Shannon Popkin (00:00) Erica Wiggenhorn, welcome back to Live Like It’s True.

Erica Wiggenhorn (00:03) It’s so fun to be with you again, my friend,

Shannon Popkin (00:07) I was thinking back. I believe yours was episode number two or three when we first launched Live Like It’s True, which is like, I don’t know, four years ago. I lose track. But yeah, you were like one of the very first guests, one of the OGs. And so I can’t believe

Erica Wiggenhorn (00:19) One of the OGs.

Shannon Popkin (00:23) let me just introduce you to those who don’t know you yet. So Erica Wiggenhorn is a national speaker with Aspire Women’s Events. So I see you all the time on Instagram, all these large events, small events, people at your kitchen table. You love mentoring in all different settings. and you serve with Proverbs 31 Ministries writing, and you’re on the teaching team, which is amazing. And you’re an award-winning author with Moody.

and and overall your joy is to to help women in particular discover delight in God’s word as they become equipped with the tools to read it with confidence. So today though, we’re gonna be talking about your latest project, Loving Your Wayward Child, a Christian guide to stand in faith and build connection. my goodness, you have a copy.

and this one is with Lifeway. I am so excited about this book, Erica. Just very, very excited. as I was writing my new book, kinda judgy, this topic of going no contact was something that I I kept bumping into, you know, because like in the book, we’re talking about judging, feeling judged, becoming judgy.

And a lot of times parents who are going through this loss of relationship with their kid where their child is shutting them out, they’re feeling so judged. I anytime there’s a conflict, a break, a breach.

You’ve got two parties. And I don’t think you would ever say that the mom is the completely innocent party, right? But

Erica Wiggenhorn (01:53) Right. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (01:54) in this book, you’re you’re focusing in on like when your child is making these decisions that are truly wrong. They’re going against God’s ways, against his standards. What do you do? What do you do? So

This I’m assuming, is coming out of your life, but it’s not what I love, Erica, is it’s not a story that has the pretty bow on it, you know, where we can like say, that it all turned out well. You’re in the middle. Are you still kinda in the middle of this story? Give us a little background.

Erica Wiggenhorn (02:24) Definitely,

definitely, yeah. we d we went through a period you know, with our son where we did have very little contact. We didn’t know where he was living, you know, we didn’t know what was going on in his life in a day-to-day basis. We definitely have moved past that stage in the relationship.

But there’s still a longing and there’s still a loss. you know, he’s still making choices, like the tagline of the book, Loving Your Wayward Child. He’s still making choices that are breaking our hearts. It’s not what we want for him, it’s not what we believe God wants for him. and so we’re still in the middle. while we are seeing how God has worked and is working, we are still waiting in many, many

Shannon Popkin (03:13) Mm.

Erica Wiggenhorn (03:13) ways. and

I think honestly, Shannon, that’s that’s maybe the biggest piece of the book, Loving Your Wayward Child, that that I love is because it isn’t written from the mountaintop. It isn’t written with the happily ever after, look at how my family story is all perfect and it all worked out. you know, it’s written from the messy middle. and it’s written from a position of cast your view up.

Because you’re still heading up to that mountaintop. God is still working.

Shannon Popkin (03:46) Yes, yes.

Erica Wiggenhorn (03:48) but keep your eyes focused on the right thing, which is

Shannon Popkin (03:51) Mm-hmm.

Erica Wiggenhorn (03:51) keeping them focused on God. And so the biggest part of loving your wayward child, while I do share some of our story, the biggest part of loving your wayward child is truly God’s story and the story

Shannon Popkin (04:04) Mm.

Erica Wiggenhorn (04:05) of the change that He’s brought about in me and the healing that he’s brought about in me.

while I am continuing to watch and to wait for the healing that he’s bringing about in our son.

Shannon Popkin (04:18) That’s good. Yes. And I I’ve talked a little bit on our podcast. We had about a five-year break from a relationship with one of our kids. And I, when that was restored, I saw that as the good part of the story. But actually looking back at that five year hiatus, I see that as one of the best parts of the story because it was in that middle. The Lord was reshaping my heart, helping me to.

Turn from self reliance to trust in him to wait, even when I couldn’t see him working. and as I clung to God’s promises, he was reshaping my heart. you know, and it I really do. I never would have chosen it. And so if there’s a mom listening and you’re in the middle, I know it doesn’t feel like the good part. I know you just want to skip to the good part, don’t you? We all do. And yet, this can be

One of the good parts, if you will do as you’re saying, Erica, like turn your focus on the Lord, But I just I I I think I always have a concern, like, and I’m sure listeners do too. Like, how does your son feel about this? Like, has he given you permission to write about this?

Erica Wiggenhorn (05:26) yeah. That’s such a great question. I’m glad you asked it. so I would say that my son’s story is my son’s story, right? so

Shannon Popkin (05:33) Mm-hmm.

