Shannon Popkin (00:01) Well, Hope and Christine, welcome back to Live Like It’s True. You guys just make me laugh. I don’t know why, but just being with you, we’ve already had a little time to laugh about, well, let me just say right off the bat, what is it? Halakai? Your book on Halakai is coming. they are an.

Christine Gordon (00:05) Thank you.

Hope Blanton (00:06) We’re excited to be here. Love it.

Right, yes.

Christine Gordon (00:20) Right.

Shannon Popkin (00:27) both authors, they co-authored together. Let me give a little bit more specifics on your bio. Chris is the theologian, Hope is the therapist. So we’ve got an upcoming book from the theologian and the therapist. So it’s a great way to help us remember you. But Chris, you have a master’s degree from Covenant Seminary in Missouri. So that’s why you’re the theologian, you’re also a wife and a mom.

Hope Blanton (00:42) That’s right.

Shannon Popkin (00:54) deeply invested in Bible study and Hope, is a social worker with her degree from Temple University and

but Hope has a private practice in San Antonio. She’s a social worker, and we’re just so blessed to have both of you back. You’ve been here several times now, right?

Hope Blanton (01:14) I think this might be number three, right Chris?

Shannon Popkin (01:16) Is it?

Christine Gordon (01:16) I

think that’s right. think it’s three. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (01:17) Yeah, yeah, we talked about one of my favorite conversations and one that people have returned to over and over was the story of the woman, the bleeding woman, you know, who reached out to Jesus. And then we talked also about Sarah and, you know, that Genesis 18 story of Sarah in the tent. And it’s one of my favorite stories. So you guys, man, I, you know, we’ve gotten to have some really great conversations about God’s word.

and I just love having you back. So, okay, I was thinking about, I don’t know what this says about me, but I am very easily annoyed by things that are like, think if I had to drill down and tell you what annoys me, it’s repetitive things. It’s like the thing that happens over and over and over. I don’t know if you can relate to that, but here’s my deal. We’re all dog people, right? Hope you too, right?

Hope Blanton (01:45) Love it.

Thank you.

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Yes.

Christine Gordon (02:14) Yes.

Hope Blanton (02:14) yeah, big time.

Shannon Popkin (02:15) Okay, we’re

Christine Gordon (02:16) Yes.

Shannon Popkin (02:16) all dog people. Well, I have two shitsies and my husband, when he gets home, when I am with my dogs, I’m talking with them. I’m like, hi buddy. I just picked them up from the groomer. I’m like, you look so cute. buddy. You know, so good. Giving them hugs and stuff. My husband gets home and he doesn’t say anything to them. He doesn’t talk to them. I know it’s weird. He gets on the floor and he just picks up the ball and he throws it down the steps and you hear it clunk, clunk, clunk and then, you know, they’re coming clunk, clunk, clunk.

Hope Blanton (02:24) Yeah.

Good.

You did.

Shannon Popkin (02:43) You know,

Christine Gordon (02:44) Yes.

Shannon Popkin (02:45) did I get the sound effect right? And it just annoys me to know and I don’t I don’t know why it’s just the sound of the ball It’s like this repetitive thing. It’s like I know here it is. Here comes he’s just gotten home It’s coming and it’s just like I have to go in a different room. I can I cannot handle it What does that say about me counselor? Hope? I don’t know

Hope Blanton (03:04) I

was going to say, let’s analyze. What do we have going on here? I’m like, let’s get this. Yeah, exactly. Let’s get her some headphones, right? is what I was thinking.

Christine Gordon (03:08) Okay, Shannon, that’s next time. That’s

right, that’s right, we can do that.

Shannon Popkin (03:13) No,

I do. feel like I might. Maybe I’m on the spectrum somewhere because I feel like headphones would do me. Yes, headphones would do me some good in life. But I wondered if there are there any other things that annoy you guys? Is there am I alone in this?

Hope Blanton (03:19) the sensory voice.

Mmm, I it.

Christine Gordon (03:31) Of course. It’s not that. I was

Hope Blanton (03:32) girl, how long do we have? we getting we?

Christine Gordon (03:34) gonna say, we got another 40 minutes. My number one, and I know this is so, I don’t know why, when people do not use their turn signals, I’m like, how am I supposed to drive? I don’t know where you’re going. You’re not talking to me. Do you want me to just sit here and stare into your eyeballs? Like, I don’t understand. You have a tool here. Why are you not using it? I don’t understand. No.

Shannon Popkin (03:35) You

Hope Blanton (03:47) you

Shannon Popkin (03:47) Ha

You have a tool. How about you, Hope?

Hope Blanton (03:53) Yes. Yeah. That’s right.

I think the same thing for me. my gosh. I don’t know what it is about crumbs in the bed. Just like rain any anything I just I get it out, get it out. And then I have to like sweep it and then I sweep it again. And I don’t even we don’t even eat in our bed. I’m not sure where all these things we do have dogs are coming from. But I’m just like, that sends me I just I hate it. It’s one of my big pet peeves. Yep.

Shannon Popkin (04:00) ⁓ mm, get it out.

Christine Gordon (04:11) Hahaha

Shannon Popkin (04:12) Yes, it would be the dogs.

Yeah, yeah, yep, yep.

So, well, I think we’re gonna have something in common then with the guy in this story that we’re gonna hear about. He’s not a very compassionate, very kind person. He’s easily annoyed and Jesus is gonna tell a story about him. So this is the story of the persistent widow found in Luke chapter 18. And I have to say, you guys have written a number of Bible studies, including twofold on Luke. And are all of the studies getting

uh you know the square updated look or i don’t know what

Christine Gordon (04:50) Mmm.

