great conversation about the Eve and the serpent. rooted in garden, from Garden to Glory too.

But Hunter, this is your first time here. So thank you for making time. Hunter and her husband Brooks have four amazing kids who memorize the Bible faster than them. And Hunter, you have written several books, including Read It, See It, Say It, Sing It. you’re all about memorizing, training your kids up to know the Word of God. I love

Hunter Beless (02:18) They do

Courtney Doctor (02:18) I know.

Shannon Popkin (02:31) how you do that. And so the two of you together have written a Bible study for women called Titus, displaying the gospel of grace. Is it just for women? I’m assuming that.

Courtney Doctor (02:42) It is written for women. it’s through LifeWay Women. Yeah, exactly.

Hunter Beless (02:42) Yes, it is. Lifeway women.

Shannon Popkin (02:43) Okay, okay, yeah, yeah, that’s,

And there’s video teachings also, right? Okay, yeah.

Courtney Doctor (02:49) There are, we’re really excited about those just because they’re a little

Hunter Beless (02:50) Yes.

Courtney Doctor (02:52) different. They’re conversational and.

Shannon Popkin (02:54) Are you like, I mean, I’m trying to picture, are you like seated in the videos or are you, you know?

Hunter Beless (03:00) We’re

Courtney Doctor (03:00) or tell

about where we were sitting. Where we were sitting.

Hunter Beless (03:01) everything. We’re everything. my goodness. Lifeway does such an amazing job with their video content, Shannon. It was crazy. I’ll never forget Courtney and I are upstairs kind of rehearsing for the videos and we look down and out in the yard they had set up a stage with a couch and the Blue Ridge Mountains are just like.

Shannon Popkin (03:03) alright.

Courtney Doctor (03:08) Uh-huh.

Shannon Popkin (03:25) My goodness.

Hunter Beless (03:25) cascading behind us and we were like,

Courtney Doctor (03:27) Mm-hmm.

Hunter Beless (03:27) We’re like, okay, everybody dispel all of the assumptions that you have about discipling. And yet here we are in the middle of the Blue Ridge mountains in the absolute most gorgeous context ever. Having a conversation.

Courtney Doctor (03:36) Exactly. Well, you know, we’re all like it. Yeah, it doesn’t have to be a perfect setting. It doesn’t have to. And then we’re

Shannon Popkin (03:39) Yeah, yeah.

Courtney Doctor (03:45) in this like surreal in Asheville blue. Yes. Yes. It was so, but it was beautiful and fun. Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (03:47) Though we are in a perfect…

Hunter Beless (03:48) So picturesque. It’s beautiful. It’s beautiful. It is. We were

in Asheville, North Carolina. So yeah, yeah, it was really, really fun to get to learn from Courtney because I have never done anything like that. I’ve never, you know, recorded video teachings and whatnot. And Courtney having her by my side made it a much more pleasant experience. We had a good time.

Shannon Popkin (03:54) I can’t wait to see them. Okay.

Yes, and that is not to say though, Hunter, that you’ve never recorded anything. Because I forgot to mention you are the, when I was introducing you, I forgot to mention the Journey Woman podcast, which is like, I’m sure a favorite of many of our listeners. So, well, that sounds amazing. I can’t wait to watch these videos. I did get a chance to look at the book and I absolutely loved it. I just love the way that it’s put together.

Courtney Doctor (04:12) It was so fun. My privilege. My joy.

Exactly. Thank you. Thank you.

Hunter Beless (04:23) You

Courtney Doctor (04:25) you

Hunter Beless (04:37) Praise God.

Shannon Popkin (04:40) You know, you’re interspersing teaching with great questions and bringing us back to how do we live, like, how do we display the gospel of grace, you know, the truth of this book of the Bible. So, all right, so first this episode is going to be a little bit different than our typical ones because we usually look at narratives of the Bible. And this is a Bible study about an epistle, a letter.

Hunter Beless (04:51) Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (05:05) And so what I want to do with our time is talk first about the two of you and your friendship and how like it’s, modeling what we see with this book of the Bible. But then also I do want to talk about the book of Titus and kind of maybe the story behind it’s the occasion for writing this, like what’s going on in these people’s lives. so let’s start with this one, Courtney.

How is Hunter the Titus to your Paul? How does your friendship kind of model what we see? This is a letter from Paul to Titus. And how do you see that in your relationship with Hunter?

Courtney Doctor (05:42) Well, I have a hard time claiming that I am the Paul in anybody’s relationship, but I am the older saint to the younger saint, which is what Paul and Titus had going on. So Hunter and I are almost exactly 20 years apart. And we don’t really know how, the age difference was between Paul and Titus, but we do know that there was an age difference. Paul considered Titus his true son in the faith. And that’s what he calls him at the beginning of the letter. And so, so there’s this older, younger.

Shannon Popkin (05:47) Yeah.