Erica Wiggenhorn (05:34) the book is not designed to be his story. He he’s the holder of his story. the book is really about my story and what God has done.

in my own life in teaching me to trust him, bringing about healing and forgiveness for the brokenness that I have experienced, but also the brokenness that I have caused. and it’s really about how God has healed my heart to be able to bravely build connections with our son in a healthier way.

Shannon Popkin (06:11) Mm.

Erica Wiggenhorn (06:12) we talk about

what are my default reactions that are causing this relationship to further sever. And instead of being like Jesus and moving towards my son.

Shannon Popkin (06:26) Mm-hmm.

Erica Wiggenhorn (06:27) pulling away. and so we talk about that a lot in the book. But I I had an honest conversation, you know, with with our son, and I said, I’m I’m working on this book. I’m I’m working on this story because this is a a it’s a you know it’s a pandemic, honestly. I think I read a latest statistic

Shannon Popkin (06:47) Mm-hmm. It is, yeah.

Erica Wiggenhorn (06:49) that something like 60%, that’s over half, 60%

Of Gen Z is cutting ties with their parents. and they’re feeling justified in doing so. In fact, they’re glorifying this decision to cut these ties, and so this is a huge issue, and we experienced it in our own family, and so I feel the need to speak into it, but I did say, you know, let’s just make a pact with each other right now that

if

there is anything that you hear me say online or that you’re come that you come across and you’re saying, mom, I don’t like that, or mom, I don’t I see that s whole situation so differently than you do. you’re gonna come to me and and I’m gonna take it down because I’m going to respect your heart and your feelings because it is.

J you already said it, Shannon. You know, every relationship has two sides and two perspectives.

Shannon Popkin (07:54) mean, I feel like that’s even telling that you can have freedom to say that much to him and that he’s open, you know, you’ve got an open door of communication. That’s so good. And we’re gonna be looking at the story of the prodigal son.

In Luke 15, which is such a beautiful story. and I think it’s so it’s such a compelling story. I actually was teaching at a I think it was like a a women’s center or something. And I just

Erica Wiggenhorn (08:22) Yeah, mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (08:22) I basically told the story of the prodigal son,

I just basically told the story of this father who is so merciful and you know, the whole the whole story, which we’re gonna get into. But these three women came up afterward and they said, That story just like moved my heart. Is that like written in a book somewhere? And I was like, my goodness. Yeah, it’s written in a book. It is written in a book. And please let me show you where in the book. I don’t know how I didn’t I should have been overly clear about that. But my point is these women, I

they were at least as unfamiliar enough with the Bible to not recognize that that was a story in the Bible. And

Erica Wiggenhorn (08:57) In the Bible, yeah.

Shannon Popkin (08:59) so I I I think it is such a compelling story for the whole world. And I think particularly for those who are experiencing this the separation, right? There’s there’s something very compelling about.

the mercy of God. And yet I th there’s another character in the story who isn’t excited about the mercy. And I and I think

Erica Wiggenhorn (09:22) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (09:23) I think there’s something about this issue of your kid choosing to go no contact that is so painful and so hard on your heart.

So let’s just talk about like the the problem in general. Like what what is causing this? I feel like there’s this, like you’re saying a pandemic. Do you see culturally something that’s playing into this?

Erica Wiggenhorn (09:47) Yeah. you know, let’s just start from from a 30,000-foot view theological basis, right? Theologically we know that the the end of sin is death, right? Death of our relationship with God, death spiritually within ourselves. But the process of getting there is separation. Sin results in separation.

And so when your child is making choices that are breaking your heart, there’s there’s going to end up being a level of separation in the relationship. you know, in loving your wayward child, I don’t just talk about estrangement. I talk about the

Shannon Popkin (10:31) Okay.

Erica Wiggenhorn (10:32) separation that happens with any level of choices that your child

Shannon Popkin (10:37) Yes.

Erica Wiggenhorn (10:38) is making that are breaking your heart. And some of those might even be, you know, that

They’re still saying that they’re a follower of Jesus. They’re still saying they’re a Christian, but they’re making choices in their lives that are just, you know, ripping your mama heart to shreds because it’s not what you would have chosen for them. But

Shannon Popkin (10:54) Sure.

Erica Wiggenhorn (10:56) I think the there’s going to be some level of separation or estrangement anytime one of our children is making choices that we feel either go against God’s best for them.

Or go against the values of our home and the way that we have raised them. And they may have very different definitions of what it looks like to follow Jesus than we, than we did in our own home. And even that can cause a level of separation. So I think, you know, the there’s a theological foundation here that we see all throughout scripture that when someone is making a choice that we feel goes against God’s word and we feel like we’re standing on the truth of God’s word, there’s gonna be an element of separation there.

Shannon Popkin (11:40) Mm-hmm.

Erica Wiggenhorn (11:41) But culturally, I think there’s another thing at play completely outside of the theological box. And that’s really

Shannon Popkin (11:47) Mm, yeah.

Erica Wiggenhorn (11:49) this idea. this idea that you know, I I owe it to myself. and we say it in all kinds of noble ways, like I owe it to myself to protect my peace. I owe it to myself to set up.

