Shannon Popkin (00:00) Well, we’ve got Ms. Lindsay Schott back here at Live Like It’s True, and she is no stranger to the podcast. Lindsay, I think you’ve been here at equal or more than any other guest we’ve ever had.

Lindsay Schott (00:11) I am so excited. I love it so much. So I’m so lucky. Thank you, Shannon.

Shannon Popkin (00:16) You’re so sweet.

Lindsay is a watercolor artist. She is a Bible teacher. She’s on staff at Stonegate Church in Texas. And Lindsay also is the co-founder of Teach Equip. You guys have probably heard me talk about that before. I’m a coach with Teach Equip. training women to teach the Bible in their own local church settings and Lindsay’s the co-founder of that. So Lindsay, welcome back to Live Like It’s True.

Lindsay Schott (00:40) Thank you. I love Live Like It’s True. So I’m so happy to be here.

Shannon Popkin (00:43) Well, you’ve already been here for one episode in this series. We talked earlier about Noah and the Flood. That was the first chapter in Judgy Girl, this book that I’m struggling to write. It’s always a labor of love. And so now we’re talking about the story of the last chapter. But I kind of wanted to go back to something you said in our conversation about Noah and the Flood. It stuck with me and I’ve really thought a lot about it.

You said that judgment is never, it’s like God doesn’t toggle between judgment and mercy. It’s one movement, judgment and mercy. Can you like, do you remember saying that? And do you, is that like coming from, I don’t know, where did you, where did you first encounter that idea or?

Lindsay Schott (01:32) Probably. mean, I think the first place I saw probably was the Old Testament, which is why even when you’re talking about what’s going to be in the book and the sections you want to go over, I think that’s why I gravitated towards Genesis is because probably what I was picking up on was there was a point when I was reading Genesis and I don’t I don’t know why. I don’t know if it was just reading or there was a commentary. It was just like I saw for I just remember seeing for the first time that when God told Adam and Eve, you’ll eat the fruit and you’ll die. Then I was like, they didn’t die. But them not dying and just being cast out of a garden was an expression of mercy. Well, at the same time, it was like, you can’t be here anymore. And it was just this, they happened at the same time. So then that idea made me go, what other moments is God being gracious and executing judgment all at the same time, which then made me feel like everywhere, that’s happening everywhere. Noah is justice and mercy and all of these moments are justice and mercy. Even when we talk about something really painful and difficult as God telling his people to go in and destroy that nation because that’s your land and they need to leave. That can feel like, are you kidding me? That is awful. It’s also like before God will say their sin is actually not complete and I’m going to let them get to a certain level of sinfulness and then I’m actually executing judgment on their sin.

And so it’s God being like, I’m mercifully giving Israel something they don’t deserve because I’m going to move redemption history through this, but also it’s happening in judgment. And then ultimately I saw that culminating with Jesus, that Jesus crucifixion is justice and mercy happening all in one movement at the same time. So I think for me, it just somehow, it just felt like a moment that was like, this is happening all over the place. This is happening all over the Bible.

They aren’t mutually exclusive. They’re all happening in one. Justice and Mercy are always compatible and the Bible sees them as compatible and they’re one in God, you know.

Shannon Popkin (03:27) Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Well, and I mean, I feel like in all of his justice, there is mercy for his people. Like in all of his judgment, like back at that story of Adam and Eve, I mean, imagine if Hitler was still walking the planet, right? Gaining, you know, like we look back at that and we’re like, how could he have gotten that power? And I’m so glad that his reign ended, right? And

Lindsay Schott (03:52) Mm-hmm.

Right.

Shannon Popkin (04:02) What if all, like think, you know, make a list of all the most horrible people and they were still walking the planet. How much freedom would we have? How much, you know, how much would be left with the most extreme selfishness? And it just keeps compounding and growing. And what if that was happening in us too, right? Not just those bad people, but us bad people too, right? I mean, like no death would be awful. Like we’d be an eternal prisoner.

Lindsay Schott (04:06) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (04:32) And so, I mean, death is almost like an escape from it, but like death isn’t good, you know? That’s not like, that’s the great reward or something, but it’s like, no, I’m gonna show you mercy by locking you out of the Garden of Eden where there’s that tree of life. I’m gonna put an angel here guarding it. And… and I’m gonna make another way. I’m gonna make another way back in, know, another re-entry to that garden, another door, and it’s a door of mercy. It’s like, and mercy, remember, like we’ve talked throughout this series that mercy isn’t, know, grace is different. Grace is getting what we don’t deserve. It’s like receiving something that we didn’t earn or, you know, don’t deserve. Mercy is not getting what we do deserve. and so we do deserve eternal judgment.

Lindsay Schott (05:22) Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (05:27) We’ve all participated in the fall. We’ve all eaten the fruit. We’ve all defied God and made ourselves God. And so we do deserve His judgment. And yet we get His mercy. But I completely agree with you that the cross is the best picture of this one movement of judgment and mercy culminating. And so ⁓ if you back up in the story, there’s this whole trial.

Lindsay Schott (05:27) Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (05:56) I mean, I was just telling you before we hit record, like I basically spent last week studying the trial of Jesus, the betrayal and the trial of Jesus. And it is just like, everybody is saying he’s innocent. Everyone, nobody’s saying he’s guilty. And the only people saying he’s guilty are the ones who are looking at good and calling it evil. Like they have their own evil motives. It’s like they are doing what God said would happen when we eat the fruit. and become blind, right? It’s the fruit of knowledge of good and evil. Only he can sort that out. And so they’re doing that very thing. They’re looking at goodness itself, Jesus himself, and calling him evil and calling it sin. But then it’s the story of God’s judgment, his wrath diverted from, you know, like you just said, he didn’t kill Adam and Eve right away. They didn’t die immediately. The human race continued. so God

God won’t, I think you said last time too, God won’t, ⁓ He won’t not judge you, but He will put His judgment on someone else, right? And that’s, so this is a story of God’s judgment, His wrath diverted from sinners to His son. ⁓ But then it’s also a story of mercy. And I think it’s mostly a story of mercy.