Courtney Doctor (06:12) thing going on, which is actually when Hunter called with this idea. So Hunter and I have been friends for a long time and we had wanted to do something together. And so when she called and said, what about the book of Titus? I was like, no, no, no, no, no. You know, the whole Titus too that I think has just been so overdone and overplayed and we’ll get there. We’ll talk about that. But she said, well, what if it was more like.

Paul and Titus and I was like, oh, that’s really intriguing to me because here you have two people, Paul and Titus, that are passionately trying to follow Jesus. They are both called into ministry and the older one is speaking into and pouring into the younger one and learning from, I mean, it’s a mutual learning relationship and we see that where he says, you know, even in like our common faith, I mean, there’s a peer level.

equity in that of like, we’re both followers of Jesus, but then the true son is kind of highlighting, but I’ve been doing this a little bit longer. And so we have that dynamic going on. And so it’s just a beautiful opportunity to, to actually live out what Titus talks about. And so even as we would wrestle through a text,

we were able to say, theoretically and theologically, is this actually playing out practically in our lives? Is this what it looks like? And how do we do this in a way that’s helpful? So I think it’s really sharpened and informed both of our lives of discipleship.

Shannon Popkin (07:44) And I feel that Courtney, I think wherever I go and meet with churches, there is…

a shortage, a lack of the older women willing to pour into the younger because I think there’s just like an intimidation. Like I don’t think I’m ready. I don’t think I have anything. And so any of us could opt out. but I’m so glad that you didn’t write and, and that you’re offering yourself cause Hunter, mean, she’s pretty cool and she’s pretty amazing. know, I know. So

Courtney Doctor (08:12) Pretty cool. I mean, just look at her. Look at her. I know. I know.

Hunter Beless (08:16) I think my family and friends

would beg to differ.

Shannon Popkin (08:21) So Hunter, though, tell us about your relationship with Courtney. know, so would you call this a mentoring or a discipleship relationship?

Hunter Beless (08:30) Yeah, well, first off, I just am so grateful for you both. I’m like getting tender in the closet, which is where I typically record these podcasts. Just thinking about what a sacrifice you guys are making for those of us who are just a few steps behind you. And I am just so utterly grateful. And to any older woman listening, which Courtney and I always talk about how we’re both at any given moment, we’re both the older.

Shannon Popkin (08:38) you

Hunter Beless (08:57) and the younger woman at any given moment, at any given moment, we should be discipled and we should be discipling. And I am just so thankful. And we need you, older women, to be speaking into our lives, even if your perception is that we don’t think we need you. We do need you. So thank you so much, both of you. It’s an honor to get to sit in the closet, honestly, and talk about these things with you.

I feel like the term mentoring and discipleship has been used pretty frequently, like interchangeably, but I do feel as though discipleship is, even though it’s actually not like a biblical term used in scripture, it is, the concept is a lot deeper than mentoring. So mentoring is kind of a more secular kind of idea. Cambridge says it’s the act or process of helping and giving advice.

to a younger or less experienced person, especially at a job or school. And so in a sense, I do feel like Courtney certainly has been mentoring me. You know, when LifeWay came to me and they asked, hey, would you consider writing a Bible study? I knew my need for somebody who had done that before to show me what it looked like to do that because I had never written a Bible study. It’s part of the reason I reached out to Courtney. And yet along the way and through that process,

it our relationship has deepened to more than just teaching and training and how to write a Bible study. I cannot tell you how many things I have come to Courtney with, problems in my life, things that I have been going through, questions that I maintain theologically, and she has offered her instruction and all of that has been rooted in some way or tethered to scripture. So in our study, we say that discipleship is teaching and training and godliness in the context of relationship, right? Because you can

learn things from people at a distance. But the key component that we really want to highlight is that you have to know the person that you are investing in and discipling. And also, likewise, you have to know the person who is investing in you. And I think that is when we’re able to put into practice kind of the instruction that we see in Titus, which is where we derive our definition. So Titus 2.1, teaching what accords with sound doctrine.

You know, if we’re looking specifically at women, two, three, older women are to teach what is good, and two, four, they’re to train younger women. So that’s where the teaching and the training and godliness component comes in. So to answer your question, I think that discipleship is a distinctly Christian practice. And man, I am such a beneficiary of just older women investing in me spiritually.

Shannon Popkin (11:34) Hmm.

Hunter Beless (11:43) and welcoming me to follow them as they follow Jesus.

Courtney Doctor (11:47) and

discipleship is always a two-way street, right? We’re never just the.

Shannon Popkin (11:50) Hmm.

Courtney Doctor (11:52) the teacher or the learner too. And so in the same way, I mean, it’s a, am learning just as much from Hunter. She sharpens me and shapes and informs the way I lean into things. and not just in the stuff that we laugh and joke and say like, well, she’s going to disciple me in social media or like what headphones should I wear for my podcast or whatever? But I mean, in the scriptures. So she mentors me in those.

Hunter Beless (12:18) hahahaha

Courtney Doctor (12:18) in those very practical ways, but she disciples me too towards

godliness. then even as you were talking Hunter about we’re always the older and the younger woman. you’re discipling a woman who is then discipling somebody else. And I was like, Hunter’s the grandma, the grandma discipler. that is, and then I was like, what does that make me the great? It was just like the most precious thing to realize. Like you’re already in this three generational.

