Shannon Popkin (00:01) Leith Haggard, welcome back to Live Like It’s True.

Leith Hoggard (00:04) Thank

you so much, Shannon. What a pleasure.

Shannon Popkin (00:08) You and I met when I was speaking in Arkansas. You opened your home. I got to stay with you for a couple days. You’re such a gracious host. Have a beautiful home. And we just talked Bible, like all day.

Leith Hoggard (00:21) favorite thing.

Shannon Popkin (00:23) It is our favorite thing. And I just found in you like that camaraderie of opening the word together And you were sharing about how you often, you and Randy often open your home either for couples or individuals and just as kind of like a lay person counselor. How did you get started doing that?

Leith Hoggard (00:43) You know, for years and years we’ve taught on Wednesday night couples and then we are also active in the marriage ministry at Central Baptist and we do marriage conferences. We co-lead marriage conferences with one of the pastors and his wives at our church.

two or three or four times a year. And through that, through teaching also in our home, God has just brought opportunities for counseling. And through our Wednesday night class, often with married couples, counseling in marriage, the marriage ministry. But also he has given me in recent years an opportunity for mentoring.

unmarried women, which has been such a joy. So really, I never really know what God is going to bring, but it’s exciting to just be a part of that.

Shannon Popkin (01:41) Well, you’re on my Judgy prayer team right now as I’m writing this book and I just so appreciate your prayer and support. So when you think of marriage, I know you and Randy are very, very invested in marriage. You love marriage. You’re so want for couples to thrive in their marriages. So when you think about marriage, how does judgment overlap with marriage?

Leith Hoggard (02:07) you

Shannon Popkin (02:08) Where does it show up like?

that you weren’t expecting when you, I have a son getting married this summer. how do, know, talk to him and his new bride. how are they gonna encounter judgment?

Leith Hoggard (02:19) You know, I’m so glad you asked me that. This is such an interesting thing because as we come together in marriage, it’s oneness, not sameness, right? But oftentimes we go in with the expectation of sameness and so wrong and right, right? And so…

since I’m not wrong, he must be because I’m, not wrong, right? this is the way you do it, right? And so most of those things are not moral issues. They’re, they’re issues of preference, right? And then like

Shannon Popkin (02:55) For example.

Leith Hoggard (02:57) the things we love about someone are often the things that turn into irritants in marriage. Like, you know, I love it that he kids around all the time and laughs all the time. And then I’m like,

stop kidding around, right? Be serious

Shannon Popkin (03:12) Right.

Leith Hoggard (03:13) or, you know, the things that kind of we allow to become irritants. And what we’ve seen in marriage, what we’ve seen in our own marriage, what we’ve seen in other people’s marriages is we allow those small things to attach themselves to, well, he hurt my feelings. And he eats so loud. I mean, you eat so loud or you breathe so loud or you whatever it was then

Shannon Popkin (03:37) Right? Right?

Leith Hoggard (03:38) because

we have been wounded and then We’re not careful in our marriages. if we don’t identify those things, if we don’t deliberately seek to walk in reconciliation quickly, we can become disgusted.

with our husband or our wife and that quickly can turn into contempt.

Shannon Popkin (04:03) So I think, you know, in the examples that you gave, I think it’s good to differentiate between where sometimes we judge between preferences. Like you’re talking same oneness, not sameness. And that’s every marriage. We are not the same. we’re creating this oneness out of two separate people. And there’s so much opportunity to say you’re doing it wrong. I remember standing in my kitchen.

probably two or three years into marriage and saying, like, I was always cheerful and carefree before I met you. You are the problem. Like, I literally thought he was the problem. And it was probably over some crumbs on the counter, or he was, you know, cutting the little food wrong you know, it was little things that are not right and wrong. And yet I was standing in judgment over him and then quickly turns to, you know, contempt.