Healthy

boundaries and remove toxicity from my life, right? And when you hear people say those things, you’re like, yeah, you should, you should protect your peace. Like, that’s wise. You should set boundaries. That’s wise. And I’m not saying that it’s not, because, like you already mentioned, there are parents that are indeed toxic, and there are parents

Shannon Popkin (12:31) Yeah.

Erica Wiggenhorn (12:31) that are indeed abusive. But in that generation in particular,

the the idea of therapy and and looking into yourself and being your best self and and stripping off anything and everything that prevents that within you that is highly applauded and so it almost becomes like if I don’t draw these boundaries and if I don’t push people out then I

Then I’m sinning. I’m doing something wrong. And so

Shannon Popkin (13:10) Mm-hmm.

Erica Wiggenhorn (13:11) it’s flipped the whole thing on its head. And

Shannon Popkin (13:14) Yeah.

Erica Wiggenhorn (13:16) and that’s why we have to dial back to theologically, like, okay, whenever whenever there’s separation of any kind, then somewhere there are sinful choices involved. And so we

Shannon Popkin (13:29) Mm, mm.

Erica Wiggenhorn (13:30) have to go back to what are the sinful choices that are at play here?

We we can identify our child’s sinful choices probably pretty easily, right? It’s so much

Shannon Popkin (13:39) Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Uh-huh.

Erica Wiggenhorn (13:40) easier to look out the window than look in the mirror. but

Shannon Popkin (13:43) Mm-hmm.

Erica Wiggenhorn (13:44) what are our reactions to those choices that maybe are sinful?

Shannon Popkin (13:48) yeah, that’s and that’s my book kind of judgy. Like we’re dealing with all of that in that book. but you just said something so powerful. It’s like when there is separation, there is sin. we can use that as a diagnostic diagnostic tool because like what’s the opposite? Like when we are walking with the spirit, the fruit of the spirit in our is in our lives, you’ve got a group of people and they are all doing that, then there is this beautiful unity, like what what we’re called to in the church.

and and you mentioned therapy. I think I remember when I was a kid, I didn’t feel the freedom that I could just do that, you know, even though I probably needed to. But there was this stigma associated with it. And I I do believe that has flipped. And what’s so interesting about that is I was just listening to an episode by Shanti Feldhahn.

Where she’s talking with the psychologist. about, in in times past, when there was a conflict or trouble in relationships, you would draw from a whole pool of people, you know, like family units or friends, and and there would be

conversations and and you would have like mediation and and and maybe in the the other side of the world that’s still true you know because they they see themselves much more as a collectivist culture where we’re so hyper individualistic here and then add to that we’ve got social media which I I have this theory I don’t know I haven’t I haven’t heard anyone else say this so I think that when when we introduced phones

Where we have direct access to people, we we reshuffled the way that we see ourselves, you know. Like w I I used to see my friends as they lived in a house with their family. Right. I mean, I when my friend would call me, they would call the Barry house and my mom would answer, and hi, Mrs. Barry, can I talk to Shannon? Where there was like this structure, you saw people, whereas now we have we have immediate access to one another and it rechanges the way that we see ourselves fitting into groups and we see ourselves.

As hyper individualized, you know, and like if you’ve watched

Erica Wiggenhorn (15:49) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (15:50) The Social Dilemma, our phones are reinforcing our biases. And so in the same household,

Erica Wiggenhorn (15:56) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (15:57) that documentary shows how the various individuals are being separated based on the biases that are being reinforced. And

Erica Wiggenhorn (16:07) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (16:07) almost like there’s a a play to selfishness. And so, but back to the idea of therapy, what they were saying in this episode was

The therapist is not he’s not committed to that family unit, where there may be conflict between various people, but his obligation, it’s sort of like a an attorney representing a client, his obligation is to the person sitting in front of him. And that person is in pain. And so to deal with that pain, it does make sense to just cut all the ties. Now, that may not be better for the other people, and it may not be better for this person if you look at it from the wider, more collective perspective.

position, but he is only obligated to treat this person in front of him. And so this has created a lot of, you know, and I’m I’m not saying I’m against therapy. I’m totally not. I think

Erica Wiggenhorn (16:56) Right, right.

Shannon Popkin (16:57) it’s great. And I have so benefited. We s have seen a biblical counselor who really helped with our reconciliation.

I think counseling is great. I think it’s good for us to work on our internal things, you know, that’s that’s wonderful. But we’re we’re dealing with an outcome of us just working internally, do doing what’s good for me, putting up the boundaries that are helpful for me. and we’re we’re losing something here. We’re losing generational ties. We’re losing the influence of those who would

Say, no, I disagree with you, but I still love you. We’re in we’re

Erica Wiggenhorn (17:33) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (17:35) losing the influence spiritually. here’s what the Bible says. Can I call you back

to this? We’re we’re losing a lot

Erica Wiggenhorn (17:41) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (17:43) in this, this and and I read in your notes somewhere where you were talking about this generation. I don’t know if it’s Gen Z, but very lonely because if you don’t affirm it, something about that, can you can you restate that?