Shannon Popkin (12:34) Aww.

Hunter Beless (12:34) Yes.

Courtney Doctor (12:44) discipleship thing, even though, you know, like in our relationship, you’re the younger woman, but how you are also stepping into the role as the older

Hunter Beless (12:45) Mmm.

Shannon Popkin (12:52) what I hear is a humility on both sides, right? that, Hunter, for you to have an opportunity to write a Bible study and say, I haven’t done this. I would love to be mentored through this, discipled through this. And I love that distinction between those two words. I hadn’t really thought about that.

You know, yeah, you’re right. Disciple comes from, discipling comes from Jesus’s disciples, right, who followed him, lived with him, knew him personally. And that distinctive of like, okay, this is something that does not involve just imparting information or wisdom. It’s like there is a relational component of this. And I’ve heard lots of people say, you know, I’m mentored by

Hunter Beless (13:17) Right?

Shannon Popkin (13:37) Tim Keller, but they didn’t know Tim Keller, they didn’t know John Piper, they don’t know Courtney Doctor or Hunter Biles, they don’t know you and claim you as their mentors. And so, I think what you’re putting before us is, this is something where we need to invest personally in our local churches, in the women that we know.

Hunter Beless (13:41) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (14:03) that are right beside us in the pew at church. Is that kind of what is what you’re suggesting here?

Hunter Beless (14:07) Mm.

I think that’s really our heart. we would hope that many women would grab this study and use it as a starting point, right? Where they can come together around the word. Because there’s nothing that can replace women in your local context,

Courtney Doctor (14:26) Right, even though we’re not in the same local context, we have real life relationships and we spend real life time together. You I’ve always said like, unless you can sit in my kitchen while I’m chopping vegetables and watch how I respond, you know, to when my dog takes something off the table or my husband irritates me or, you know, or you’re in my car and somebody cuts me off in traffic, that’s like the worst version of who I am. But if you don’t get to see those things, then it’s a…

Shannon Popkin (14:40) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Hunter Beless (14:45) Hahaha!

Shannon Popkin (14:46) Right? Right?

Yeah, right.

Courtney Doctor (14:53) It’s a very flat discipleship. mean, I discipleship as a thing of formation, like we’re definitely formed and shaped by people that we don’t actually know, but that flat one-dimensional knowledge of a person can actually be dangerous because we can highlight their strengths and we can think more of them than maybe if we knew them in real life, you know, they actually would allow.

Shannon Popkin (15:03) for sure, yeah.

Right, well…

And I think the other thing is screens don’t talk back, right? And so if your mentor, if your discipler is on a screen, it’s really easy to just click that button and turn them off when they’re saying something you don’t like And I don’t in any way want to detract from

like this amazing resource and others that are available to us today. we have a plethora of amazing, good teaching and resources today, but I think where we’re lacking is that, know, life on life, discipleship, and almost like we’re saying, well, I can get better teaching over here, I can get better discipling over here, but no, there’s something better about…

actually meeting with people in your life. And so that’s really what you have in mind when you put together this resource. You’re not picturing someone alone in her room watching the videos, right? You’re kind of picturing people together.

Courtney Doctor (16:15) Right. Yeah,

Hunter Beless (16:18) 100%. Yeah.

Courtney Doctor (16:18) in the local church. Yeah, in the local church.

Hunter Beless (16:21) And that was really our heart because there are a lot of resources specific to discipling, learning how to go about that process. And we really wanted to create something that was textually driven, meaning we wanted women to see in the text, the mandate to teach and train younger women in godliness.

we want them to be compelled by the scriptures to engage in this kind of relationship because we think that, you know, discipleship and mentoring ought to be rooted really in God’s Word and that everything should be coming from God’s Word. So we want, yes, to encourage women to gather together around God’s Word and to allow themselves to be shaped by its truths.

Shannon Popkin (17:10) Yeah, you know, it seems like some churches, maybe larger, more developed programming, you’ve kind of got Bible study over here, and then you’ve got mentoring over here, or maybe they call it discipleship, know, two-chair discipleship. But I think it’s really great when they can be intertwined, or at least when in your mentoring relationships, you’re centering those conversations around the word, right?

Courtney Doctor (17:34) They have

to be otherwise they are not discipleship. mean, so, you know, discipleship has to be word based and it has to be how the gospel. it’s not only life and life on life, but it’s all of life.

Shannon Popkin (17:38) Right.

Courtney Doctor (17:46) So how does the, if the conversation is not centered on, how does the gospel impact, and then you fill in the blank, because it is all of life. How does the gospel impact my leadership? How does the gospel impact my marriage? How does the gospel impact my, the way I work or the way I work out or the way I engage on social media or the way I parent or the, mean, way I care for my aging parents. But the centrality of discipleship is asking the question, how does the.

Hunter Beless (17:46) Hmm.

Hmm.