Hope Blanton (04:53) They are over

time. are, but yes, you’re correct that we have written about Luke. have it to where we broke it down into three parts where it’s really long and slow. And then we have one where it’s just a 10 a week one, the servant King, but we talk about this story in our study, Chris. I’m not sure if it’s in the servant King too, but it’s for sure. ⁓ in our Luke part two, three, the part three.

Christine Gordon (05:07) Mm-hmm. It’s in three. It’s in number three. Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (05:13) Okay, so you’ve

Christine Gordon (05:13) Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (05:14) got a three part Luke study. I love that.

Christine Gordon (05:17) Yeah, so if you want to

like slow way down, which we’ve had a few churches who I kind of want to cheer them on. I’m like, they are invested. You do like three full semesters on the gospel of Luke or you can do it in 10 weeks.

Hope Blanton (05:22) Yeah, my church just did that. Yep.

Shannon Popkin (05:24) Yup.

I it’s

worth it. I’m a slow learner, but also I prefer that. I prefer to really take my time and dig into scripture. so, and I guess we failed to say that Halakai is going to be a new study on Haggai and Malakai, which is coming out in July. So.

Hope Blanton (05:33) Thank you.

Yeah.

Christine Gordon (05:47) Hahaha

Hope Blanton (05:48) Yes.

Christine Gordon (05:51) That’s right.

Hope Blanton (05:51) All right. That’s

right. Yes.

Shannon Popkin (05:54) So excited

about that. But yeah, you guys need to check out all of the At His Feet Bible Study Series. Hope and Chris are such great writers. They combine their skills as theologian and therapist. And so they really have a really unique blend in getting us into the Word. But let’s get into this passage. So who wants to read Luke 18, one through eight for us? OK.

Christine Gordon (06:17) Yeah, I can read it. And

he told them a parable to the effect that they ought always to pray and not lose heart. He said, in a certain city, there was a judge who neither feared God nor respected man. And there was a widow in that city who kept coming to him and saying, give me justice against my adversary.

For a while he refused, but afterward he said to himself, though I neither fear God nor respect man, yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will give her justice so that she will not beat me down by her continual coming. And the Lord said, hear what the unrighteous judge says, and will not God give justice to his elect who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them? I tell you, he will give justice to them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?

Shannon Popkin (07:05) Okay, great. I love this parable because we know exactly what we’re supposed to get out of it. Like Jesus tells us, he gives us an intro and an outro. And this story is about persistent prayer, right? It’s about coming, but it’s also about a judge. It’s like sometimes I don’t think we think of God as the judge of the whole world, right? So what is it, what difference does it make to come to God as our judge? What do you guys think?

Christine Gordon (07:27) Hmm.

Wait, can I back up just one second, Chyenne, before we even get there? I was thinking about how this, you read this parable in the context, it’s like Jesus is talking about praying while we wait, because right before in 17 is talking about like coming back. so like how do we pray as we wait for him to return? So like then if you think about a judge, like the judge who’s coming back, you know what I mean? To like do his thing.

Shannon Popkin (07:37) Mm-hmm, yeah.

Mmm.

Hope Blanton (07:56) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (07:57) that’s good.

Hmm? Mmhmm?

Christine Gordon (08:05) that just frames it in a certain way. I mean like this is authority, this is who we are answering to now but we will answer to then. All those things together I think.

Shannon Popkin (08:08) Yeah.

Hope Blanton (08:08) Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (08:16) Yeah, yeah. And

I think ⁓ keeping the timeline in mind is helpful too, because so often we want to come to God as our judge right now in the here and now. Like we want it all put right. And I do think that God moves in that way sometimes, but I don’t think we’re going to fully realize justice until the other part of the timeline, you know? And that’s what Jesus is talking about when he returns. That’s the end of the story.

Christine Gordon (08:40) Yeah.

Hope Blanton (08:45) yeah, I think you’re right in the sense of like this waiting for justice and how Jesus is gonna put that right 100 % at the end. Kind of like we talk about how we’ll have healing in this life, but it’s rare that we’ll have 100 % healing on this side of glory, you know? And so it’s kind of like that same concept, thinking about that with justice.

Shannon Popkin (08:57) you

Yeah, well, and so as a counselor, you probably encounter a lot of people who long for justice and.

Hope Blanton (09:12) Yes, we

have this conversation a lot. Yep.

Shannon Popkin (09:15) Yeah, how do you help them approach the timeline of waiting?

Hope Blanton (09:20) You know, we,

we literally say, I say a lot to them what you just said, you know, I think that’s why I jumped in so much was like, yes, it’s so familiar to me of like this. We will sit in here. We, even had this conversation today with the client, you know, about, about justice for a certain situation and how do we sit in that tension and that waiting. And so they were kind of like, well, then I think, you know, some people just want to then not hope for justice at all. That’s what they want to do to wait as opposed to holding the tension of.

Shannon Popkin (09:44) Mm.

Hope Blanton (09:48) I’m gonna pray for justice even if I don’t get it. And then I’m gonna wait for God as opposed to like, I’m just not gonna want it anymore. So I don’t have to feel this tension. I’m gonna still ask for it, but I’m gonna also live, go ahead and live my life while it’s not happening. Does that make sense? So it’s like this waiting.

Shannon Popkin (09:57) Mmm.

So yeah, there would be,

so the two options would be resignation. I’m just gonna stop asking, because it’s too hard to know that I’m gonna have to wait. Or the persistence, right? And both of them have to live with the tension of the timeline, right? There is a tension of a timeline here. yeah, so, all right. But as you look at this story where Jesus is wanting us to wait with,

Hope Blanton (10:09) Right.

Christine Gordon (10:11) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Hope Blanton (10:17) Right.

That’s right.