Erica Wiggenhorn (17:56) Yeah.

in Gen Z, you know, there’s this this idea that if you don’t if you don’t support me unconditionally and you don’t affirm all of my choices, then you’re now toxic, right? You’re you’re

Shannon Popkin (18:08) Mm-hmm.

Erica Wiggenhorn (18:08) against me. And I and I I heard so much of what you were saying in there. And I think, you know, one of the things we talk about in loving your wayward child is the gospel message proves God’s desire for connection.

Right? The gospel message is about a God who is chasing us down and pursuing us in all of our god awful mess, right? He doesn’t wait

Shannon Popkin (18:32) Yes.

Erica Wiggenhorn (18:33) for us to stop being toxic, right? He’s he

Shannon Popkin (18:36) Yeah.

Erica Wiggenhorn (18:36) made the first bid for connection with humanity. and we

Shannon Popkin (18:40) Mm.

Erica Wiggenhorn (18:41) see that all the way back to you know, Adam and Eve. The very first thing that God did after Adam and Eve fell was what did he do?

Shannon Popkin (18:50) Yeah.

Erica Wiggenhorn (18:51) He made a bid for connection with.

he went and sought them out. Where are you? Right. He didn’t ask the question because he didn’t know. He asked the question because he’s trying to get them to think, yeah, where am I? I’m supposed to be with God. I’m supposed to be connected to God. and then he covered them. He made a way for that connection, that reconciliation to happen. And so the problem with therapy becomes if the outcome, the outcome of therapy ought to be.

How can I still have an established connection with this other person in a healthier and more holistic way than I have in

Shannon Popkin (19:34) Right.

Erica Wiggenhorn (19:35) the past? How can I, how can I re-establish that connection? That should be the goal of Christian therapy, of biblical therapy, not how do I communicate my desire to cut this person out?

Because the gospel,

Shannon Popkin (19:49) Yeah.

Erica Wiggenhorn (19:50) the message of God, the message of Jesus is reconciliation and figuring

Shannon Popkin (19:56) Mm.

Erica Wiggenhorn (19:56) out how to do that through the power of the Holy Spirit. Therapy is going to help us understand what’s wrong, and therapy is going to help us understand maybe why we react the way that we do.

Shannon Popkin (20:09) Sure.

Erica Wiggenhorn (20:11) But the Holy Spirit, the counselor of counselors, is going

Shannon Popkin (20:16) Yes.

Erica Wiggenhorn (20:17) to empower us.

To take new and different steps forward. And that’s

Shannon Popkin (20:21) Mm, yes.

Erica Wiggenhorn (20:22) where therapy ends. Therapy is great information, but true transformation is going to come through God. And that’s

why

Shannon Popkin (20:31) Mm.

Erica Wiggenhorn (20:32) in loving your wayward child, we talk about the messages of therapy, but we stand on the promises of God because that’s where the power

Shannon Popkin (20:41) That’s

Erica Wiggenhorn (20:42) for change comes.

Shannon Popkin (20:43) that’s so good. And I mean, you’re talking what how did you put it? God’s bid for connection, right? And

Erica Wiggenhorn (20:49) Connection. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (20:51) that’s what that’s what we see in this story of Luke 15. Like what the father is longing for is to be reconnected with his son, who is a wayward child. and and what I found as I was reading this this morning, Erica, what I was was kind of taken with is like

The problem starts with there are these tax collectors that Jesus wants to to sit with and eat with. And the Pharisees are grumbling about that. This man receives the sinners and eats with them. And so Jesus equates, who are these sinners? He equates them with the lost. And he tells three stories of lostness. And and so he he starts with a lost sheep, and then he he talks about a lost coin, and then he talks about a lost son. But in all of these, there’s such a

value that is placed on whatever is lost. Like to the extent that when it when you find it again, when it’s when it’s it’s gone and you receive it back, is like there’s this great rejoicing. And one of my favorite parts is like where after the lost coin it says just just so as I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents. So one lost one. And and what I love is there’s joy before the angels. And so who

Is having the joy. I think it’s Charles Spurgeon who says it’s God who has the joy. It’s God who’s dancing and throwing the party. He is so excited when the lost comes, when there is this reconciliation. That is his heart, like you mentioned from the beginning with the first instance of sin. God’s heart is that there

Erica Wiggenhorn (22:24) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (22:25) would be a way back, that there would be a a reconciliation. And so so let’s talk about this story

what I think is interesting is the first two stories, he did go after something. He went after the sheep. He went searching for the coin. But in the third and in those first two are like amoral situations, you know, we can’t there is no sin of the sheep or the coin or whatever. But but in the third story, and maybe I can just summarize it, we have a father whose son asks for his share of the inheritance early, which is again unthinkable in this culture

he wants his inheritance early. He’s basically saying, I wish you were dead. Please give me my money. He goes off and he squanders it. We find out later from the older son that he like is sleeping with prostitutes. You know, he’s living he’s living a very ungodly lifestyle. The money runs out.