Lindsay Schott (07:18) Yeah.

Yes.

Shannon Popkin (07:23) I just see that coming to the surface as I look at this story. ⁓ And so, okay, one more question for you before we talk about these two robbers, criminals. okay, as I think about judgy people and judgy women in particular, judgy girls, I feel like sometimes we think we are holding the line.

Lindsay Schott (07:41) You

Shannon Popkin (07:46) When we stand in judgment of other people, we’re like, I am the bastion of truth here. God is the one who said this is wrong and they are on the other side of it. They’ve crossed the line, they are wrong and I am holding the line. I am good and right. I am just because I’m holding up God’s judgments as I judge this person. And yet, and honestly, that’s really what the Pharisees are doing here. They are…saying Jesus crossed the line, he’s calling himself God, only they just can’t see. They’re blind. They don’t know the way God knows, right? ⁓ And I think they truly believed that he was from the devil and that it was their job to stand watch and cast, you know, judgment and get him killed. ⁓ But then I wonder, like, have you noticed that in your people around you and yourself? And then

Lindsay Schott (08:27) Yep.

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (08:42) So let me let you answer that too. Do you feel that? Do you see that?

Lindsay Schott (08:47) yeah. I mean, I’m, I live in the state of Texas and one, we’re real good at having our opinions and we don’t care what anyone else thinks. So I mean, just culturally, Western American, then Texan, like there’s a really strong ⁓ vein of if I think something’s right or if I think something’s wrong, I really have no problem being extremely vocal about it. And, dare say even hurtful and, and really unwilling to be unified or tolerant or all those things. So yes, I live among a people of unclean lips and myself included, right? Like I’m in all that. So the air I already breathe, the water I’m in as the fish is a very, if I think it’s right or if I think it’s wrong, I don’t need to explain anything else. That’s just what I think. And I’m to tow this line ⁓ as hard as I can. And then because we’re kind of in the South, there’s a religious flair of that.

Shannon Popkin (09:22) Yeah, yeah.

Lindsay Schott (09:43) There’s a religious flair of ⁓ that’s on our side. That’s the end of the conversation that lacks a distinct flavor of compassion. And ⁓ just like what you said with the Pharisees, I think if we’re reading the Bible and also saying Jesus ⁓ exposed me with this to read the Pharisees even in this and not to just at least a little bit question yourself and at least feel a little bit of fear.

Shannon Popkin (09:45) Like God’s on our side, right?

Lindsay Schott (10:11) that you can think you’re completely right and you are completely wrong. I’ll just go a little bit of, ⁓ Lord, are there things that I think I’m completely right about, but I’m completely wrong? And a really clear, how would you know if you’re completely right or wrong? Just take what Jesus said to the Pharisees. I desire compassion and not sacrifice or not your religious obligation. If your principles,

Shannon Popkin (10:15) Just a little bit of fear.

Lindsay Schott (10:41) that you, the hills you want to die on, completely lack compassion for the people who don’t agree with you, you might be wrong. You might be wrong. Not that the truth is wrong, you might be wrong in how you’re loyal to it. ⁓ Because Jesus is merciful to the sinning of which we have to acknowledge we are the chief of that, right? Like, ⁓ and I think there’s like, there’s somehow an idea that ⁓

Shannon Popkin (11:05) Yeah.

Lindsay Schott (11:10) I don’t know. It’s like this issue is so disturbing. This issue is so difficult. I’m close to my pearls and I can’t adore it. But it’s like there is no being that hates sin more than God. There is no being who hates it, who is disgusted by it, who is offended by it as deeply as God is. We’re not even close. And so if we can leave that in his hands and if he is the one

Shannon Popkin (11:17) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Hmm.

Lindsay Schott (11:37) offering mercy and grace to sinners, then our deep offense isn’t even close, like doesn’t hold a candle to his.

Shannon Popkin (11:47) That’s really good because I feel like that is demonstrated in the brutality of the crucifixion. I guess he could have just had Jesus die in some not hard way. don’t know. Just die. Why a cross? Why this way? Why the blood and the suffering? This is excruciating what he went through.

Lindsay Schott (12:05) Mm-hmm. Wait.

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (12:16) You know, I mean, even the Roman rulers thought this guy doesn’t deserve that. Right. That’s bad. That is so bad. I’m not going to I’m and know, Pilate saw his out like, he was in Galilee. So let’s send him over to Herod. Like, I don’t want to I don’t want to deal with this. And then, you know, Herod didn’t want to either. Nobody really wanted to send ⁓ an innocent man. But

Lindsay Schott (12:23) way.

Shannon Popkin (12:41) I think without the crucifixion, might get the impression that maybe God wasn’t as, like, he didn’t think sin was that bad. Or I don’t know, like, there’s something about it being an awful, awful death that is paralleled with ⁓ how bad, how deeply offended God is with sin, right?

Lindsay Schott (13:07) absolutely. I think so. It would be one thing if he died like a quiet, I don’t know, know, accidental death or I don’t know. But the fact that his death was so brutal and the word excruciating comes from crucifixion. Like that’s our understanding of excruciating is crucifixion. It’s the same word, That there is a…

Shannon Popkin (13:21) Mmm. ⁓

Really? It’s the same root word? wow. Okay.

Lindsay Schott (13:29) Yeah, appreciating comes from appreciation.

So that’s ⁓ that God is articulating his great fury, his great fury against sin, his hatred of it, the violence of it, the horribleness of it. And to add on that Jesus is innocent, it’s even more gruesome. It’s even more awful. It’s just horrible what is happening. And the fact that God can even use that to to give an expression of how much he’s against it is part of the reason why it is so brutal, so public, so awful. It’s so awful because that is the awfulness of sin and that’s God’s attitude towards it is it magnifies all of that.