I’m not respecting him, I’m not treating him with value because he’s doing it wrong. He’s not doing it my way. there are times when he truly is, if there is a line between right and wrong, whenever we’re talking about judgment, we’re talking about right and wrong. And so sometimes our spouse is on the wrong side of a particular thing. Maybe he is being inconsiderate,

he’s not picking up his socks or whatever. But we can so easily, I think, take those little offenses and turn them into these big, like, I mean, think divorces happen over socks on the floor, right? Because you know, I have this contempt for you, right?

Leith Hoggard (05:38) Right, right,

because we attach, we have a value system that we come into, not the moral value, but a value system of priority and right and wrong. you know, I was raised that you are not to be late.

Shannon Popkin (05:56) Mm.

Leith Hoggard (05:56) is it’s a disregard for other people’s time. It’s for character,

Shannon Popkin (05:59) That’s a good one.

Leith Hoggard (06:00) you know, like we attach a whole lot of things to that. They’re being like, right. So I come into marriage as like, it’s not a really good example for me because Randy’s not late either. But let’s just say that you come into marriage with this ideology that if you’re late, you are a poor character person.

And someone else doesn’t have that same conviction. Like, we were late all the time and we were great people, right? And so there’s conflict, but if we’re

Shannon Popkin (06:33) Yeah, yeah.

Leith Hoggard (06:34) not careful, we’ll judge the person based on this obscure…standard, or laziness, rest was hard for me and taking a nap, I was like, that might be a sin, right? someone else

Shannon Popkin (06:52) Yeah.

Leith Hoggard (06:52) who, it’s just obscure and we have to come to the recognition that oneness is not sameness. And these are preferences, not moral issues.

Shannon Popkin (07:04) Yes, I think sometimes we so quickly tie them to moral issues. And I had two thoughts as you were talking. That sounds like the Pharisees. They made their own lists of right and wrong and then judged other people based on those lists, right? And they went to the minutia. Now, there were parts of those lists that, yes, were rooted in God’s word, but they had so elevated the list and turned it into a way to judge somebody else. And that’s not why God gave them the law.

He did not give them the law so that they might judge each other, right? And stand in superiority. And so that’s the other thing is, you know, like for us, when we got married, I remember, well, and still, this is really hard for me. The home that I came from, if someone was rushing around trying to get ready or do something, or like, let’s say you were hosting, you know, that’s when it usually shows up is I’m trying to host, I’m trying to get the house ready, I’m getting food prepped.

and my husband will be just relaxing on the couch. And that bothers me because I never saw that modeled in my home of origin. If my mom was busy getting the home ready, my dad was helping. And my husband, I guess, I don’t know whether he didn’t see that modeled or whatever, but he feels like, well, this is my day off. I don’t get a day off very often. I work very hard. And I’m not helpful in the kitchen. I’m just going to relax here. And just, mean.

all the pent up judgment in my heart, you are wrong. But what I have failed to realize is I’m the one who’s wrong. And so a helpful standard for me is where’s my verse for that? Where’s my verse for it’s wrong for you to sit on the couch? Because he could very easily find verses about rest and Sabbath and right, those are legitimate.

I guess help one another. We can find our own verses, but I think it’s helpful for me to think through, is this my judgment? am I my ideas about what is right and wrong? Or am I, am I rooting this in what God has to say,

Leith Hoggard (09:16) that is so good, Shannon. I need help and you’re not helping. But then

Shannon Popkin (09:22) Mm-hmm.

Leith Hoggard (09:22) the deeper issue is if you loved me, if you valued me,

you would help me and I wouldn’t have to ask you for your help and so we assign ill will like you are intentionally not helping me and that’s probably not the motive it’s he doesn’t even think to help you like he’s busy he’s got this list of things he’s going to do it’s his day off and and so what is super helpful

is to sit down and say, okay, so I know this is not your intent. but there is something in me that of origin or experience or arrogance, I’m not sure, but when I am rushing around feeling anxious and you’re not helping me, it feels…

like you’re intentionally not helping me. And I know that’s not true, but that’s I’m feeling. And there’s some value in just being vulnerable and talking through that in marriage. But that is not our instinct. Our instinct is to say, this is what you’re doing. I know this is what you’re doing and you are intentionally irritating me. And then we tuck it away in this big suitcase and we carry it with us like the junk drawer.

when we get angry

Shannon Popkin (10:42) Mm-hmm.