He gets a job feeding pigs, which pigs are abhorrent to there, you know, those that is unclean

Erica Wiggenhorn (23:17) Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (23:19) food. And so, and now he wants to eat the food of the pigs. He’s starving. I forgot to say there’s a famine in the land. and he’s run out of money, he’s run out of food, and he comes to himself and he realizes, like, my goodness, the servants in my father’s household never go without food. And so he decides, I’m gonna go back to my father and I’m gonna say,

I don’t even deserve to be your son. Please just welcome me as the servant. let’s just stop it right there because there is this period of time that goes by. And I think that’s where a lot of your readers, you know, of this book are gonna be, and where a lot of us

Erica Wiggenhorn (23:54) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (23:57) live for a very long time is there is this separation caused by sin. There is this

brokenness of relationship. There is

Erica Wiggenhorn (24:05) Yeah, mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (24:06) a longing. And yes, we do see what’s pent up in the father’s heart. We see that at the at the end of the story. But I think what feels a lot more natural and a lot more maybe, you know, justified is the reaction of the the Pharisees at the beginning of the story where they they’re like, these pe you know, Jesus, Jesus is eating with them. They’re like, we want nothing to do with them.

Erica Wiggenhorn (24:33) Right. Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (24:33) And

a lot of the women that I encounter who and and I have a lot of friends who are going through this right now. And

Erica Wiggenhorn (24:41) Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (24:42) I talk with a lot of people after I speak because I I have shared many, many times the story of my son and how there has been reconciliation, but I’ll without fail, every single time I have women who who come and tell me their story. And what I see

in their faces is like this deep indignation and

Erica Wiggenhorn (25:03) Mm.

Shannon Popkin (25:04) there’s there’s this grief, you know, and there’s almost like a warning for them. Like, you know, they’ll say things like, I mean, my mom wasn’t perfect either, but I didn’t I never completely cut her out of my life or my my dad,

Erica Wiggenhorn (25:17) Mm.

Shannon Popkin (25:18) you know, whatever. They’ll they’re telling their story and they’re they’re angry, they’re frustrated, they’re hurt, they feel dishonored, they feel judged.

Erica Wiggenhorn (25:24) Sure. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (25:29) and they they want things to be righted. and and a lot of it has to do with how other people are perceiving the situation, right? and

Erica Wiggenhorn (25:38) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (25:39) so it’s like they want to tell their side of the story, you know. They they don’t want others

Erica Wiggenhorn (25:42) Sure. Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (25:44) siding with this person who has separated themselves or who is this way, you know. Anyway, there’s just so much righteous indignation in our hearts, which

I think what that produces is contempt. Right? And and that’s what I

Erica Wiggenhorn (25:58) Mm, mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (25:59) see in these Pharisees. They just have contempt for these sinners. They’re they’re there’s they’re so they’re like disgusted with them. They’re disgusted that anybody would sit and eat with them. Because in the Middle East, when you eat, you put your hands in the same bowl. It’s like a very communal thing. You know, it’s like eating

Erica Wiggenhorn (26:13) Mm. Sure. Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (26:16) off of somebody else’s plate. You don’t do that with just anybody. And so like, why would

Erica Wiggenhorn (26:19) Right.

Shannon Popkin (26:19) you have community? And so

I I find it interesting that Jesus talks about the value, like this thing of great worth, right? And and so how

Erica Wiggenhorn (26:29) Mm, mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (26:30) does that reframe, looking at your wayward child of putting them in the same category with something that you’ve lost that’s very, very valuable.

Erica Wiggenhorn (26:40) Mm. Well, I think every mother’s heart, you know, there

holds their child in deep value, right? And holds

Shannon Popkin (26:50) Of course.

Erica Wiggenhorn (26:51) their holds the concept of their their dream for their family and and connection in their family of great value. And of course in Christian community, you know, especially in a lot of Christian communities,

As a woman, how your family functions has very much culturally in Christian communities become a barometer of our worth, right? If we have a broken

Shannon Popkin (27:19) Yeah, yeah.

Erica Wiggenhorn (27:20) family, then we must be a bad mom, right?

Shannon Popkin (27:23) Mm-hmm.

Erica Wiggenhorn (27:24) and we internalize that that perception, that judgment, so much shame. And I think,

Shannon Popkin (27:26) So much shame, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Erica Wiggenhorn (27:30) you know, you talked about the righteous indignation and you talked about the anger. And I think one of the things that we have to keep in mind is that, you know, when you have a wayward child,

what you’re really doing is navigating the road of grief. Because it’s the death of a dream. It’s the death of a

Shannon Popkin (27:48) It is.

Erica Wiggenhorn (27:49) relationship. it’s the death of a dream of how you imagined your family would be, how you imagined your relationship with your children would be as they grew up and got married and moved out or, you know, went off to college or, you know, whatever, even as a late teen still living in your home. You we as moms, we don’t

ever expect, you know, when we’re rocking

Shannon Popkin (28:12) Right.