Shannon Popkin (14:05) Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yes. And yet…

Lindsay Schott (14:18) I was thinking about something too. I feel like I’ve in an effort to I’ve just heard teaching and I you know I could give them the benefit of the doubt but in small moments I feel like I’ve heard people even share like they’re trying to articulate the greatness of God’s grace and his mercy and forgiveness and so let’s say something like God doesn’t want you to be perfect. God isn’t expecting you to be awesome. He knows you’re a failure and so he can just forgive you and sort of I want to be like sort of.

The reality is that it costs God greatly to forgive you and me. Forgiveness costs the Father sending the Son and putting all His wrath on the Son and forgiveness costs Jesus’ life and the punishment that He endures. And so God can forgive because of what Jesus did, but not because sin is small to Him. Sin is not small. If it were small, He, you know, we would have skipped over the whole crucifixion.

Shannon Popkin (14:59) Mm-hmm, and the suffering. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Lindsay Schott (15:15) The requirement is perfection to be with God. It is. Absolutely. There’s a problem. You’ll never get there. But he’s making a way, right? That’s what substitution is. And so the crucifixion demands that we not make light or small of sin. But it does mean that we magnify what Jesus does, right? For us, which is a vast, vast chasm that he breathed in our stead.

Shannon Popkin (15:18) Yes, yes it is.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yes. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah,

yeah. This is sort of a side note, but I was kind of thinking about how strong Jesus was on the cross. Like, he looks so weak, and yet it’s like this beautiful display of strength and power because he, every moment that he suffered, he didn’t have to. Like, you know, we look at, if we put ourselves on a cross, we’re powerless, we’re nailed there, we can’t get down. He could have. He had all the power.

Lindsay Schott (15:47) Thank you.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Right.

Shannon Popkin (16:09) You know, he spoke two words, I am, and a whole army of soldiers fell back. I think you and I talked about that story in our Easter series. And so like he just, there was nothing powerless about this for him. yet, I think also there’s this pairing of God suffered by giving his son and Jesus suffered by taking, like, you know, laying down his authority and saying, not my will, but yours be done.

Lindsay Schott (16:16) That’s What?

Shannon Popkin (16:36) and then suffering at the hands of these wicked people. yeah, so truly justice and mercy, this one line in this story of Jesus saying something, oh, it just shows the vastness of his mercy. And I think you know what line I’m talking about.

Shannon Popkin (16:54) All right, so Lindsay, can you read Luke 23 versus 32 through 33 in the ESV translation?

Lindsay Schott (16:54) Okay, I’ll do that.

Yep.

Yes. Two others who were criminals were led away to be put to death with him. And when they came to the place that is called the skull, there they crucified him and the criminals, one on his right and one on his left.

Shannon Popkin (17:19) Oh, and 34, too.

Lindsay Schott (17:20) Okay. And Jesus said, Father forgive them for they know not what they do. And they cast lots to divide his garments.

Shannon Popkin (17:30) So there’s that phrase that I was talking about. my goodness, it’s so powerful. But let’s back up though and talk about like what’s surprising here about Jesus’s execution.

Lindsay Schott (17:40) I feel like it’s ⁓ because we are a Jesus-centric religion. Normally when you read the story, I think you’re just thinking about Jesus being crucified, but he wasn’t crucified alone. already is like, remember, there’s two other guys going through the exact same thing. ⁓ And rightly so, we see that later, but like Jesus was innocent going through this. There’s two guys that whatever it was, they did.

It was bad enough to say, yep, you get crucified. And then Jesus is being crucified with two other people, which means perhaps there were people there witnessing those guys too. So like in the throng is people who know Jesus, but in the throng is people who know these guys. They might hate that guy. They might be like, I’m glad he’s dying or they might be his family, but there’s people here who have to do with them and they’re with Jesus, which is the first thing that’s striking to me.

Shannon Popkin (18:35) I think so too. And I read in a couple of different places, people assume these might be Barabbas’ accomplices. And so like Jesus is probably on Barabbas’ cross, they were set to be killed this day. And so these guys were bad too, like bad, bad, you know? Like you didn’t just die on a cross for no reason. Like this was, they were making a public spectacle of you. You had to carry the cross beam, know, the horizontal, ⁓

Lindsay Schott (18:52) Yes.

Hmm?

Shannon Popkin (19:05) beam of your cross through the city streets. They wanted to instill terror and, you know, make an example of you. And so these guys were really, really bad and Rome wanted to be known as powerful. And so, yeah, but like from the perspective of like this didn’t just none of this happened by chance. This is all very carefully constructed by the father. What does it mean that

Jesus died between criminals, like really, really bad people.

Lindsay Schott (19:39) I think of a few things. One, it ⁓ makes me think of Isaiah 53. It says, his grave was assigned with the wicked. So there’s a sense in which him, like, and it even emphasizes, it says there’s one on his right and one on his left. And it was like, thank you for the clarity. ⁓ And you can read it and be like, why the detail? Who cares? But it’s like, there is a sense in which you’re supposed to know he is surrounded by guilt.

Shannon Popkin (19:48) Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah. huh. Yeah.

Lindsay Schott (20:08) He’s talking about people who are guilty. And that did literally happen, right? But also within the story, it gives you this portrait of Jesus dying as a sinner with sinners, as a guilty person with the guilty, that just by association, if you didn’t see Jesus’ face as someone walked by, they would say, there’s three guilty people who deserve to be crucified. So he’s literally surrounded by sin and guilt. And then we know,

Shannon Popkin (20:30) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Schott (20:37) from the rest of the story of knowing Jesus, he actually took on sin. So he’s surrounded by sin and sinners, and he’s also taking on sin and becomes a sinner to be punished. I think the description is for that is Jesus is now losing whatever association he had of goodness, righteousness, and innocence. He is being allotted with the wicked, punished as someone who’s wicked, and treated like someone who’s wicked.

Shannon Popkin (20:52) Yeah.

Hmm.

Yeah. And the solidarity of it, like he joined us in our, and like, I don’t want to see myself as either one of those sinners on that cross. And yet that’s the way the Bible paints my picture. I too am a bad, bad sinner, know, like bad, bad and deserve all of that. Like that’s what Jesus spent his time preaching and saying. It’s not just that you

Lindsay Schott (21:09) Mm-hmm.