Leith Hoggard (10:42) again, we just pull it out and there it is again. We just add to it. And rather

Shannon Popkin (10:46) Yep.

Leith Hoggard (10:47) than acknowledging, this is making me feel this way. And I know I’m probably wrong about this. And when we approach it with the goal of reconciliation, we can work through so many things that literally people will fight to the death over

you know, not getting to buy a Gap shirt. it’s the things we attach to it that really matter. And usually that’s value and love for us as women.

Shannon Popkin (11:16) value

and love and for men, respect.

Leith Hoggard (11:18) and

honor. It is respect and honor. Do not question my integrity. not insinuate that I’m not a good man because I’m not helping you set up for that. You are saying I’m not a good man because I’m not setting the dishes. So it’s this division of love and respect, the thing we need the most,

Shannon Popkin (11:38) Okay.

Leith Hoggard (11:39) but when we don’t talk through it, we only have our own perspective.

Shannon Popkin (11:42) So good. When you were talking earlier about assigning ill will, it reminds me of Simon in The Sinful Woman and how he is looking at her and judging her based on, you know, this is the story of Simon is hosting this dinner party in Luke seven and there’s this woman of ill repute. she’s a notorious sinner and she’s come in and

Jesus is accepting her. She’s come to Jesus’ feet. She’s pouring her perfume. She’s weeping. She’s kissing his feet. And Simon is looking on her with contempt. He has no use for her. He’s completely, he’s put her in another category. She’s that sort. She’s a sinner. And he’s elevated himself based on, like his identity is all of these laws.

He’s disgusted with the way she’s kissing his feet. Why isn’t he saying, get out, get away from me? his identity is wrapped up in these laws and Jesus is accepting her.

Leith Hoggard (12:41) Yes, and I love that you brought that up because that example is so interesting. in the context of that day, we don’t really understand the context of that day because that would be highly inappropriate to go

Shannon Popkin (12:55) Mm-hmm.

Leith Hoggard (12:55) in

Shannon Popkin (12:56) a scandalous moment.

Leith Hoggard (12:57) Yeah,

and when she comes in, it is a scandalous moment and there’s a lot to break down in that scripture, but he saw her as of no value based on, not based on what Christ said, but based on the etiquette of that day. He saw himself and then hurt so much below him. you know, just the other day, this happened to me.

I was in the doctor’s office, I had to go for MRI for my foot. But I’m in the waiting room and this couple comes in with this gentleman in a wheelchair, much older gentleman, they’re his caregivers and they sit right across from me and they are dirty, very uncapped. They are loud, really loud, you know, and in the waiting room every, there’s this etiquette, there’s this waiting room etiquette and they were breaking all the laws.

they seem to, in my judgment, ignore the gentleman in a wheelchair. And so I began in my head having this dialogue about their value without really acknowledging it to myself, but just this natural arrogance, right? And immediately, God, the Holy Spirit said to my heart, amago de. And I was just like,

I should be better at this by now. should be better at this by now. And God gave me immediately, it was like the scales fell from my eyes and I saw them with new eyes.

it was this release of contempt, not thinking that they were all great at what they were doing or what they but it was this release of contempt, this recognition of sin, identifying sin, naming it, and repenting of it. And that is where we get our power in that.

Shannon Popkin (14:55) and I think so many of us feel responsible to let other people know they are doing it wrong. Like even in the waiting room, like, and we send these glaring looks or these, I just talked with someone last night who said she was in a waiting room at a doctor’s office and she was talking on the phone and she said there was a television on and there were other people chatting in the room and she didn’t feel like it was wrong for her to be talking with her friend on the phone.