Christine Gordon (10:25) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (10:33) faith, what’s surprising? What’s the surprise of the story? What makes it a story? What turns it into something that, know, Jesus doesn’t just give us a boring whatever, he gives us a story. So what makes this a good story?

Christine Gordon (10:46) Yeah. I think thinking about the story that what does Jesus want from us? I think made me think that feels surprising. And especially if you think in the world of, you know, the God, the small G gods in the world and what they want, they want to be served. want, you know, it’s like you have to please them. And what God wants is our dependence and our weakness, you know?

And those two things are like things that everyone can give him. We’re all weak. We all need him, our need, that’s what he wants. ⁓ that’s not, I don’t think what we expect, especially in the sort of like puritanical and no shade on the Puritans. I love the Puritans, but this sort of like Western, we,

get it right, you know, I think we flip that sometimes. What does he really want from us?

Shannon Popkin (11:40) Yeah. Yeah.

Well,

we live in such an ⁓ empowered, a can-do culture. We have so much autonomy. We have money. We have our rights. We have our freedoms. And so that’s our bent as Americans, at least. I know we have people listening from other countries as well. But that’s what they think of us as Americans. And it is true, but we do not like to…

Christine Gordon (11:58) Yes.

Yeah.

Hope Blanton (12:07) you

Shannon Popkin (12:13) just settle in with like, I know I’m not gonna be able to fix this. That is uncomfortable for all of us, but particularly Americans and the fact that that’s what God wants from us is to just sit there in our need and bring it like, like what you’re saying is he wants me to come to him over and over and over in the tension of the timeline, bring my need, bring my need, bring my need. That I know of somebody right now that I’m more

Christine Gordon (12:17) Mm-mm.

Great.

Shannon Popkin (12:43) you know, just kind of praying through the tension of the timeline. This person would like things to fall into place much more quickly than they are. And they want to do something. They want to do, give me what to do. Give me the list. And they just said it last night. They were like, I just wish God would give me the list and I could do the list and then I could get what I want. You know, we want the transaction, right?

Christine Gordon (12:55) Of course!

Yes. I

was gonna say, but that’s not, he’s not a transactional God. It’s not how he works. Yeah. And the man that’s, yeah, man, that’s what we want. I, yes, for sure.

Shannon Popkin (13:12) Nope, it is not.

it’s come to him.

But okay, so you’re saying this is interesting that what Jesus wants from us is that we would continue to come. But I think it’s also interesting, you know, as he kind of does this juxtaposition between these two, you know, the unjust judge who’s so inconsiderate, no compassion, he doesn’t care about anybody or anything. And he’s contrasting that judge with our judge.

God and I was just thinking about how like Jesus really likes the boldness. ⁓ He likes this woman who will just she she didn’t care either. She ain’t going to keep showing. She she is going to beat you down. I think the fact that Jesus like he likes that is great, you know, because that is me. I will beat you down.

Christine Gordon (13:53) Mm-hmm.

Hope Blanton (13:53) Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Christine Gordon (14:00) ⁓ Yeah. That’s right. ⁓

Hope Blanton (14:05) That’s right.

Christine Gordon (14:11) Yeah.

Hahaha!

Shannon Popkin (14:17) And the fact that Jesus likes that about me is like, ⁓ because that is something I can do, right? It’s good news. I can just come in my need, right? Yeah.

Christine Gordon (14:22) It’s good news. That’s right. That’s right.

Hope Blanton (14:24) That is, it is.

Christine Gordon (14:27) Yes,

Hope Blanton (14:28) Yeah, it reminds me.

Christine Gordon (14:28) that’s right.

Hope Blanton (14:29) It reminds me so much. That’s what surprises me so much about this passage is her persistence, right? Like that’s Jesus is like he didn’t give her justice because he was godly. He didn’t give her justice because that he gave her justice because she was persistent. He was annoyed. It reminds me so much of Luke 11, which is so parallel to this when it’s when Jesus is teaching them how to pray and he’s like come this way and he tells him a parable that’s kind of similar to this where someone is knocking at the door at midnight for bread.

Christine Gordon (14:50) Yeah.

Hope Blanton (14:57) for bread, excuse me, and they get up and give it to him and it says not because of this, not because of that, but because of their impudence or their shameless begging. And so to me, it’s like these are so similar. It’s like this, except this one is about justice, but it’s the same spirit of like this relentless. It’s not because of the giver, the giver, the judge, or the person that’s getting the door knocked on at midnight and, you know, in Luke 11.

Christine Gordon (15:11) Yeah.

Hope Blanton (15:21) It’s not about them being good people doing the right thing. It’s because of the just the coming over and over again or like Chris said that constant dependence. But in this situation, it’s constantly asking God for justice, just that persistence. And so yes, it’s like he wants us to come, you know, just over and over again and to your friend who was saying, just give me the list of things. It’s so interesting. The things here is the persistent asking for justice. Like that’s the thing.

Christine Gordon (15:47) Yeah.

Hope Blanton (15:49) You know, that’s the thing is that consistent that that begging that praying that asking and so it’s just so interesting to me how these stories are similar. ⁓ One is about justice, you know, and but again, the same like almost spirit of how that person is supposed to come to God asking for that, you know.

Shannon Popkin (15:57) Yeah.

Yeah, I think

is the word chutzpah, the Hebrew word, I think it’s like chutzpah. It’s like, you’ve got that, you know, like I’m gonna, I’ve got this boldness. And it also reminds me of the Gentile woman who was like, she cut, like I did an episode on that story with someone else and ⁓ it was like, she was being ignored and she just kept like, and then Jesus kind of says, well, I’ve come for the lost sheep of Israel.