Yeah. ⁓

Right.

Shannon Popkin (21:31) know, commit adultery, it’s that you think of someone in that way and you’ve already committed the sin. Like it’s, it’s to the fullest extent, it’s like the seed that it’s already born the fruit in your heart. And so ⁓ we all should identify with these two on either side of him. And Jesus didn’t stay distant, you know, he didn’t, he didn’t.

Lindsay Schott (21:57) Right.

Shannon Popkin (21:57) send word. You know,

He came, He was with them in their suffering. And He was like, what’s the verse that He was counted among sinners? You know, He was counted like there were three, one, two, three. And He’s the one in the middle. He’s the second one of those crucified. And there’s no distinction. In fact, I think He probably suffered more than them because of all of the mockery. You know, these guys weren’t saying they were anything great, but Jesus, know, His little placard says,

Lindsay Schott (22:02) Yes.

Yeah. Right.

Shannon Popkin (22:27) King of the Jews and they’re all making, that’s what Rome is making fun of is like, King of the Jews, ha ha, that’s so funny. So nobody’s mocking them in these other two centers in that way. ⁓ mean, it’s so, yeah, it’s the solidarity, but it’s also the extreme injustice because of his, like no sin, not one sin, right? Not one sin.

Lindsay Schott (22:57) I uh, this is one of the things I see it so much too in their reactions I know we read 32 to 34 but as you get you have these it isolates into these three characters in the story and now we’re seeing Jesus is being Counted among sinners and then you like you said you should be reading yourself. You have some options. You can be the scoffers which one of the

one of the criminals is, he scoffs him, you know, berates Jesus and it’s like, why don’t you rescue yourself and us from this? ⁓ And then the other one is like, stop, we deserve this, he doesn’t. ⁓ And as a reader, you’re like, well, which one are you? You know, am I looking at God? And I’m saying, look at all the grossness of the world. I might even be able to admit a little bit of the grossness in me, but that thief was kind of like…

Shannon Popkin (23:33) Hmm.

Lindsay Schott (23:47) You should save us from the consequences of our horrible lives.

Shannon Popkin (23:51) Yeah, well actually let me read that part. Well actually let me back up and read a verse from Matthew because Matthew says, Matthew 27, 44 says, in the same way even the criminals who were crucified with him taunted him. So it’s plural, the criminals. So both of them, both of them. I mean, can you just picture from either side of that cross, their nails? are, you know, their wrists have nails through them and they’re still finger pointing at Jesus. Like that is, I mean, this is, who do you think you are? You are a bad, bad sinner and you are on the cross and you’re still pointing at him as if, you know, there’s something about this finger pointing and condescending and mocking. Like you can’t mock someone without lifting yourself up above them.

Lindsay Schott (24:26) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (24:40) You you can’t judge them. can’t without this condescending judgment always traces downward. ⁓ And then the story goes on. The people watching, even the leaders, like even these religious leaders who know better, they’re scoffing. He saved others, let him save himself. If this is God’s Messiah, the chosen one, the soldiers also mocked him. They came offering sour wine and said, if you are the king of the Jews, save yourself, ha ha. You know, there’s just this scorn.

Lindsay Schott (24:45) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (25:10) And the Bible wants us to know, an inscription was above him. This is the king of the Jews. Then one of the criminals hanging there began to yell insults at him. Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us. So that’s the part where, ⁓ you know, they’re just, they’re joining in the mockery. They’re like, and it’s being led by the shepherds of Israel, right? Standing there, they had spit him, they had beat him, they had mocked him, they had pulled at his beard. It’s like, I mean, that scene of that just gripped my heart this week as I read it, this scene of like this illegal middle of the night trial, they’re trying to come up with, know, false witness after false witness, they finally come up with like two people who say the same thing. And then Caiaphas calls for like, let’s, we need a verdict right now. And they’re all like, he’s guilty. And it’s just like this mad rush of all the good religious people like running at him, spitting at him, beating him. mean, like, who are these people? Where did this, this is craziness in the middle of the night. And they’re not done. They show up at the cross and they want to, you know, they’re happy about this, that he is getting what they think he deserves. And the criminals join him. I just feel like there’s a, that’s a real low. That’s a real low.

Lindsay Schott (26:12) Right.

Yeah, What’s amazing about seeing Jesus and draw that is he does it all quiet like right? He doesn’t fight that back. He doesn’t justify himself Isaiah talks about him being silent. He’s gonna endure all that although he could silence everything He’s gonna endure all this horrible mocking from people who who say I’m doing this in God’s name I’m doing this cuz God I’m I am protecting what is holy and sacred about God

Shannon Popkin (26:41) Yeah.

Lindsay Schott (27:01) all the while doing this kind of thing, injustice, mockery, scorning the son of God himself. And Jesus endures all of that quietly. And here actually asks for their forgiveness.

Shannon Popkin (27:12) Yeah. Yeah, that’s what I was going to say. He breaks the silence. He breaks the silence. ⁓ mean, now, and we always have to clarify, he’s not asking for their forgiveness as in like, will you forgive me? He’s asking that they be forgiven. ⁓ Read that verse one more time for us, 34.

Lindsay Schott (27:37) And Jesus said, Father forgive them for they know not what they do and they cast lots for his garments

Shannon Popkin (27:43) How is that so surprising?

Lindsay Schott (27:46) Well, because we are, we’re us and he’s him. ⁓ We’re us. And either we want to be like Peter and we want to fight for Jesus because we know this is wrong. Or if we were in that situation, we would fight for ourselves. And what’s so surprising is Jesus is already is interceding for them, which is what the cross is in general, is interceding. ⁓ And even talks, like even mentions their ignorance.

Shannon Popkin (27:50) Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Lindsay Schott (28:13) not as a reason to condemn them, but he’s actually asking for mercy. They should know what they’re doing and they do not. And he’s still asking for mercy, even in their ignorance. Forgive them because they don’t get the magnitude of what’s happening.