Erica Wiggenhorn (28:13) our our baby that one day this person is going to despise us, right? that’s not it, that’s not ever on our radar.

Shannon Popkin (28:18) Right. No.

Erica Wiggenhorn (28:21) And there’s no there’s no spot in our in our brain to to be able to wrap our minds around that. And so I think understanding and we talk about this this grief process in loving your way with child, understanding that you are going through grief.

And giving

Shannon Popkin (28:40) Mm-hmm.

Erica Wiggenhorn (28:40) yourself permission to grieve and create space to deal with all of these emotions, whether

it

Shannon Popkin (28:49) Mm-hmm.

Erica Wiggenhorn (28:49) is anger or resentment or those are grief, those are grief emotions. And so

Shannon Popkin (28:58) Well and

and those are appropriate emotions. Like

Erica Wiggenhorn (29:02) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (29:02) gr the gr to the extent that it’s grieving, because like in these three stories, it’s something valuable that’s lost. And it it would be inappropriate to say, well. Or or to not, you know, to not want it back. Or, you know, to not be like frustrated and hurt, right? Those would be inappropriate.

Erica Wiggenhorn (29:18) Sure.

Shannon Popkin (29:19) I think what’s interesting is that in the first two instances, he does go after that thing that is lost. But in the second one, the father doesn’t. He, you know, the son leaves and there is loss of relationship, but the way he tells the story is there is a period of time that goes by. And and I think it’s it’s within that waiting period.

That we have to decide, are we gonna focus on the the lost value? You know, this thing that is so valuable? this this person, this child who is

Erica Wiggenhorn (29:54) Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (29:55) so valuable. Are we gonna like have hearts that cry out to God for in grief and in loss? Or are we gonna

Erica Wiggenhorn (30:02) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (30:03) let that kind of poison us with bitterness and anger, anger because

Because this valuable person was to produce valuable gain for us. Like we were supposed to have

Erica Wiggenhorn (30:12) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (30:13) a perfect family. We were supposed to be together in family pictures. We were supposed to be the admiration of all of our neighbors and friends. And that there is this loss. And we can, I think we can focus on

Erica Wiggenhorn (30:23) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (30:25) like our there’s this this inward selfish sort of focus

Erica Wiggenhorn (30:29) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (30:30) where we just don’t see that in the the father of the prodigal.

Erica Wiggenhorn (30:33) I

think I think Jesus gives us the key to be able right in the middle of the parable to be able to move past it. And it and it’s right there in the son’s words.

And in the ESV, I love how it’s worded, the sun says, I have sinned against heaven.

And before you. And that’s powerful because the son never says to the to the earthly father, if you will, right? In the earthly scenario, I sinned against you.

Shannon Popkin (31:14) Mm.

Erica Wiggenhorn (31:16) He sinned against heaven. He sinned against God, but before you. And so this these choices that the child

Shannon Popkin (31:26) Mm.

Erica Wiggenhorn (31:26) is making, the choices that the son made, is not necessarily a sin against the parent. It’s a sin against God, but it’s lived out before the parent, and the consequences of the sin become spilled over onto the parent.

Shannon Popkin (31:45) Yes. Before you in every way, every direction you look. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Erica Wiggenhorn (31:47) And everyone else, right? Which is part of the icky of it, right? Everybody else gets

a a view into the the choices that your child made. but we but when we can make that un that separation,

Shannon Popkin (32:01) Yeah.

Erica Wiggenhorn (32:03) right, this is between them and God.

Shannon Popkin (32:06) It is. Mm-hmm.

Erica Wiggenhorn (32:07) And when they get right with God, they’ll get right with us, right?

Shannon Popkin (32:11) Yes,

that is so true, Erica. Because back to your original point is like sin cr sin is at the heart of this separation. And sin is always against God. You know, we we do sin against one another because we too have value. But David said, Before you and you only have I sinned when he committed adultery. I mean, Uriah, like I mean, you know, he was hurt by that very

fatally. So exactly. But but I think.

Erica Wiggenhorn (32:33) Yeah, it doesn’t mean that we don’t feel the pain, right? We feel the pain.

Shannon Popkin (32:39) Yeah,

Erica Wiggenhorn (32:39) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (32:39) but when we when we frame it this way, like before you, I have sinned against heaven and before you, I think that that helps us to maintain the the loss, the grieving, the lost posture versus the anger and righteous indignation over my personal loss. Right. And I think that is when

You know, when we hold on to our own anger and frustration, like I never would have done this. I never have, I never would, I never could, like this contempt, the contempt always separates, it always puts me like I’m I’m looking down on you. You know, it’s like the finger of judgment always points down. And contempt also kind of elevates us, right? There’s this, I never have this disgust. And and I think there’s value when we’re in that waiting period.

To look at the father, right? And to look at it because what is so surprising? What’s the great like what would have surprised the audience of this story? what is the great surprise?

Erica Wiggenhorn (33:48) Yeah, I think the great surprise is the father had

Shannon Popkin (33:49) Yeah.