Courtney Doctor (18:13) Gospel impact that if you’re not answering that question, then you’re not discipling or you’re not being discipled. You’re getting good advice

Shannon Popkin (18:20) That’s powerful. That’s

really powerful. Yeah, because advice, I mean, that can change with generations and different mindsets, right? Like that could be very, yes, yeah. So how would this have been a different book though without one or the other of you?

Courtney Doctor (18:28) And it does, and it does, right?

Hunter Beless (18:40) certainly would not be as good without Courtney, as you can already tell. But, you know, getting down into the nitty gritty of it, I love theology. I love to, like, think academically. And so Courtney has really helped me not only in writing this study, but in my discipling relationships in my local church, right? Because a lot of the questions that I tend to ask, they are textually driven.

Courtney Doctor (18:43) You

Shannon Popkin (18:45) you

Hunter Beless (19:09) but they might be a little bit difficult to connect with. They may be a little too cerebral or heady. And so bringing those things down out of the clouds and onto the ground, like she’s talking about. So we’re talking about the gospel and now how do we apply its truths to everyday life? And so in my writing and specifically in the way I ask questions, which I think is one of the key skills, you know, of a Bible teacher and in helping write curricula and things like that, Courtney’s really helped me

come down out of the clouds and bring it into women’s lives in a way that they’re actually gonna be able to understand and relate to the questions that I’m asking. And so I found that to be so helpful.

Courtney Doctor (19:52) that’s so kind. mean, that’s, I guess I’m just a simple person. I’m like, we got to bring it down so that we can all, if I can understand it, then we’re good. Maybe that’s kind of where I land on that. Well, no, but I mean that, you know, just that earthiness of it. But I think also, I mean, it just would have lacked the depth of perspective that comes.

Shannon Popkin (20:00) Says the seminary graduate.

Hunter Beless (20:05) Right.

Courtney Doctor (20:17) through not only just collaboration. I collaboration is always, I I used to be the least collaborative person I know. When I was Hunter’s age, I was like, I’m just gonna do it and I don’t really want any help. But then as I’ve aged, I’m like, oh my word, everything is better when I collaborate. Everything is better, right? But also, it’s not just collaboration, it’s cross-generational collaboration. And so that really,

Hunter Beless (20:20) Ugh. So good.

So much better.

Courtney Doctor (20:43) It was just the way we wrestled through some of those things Hunter of trying to, you know, talk through and Hunter saying, well, women my age just wouldn’t see it like that, or they wouldn’t think like that. I mean, it was just so helpful. then because we’re actually doing the things we’re talking about in real time, because, know, we weren’t just writing a Bible study together. We were talking about how the gospel impacts all of life in, you know, a thousand different ways. And so was really requiring that we kind of test out what

Hunter Beless (20:46) Yeah.

Courtney Doctor (21:12) we’re talking about in the Bible study in real time, real space, real relationship. And so that was just one of the kind of unexpected joys and privileges I think of writing it

Shannon Popkin (21:13) Yeah.

Hunter Beless (21:22) Mm-hmm.

And I hope that’s the same for women who are doing the study. I’m really excited and I’m hopeful that.

Shannon Popkin (21:24) That’s a good.

Hunter Beless (21:29) older women and younger women will come together and to gaze at the beauty of the gospel and to offer their varying perspectives to one another because it just enriches the beauty of, you know, what God has done for us through the person of his son.

Courtney Doctor (21:32) Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (21:42) That’s so good.

Hunter Beless (21:43) one.

Shannon Popkin (21:43) I’ll stay, yeah, I kind of wanted to talk about that here today. let’s come back to that here in just a second. And tell me though about the occasion then for this book. Let’s just talk about this letter. What’s going on behind the scenes as Paul writes a letter to Titus and he’s giving him, you know, he’s given him this work to do on the island of Crete.

it sounds like I already told you to do this. So is the purpose that Paul wants other people to know about these instructions? Because these are some pretty big instructions he’s going to appoint and dismiss leaders. is this a letter that is just for Titus?

Is it going to be circulated? what’s kind of going on with this letter?

Courtney Doctor (22:27) Mm-hmm.

Well, I love how in the very beginning you said that this episode is going to be a little bit different because you normally talk about narrative. And I wanted to say, this is narrative. This is so situated in the narrative of redemption and so clearly situated at this really key moment in the story of redemption. So what we what we know is that this whole era, Paul’s letters,

Shannon Popkin (22:40) Okay.

Hunter Beless (22:41) Mmm.

Mmm.

Courtney Doctor (22:56) to the churches and especially to Timothy and Titus are the birth of the church, right? That is what is happening here. This is, I call it the second greatest baton pass. The first greatest baton pass was when Jesus left it with his disciples and he had spent three years training them in what this gospel was. And then he’s like, and you’re gonna take it to the ends of the earth. And so that’s like this first great baton pass. And we know that it happened. But this second great baton pass, we see it in second Timothy two.