Shannon Popkin (28:20) Yeah.

Right. They do know what they’re doing. They know they’re mocking. They’re not, you know,

It’s not a sin of omission. they very much know what they’re doing, but they don’t know the magnitude because they don’t believe who he is. It’s like that makes a difference. Who you sin against makes a difference. I love that illustration that Jimmy Needham used, you know, in like talking about

Lindsay Schott (28:37) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (28:49) Do we deserve judgment? mean, really, we deserve like, do we really believe that we deserve to be on a cross? Well, I’m telling you, hell is a lot worse than that. And it’s gonna go on forever. And God says we do deserve hell, but I love that illustration, know, Jimmy uses to try and help us see why, like, why do we deserve such wrath? Like, why is it that bad? He says, like, if you take an ax to your neighbor’s tree,

Lindsay Schott (28:52) Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (29:16) You know, that’s bad. you, you know, you, you will have to like probably pay a fine and like maybe get them a new tree. I don’t know. Community service. I don’t know what it would be, but like that’s bad. But if you take an ax to your neighbor, like your neighbor is made in God’s image. Like that is bad, bad, right? And all of us have sinned not even just against each other, but we’ve sinned against God. you know, sinning against another human being is really bad. And, and yet we’ve sinned not against

Shannon Popkin (29:46) just them, but we’ve sinned against God, the Holy One. And so that’s why the judgment for our sin is in proportion to the one whom we have offended. And that’s our great God. And so that is what we deserve. And yet Jesus says, please forgive them, Father. He doesn’t want all of that judgment to fall on them. And this is where I just see God’s mercy. you know, in this statement, Jesus is mercy. Jesus is the exact, exact representation of God. And I think we just have this picture. It’s like what I said before, we feel like God is righteous and I’m standing in for God and I’m going to, you know, hold those people accountable because they’re wrong. And, and we think like if God is squeezed, what comes out is judgment. But here, I mean, God is being squeezed like pressure, like nothing else.

Lindsay Schott (30:41) So.

Shannon Popkin (30:43) Earlier that night, he was sweating great drops of blood. That’s the amount of pressure. And what comes out of Jesus when he is squeezed with excruciating pain is mercy. This is the words that come out of his mouth. These are being squeezed out by the crucifixion as he’s crushed. Crushed is a better word, not squeezed, right? As he’s crushed, what comes out is mercy, not judgment. I find that astonishing.

Lindsay Schott (31:10) Yeah, well, and I, you know, if we think about spiritual maturity, if I’m a Christian and I want to grow into the image of Christ and I think about what it means, what does it mean for me to grow in His way and in His image? First of all, it, and He says it in so many ways, Jesus says it in so many ways, the stories and actual people, it’s actually spiritual maturity for me to continue to grow in my knowledge of my sinfulness, of my deep darkness, that if the longer I grow in Christ, The more I’m actually going to become aware of how deeply flawed, terribly selfish, and the wickedness that lives in me. Because Colossians will talk about our flesh, which is continually being corrupted. It doesn’t just get reformed. That’s why has to be crucified. It has to be dead because it will not be reformed. And so actually spiritual maturity means that I am aware of, I am receiving, I am a yes to, ⁓ my. I am much worse than I ever thought that I was before and I didn’t realize it. And sometimes that kind of conviction, if someone is growing, that can feel discouraging. Like maybe, am I growing in the wrong direction? Am I going the wrong way? No. Maturity is, ⁓ my goodness. I have now just become aware of another layer of terrible motive that exists in there and I am a deeply flood center who needs a savior.

Shannon Popkin (32:14) Yes, yeah. ⁓

Lindsay Schott (32:40) That’s maturity because then maturity also says I have a Savior and I should go to Him because I can’t solve this problem. He has got to right maturity in us doesn’t look like well, I don’t have that issue anymore. And now I’m going to hold you accountable. Right first John have no sin. You’re a liar. First John says if you have sin because you do your job is to bring it in the light and community and then grow and holiness and in the light.

Shannon Popkin (32:57) Right.

Yeah.

Hmm.

Lindsay Schott (33:10) And so maturity is actually growing in the knowledge of their vast sinfulness and darkness, which will show you in even more beauty and even more dimension, how much mercy you have been given by God. And then you start conversations with other people differently, because if in my insights, I really know that what I’ve earned and what I deserve today is for God to hold me accountable.

Shannon Popkin (33:15) Hmm.

Yeah.

Lindsay Schott (33:37) for every wrong word, every wrong motive, everything I’ve ever done, then that kind of punishment, knowing that’s where I stand, if he had not acted on my behalf, it changes the conversation I have with people, right? It’s always how I’m treating them because I’m now starting this conversation as someone who knows, like, I can deeply love God because I know I’ve been wildly forgiven, right? The story that he gives. And I associate more with the…

Shannon Popkin (33:52) Mm.

Yeah.

Lindsay Schott (34:06) other criminal who’s like, I deserve this. He doesn’t.

Shannon Popkin (34:10) Yeah. Well, actually we kind of see that progression in this other criminal, right? Because at the beginning, like I read in Matthew, he’s with the other guy mocking Jesus. And then somehow, and I think it’s probably in response to hearing Jesus say like this mercy, Father forgive them for they don’t know what they’re doing. And I don’t know if Jesus is directing that just to those who crucified him, just to those who are mocking at the foot of the cross, you know, or

Lindsay Schott (34:27) Forgive them.

Shannon Popkin (34:39) the all of the above, probably all of the above. Like it’s like the whole experience. think he’s looking at what’s happening and like this is like father, I know you are so deeply offended by this. I know. And I’m calling for your free. They don’t know, you know, he’s like, I’m here on the ground level. I’m feeling this. I’m experiencing this. And I know that I’m looking at them and they have no idea what they’re doing right now. If they knew they wouldn’t do it, obviously. But he calls for their forgiveness and this apparently affects the other one of the criminals. So go ahead and read 40 through 43 for us.