Christine Gordon (16:10) Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Shannon Popkin (16:36) not the Gentiles, she’s like, but even the dogs get crumbs from the table. And she’s like saying, I’ll be a dog, ⁓ but I am here for it and I’m gonna keep. And Jesus was amazed by her faith because of her persistence. Again, he likes it. He likes it when we are persistent. But I was kind of thinking about the contrast between the widow’s relationship with the judge.

Christine Gordon (16:53) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (17:02) and our relationship with God. Like that’s really what Jesus is contrasting here. And she has no relationship with the judge. All she has is the persistence. But I think, you know, when I think of coming to God over and over and being a pest, it’s not a pesky thing because I’m his child, you know? It kind of reminds me of like how my kids, or like let’s say there’s some,

Christine Gordon (17:25) Right.

Shannon Popkin (17:30) I know. Did you guys see in the inauguration where JD Vance’s kids were there? And they were like, I don’t know if you saw any videos. I just thought it was adorable. his kids are just, they’re like climbing on his lap, like, you know, playing, you know, like, come on, daddy, look at me. Like they don’t care that he’s going to be the vice president. They’re just there. They’re just kids. And they’re going to keep, you know, poking and pestering. Like that’s.

Christine Gordon (17:41) Uh-uh.

Hmm.

Yeah, right, there’s dad. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (17:54) I think that’s like, that’s our relationship with our God. You know, there might be boundaries for other people where they can’t go into God with this personal kind of, you know, asking where, you know, if you’re JD Vance’s kid, nobody else can say, Hey, can you pick me up from soccer practice? But his kid can, you know, that’d be terribly disrespectful to ask, but his kid can ask him because there’s that relationship.

Christine Gordon (17:58) Mm-hmm.

Right. Yeah. Yes.

Shannon Popkin (18:23) What other contrasts do you see that are beautiful in this story?

Hope Blanton (18:24) Mmm.

Christine Gordon (18:29) thinking about that that Jesus does this so much he argues the lesser to the greater you know and um and so many of the stories he gives us and and I was thinking about that the judge had jurisdiction right and authority over a certain number of people and a place in a town and whatever um and a certain number of cases but Jesus has jurisdiction over every living thing so if you that’s the contrast that stands out to me

Shannon Popkin (18:32) Yes.

Yeah.

Christine Gordon (18:57) is like, who actually has the power to give justice? Whose jurisdiction are we actually in? Are we in the judges? Yeah, but we’re always in Jesus’ jurisdiction. And that feels like, ⁓ that’s a really comforting thing to me. And that’s a big contrast.

Hope Blanton (19:04) you

Yeah,

yeah. Yeah, it’s so funny you think that is say that Chris, because I was thinking the same thing about a conversation I had with someone recently about kind of like they needed a favor and they’re calling in a favor and using ⁓ status or whatever relationship in order to get that, which makes sense. Right. And I thought, wow, wouldn’t it be cool if I had that kind of access to get a favor like that? Because that would have been really helpful. And then I and then I felt like God was like, hello, like I had you have access to me.

Shannon Popkin (19:16) Yeah. ⁓

Christine Gordon (19:41) you

Hope Blanton (19:43) Right? I have access. like goes over, you know, we might say people’s authority is here and we’re like, I want access here. And God’s like, no, you’ve got access up here, you know? And so exactly what you’re saying, Chris, it’s like Jesus is, Jesus is the presiding judge over, over that judge. It’s like that judge isn’t to be feared. It’s Jesus is who to be feared and asked for just kind of like calling in a favor. No, we get to go call Jesus for the favor. It’s not like just some man made whatever. And that’s.

Christine Gordon (19:51) Mm-hmm

Yeah.

Hope Blanton (20:12) really comforting, think, especially in issues of justice.

Christine Gordon (20:16) Yes.

Shannon Popkin (20:16) Yeah, yeah, I think what’s hard

is when we don’t see that justice being realized, even though our judge is over all the earth. And so then the responding question is, don’t you care? Don’t you see? Do you see I’m dealing with this injustice, God? Like, I’m your daughter. I have this full access, and I am asking, and I don’t see you doing anything. How do we help? How do we deal with that ourselves, or how do we help others?

Christine Gordon (20:25) Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm

I mean, I think that’s a place where what you’re talking about earlier about the timeline and I would call it, it’s the same thought, but I would call that the already not yet of like, that’s where we sit and that the fact that we see, we see bits of it now, but the bits that we see are confirmation of the fullness of

justice which will happen. So I think like when I think about justice the clearest thing I think is I have an adopted special needs autistic black child who is a drug baby and like the number of places where I have hit walls trying to advocate for him like his school district wouldn’t put him in a special needs school which like

If you meet him for five minutes, it’s so obvious what he needs. And I think, did our other school district just look at him and think, well, this is a Black child and there are all these stats about how they get put in different places and don’t get diagnosed, blah, blah, blah, blah, all that. And I just think like, someday there will be justice for him, like absolute justice. And I long for that, you know? And I think ⁓ the fact that I am

Shannon Popkin (21:42) ⁓ yeah.

Yeah.

Christine Gordon (21:56) I am sure that it is coming, helps me now, when I don’t get what I know should happen. I know it’s right and I know God hears me and I think, I don’t know what it’s gonna look like, but I know it’s gonna feel really good when it comes.

Shannon Popkin (21:59) Yeah.