When Paul’s talking to Timothy and Timothy and Titus, he says such similar things too. But then he says, and what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, entrust this, this precious gospel message to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. And I’ve said before that that’s four generations that are being represented. So there’s Paul, there’s Timothy entrusting it to faithful men who are entrusting it to others.

And if a generation is about 25 years, then you and I are standing in like the 79th and 80th generation of this faithful and trusting message, right? It’s come down to us. And so the entire book of Titus is situated so clearly at this key moment in redemptive history, which is the establishment of the church. And so that is what Paul is saying to Titus is I’m gonna leave you in Crete.

Hunter Beless (24:12) Mm-hmm.

Courtney Doctor (24:17) And what I want you to do is I want you to set right the things that are undone. And Hunter, you can talk about this because you really did a lot of good work in the text there. I think you did. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Hunter Beless (24:25) is kind of in our introduction, just talking about their relationship, right? And so,

most likely through joint missionary efforts in Crete that Paul and Titus were working together. And at some point, we don’t know exactly when, Paul left the island and then Titus remained there to make sure that the Cretan church was built upon the gospel of Jesus Christ. And so, that’s really what we see in this letter, right? That Titus is to set the church

in order Titus 1 5 this is why I left you in Crete so that you might put what remained into order and appoint elders in every town that’s kind of how the letter starts out.

Courtney Doctor (25:02) that putting right or that setting into order is like setting a broken bone. It’s making sure that it’s going to grow in a healthy way. And so what he wanted, what Paul was telling Titus to do is in order to have sound churches, you need sound leaders who preach sound doctrine and that will lead to sound living. And so it’s this whole, you know,

Hunter Beless (25:03) So.

Yes.

Amen.

Courtney Doctor (25:27) order of these things have to be done. And then all of us, the result of that is sound living, which is godliness.

Hunter Beless (25:30) Amen.

Courtney Doctor (25:34) and good works, right? That’s what Titus talks about both of those, godliness and good works. And so it’s just this beautiful charge to Titus on the importance of establishing it in a sound way, setting it right.

Hunter Beless (25:34) Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

that is so beautiful Courtney. And every time I hear you talk about that, I literally get tears in my eyes. And I want to tag on to that because Shannon asked us, know, was it, who’s it written to and who’s it written for? And it is written to Titus, his true son in the faith.

Courtney Doctor (26:02) Mm-hmm.

Hunter Beless (26:08) and it’s also to the church. And then at the very, very end of the letter, we also see him say, grace be with all of you. And so there’s just this implicit kind of understanding that this isn’t just written to one person. This is also meant to be read.

Shannon Popkin (26:14) Let art…

Courtney Doctor (26:16) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (26:20) Mm-hmm.

Hunter Beless (26:25) before the entire church and really you see that fleshed out throughout the book kind of as he expands through these concentric circles, right? So he’s talking to Titus and he’s talking about leadership in the church and then he’s talking about life together as a church and then he’s talking about how do we live together as a church in the culture? And so it’s meant for not only Titus’s instruction but for the instruction of the church in Crete and for us today. And there’s so much that we have to learn from this letter for sure.

Shannon Popkin (26:48) Hmm.

Mm, that’s so good. I think there’s a word in there that is the word that we use for orthopedic, right, in that verse where he’s saying to set something straight, right, set it in order. so when an orthopedic surgeon takes a broken bone and puts it in order, like this is a little bit painful, but very necessary. And so we’re talking about the body of Christ here, and things are not in order. There’s something that’s

Hunter Beless (27:00) Set it in order. Yeah.

Courtney Doctor (27:00) Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Hunter Beless (27:13) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (27:19) out of order, just by the command to do so. There’s something implied here. Things are not right in Crete. And then Paul uses this quote that’s a little bit, He quotes saying, Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, and lazy gluttons. Somebody said this and he’s not wrong, basically, Paul is saying.

Hunter Beless (27:38) I’m sorry.

Shannon Popkin (27:39) So, I mean, this sounds a little bit, you your subtitle is displaying the gospel of grace and this doesn’t sound so gracious, you know, Paul’s coming out of Paul’s mouth. What’s going on? Is he being super harsh and judgy

Hunter Beless (27:47) Ha

Courtney Doctor (27:55) Well, no, I think he’s being, I think he’s being a mama bear. Like he is protecting the church from false teachers. And so even that idea of like where I think grace does not mean nice, right? Grace is undeserved favor. And it’s remembering that what people need more than anything.

Hunter Beless (28:12) Hmm

Courtney Doctor (28:17) is the true gospel and so Paul is saying like the false gospel is going to and he says it in his letter it’s going to damage entire households like it is going to hurt you if the gospel is false if you are hearing something that is not true and it is going to hurt your family and so he is coming out strong because he is defensive for the people of God to be protected from false teachers

Hunter Beless (28:17) Mm. Amen.

Uh-huh.

Courtney Doctor (28:43) And so, yeah, this quoting of this poet who had lived over 600 years prior to this, I mean, it’s kind of startling, but I think it’s supposed to be startling

Hunter Beless (28:54) Uh-huh.