And this man from across the waiting room like mouthed to her, get out. Like that, like get out. And he did it twice and so she’s like, me? And he’s like, yes, get out. And so she left the waiting room and stepped outside and finished her conversation. She’s like, I was so rattled by it, but I came back in the room. Like, so here she’s dealing with the contempt of another person.

He’s just completely emptied her of her value as a human being. He’s not trading her with kindness or respect. And so she came back in and she said that, you know, what she wanted was to glare right back at him. Like, you know, what is your problem, mister? Or defend herself, right? look, there’s other noise going on in this room and this is socially acceptable. Like I know social etiquette but she said,

what came out of her mouth was from the Holy Spirit. She said, sir, I’m so sorry that I disrupted you. And he’s like, well, now we know your whole life story. And so she had another opportunity I think when we feel judged, we are so tempted to judge others. she had another opportunity and she said, again, I’m really sorry I disrupted your day. I mean that.

That is giving value to someone, not based on etiquette social norms. But let’s turn our attention back to, I think it’s one thing when I’m treated poorly in a waiting room or when someone’s loud or they’re dirty or those sorts of things and calling contempt what it is. But I think when I have been so deeply hurt, I’m just putting myself in the position of a woman whose husband has been sleeping with another woman. Or is…

is, you pornography, I think is similar. It’s in the same category of like, he is committing sexual sin, he is not keeping the covenant. And I feel all of this contempt for him.

Leith Hoggard (17:17) Yes.

Shannon Popkin (17:18) I feel like he has done what God agrees with me, you know, I’m gonna like, there may be lines that we’re not sure exactly where God would, you know, we try to put him on our side of the line, but this one we know he is on our side of the line

Leith Hoggard (17:31) that.

Shannon Popkin (17:31) This is evil, this is wrong, we are agreeing with God. We are disgusted with that sin, but we have let it lead all the way over into contempt for the person that we’re married to. calling it contempt, that’s our first step. And I just kind of threw out there identifying, for me that’s helpful to recognize that I have sinned in any way that someone else has sinned, putting myself in the same category of humanity, right?

It’s not as though they are a different sort. We are all humans created with innate value and worth, but we are all fallen humans. We have all sinned. And so how do we deal with this contempt? Like, can we lead our emotions or is it just a visceral response that we have no control over?

Leith Hoggard (18:18) Right, and I think that is such a good point, really well made, in that we know that in Christ Jesus, through the Holy Spirit that indwells us, that we are more than conquerors, and that we have fruit, we have fruit. It may be a seedling, it may be full grown, it could be harvest, right? But we have fruit in our life because of the Holy Spirit. And so when adultery happens to us,

That’s

a whole different level, right? You’ve got the covenant, you’ve got betrayal. There are so many things to consider in that. And so it is disgusting. But what we know about the goodness of God is that what is on the inside always comes out.

And like you were saying, contempt, disgust comes out in our lives through our words, our responses, our nonverbal language, all of those things. And sometimes they can be more painful than the actual words. And so when we have experienced a wrong, like you said, We didn’t commit adultery, right?

And when we talk about judging, I think this is an important point to make. says, do not judge, least you will be judged by the measure that you use, you would measure. Well, it certainly cannot mean that we are not to call sin, sin, because God has told us over and over again that we are to do that, right? But it is the judgment of the heart of the person that we do not know. I think I know,

motive and even a sign ill will but that is the heart of that commandment we cannot judge the value the worth of a person that is like the tree of good and evil that that is not ours that that is God’s and so ours is to

agree with God, walk in obedience with God. So if that has happened to me, then I agree. Yes, this is true and and this is wonderful and they’re going to be a gamut of emotions that I’m to have to work through. contempt, I promise you, would be one for me. So as God convicts me of contempt, I repent before God because my sin is before God.

right? we know when God commands us not to do something it is because it is harmful to us. It is harmful to our relationship with Him, our relationship with other people, the way that it will manifest in our life. And so even though we can justify contempt in our own understanding it is detrimental to us as follows for Christ.