Yes, yes. Well, this series

we’re talking about, it’s our judgey series, And most often, like we don’t want to be judged. We don’t want judgment. We avoid that like the plague, please don’t judge me. But this we do want. We want to hear from this judge when we feel, when we are struggling with injustice, something is wrong on behalf of our kids, on behalf of ourselves.

you know, something in our churches, something isn’t right. We want to know, and really, what are we asking for? I wrote that question somewhere ⁓ in this text. Like when we ⁓ are coming to Him over and over and over, what is it that we actually want? some of the things that we want cannot be realized. Even…

in the here and now. It’s not even possible. I was looking at that word adversary. The woman has an adversary and who’s our adversary? It’s not always a person. Some people are crying out to God for injustice because they have an adversary they can’t see. Our enemy is called an adversary. Maybe their child isn’t dealing with, like Chris, I…

Hope Blanton (23:14) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (23:29) have so much compassion for you dealing with these special needs and these, you said five minutes and you understand what he needs. Well, there are other things that we can’t advocate for because it’s the enemy has infiltrated our child’s mind, right? And they’re believing a lie about themselves or they’re believing a lie about God or about, you know, a lie in the world. Maybe they’re believing lies about

Christine Gordon (23:47) Yeah, right.

Shannon Popkin (23:58) who God made them to be, like their gender, they’re struggling with that same sex attraction, whatever, the enemy has infiltrated and that’s the adversary. And so like, how do we get justice with that adversary? How do we get back what is being taken? How do we fight over what has been lost? It feels like too much. It feels like, where do I point my?

Christine Gordon (24:10) Right.

Shannon Popkin (24:22) You know, but I can’t. Like, I don’t even know where to go with this, but I can go to God over and over and over and whatever has been taken and has been lost in this world, justice will be served. And I don’t know, like you said, I don’t know what that will look like, but I know it will feel really good, right? To have that enemy put where he belongs, that adversary, along with the real life.

Christine Gordon (24:24) Ha ha!

Yeah.

That’s right.

Yeah, that’s right. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (24:49) flesh and blood adversaries that we face in this life.

Christine Gordon (24:52) Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Hope Blanton (24:53) Yeah.

Yeah. It makes me think of, you know, when the adversary here, we were thinking of a person, right? In this text. And then you kind of talking, Shannon, there about the adversary, which is the evil one, enemy, the devil coming to kill, still destroy. It’s like there’s, there’s lowercase A’s adversaries and then there’s capital A, right? And what’s interesting is we already have, you know, a book in the Bible, Revelation, where it tells the story of

Shannon Popkin (25:11) Yes. Yeah.

Christine Gordon (25:11) Yeah.

Hope Blanton (25:21) the justice that’s coming for the big capital A adversary. It’s like we get to read that and go, okay, one day you are gonna come and do this thing to this adversary. And kind of like Chris was saying, the lesser to the greater. So it’s almost like the opposite revelation is like the greater to the lesser. It’s like we can take that story of that capital A adversary and point it down into these smaller places. And knowing that these people that we’re experiencing adversity with

Shannon Popkin (25:25) Yes.

Yeah.

Christine Gordon (25:45) Hmm.

Hope Blanton (25:49) and injustice in this life and what they’re doing, we know that he’s behind the scenes pulling strings, moving these people to do these things, right? And so they’re like a puppet in a way. mean, they obviously have all the responsibility as far as their ownership over that. But I think it’s just helpful to think about that of like, it’s not like, okay, well, I’m not gonna see justice in this life and I’m never gonna see justice. It’s like, I’ve already been given a text in the Bible that tells me about the justice against the biggest.

Shannon Popkin (26:17) Yes.

Hope Blanton (26:18) of all who is orchestrating all adversaries underneath him that I’m experiencing. know, it’s just sometimes there is a way to rest in that. ⁓ And then also kind of like Chris was saying, it’s like you look to these little moments of justice, even if they’re not the biggest moment of justice. That’s what I usually do with clients who are struggling with this, where they are really asking God for justice about something horrific that has been done to them.

Shannon Popkin (26:23) Yeah.

Christine Gordon (26:23) Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Hope Blanton (26:48) whether that’s sexual abuse, assault, trafficking, you name it. I’ve heard those stories in here and they want justice now. And I’m like begging God, why aren’t you giving them justice now? But sometimes they’re able to see little justices even if they can’t see the justice that they’re even wanting now. know, like maybe that person going to jail or whatever, but they still, we try to like, you know, adjust our goggles down to like, well, let’s just see if we can see even little justices.

because then it gives us hope for the big justice that we know is coming, you know, when the new heavens and new earth, but also just hope for even justice in this life. And what I found is when we do that, when we talk about the coming justice and the little justices, they somehow are able to long suffer in the interim of not getting that justice that they want. You know, it’s like gives them enough. It’s like the breadcrumb, you know, to kind of help them long suffer through not getting it today.

Shannon Popkin (27:33) Okay, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. And like having that expectancy, I think that justice will be served. I think that honors God. I think that’s really kind of what Jesus is getting at here when he says, you know, ought to always pray and not lose heart. The losing heart would be like, give up resignation. this is, I’ve tried and this is.

Christine Gordon (28:07) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (28:11) This whole world is just, I’m out, know, like just no hope. So there’s some sort of expectancy in our hope, like in not losing hope. There’s some, like I am appealing to a judge that is nothing like this judge Jesus talked about. I’m appealing to a judge, he don’t let anything go. He’s going to track down every minute piece of justice until it is all put right.

Christine Gordon (28:15) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Hope Blanton (28:32) That’s right.

Christine Gordon (28:33) Hmm.

Shannon Popkin (28:40) and don’t misjudge this judge in the here and now just because you haven’t seen what will happen in the there and then, right? Like wait until the there and then until you assess fully who this judge is right now, have a sense of expectancy. But just let’s just hold off before, you know, we have some sort of final judgment about our judge. And I know I’m flipping that around like,

Christine Gordon (28:50) Yeah.

Hope Blanton (29:02) That’s right.