Because he wanted the false teachers to be restored. He wanted them to be sound in the faith. He wanted them to know the gospel, to believe the gospel, to teach the gospel, to live the gospel. So was ultimately like you talked about, Shannon, with the resetting of a bone. It’s for their good. So his harshness, even of its own, is kind of a form of grace, right? And we feel that in our lives. I even just recently…

Courtney Doctor (28:56) and the.

Yes.

Hunter Beless (29:20) This has nothing to do with me necessarily false teaching, but it has to do with me having like wrong beliefs. And Courtney said, I’m going to offer a corrective. And I just loved that. I’m like, thank you so much for people in our lives who are willing to speak truth, even when it’s hard, right? It’s, it’s a grace to be able to receive that or to be able to hear that.

Shannon Popkin (29:45) It is, it’s challenging though. I think when like this place, this Crete, I mean, they’re known to be this type of people. And if I were gonna pick the best place for this second most important baton toss, or what did you call it? Baton pass, you know? I don’t think I would pick a place where everybody…

Hunter Beless (29:56) Right.

Courtney Doctor (30:04) Yeah, the time pass, yeah.

Hunter Beless (30:05) Hahaha!

Shannon Popkin (30:10) everybody’s known as being evil, lazy, and like lazy gluttons and dishonesty. I think this is really interesting that this is the context. I mean, maybe the whole world was this way at that point. You couldn’t find, the Bible belt of the, you know, the ancient world. I just, wonder if there were things that had become normative in their culture.

right?

Courtney Doctor (30:32) I think the idea that Crete was a really difficult place is obviously true. But I also think there is a mercy and a grace in that, that it is so much more evident. It’s sometimes harder in the Bible Belt areas to see because the reality is I think we’re all.

lazy, evil beasts, glutton and liars. I mean, that is the reality. And so if it’s a more, if it’s more of a cultural norm, we can see it and kind of confront it in a, in a easier way. Don’t you think?

Hunter Beless (30:58) Uh-huh.

Yeah.

Yeah, it’s almost like that idea where, you know, when you have a diamond, right, that you want to really examine. If you go to the jewelry store, they’re going to put it on a black backdrop, you know? And it’s almost like the culture was like that black backdrop. And then we see in Titus 3 where Paul is instructing Titus and the church in Crete really to act in such a countercultural way to set that gospel on display. So it’s going to pop.

Courtney Doctor (31:18) Mm-hmm. that’s good. Mm-hmm.

Hunter Beless (31:37) Right? Like it’s going to look different when in a culture that’s full of liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons, the Christian community is submitting to rulers and authorities, obeying, being ready for every good work, slandering no one, avoiding fighting, being kind, always showing gentleness to all people, not just one another, but to everyone in the culture around them. So this is why part of the reason we said, you know,

the subtitle of the book is gonna be displaying the gospel of grace. This is a means by which the Lord uses the everyday occurrences in their lives to set the gospel on display. So I think it’s like a black background. It just makes the gospel pop.

Shannon Popkin (32:17) Yeah. So on the one sense, you’ve got these evil deceiving, you know, this is the culture, this is the black backdrop, you know, the black velvet But then on the other hand, he mentions these Judaizers, like these super like almost religious piety people who are elevating. Maybe it’s, you know, what we see throughout the New Testament is circumcision, it’s religious holidays, it’s purity laws. Right. And so you’ve kind of got both of these in the same church.

So, how is that going to undermine the beauty of the gospel also?

Hunter Beless (32:50) Yeah

Courtney Doctor (32:51) Yeah, anytime it’s Jesus plus something, you know, that we say our salvation is Jesus plus good works or plus, you know, the circumcision or observing certain holidays. And we think of all the marks of righteousness that we can put into place today that we think make us not only a Christian, but a better Christian, right? So, you know, true Christians, real Christians, pick an educational choice for your child and put that in, you know, real Christians.

Hunter Beless (33:15) Right.

Courtney Doctor (33:18) use public school, real Christians, homeschool, real, I mean, it doesn’t matter. It’s a mark of righteousness, real Christians, you know, right. OK, not to get touchy here, make sourdough.

Hunter Beless (33:20) Right.

Eat organic.

Courtney Doctor (33:37) Just messing with you. makes incredible sourdough and I want her to keep using keep doing it. She makes these sourdough cinnamon rolls that are unreal. But yeah, we have so many, know marks of righteousness real Christians use social media responsibly real Christians. Don’t use social media I mean just put it in there. It’s like it’s real Christians

Shannon Popkin (33:40) I would love a slice today, Hunter.

Hunter Beless (33:55) Yeah.

Courtney Doctor (33:58) don’t limit the number of children they have. Real Christians live in the city, real Christians. I mean, we can, I remember for a time there was real Christians don’t have epidurals. And I’m like, what in the world is that? What are we doing? So anyway, the marks of righteousness. Yes, yes, yes. Anyway, just all these things that we put in there, which really then gets to something that we see in Titus,

Hunter Beless (34:00) Yes.

Shannon Popkin (34:09) man, I am thankful I can be a Christian and have it the door.