Shannon Popkin (21:11) Yeah, so many people I think who are dealing with anxiety, depression, a whole host of ailments, sicknesses. I think a lot of it at the core is bitterness and contempt for other

Leith Hoggard (21:24) Yes.

Shannon Popkin (21:24) people. And taking into our own hands the judgment, you know? Like we’re holding in our hands the final gavel.

that doesn’t belong in our hands, that belongs in Jesus’s hands. So you’re saying, if I’m dealing with contempt for this other person, I have to determine it is not my place to judge their heart. I’m gonna allow God to judge their heart. And going back to that story with Simon and this sinful woman, she’s breaking all the customs and the social norms here by letting her hair down. mean, this was

scandalous.

But her heart, Jesus saw her heart and that’s, he was accepting her based on her heart. And sometimes we don’t want to leave that to Jesus. We don’t want to leave the judging to Jesus. want to take that gavel in our own hand. Don’t you see Jesus? Like we want Jesus to see it our way. She is wrong and he won’t because his mercy is, like I said, his heart is pent up with mercy. Here is a woman who’s turning. She’s repentant.

And we want that for ourselves as well.

Leith Hoggard (22:34) That’s right.

Shannon Popkin (22:36) We don’t want him to be distant and cold. Like, let’s see if you can prove it with 30 years to make up for those 30 years.

Leith Hoggard (22:44) Right.

Shannon Popkin (22:45) no, she in the moment that she came. It’s like the thief on the cross. He didn’t have a life to live to make up for the wrong that he had done.

Jesus accepts any of us. We want that for ourselves, but do we want that for other people?

Leith Hoggard (23:02) You know, I think

that sometimes we expect it to be easy.

God doesn’t command us to do anything that comes natural. Like if it comes natural to us, there’s no commandment needed, right? And so

Shannon Popkin (23:16) Yeah. Yes, yeah.

Leith Hoggard (23:20) what we see with do not contempt, right? It’s not ours. It’s as if we are an employee and we step into the boss’s job and fire our coworker. You’re fired.

That would be absurd, right? We don’t have

Shannon Popkin (23:40) Right, right.

Leith Hoggard (23:41) the authority to do that. so,

Shannon Popkin (23:43) Right.

Leith Hoggard (23:44) you know, when we look at sin in our life in contempt, we have to know that even when someone has wronged us, truly wronged us, that that is not unknown to God. That our predicament is not unknown to God. And laying that down is really hard. That is a hard thing for us.

And in our culture, in our heart, in our own reasoning, we justify But what

Shannon Popkin (24:13) Mm-hmm.

Leith Hoggard (24:13) happens in that, we become arrogant and we become the judge. And God says, do not judge or you too will be judged. It’s not that we commit the same sin. It’s the sin that we commit in our disobedience. And so we become guilty

Shannon Popkin (24:28) That’s good. Yes.

Leith Hoggard (24:31) of disobedience to God, not in the same sin.

but equally guilty. And so

Shannon Popkin (24:39) Right.

Leith Hoggard (24:39) it is this when we understand that even though sin makes sense to us in our own understanding that God forbids it for our own good that we become guilty before him and it separates us from God. Contempt doesn’t serve us well in our life. It’s close to the Lord. It doesn’t

Shannon Popkin (24:56) No, right.

Leith Hoggard (24:58) sanctify us. It doesn’t bring glory to God. All of these things are

pushers of God, right? Pullers

Shannon Popkin (25:06) Mm-hmm.

Leith Hoggard (25:08) and understanding that, that God never tells us to do anything for our harm. But it’s certainly against our nature. Every single command is against our nature.