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (29:09) That’s not really what this is talking about. ⁓ I think, yeah, this story is meant to help us see our judge clearly, you know, and it’s that lesser to the greater. This is a terrible judge. And some of us have experienced terrible judges in this world who just don’t care. They have all the power. They don’t care what anybody thinks. Like it says, they don’t fear God. They don’t care about his law. They don’t fear man. They don’t care what anybody’s going to think of them because they have the power and they’re just not worried about it. And so we’ve all encountered judges like that.

Christine Gordon (29:16) Yeah.

Hope Blanton (29:20) That’s right.

Christine Gordon (29:24) Yes, yeah.

Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (29:39) in the here and now, but our judge is nothing like that. He is so, you know, that’s what the story is putting in. It’s the lesser to the greater. Even that judge will respond to persistence. How much more will our good judge respond, you know, to this persistence of his elect? I thought that was interesting too. Do you guys have any thoughts about Jesus using the word elect here? Is that what it was in your translation, verse seven?

Christine Gordon (29:40) Mm-hmm. Mm.

Hope Blanton (29:43) Mm-hmm.

Christine Gordon (29:53) Yeah.

Hope Blanton (30:08) Yes, it was, yeah.

Christine Gordon (30:09) ⁓

yeah, justice to his elect to cry to him day and night.

When I read things like that, I mean, this is a whole other conversation, right? We can talk about Hope and I are right in the middle of this in Malachi. Jacob, I’ve loved. Esau, I’ve hated. It’s hard. But I think when I read stuff like that, I’m like, what a privilege. That’s what it makes me think. What a privilege that God’s going to even listen to you. There’s no reason. There’s no reason he should listen to me. There’s nothing in me that makes me like hearing worthy, you know? So why would he?

Shannon Popkin (30:21) Okay. huh, yeah.

Hope Blanton (30:21) Thank

Shannon Popkin (30:32) Yeah.

Exactly.

Yeah. Yeah.

Christine Gordon (30:44) Yeah, that’s what it makes me think. Mm hmm. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (30:44) treat me like a child when I was the enemy, you know? I was on the adversary’s

Hope Blanton (30:48) That’s right.

Shannon Popkin (30:49) team and why would he treat me like a child? I’m his elect.” But I looked it up and the only other time Jesus uses that word elect to describe believers is when he’s in the Olivet Discourse. So he’s talking about end times. And so here again, there’s a connection with end times and

Hope Blanton (30:53) That’s right.

Christine Gordon (30:53) Yes.

Shannon Popkin (31:11) That’s where it will be for the sake of the elect that justice will be served. He’s already chosen. It’s grace upon grace upon grace, the story that we’re part of. ⁓ But anything else surprising or anything else you wanted to notice in this story?

Christine Gordon (31:24) Mm-hmm.

Hope Blanton (31:24) Hmm.

⁓

Well, just like you were talking, Shannon, about the judge and how this is showing the good, true judge, you know, and I keep talking about Luke 11, but there, Jesus, that’s when he says, who, you know, if their child asks for bread, gives him a stone or asks for fish, gives him a scorpion, how much more, you know, I’m probably misquoting it, but it’s kind of that same, he’s kind of saying the same thing here. Like, this is how this judge acts, this is how I act and you have access to me, right? Because you’re the elect, you’re the beloved,

And so it’s, again, it’s just a beautiful picture of, you have access to something so much greater in me and who I am and how I’m care for you as the judge. So, yeah.

Christine Gordon (32:11) Hmm.

Shannon Popkin (32:11) Yeah.

And we didn’t really talk about widows. widows are like, we did talk about coming to him with our need. Widows in this culture had no rights. didn’t, you they needed someone to advocate for them. Like your son, Chris, needs you to advocate for him. ⁓ And it’s different than our culture where we have a lot more rights, a lot more authority. But.

Christine Gordon (32:19) Mm-hmm.

Yep.

Shannon Popkin (32:37) I mean, I even think of a widow that I know who, her husband died during COVID and she is still grieving his loss because he was super healthy and they had all these plans and within two weeks he was gone. know, she just, think she just wonders if it could have.

Hope Blanton (32:48) Hmm.

Christine Gordon (32:56) Mmm.

Shannon Popkin (33:05) if there could have been a different outcome if things were handled differently. And I know there are a lot of different ideas about COVID, but here I see this woman who was just helpless in a situation that was so far beyond anything that she had any control over and still dealing with the injustice. So if that’s you, and that’s me in some ways, there are things that…

Christine Gordon (33:07) Hmm. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (33:30) I don’t see how they’re ever going to be put right. Cause somebody else doesn’t see the problem. They don’t see that they’ve wronged me. They don’t care that they’ve wronged me. Right. And some of those things we’re still grieving over these losses for years. I hope, you know, you probably hear that on a daily basis. Like, and I think just knowing my friend and knowing how she still wants to talk about it, she still wants to talk about the losses. She still wants to remember her husband.

You know, it’s now been four years. Of course she does. Of course she does. And it’s no problem for us to hear that again. And that’s how, when I turn that back to this good father judge, you know, it’s no problem for him to hear it again and again. In fact, he likes it. He appreciates it. You know, I just, that is the thing I’m reveling in in this story. Go ahead.

Hope Blanton (34:12) in.

Christine Gordon (34:17) Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah,

I think I’ve been thinking as you’ve been that how he likes it. I think a lot of times when I ask people like what have you been talking to Jesus about or what you know, there are all these ⁓ understandable because they are maybe thinking about God like their parent was or like a friend is or like a husband is or whatever like don’t want to bother him or like he has enough to do or like

I’m sure, you know, he probably is getting sick of me talking about this. You know what mean? And this, it’s like, this is, this is the answer to that is like, actually he’s not. And here’s where we see what it’s like, you know? And I think too, talking about the elect and what he does for children, he could have just given us like a system of doctrine. Like you’re the elect, you’re the this, you’re the that, but he doesn’t just do that. He, he fills it out with story and color and nuance of like, well, what does that mean? Well, it means.

you have these terrible judges, we’re on the righteous judge. It’s like he gives us all these pictures so that we can experience, what is that? That’s such a condescension for him and a humility that he would give us like our kind of words to understand who he is. He didn’t have to do that. I think that’s another surprising thing about that. And I mean, honestly, all through the Bible that he would take the time to do that. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (35:30) Yes. Yeah.