Courtney Doctor (34:25) which are these tiers of importance in theology. And there’s a few different ways to say it. We can say there are primary issues, secondary issues, tertiary issues. I think it was Jen Wilkin that said the essentials, the convictions, and the preferences. And I think that’s actually more helpful because it’s a little bit easier to understand. And so the essentials are things that if we do not believe those, we are outside of orthodoxy.

Hunter Beless (34:42) Mmm, that is…

Courtney Doctor (34:53) So that’s going to be things like, you know, the dual nature of Jesus, fully God, fully man. It’s going to be the virgin birth. It’s going to be the Trinity. It’s going to be Christ alone through faith alone by grace alone. These are essentials of our faith. Those are not the only ones. There are more, but those are the things that if we do not believe them and these are worth dying for, these are the things that if our faith, if we had to renounce one of these or

Hunter Beless (35:15) Mm-hmm.

Courtney Doctor (35:23) lose our life, we would have to choose lose our life. So these are foundational. Convictions are things that we see in scripture that we hold very dearly. They’re worth heavy debates over. So credo or pedo baptism, know, do we baptize infants or not baptize infants? The role of women in the church, it is worth talking about, but true believers can hold different

Hunter Beless (35:35) Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Courtney Doctor (35:52) convictions. When we are we are united on the essentials, we extend the right hand of fellowship. And then preferences are just these tertiary issues that let’s throw out a controversial one. do Christians drink alcohol? Do how do Christians vote? How do Christians

Hunter Beless (36:04) You already did.

Courtney Doctor (36:11) educate their children. You’re right. Yeah. So those are all preferences. Do they have epidurals? Exactly. And though great discuss those. Those are so far from the essentials. But I think what we’re seeing in our culture is this reversal that we are where we’re called to divide over the essentials. If somebody disagrees with us over an essential, we are to distance ourselves and not offer the right hand of fellowship. But people aren’t even talking about the essentials. They are dividing over preferences. So

Hunter Beless (36:13) Exactly, yeah.

Shannon Popkin (36:15) Do they have epidurals? Right? Yeah.

Hunter Beless (36:17) HA HA

Right. Ugh.

Right. Ugh.

Yep.

Shannon Popkin (36:40) Yeah.

Courtney Doctor (36:41) So that’s what Paul’s doing here is he’s saying, I will come at you over the essentials, but let’s be united over convictions and preferences.

Shannon Popkin (36:47) Mm.

love

I remember Jen Wilkins, I don’t know if that’s what you’re referring to that her talk, at TGC Women’s Conference. I think it was like fight good fights or something like that. And she was talking about how to the fundamentalist, everything is that first order issue. And then to the progressive nothing.

Courtney Doctor (37:00) Hmm.

Shannon Popkin (37:09) is a first order issue and both of those are a problem. know,

so we’ve got two ditches, right? And Paul is responding to both of these in

And where was it like you mentioned before that there were things that, know, generationally Hunter was bringing like, I don’t think people my age would see it that way. Was there any of in part of the study?

Hunter Beless (37:33) I think it’s interesting what different generations hold dear. And we see that with like Courtney, I feel like your generation, a lot of the women held certain portions specifically of Titus, like particularly dear to justify their lifestyle choices. As opposed to, again, what we’re wanting to encourage women to do is to know the contents of the gospel.

Courtney Doctor (37:50) Mm-hmm.

Hunter Beless (38:03) understand the contents of the gospel, believe the contents of the gospel, and live the contents of the gospel. And so we see people, elevating, like in Titus 2 specifically, we have seen the portion of the text that’s directed at women in verses 3 through 5 used to focus so heavily, chapter 2, verses 3 through 5 to focus so heavily on the way in which

Shannon Popkin (38:24) Chapter two?

Courtney Doctor (38:26) Mm-hmm.

Hunter Beless (38:33) Paul is describing the women are to live out the beauty of the gospel. But this is not an exhaustive list. Courtney and I have discussed this many times. Like, I think a lot of women in my generation are going to have a knee-jerk reaction to that particular text.

Courtney Doctor (38:43) Mm-hmm.

Hunter Beless (38:53) and it’s the implications of the gospel, right, in this particular context are kind of, they’re emphasized over the beauty of sound doctrine and at the heart of sound doctrine is the gospel itself. So that’s what we really want to encourage women

to see is that Paul is encouraging Titus and the church and Crete and the women in those churches to really get a good grasp on things that are consistent with sound teaching, AKA the beauty and the centrality of the gospel in their lives. And what does it look like for us to hold that dear, to teach what is good? By the way, what is good? Well, only God alone is good. And his good word is gonna help us understand

what it looks like to hold fast to the gospel and then to live out of that in whatever context he’s called us to. So it doesn’t necessarily mean, it may mean that for you to love the husbands and children. You might also be reading that as a single person who is employed in the workforce. And

you also like are to hold fast to the beauty of the gospel and to live that out right where the Lord has you. What would you add to that Courtney? How would you round that out?

Shannon Popkin (40:09) It so does.