Shannon Popkin (25:19) Yeah. Okay, so I’m in the counseling chair at your home. I’ve been to your home. I can just picture it in your lovely living room. And I’ve been struggling with contempt towards someone who’s hurt me deeply. And we’ve agreed that this other person is made in God’s image. It’s not my job to determine their worth. I’ve been sinning with my contempt and that’s harmful for me. God has commanded it for my own good that I not.

that I not show contempt toward them. I’ve determined, yes, this has become part of my identity. I’m responding based on what, you a lot of my fears are wrapped up in my identity. So you’re gonna send me home with an assignment about my contempt. Give me some, I don’t know, some encouragement and some assignments to send me home with.

Leith Hoggard (26:12) First of all, I think that there is great value in saying, know what Shannon, you have been wounded, you have hurt. we always heal from the inside out, just like wounds, I heal from the inside out. And it takes time and there’s scabs that can get knocked off and that you’re vulnerable right now. And in your vulnerability,

we are prone to lean into the things that we justify. We play this reel over and over again, like they hurt me and then we add to it, you know, and then we play it over, we go to bed thinking about it, we wake up thinking about it, and it goes to this bigger understanding of forgiveness.

and that is hard. Forgiveness is not easy God commands us to forgive because we have been forgiven and so forgiveness is done before God. So immediately we go, God I can’t do this like I have been wounded. Number one, I don’t want to forgive. Number two, I don’t, can’t, I’ve tried, I don’t know even how

do that. And so what we do is we just lay it down for the Lord and say, you create forgiveness in my heart? Will you equip me to forgive?

but also acknowledging unforgiveness doesn’t mean that we haven’t been hurt or that our heart doesn’t exist.

And so as we would just talk through that and say, you know, I’m here for you. I am so sorry that that happened. And it is a lot to overcome, but with contempt.

because I love you and I want good for you. And I wouldn’t want you to tell me the same thing. Content is so blinding and the Holy Spirit is the light. a part, just like when I was writing this, I had no idea I was holding content.

It was justifiable in my mind and then God is the the light shiner, you know Search me and try me know And I think in that we can walk with each other and say you know what?

It is true and God will equip you for that. You can’t do it on your own. I can’t do it on my own. It’s so unnatural. We don’t, we won’t even have that capacity, but it’s because of the Holy Spirit that we are made new and it is Christ that Paul says it’s no longer I, but Christ who lives in me.

I can’t do it on my own and

Shannon Popkin (28:43) Hmm.

Leith Hoggard (28:44) I don’t want to do it on my

Shannon Popkin (28:45) Yeah, so starting there, when this contempt is rising again, what do I do in the moment?

Leith Hoggard (28:52) Yes,

well, and I think recognizing it is so important. Just like God, the Holy Spirit in that doctor’s office said to me, Amago Dei. I mean, I was actually writing a lesson on Amago Dei

in the image of God, He created man and woman. And because we are the Emmett Bears,

of God. Judgment is for the creator, not the creator. And we are created.

Shannon Popkin (29:23) Yeah, yep, yep.

Leith Hoggard (29:26) I think contempt is one of those things that we’re blinded by. think anger is super easy to identify. It’s this gut, right? Contempt

Shannon Popkin (29:36) Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Leith Hoggard (29:37) feels a lot like that. And contempt never comes alone. Like, contempt has this posse of like,

anger, resentment, and pride. know, arrogance and pride, they’re always like the sidekicks of these sins. But who has insight into their own arrogance and pride? That’s by its definition, it’s a blinding. And having someone that loves you and that we all need people in our lives that can speak truth to us. And you have done that with me and I love that.

Shannon Popkin (30:11) and you with me.

Leith Hoggard (30:11) to

Shannon Popkin (30:12) Mm-hmm. Yeah, We don’t want to be blind to our contempt, and we’re going to need the Lord’s help opening our eyes and waiting on Him to speak to this other person through His word. That is not to say, I don’t think you’re saying, I can’t point out, like, look, this is wrong and I’m hurt by it, but to stand in for God’s

and sit in his seat and you you’re gonna be judged for this and no, this is not our place. So I was just talking with a friend yesterday who’s dealing with a teenager that she, think, you know, she might agree that she has some contempt for this kid because he’s causing hurt in their family. He’s not doing what he should be doing. And the advice that I gave her, and maybe this would be fitting is, you know what?

let’s be mindful of your facial expressions.