Yes. Yeah.

Yeah, but he wants us to

understand. It reminds me of my dad was on staff at a church and ⁓ we went to that church at the time and my kids felt like they owned the place. They just wandered the, that were the church halls. And ⁓ my dad was in a board meeting with the whole staff, like behind closed doors, like no accessibility, but my son was about five and he was wandering around and he opened that door and he goes,

Bye, Papa.

Christine Gordon (36:16) Yeah

Shannon Popkin (36:19) Like, feels no shame, you know, he’s not bothered by the fact that they’re all sitting there having a meeting. I, of course, am dying a thousand deaths, you know, mortified that he, I heard about it later. hi, Papa. You know, I just love that. Like, that’s our God, and he, and my dad loves that story. Like, he loved that. He loved that his grandson just saw him. I was like, hi, you know, that’s how God feels. He wants us to just keep knocking, hi, God.

Christine Gordon (36:25) Yep.

Hope Blanton (36:26) So totally.

Christine Gordon (36:35) Yes.

Hope Blanton (36:42) Mm-hmm.

Christine Gordon (36:42) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (36:47) I’m here again. I’m here to ask you again and again and again. I know I have full access. You’re my daddy. You know, you’re my papa and I can come anytime. So what false narratives does the story correct for us?

Hope Blanton (36:53) Yeah.

Christine Gordon (36:56) Yeah.

Hope Blanton (36:58) Yeah.

for me, I was thinking about just kind of that false narrative that there’s no creator and that having God, you know, in, my life wouldn’t make anything better. And really this is such a picture of like, what Chris was saying earlier, there’s a bigger judge than the judge. It’s even in this story and that, that, that’s the creator. That’s the father judge. As you were saying, he’s also the creator judge and how it does matter that you’re connected to that person. It does make a difference and make a difference in how your life.

goes and and so it’s it does make it better and we see that the story Jesus is then saying I will make it better. I literally am going to be the one that’s going to make it better and your connection to me is is crucial in that and so it’s just to me it pushes against that false narrative that there there isn’t a creator it doesn’t matter what we do anyway and by the way he wouldn’t help me anyway or help my life.

Shannon Popkin (37:53) Yeah,

yeah, on both sides, like whether you are, ⁓ you know, sinning against this creator, it makes a difference. Like, no, there is a creator judge. And if you’ve been sinned against by another creature, no, there is a creator judge. And so in both instances, it matters. Yeah. And it’s a lie that nobody’s keeping track. There will be no accounting. That is all the lie of the enemy.

Hope Blanton (38:07) That’s right.

Okay.

Christine Gordon (38:19) That’s right.

Shannon Popkin (38:21) Like, and it started in the garden of Eden, you know, did God really say, and he won’t, there won’t be any, you you will not surely die, you know, just get doing away with all accountability, all of what, all of God’s words and that those are lies, right? And so holding on. And so any other false narratives? It’s fine if.

Hope Blanton (38:22) Yeah.

That’s right.

Christine Gordon (38:35) Yes.

I was gonna say he’s forgotten about me and he doesn’t care, which is what it feels like when it’s not being fixed now. And also just, I was thinking both of those things, what Hope said and that what it leads to then in my heart and mind is, well, I better do something myself then. I’m gonna take this in my own hands. Especially if it’s against my kids, I’m like, you tell me where they live and I will take care of this. I mean, that’s my natural bent is like.

Shannon Popkin (38:49) Yeah.

Yep. Yeah.

Yes.

Hope Blanton (39:11) Yes.

Shannon Popkin (39:12) And I have.

Christine Gordon (39:14) I’m not big, but I’m feisty, so.

Hope Blanton (39:15) What’s that

kid’s mom’s phone number? Am I right? Yes.

Christine Gordon (39:19) Exactly. You give me his address.

Shannon Popkin (39:22) ⁓

it’s so true. mean, I’m embarrassed to tell you the story, but I was there. My son was being like picked on. He was in a lacrosse like group where there were bigger kids playing with little kids. I don’t know. It some like some off season training. And so there he was being picked on and he was, you know, they were being rough with him and I’m walking in from the parking lot and I thought we were walking in with the kid who’d been picking on him.

Christine Gordon (39:34) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (39:51) because he was bigger. thought, this is the adversary, this is the enemy. And so I said something like, hey, I heard that you’ve been giving Kate a hard time. And Kate’s like, mom, no, he is my.

Christine Gordon (39:51) ⁓

Yeah.

Hope Blanton (40:09) my gosh. my gosh. my gosh.

Shannon Popkin (40:09) ⁓ sorry about that. know, like just. But I was like there

Christine Gordon (40:14) Shannon’s

Shannon Popkin (40:14) for it. I was coming in hot. I’m like, I am bigger than you, know, but I might only be five foot.

Hope Blanton (40:21) It’s so funny. It’s so funny. I have a story where when my kid was in middle school, she was in seventh grade. We were driving home from school and I saw a kid getting chased and kind of started to get beat up by this like mob of kids and he was little. I told my daughter, was like, you know, I’m going to say something. She’s like, mom, don’t. I’m like, no, no, no. I roll the window down and I then I’m telling everybody this. I totally lied.

Shannon Popkin (40:34) Hello.