Lindsay Schott (35:18) Yes,

42 43 is, but the other rebuked him saying, do you not fear God since you’re under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds, but this man has done nothing wrong. And he said to do the next one. Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. And he said to him, truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise.

Shannon Popkin (35:39) Mm-hmm, yeah,

Wow, right? That’s okay. What is surprising here, Lindsay?

Lindsay Schott (35:55) ⁓ so many things are just about to get-

Shannon Popkin (35:57) Hahaha!

Lindsay Schott (35:58) I mean, this criminal is giving a… He actually has a huge confession here. It was a huge confession moment. He says, you not fear God, which is now an orientation around, we’re actually dealing with a God issue. We have a God problem. Don’t you fear God since you’re under the same sentence of condemnation, which I think he’s saying, God is rightly condemning us. God is really condemning you and me, okay? For everything that we’ve done.

Shannon Popkin (36:06) Yeah?

And like just for context, like these are Jewish. We know these are Jewish, right? So they grew up with, know, Torah school. They had the law. They knew that robbing people, you know, hiding as bandits, that was wrong. And they’re getting what they… And so like, but for him to admit that is not in character. That’s very surprising.

Lindsay Schott (36:31) Yeah.

There’s a huge admission right at the end. God rightly judges me. ⁓ And it’s just. Like this is what we earned. This is the reward for our deeds. We did this. We’re here because of what we did. So he’s got a huge confession of a sin and towards God. And then this amazing thing, Jesus didn’t do anything wrong. both the acknowledgement of own sin and the acknowledgement that Jesus has not.

Shannon Popkin (36:59) Yeah.

Lindsay Schott (37:14) that there’s nothing that this guy did. He’s completely innocent. He’s totally pure. Those are two really big confessions from someone as they’re dying about Jesus who’s next to them. Because Jesus is not powerful at this moment. He’s dying. ⁓ He is not coming off the cross. He’s not… He was just compassionate. And yet this guy is seeing something so profoundly important about Jesus. when he isn’t powerful, he isn’t doing miracles, he’s not doing incredible things, he’s dying. And this guy is saying, no, he’s right.

Shannon Popkin (37:50) Yeah, I mean, the contrast, the juxtaposition of these religious leaders who have all the information, have had all this time with Jesus, you know, have talked with him and have had the opportunity to ask all their questions and they don’t see what this criminal guy sees. He sees that he’s wrong. The Pharisees do not see they’re wrong. He sees he’s wrong. He sees Jesus is innocent. The Pharisees don’t see that Jesus is innocent. like he…

Lindsay Schott (37:54) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (38:17) And he doesn’t see it because, like you said, because of some miracle, because of some sermon. Jesus has said nothing except for a merciful statement, know, merciful request of the Father. But he somehow sees that. And that, think, actually, what you just walked us through there, you know, I’m bad. I deserve this. He’s innocent. He doesn’t deserve this. Like those are sort of prerequisites for us to come to Jesus in the first place. Is that, I mean, it’s sort of like there’s a gospel presentation here.

Lindsay Schott (38:47) Please.

Absolutely.

It’s what Jesus said at beginning. He’s like, it’s not the healthy who need a physician, but the sick. And if you know the inside joke, everyone’s sick. Right? But it would take a miracle for you to know that because no one wants to admit that. No one wants to say that, that I’m sick and I actually can’t fix this. So this confession of this criminal reminds me of that. This is his admission of, I am guilty, but I know that guy’s not.

Shannon Popkin (38:56) Yeah.

Lindsay Schott (39:20) know that guy isn’t. i think the next thing he says is incredible too. he’s so bold to say, could you just remember me in your kingdom? first of all, he’s got this faith that’s willing to be like, he might remember me. you know, like there can be a despair and sin that would say, jesus isn’t going to do anything for me. but this guy also believes he might. like he might remember me if i ask him. so there’s there’s like a faith that’s like, remember me. and then he says,

Shannon Popkin (39:25) Yeah, what? Go ahead.

Yeah. Yeah.

Lindsay Schott (39:49) when you come in your kingdom. it’s like, that’s a really big thing he’s saying about a man who’s dying. Like it’s possible that this criminal is saying, you’re the son of David that we waited for, that is going to bring the kingdom. And I don’t know how all that’s going to work because you’re obviously going next to me, but you’re doing something and I’d like to be a part of that. His admission here is wild and it’s so small and it’s so short.

Shannon Popkin (39:58) Cheers. Yes.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, it’s, I mean, it’s a faith statement here. He’s saying something is going to happen. There’s going to be your kingdom and you’re going to be entering it and you’re going to have the capacity to remember because you’re going to be the king, right? You’re going to, you’re going to have the capacity to either extend judgment or extend mercy. And I’m, I’d really like for you to remember me. so,

Lindsay Schott (40:32) Thanks. ⁓

Shannon Popkin (40:40) And I’m sure he did not have the full construct of the, you know, so many of the things that are happening here, people are just saying, but they don’t even realize the implications. And I don’t think he probably does either. I mean, these guys are suffering. All three of them are suffering for each breath. Like every breath they’re having to raise up and get another breath. And so to speak is laborious, which is makes it, I mean, for them to use one of those last breaths to mock Jesus’s. horrible, but now I mean this turn in him like there’s this shift that is miraculous really, you know, it’s it’s very surprising and ⁓ it makes this worth this whole thing worth telling like that’s why this made it into the story Luke story because like to see this shift in a criminal and I you know, I do think sometimes it takes Getting to the end of ourselves to realize what he’s realizing here, you know

Lindsay Schott (41:15) Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

yeah.

Shannon Popkin (41:38) Like he’s on a cross, he’s got no pride left, right? The other guy is still holding on to his pride though, still mocking, but he’s had a change of heart. And so I think what I’m noticing about that change of heart is that it’s born out of understanding mercy. Seeing Jesus, like the only thing Jesus said is forgive them for they do not know what they’re doing. He doesn’t answer any of the mocking, doesn’t.