Leith Hoggard (31:05) Yes.

Shannon Popkin (31:07) You know, like let’s be mindful because we can watch our tone, but we forget about what our face is doing. And let’s just play an experiment of retracting any, you know, we’re going to let God deal with this contempt in our hearts, right? But let’s just let’s be mindful of our faces and just play an experiment of how that works with this other person.

because I feel like our contempt, even just a little micro expression on our face, there are people in our lives who are watching for that and just the slightest moment of that, but it’s creating more problems, right? And so it’s creating all these other emotions that you’re talking about, because people are relational and when I do this, you do this and there’s a whole dynamic involved.

let’s just retract any of those looks of disgust or contempt from, like it’s in the eye roll, it’s in the, you know, I just, you can’t hear that if you’re just listening, I just like, you know, this look on my face and let’s just trust the Lord to do his work in this situation because clearly you’ve tried everything you know to do. Let’s wait on him and go ahead.

Leith Hoggard (32:26) I think that

is such great counsel because I have a really good friend who we taught kindergarten together and she said to me one day I was in my class and this little boy a very precocious little boy said Miss April your words sound nice but your face looks mean and I thought

how perceptive and I think that that

Shannon Popkin (32:53) Uh-huh.

Leith Hoggard (32:53) is so true because what’s on the inside will come

Shannon Popkin (32:55) If

I can, yes, what’s inside will come out. That’s what made me think of that when you were talking earlier. Like I have to deal with what’s inside, but I also have to be mindful of what’s coming out. And I don’t wanna like edit my face, right? I do want it to come out from my heart. And yet as we’re growing in these areas, like self-control is managing my face. But if a kindergartener can be perceptive enough to say that your face doesn’t match your kind words.

Leith Hoggard (33:25) mean, that’s

my plan, right? I don’t want have babies,

Shannon Popkin (33:27) Uh-huh.

Leith Hoggard (33:28) but it’s so, I think that’s such good counsel because so many times, you know, as a mom, as a wife, as a counselor, and to be clear, I’m a kindergarten teacher with a master’s degree in literacy and language. I am not a certified counselor. God has

brought that opportunity

Shannon Popkin (33:45) Ha ha ha!

Leith Hoggard (33:47) to.

Shannon Popkin (33:48) Well, and he’s just given you this wisdom to share. I love that.

Leith Hoggard (33:51) I’m so

grateful, but you know as that I have often prayed that police on my face and not to respond just to receive them because When when a fellow believer is walking in sin or has committed a sin? They they know that right and so when I come to you and say Shannon I Did this terrible thing? I’m already vulnerable. I’m already

Fearful of rejection. I’m already defensive ready to give my Argument as to why I’m not as guilty as I may seem or you know, whatever and by receiving me agreeing that first of all You are loved you are You are loved by me and regardless of your choices. I will always love you But because I love you

I will tell you the truth and I will agree with God and that we will walk this together. And again, our love for you is not contingent on your behavior. I love you regardless, but this is not going to work out well for you. going to bring destruction to your life.

Shannon Popkin (35:07) Yeah. Yes, part of love is truth, like truth

Leith Hoggard (35:09) Thank

Shannon Popkin (35:10) and love go together. Yeah, that’s such a good counsel.

Well, Leith Haggard, thank you so much for joining us for the second episode. You have written some beautiful studies that you offer for free. So what’s the name

Leith Hoggard (35:25) It’s called Fitly

Spoken and hopefully you’ll have available.

Shannon Popkin (35:30) Yeah, we’ll make it available. you can actually just download this study on emotions. And one of the chapters is on disgust and contempt. So we hope you’ll pick that up. Thank you for being such a gift to me, to our listeners, and to the church in general.

Leith Hoggard (35:44) Thank you, Shannon.