Hope Blanton (40:47) and said, hey, I’m the social worker that works for the school over there, which I didn’t, but I used to years ago work at schools. And I was like, you need to stop. And they’re all like, no, no, first I just said, hey, you need to stop, y’all need to go home. And they, they turned up at this one really big kid goes, well, who, who the F are you or something like that? And I said, I’m the social worker at the school over there. And I’m, you know what, I’m calling the principal right now. And I picked up my phone and I was like, ⁓ uh-huh, yep, yes, this kid looks like, and they all ran. And my daughter is now.

Shannon Popkin (41:13) good, okay. ⁓

Hope Blanton (41:15) is now on the floor of board of our baby and I turned the drive home and I said that’s justice like you have in these moments because I’m not gonna let this kid you know and like I’m imaging God in that in a little tiny tiny way think how much more this just judge is like no uh-uh we are not doing this yes

Christine Gordon (41:23) Yeah

Shannon Popkin (41:31) Yeah, Yes. ⁓

Christine Gordon (41:32) That’s right.

And how much more does he care, right? You

Shannon Popkin (41:38) Right,

yes.

Christine Gordon (41:39) don’t know this kid and you’re like this twisted motivation human. I mean, I love you, but it’s true about all of us. And you’re caring, right? Exactly. Yeah, how much more? How much more? That’s right.

Hope Blanton (41:42) Exactly. That’s right.

Shannon Popkin (41:44) Right. Yes. Yes. Impersonating social workers.

Hope Blanton (41:50) lying that I was a social worker, lying that I’m calling the school. But yeah, exactly. How much greater is the Lord and his justice, his pursuit

Shannon Popkin (41:55) Yeah.

Hope Blanton (42:01) of justice on our behalf?

Shannon Popkin (42:02) it’s so true. Yeah. I think sometimes we shy away from justice, because Jesus was so meek and mild and He said, the greatest is the servant. servants aren’t really those rising up for justice. They’re just leaning low to do their humble work. But no, our God is a God of justice. And I think He probably loved that moment. ⁓ I think He was…

Christine Gordon (42:04) That’s right.

Mmm.

Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (42:30) cheering you on. I don’t know if he loved me like bullying the bully but the non bully.

Hope Blanton (42:31) in.

Christine Gordon (42:35) hahahaha

Hope Blanton (42:38) But the bully probably saw that and was like,

Shannon Popkin (42:41) Yeah, I don’t know. don’t know. But any any instances where you have lived like the story is true?

Christine Gordon (42:41) ⁓ that’s right. That’s right.

Hope Blanton (42:52) I think it’s…

Christine Gordon (42:53) Yeah, I

feel like I always think about Ezra, my youngest, and that, I mean, if you go back and back and back, you know, like, he came into the world in an unjust place, you know? Like, there were things that happened with his mom and his dad in ways they were sinned against that got them to a place.

that meant he wasn’t cared for in the womb. They didn’t even know about him. I mean, it’s like all these things that happened against him before he ever took a breath. And I think, yeah, in the new earth, I’m gonna sit with him and it’s all gonna be made right. And he’s gonna be healed. like those things that happened to him that he had no say over are gonna be made right. And in ways that I can’t yet imagine. that, I mean, I think about that a lot because I know

Shannon Popkin (43:19) stacked against him. Right.

Christine Gordon (43:42) Like this kid is going to have, he’s going to have a hard go of it and every, all of us around him until he dies. It’s how it’s going to be. And so that’s a real hope for me is that justice is coming. Justice, healing, lots of things are coming for him. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (43:56) Well,

he said, in the age to come, like that’s his elect cry out to him day and night, will he delay long over them? I tell you, he will give them justice, give justice to them speedily when the son of man comes. So it’s that day that the son of man comes in the age to come, having our mind on that as we pray in the here and now, right? I think there’s something that shifts when you aren’t just praying that it will happen for Ezra.

in this lifetime. You know, it’s there’s something like maybe it just helps us to put into perspective the justice that we crave because the justice you want like what who do you again, who’s the adversary? How do you how do you even track them down? It’s too big. It’s complex. Like there is not one single adversary. It’s a whole system that’s broken and so much stacked against one little kid. But if you can shift your focus to

Christine Gordon (44:49) Right. Yeah.

Hope Blanton (44:49) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (44:56) everything being put right for him and Ezra having nothing, ⁓ no holds barred. Like he can just be free to be who he was always made to be with nothing stacked against him. mean that glory be, that’ll be a great day. That’ll be something to anticipate. And I think the judge is anticipating that as well, you know? Yeah. How about you hope ⁓ any…

Christine Gordon (45:07) Right.

That’s right.

Yeah.

Hope Blanton (45:23) Yeah, I think for me, ⁓ it’s justice in different areas of my life that have been confusing or where people have done wrong things and what’s happening with that. But also I think I thought about this a lot as a therapist and just really holding that tension of praying for whatever God wants to push against and bring justice to now and the ultimate justice. And so for me,

I think that’s where I try to live like it’s true or lean into that is through conversations, especially with clients who are just really, really struggling.

Shannon Popkin (45:58) Yeah, yeah, absolutely. ⁓ It’s not as though we don’t want justice in the here and now, right? So living like it’s true isn’t just about justice in the there and then. It’s also about like, I am aligned with a judge who is committed to justice. so, yeah, appealing to him over and over. All right, well, thank you girls. This has been fabulous as always. And let’s live like it’s true that we serve the judge of the world.

Christine Gordon (46:04) Yeah.

Hope Blanton (46:07) That’s right.

Right. Yeah.

Christine Gordon (46:26) Mm-hmm. ⁓

Shannon Popkin (46:28) who we can have access to and he likes it when we come back to him over and over. So good.

Hope Blanton (46:28) Hmm.

Christine Gordon (46:33) He likes it.