Erica Wiggenhorn (33:50) every right to have righteous in indignation towards the

Shannon Popkin (33:53) Exactly.

Erica Wiggenhorn (33:55) You know, what we see in the story, you know, it tells us when the sun was still a long way off.

Well, let’s just let’s just imagine that in our mind’s eye. If the father noticed the son returning from a long way off, what was the father doing? Right?

Shannon Popkin (34:12) Yeah, yeah.

Erica Wiggenhorn (34:13) He’s watching, he’s waiting. He is he is standing there in the middle of his field or his estate or his vineyard or whatever, right? He’s standing there in hopeful expectation and anticipation of the son’s

Shannon Popkin (34:30) Yeah.

Erica Wiggenhorn (34:31) return.

Shannon Popkin (34:32) Yeah.

Erica Wiggenhorn (34:32) His

greatest desire is this reconciliation, right? And then, you know, and then what does he do when he sees the sun coming from a long way off? He doesn’t stand back and fold his arms and say, Well, I’m gonna give him time to get back up here and figure out all the things he did wrong and make sure

Shannon Popkin (34:54) Yeah.

Erica Wiggenhorn (34:55) he’s got a nice forgiveness speech prepared for me, right?

Shannon Popkin (34:58) Mm,

mm.

Erica Wiggenhorn (34:59) What does

he do? He lifts up his robes and he goes running out to meet the sun. And this is so beautiful to me because in the ancient Near East, dignified men like we’re reading about here in Luke 15, they didn’t hike up their robes and run. And what the what the Father is doing in this in this picture that Jesus is painting in this parable is he is he is

Literally in his culture, just making a fool of himself. He’s

Shannon Popkin (35:32) Yeah.

Erica Wiggenhorn (35:33) behaving in a way that other people would be like, What in the world is this guy doing? He is so inappropriate right now. But he doesn’t

Shannon Popkin (35:41) Yeah.

Erica Wiggenhorn (35:41) care because all he cares about is this moment of reunification and reconciliation with his son. And so,

Shannon Popkin (35:49) Mm-hmm.

Erica Wiggenhorn (35:49) as much as we call it the prodigal son, the really this story should be the prodigal God, the prodigal father, because it’s a picture.

Shannon Popkin (35:55) Mm, right. Or

the merciful father, right? His yeah, yeah.

Erica Wiggenhorn (35:58) of yeah it it’s a picture

of God running towards us and and in an unconventional way and in a and what is Jesus saying right you you don’t recognize me because you expect me to act like this dignified father that you know crosses all these I’s and dotted dots all these T’s and you know

Shannon Popkin (36:21) Mm-hmm.

Erica Wiggenhorn (36:22) but I I’m the God who who is come and is

lifted up my robes and running as fast as I can to the lost to to welcome them home. And so

Shannon Popkin (36:34) Mm-hmm.

Erica Wiggenhorn (36:37) again, like what we were talking about earlier, God doesn’t wait for us to get our act together to come pursue us. And as parents, I think one

of the things we need to think about is, you know, if we’re gonna just sit back and wait for them, you know, wait and wait and wait, what are we doing while we’re waiting?

‘Cause I don’t think the father

Shannon Popkin (36:57) Yeah.

Erica Wiggenhorn (36:57) was just like, forget about him and going about his daily business. I think I think as Jesus is telling this story, he’s making a point, like the the father was actively waiting.

so that’s that’s the great surprise. But I think the even greater surprise is that when we read this story, you know, it’s Luke 15 and these three things of loss are really juxtaposed.

Against Luke 14, where Jesus is telling the story of the great banquet, and he’s saying, like, you know, I sent out the invites for the people to come,

Shannon Popkin (37:37) Yeah.

Erica Wiggenhorn (37:38) and they gave me all sorts of ridiculous and frankly rude reasons why they can’t. And so

Shannon Popkin (37:44) Mm.

Erica Wiggenhorn (37:45) I’ve sent out my servants.

you know, to the highways, to the byways, to the lost ones, to the rejected ones, to the despised

Shannon Popkin (37:51) Right. Yeah.

Erica Wiggenhorn (37:53) ones, the ones who would never be worthy of an invite to my banquet. I sent my servants out to go gather those people and to bring them in. And so he he tells this story, and then he moves us into these stories to understand what that looks like. And

Shannon Popkin (38:11) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Erica Wiggenhorn (38:15) You know, you talk about the value, and I think the point, why is this one last? And why is this one the one of the greatest value? Because Jesus is saying, like, I’m gonna continue to seek and pursue and go after and invite from the smallest of value to the greatest of value. And

Shannon Popkin (38:39) Mm.

Erica Wiggenhorn (38:40) as a mom who’s holding the chair.

Shannon Popkin (38:43) Mm-hmm.

Erica Wiggenhorn (38:44) Waiting

for my son to step into that banquet hall with Jesus, right? That gives me great hope because

Shannon Popkin (38:49) Mm-hmm, mm hmm. Yeah.

Erica Wiggenhorn (38:53) Jesus is gonna continue to pursue and to pursue and to pursue until the banquet hall is full. And and

Shannon Popkin (39:01) Yes.