Courtney Doctor (40:12) No,

The only thing I would say is that it doesn’t leave a single woman or a woman in the workplace or It’s kind of what we started with. The discipleship is life on life, but it’s also all of life. And so this list is not exhaustive. It is culturally contextualized into what Paul needed to tell Titus to have the older women teach the younger women in Crete. And it is a good list. I would use that list when

Hunter Beless (40:38) Absolutely.

Courtney Doctor (40:39) When I am discipling somebody and the topics of marriage or parenting come up, we’re gonna talk about this. And that’s how I want to teach them what is good in that context. But the list is not exhaustive. So it doesn’t mean that if somebody is gonna be talking about a Titus II discipleship, it doesn’t mean that somebody who is either not asking for help in those areas or those areas don’t apply to her, she can’t be discipled by somebody because it’s going to be how does…

Hunter Beless (40:55) You can only stay in that contact.

Shannon Popkin (41:06) yeah, yeah.

Courtney Doctor (41:08) teaching what is good, the gospel is good. How does the gospel impact all of these different areas?

Hunter Beless (41:12) Amen.

Shannon Popkin (41:13) Yes,

Hunter Beless (41:14) That’s exactly what I wanted to say.

Shannon Popkin (41:14) amen. When I read this book, I think it was yesterday, I was looking at how many lists there are. In a book that’s all about the gospel, I found that interesting, right? There’s so many lists of behaviors and yet it’s all wrapped in the gospel. So I hope that women will get this book. I hope they’ll do it with their Bible study groups. I hope they’ll dive in and talk about what does it look like, you know, to

Hunter Beless (41:32) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (41:43) hold fast to the tenets of the gospel and live like it’s true. So let’s just close though with How can we live like it’s true that we are saved by grace?

Hunter Beless (41:54) Well, we have to know the contents of the gospel. And we love this gospel kind of explanation that Paul offers us in Titus 3.

three through seven. In fact, that’s a chunk of scripture that we would really encourage all of the listeners to commit to memory and to rehearse that good news of the gospel over and over and over. so that I can live like I’ve really been saved by the gospel.

Shannon Popkin (42:19) Give me,

yeah, give me one way that you’ve lived this truth in the last 24 hours, Hunter, that you are saved by grace.

Hunter Beless (42:26) in the last 24 hours.

Well, you know, it’s actually Valentine’s Day, the day that we are recording. you know, there’s this temptation as a mother to for young children to feel like I need to, you know, make Valentine’s Day this special event. for all of these things, you know, to have.

a great gift and to explain to them who St. Valentine is and all of this different stuff. And so just to remember and remind myself, hey, that I actually am not saved by my performance on Valentine’s Day. This sounds so silly, but this is the way I have to walk myself through it. I am saved by the perfect performance of God’s Son when he

displayed His love for us on the cross. So I’m going to read just a little bit of the passage here because I love the way that Paul words it. When the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit. So I’m not saved by any work of my own, any perfect parenting practice.

any perfect explanation of a holiday or perfect representation of my love for my children, but I am in fact saved by the love that God has extended to me through the person of his son Jesus. So that’s one way that I remind myself when I’m tempted to try and find my righteousness in things outside of Christ or when I’m adhering to some kind of weird form of Jesus plus something theology. What about you guys?

Shannon Popkin (44:05) Amen.

Mm-hmm.

Courtney Doctor (44:13) Yeah, I think that that idea even this morning, I was just reminding myself preparing for this podcast and, you know, just feeling like I don’t have anything to offer. I don’t have anything to say. And then reminding myself that it’s God’s faithfulness. He’s the one that he loves his church. He loves his people. If you’re listening to this podcast, he loves you more than the three of us ever good. And that he is going to. He’s going to use ordinary means like a podcast.

Hunter Beless (44:24) Mmm.

Shannon Popkin (44:28) Mm-hmm.

Hunter Beless (44:29) Amen.

Mm-hmm.

Courtney Doctor (44:42) to remind his people that he loves them.

We’ve talked so many times Hunter about this, but this letter literally begins with grace and ends with grace. And everything happens in the context of that, happens in between grace appearing and then grace appearing again. And so we live in that place of completely surrounded by the grace of God. And that is good news.

Hunter Beless (44:58) Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (45:12) Amen. I haven’t even bought my husband a Valentine card yet. The righteousness of Christ, right? The righteousness of Christ in my life.

Courtney Doctor (45:16) Me either, me either. But there was one by the

coffee pot for me. So that makes me look like a winner winner chicken dinner. I get that grace, reminding myself of it.

Hunter Beless (45:24) Aww, that is sweet. Look at that grace.

Shannon Popkin (45:25) That was sweet of him.

This has been

such a gift and Courtney, when you said you didn’t have anything to offer, I felt like, my goodness, we received so much from both of you today. I’m so thankful. So appreciate you both so much.

Hunter Beless (45:38) So good. So good.

Courtney Doctor (45:42) Thanks Shannon.

Hunter Beless (45:43) Thank you, Shannon, for having us. We are so grateful.