Lindsay Schott (41:41) Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (42:06) defend himself. doesn’t say, ⁓ I am the king of the deuce. He doesn’t do any of that. It doesn’t waste his waste. He doesn’t waste his breath. ⁓ but he, he does show this amazing mercy and that’s what, that’s what he responds to. And isn’t that kind of what we respond to too.

Lindsay Schott (42:10) Thank you.

Yeah. mean, Romans is like, it’s actually the kindness of God that leads you to repentance. You know, it’s like realizing the mercy, the kindness of God that could forgive you is actually the thing that draws us near to him. I mean, if you just believe that he’s going to be shrewd and reject you, there’s a lot of reason to shore yourself up and not come to him. But to know that he’s compassionate and merciful is revolutionary. And in some ways you’re like,

Shannon Popkin (42:29) Yes. Yeah.

Lindsay Schott (42:53) ⁓ you know humans we’re always fighting for something. We’re fighting to get position. We’re fighting to keep the position We’re fighting for our name to be out there We’re always fighting something and wouldn’t it seem right that the one person who’s actually king of everything and has no competition Is the one the only one who has the capacity to say I can forgive I can forgive You guys have to fight for everything that you have because you think that’s all you have But I can forgive because I’m actually in control of everything. I actually am the most powerful, the most glorious, the most wonderful. And so I’m giving compassion. I think without end Jesus, that’s one of the things that makes him so stunning. And sadly, unlike us, is that compassion and the kindness that exists in him.

Shannon Popkin (43:25) Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, but that’s what I’m holding on to though is, you know, as I contrast judgy girls who want to hold up, like, you’re wrong and I’m holding this line. I want to be more like Jesus here. Like, just have this empathy and compassion. Like what you said earlier was so beautiful about if you are holding on so diligently that you are right and they are wrong and you have no empathy or compassion, like you got to check yourself on that because Jesus himself had empathy and mercy and this is what will change lives, right? I mean, this guy’s life goes from death to life in a moment. Today, you will be with me in paradise and we don’t have time to unpack all that means. All I know is he’s gonna be with Jesus. Like he’s not gonna be sent away from Jesus and he’s gonna be with him in some sort of paradise. It’s like the word is back to the Garden of Eden. ⁓ It’s like, He’s gonna be with Jesus and I know we’re still waiting for the coming age and what did today mean? And I don’t know, I don’t have all the answers for that, but I know that he’s with Jesus and that’s what we all want and need. ⁓ So let’s wrap up those, Lindsay, by talking about how do we live like this story’s true?

Lindsay Schott (44:46) Yeah

Yeah.

One thing I think about, especially in your lines of talking about compassion, if we are a judgy girl and we feel like we have a line to tow and we need to tow it for other people, it’s really, really important to look at what God’s reaction is to sin. Because like I said, no one hates sin more than him. No one hates sin more than he does. But his reaction to sin was compassion and kindness and sacrifice of his own life so that people could be saved.

Shannon Popkin (45:15) Yes. Yeah.

Lindsay Schott (45:25) And so if I hate sin rightly, and I am saying I want to feel an action towards hating sin, then the right path is compassion. The right path is kindness. The right path is sacrifice. If I’m going down a path of mocking, scoffing, beating people up because I think I need to toe a line, I have now gone into the wrong team. I have now ventured into the wrong place. And the right thing would be

Shannon Popkin (45:52) Ooh, ouch.

Lindsay Schott (45:54) God show me compassion, because when Jesus first tells the Pharisees, go and learn what this means. I desire mercy, not sacrifice. Part of me is hopeful that I’m like, it means it can be learned, right? What would it have meant for one Pharisee to come to Jesus in that moment and say, I’m not compassionate, I’m angry at everybody. Can you tell me what you mean by that? Help me. That’s a great prayer.

Shannon Popkin (46:10) Yes, yes.

Lindsay Schott (46:20) It’s a great prayer that he receives to say, I am angry, right? Even David says, my heart is grieved that your law is not kept. That’s real. However, if we’re going to say we grow in the image of Christ, Christ was crucified for sinners in a grievous way. And so we must grow in his image to be sacrificial for the people we’re angry at, to be merciful and kind and compassionate to the things that we’re angry about. and ultimately to give our lives in the same way that Jesus does. That would be maturity and that that would be growth. Because also on some level too, when God does come and eradicate all evil and suffering, that’s all in his hands anyway. God isn’t scared about the problem of evil right now. He’s not concerned about who has the cultural majority. He is not worried one bit about the judgment.

Shannon Popkin (47:12) Right.

Lindsay Schott (47:19) And if it’ll happen, and if it’ll happen well, and when it happens, he’s fine with all of that. And he’s also really glad about his redemption in Jesus, which is, I’m going to offer them mercy first. So if that’s what he’s doing, that’s what we should be doing. I’m going to offer mercy first. And he will deal with what’s wrong with them. But I certainly don’t have the ability to do so, you know?

Shannon Popkin (47:24) Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

⁓ that’s good, Lindsay. Like I don’t have to concern myself with judgment. That is already taken care of. That is, you know, there’s no nothing I need to do to contribute to that. And if I think I can judge someone into mercy, that’s just not, that’s not what’s modeled here. Right. ⁓ Mercy is what leads people to repentance. If it can happen with a Barabbas type, it can happen with others like him and, even those that, you know, I mean, the more righteous people on the ground, you know, in front of the cross, like the more think they’re righteous type people, ⁓ just noticing the compassion of God and asking for it and wanting to show mercy versus the scoffing and the hating. ⁓

Lindsay Schott (48:37) Embracing our sinfulness is a good thing. If I find in myself just consistent attitude of why don’t you get to my level, I have probably forgotten what level I’m actually at. But to ask God, Lord, just what David says in the Psalms, show me the offensive way in me and lead me.

Shannon Popkin (48:48) ⁓ yeah. Mmm, yeah.

Lindsay Schott (48:58) God mercifully grows us by exposing our sins, our attitudes that we just become numb to. We’re not seeing anymore. And so if you find in yourself a ⁓ judging attitude, we have lost connection then with how much we have been saved and how much compassion and mercy and forbearance God has shown in us because of Christ. That it wasn’t like we didn’t need him anymore to be crucified for us. I earned that, Lindsay, I earned that punishment.

Shannon Popkin (49:25) Mm.

Lindsay Schott (49:27) And if I have forgotten and I can’t have mercy on a fellow sinner, then I’ve lost touch with the greatness of his mercy, right? I’ve actually lost touch with the greatness of his kindness and his compassion because my attitude every day really should be one of, I should be burning in hell today, forever. And I’m not. And not because of me, that’s because of him. And I start every day as someone who has to receive the mercy of God through the work of Christ.

Shannon Popkin (49:46) Mm, yeah, yeah.

Lindsay Schott (49:56) So that then if I have any conversation with anyone else, that’s how I’m approaching them. As someone who has received absurd, ridiculous, offensive amounts of mercy that was not deserved in all of my wickedness. And all of that blows me away.

Shannon Popkin (50:12) Yes, last

Lindsay Schott (50:13) All of that is good growth. That I would grow in the constant deep understanding of the darkness of my soul. It’s not a bad thing, that’s a mature thing because it drives me more to Christ and to exalt His compassion even more. It’s like, oh my goodness, I was even unaware of that terrible motive in there. You purchased and you paid for that too and He says, yes I did. When you didn’t even know it, I did.

Shannon Popkin (50:18) Mmm. Yeah.

Yeah. And I just want to like add one more caveat because I feel like we think of it being, sometimes we think of it being as spiritual growth. Like you said earlier that, I feel so guilty and ashamed for my sin. and that’s not it either. Like, like being stuck there.

Lindsay Schott (50:58) Yeah, that’s really

important, Jan, yeah.

Shannon Popkin (51:02) Right. That’s go ahead. How would you respond if that

Lindsay Schott (51:03) Yeah, think, yeah, if you’re if you’re someone who is dealing with a constant sense of shame and guilt and can’t come before God and I don’t deserve anything, that’s also a you know, it’s like a ditch on two sides. We cannot be aware of it at all or be hyper focused on that. If that is something you’re dealing with constant shame, constant guilt, I am the worst. Then the good news is there’s two parts of this equation. It’s not enough just to say I’m the worst. It just leaves you as being the worst. Fill out the rest of the equation, which is He is the best. He is the best. Jesus is a friend of sinners and He is a great savior of great sinners. And to trust Him, believe it. It really is an issue of belief. Because if I magnify my sin as surely God can’t forgive me, surely Jesus can’t cover this, surely I have to stay hidden in the dark, it minimizes what He did. Because it makes your sin bigger than Him. And there’s no sin.

Shannon Popkin (51:36) Right?

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Schott (52:02) and there’s nothing bigger than him. There’s also no sin done to you that’s bigger than him. He is greater than all of it. So to look at shame and guilt and then also apply the truth of the goodness, which is Jesus, yes, paid for all of it. And not only did he pay for it, he’s welcoming you into his family. Your whole identity changed. And then you become, then you learn the promises and say them to yourself and say, my whole identity changed. I didn’t deserve it, not one bit. I’ve been made beloved. I was chosen, I’ve been put in his family, and that is reality. That’s reality. Just staying in the, just the shame and the guilt of where you are is actually not fully growing. It’s just the beginning. Fully growing is believing that we can be unbelief and the other part of growth is loved beyond measure. Loved beyond measure.

Shannon Popkin (52:51) Mm.

So good. I just heard a beautiful sermon there, Lindsay. Thank you so much. This has been so rich and I’ve enjoyed it so much. And we only scratched the surface. I mean, there are like 16 other ways we could have gone with this conversation, but it was rich. I know.

Lindsay Schott (52:58) Yes!

I love you too.

⁓ I know even one the I wrote and it didn’t feel like it was, I mean it’s in there, but it’s not, I think where you are with Judgy Girl was great, but thinking about Jesus on the cross that everyone is telling him to get off of that. And even the other criminal is like, take us out of this and Jesus will not. And so in my suffering, I look at him and I accuse God and I’m like, why don’t you take me out of this bad stuff. If you’re really God, then take me out of the bad thing.

Shannon Popkin (53:22) Yes.

Yeah, exactly.

Lindsay Schott (53:34) And God is demonstrating his love by shouldering the bad thing and not taking us out of it. He goes into it. So my accusation towards God and my suffering is, are you? Why didn’t you, why did you let the suffering happen? Why don’t you take it away? And then I accuse him of not being good and I accuse him of not being kind or compassionate. But his response is, I’m going to keep the suffering and I’m going to enter it with you. ⁓

Shannon Popkin (53:44) Yeah, ⁓ that’s really good.

Lindsay Schott (54:02) I’m going enter it and I’m going to shoulder it for you. And that’s his answer to our suffering. I’m going to get in it. So when you suffer, I’ll be with you in it.

Shannon Popkin (54:13) Yeah, that solidarity. Yeah, I mean, it’s beautiful. ⁓ This quote from Mike McKinley in Luke for you, he says, ⁓ the fact is Jesus cannot save everyone. There is one person Jesus cannot save. He cannot save sinners. I’m sorry, he can either save sinners or he can save himself. He could either have died in your place so that you might go free or he could have saved himself and left you to perish. Jesus did not respond to the soldier’s taunt if you are the king, save yourself, because he was focused on saving others. Like, I just think that’s so good. You know, he couldn’t both save himself and save you, so he chose you. That’s just, that is the truth. That is powerful. Well, thank you, Lindsay. It was a feast today. I loved it. It was feast day. Wow.

Shannon Popkin (55:08) So appreciate you. Where can people find you if they want to follow you your watercolor? I forgot to say that.

Lindsay Schott (55:10) You can, yes. Well, that’s all right. Yeah, they can find me on Instagram. It’s my name, Lindsey Schott, watercolor, because I do watercolor. So that’s kind of where I share public stuff that. But that’s probably the best place to see where I update things there.