Erica Wiggenhorn (39:02) that that keeps me

Shannon Popkin (39:04) It’s beautiful.

Erica Wiggenhorn (39:05) on my face praying. Like I’m holding this chair, believing that.

The prodigal father is watching and working and waiting and seeking, actively

Shannon Popkin (39:14) Yes. Mm-hmm.

Erica Wiggenhorn (39:17) waiting in pursuit of my son’s return

Shannon Popkin (39:19) Mm-hmm going to the

Erica Wiggenhorn (39:20) home.

Shannon Popkin (39:21) going to the highways and byways. I love putting those together. That’s so, so powerful. And it helps me to maintain that posture of longing. Like, yes, loss, but also longing for what is what could be, what is very possible. Like in this story, the difference in the third story is that there is a turning.

there is a there is a son, he’s turning repenting And that’s what’s happening in this sun. And and it wouldn’t have hap wouldn’t be reconciliation.

without that turning. and

Erica Wiggenhorn (39:54) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (39:56) so and that’s not anything that we can produce. Like I I I kind of find something instructive in the fact that the father doesn’t go chasing him down. but

Erica Wiggenhorn (40:04) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (40:06) he also is watching and waiting. And so like what is pent up in his heart there?

I think, you know, the one whose righteous indignation and burning with frustration and like mad about w his own loss.

would be like stomping through those neighborhoods. Where is my son? I can’t believe you. What are you doing? You know,

Erica Wiggenhorn (40:23) Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (40:25) like, do you know how much you’re sin in sin? Do you know how much you’ve cost this family? Do you know what you’re, you know, d those sorts of attitudes. But instead,

Erica Wiggenhorn (40:30) Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (40:33) there is there is a waiting on that turning of repentance. And you know, we’re we’re not like wind up bunnies. Like we don’t we we

Erica Wiggenhorn (40:42) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (40:42) have our own choices. We have agency. And the Lord

Erica Wiggenhorn (40:45) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (40:46) waits on us with open arms.

Erica Wiggenhorn (40:48) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (40:49) But it’s not just with like you said, that folded arm demeanor of like, fine then, I’m just gonna watch and you know, no, he’s running. He I just love

Erica Wiggenhorn (40:56) Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Shannon Popkin (40:58) the picture of the father running. What’s pent up in his heart, what he longs to give is mercy.

Erica Wiggenhorn (41:04) are some

of the you know, what are some of the other little little tidbits that Jesus added in there in this waiting period that I think are so beautiful? I mean, Jesus tells us like there was a famine in the land.

You know, think about his first century audience, right? They saw things like famine and storms and withholding of rain and all these things. They saw those as divine acts

Shannon Popkin (41:32) Yes.

Erica Wiggenhorn (41:33) that held great purpose. So

Shannon Popkin (41:35) Mm-hmm.

Erica Wiggenhorn (41:36) what is what is Jesus telling us? You have a father, you have an earthly father who, of course, in the parable represents God, but in in an earthly sense, right? You have an earthly father.

who’s watching and looking and waiting for anticipation of their child’s return.

And there just so happened to be a famine in the land, right? What is the point, right? The point is

Shannon Popkin (41:58) Right, yes. No, I do see that. Yeah. Yeah. Mhm.

Erica Wiggenhorn (42:01) that this father realizes that in the wait and behind the scenes, there is a supernatural God who

Shannon Popkin (42:13) Mm-hmm.

Erica Wiggenhorn (42:13) is working things out in the heavenlies in his child story that he has yet to see with earthly eyes.

Shannon Popkin (42:21) Well, and what a what a grace and what a mercy that the prodigal doesn’t just get to feast and enjoy, you know, surplus, right? That’s that’s such a

Erica Wiggenhorn (42:29) Right? Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (42:31) grace. And it it and it when I look at the whole world, it’s such a grace that the world has built in consequences. So when you ch when you choose to sin, you do suffer. Choose to sin, choose to suffer, right? That’s such a grace to us. Cause like, what would the world be if, you know, like

The more you overspent, the more rich you became, right? Or if you, if

Erica Wiggenhorn (42:51) Right, right.

Shannon Popkin (42:51) you did drugs, you know, you’d become even more healthy or wise or whatever. You know, like it’s there when you go against the grain of the way that the world is set up, you’re gonna get splinters and it’s gonna hurt. And you’re going to hope you’re gonna have more opportunity to come to yourself. And I think in the waiting, yeah, recognizing that the Lord.

Is working beyond behind the scenes and he has so much more power than you could ever imagine. And he has so much more, so many more creative designs, ways for people to turn. I remember just praying recently for someone that I’m just praying that God would work in their life, and I don’t see it happening. And I I pray a leaf just happened to flutter.

Down beside me, and I’m like, Lord, you can use a leaf if you want. Like you can

Erica Wiggenhorn (43:43) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (43:43) use a random leaf floating through the sky to cause, I don’t know. You have so many creative ways to get our attention, so many splinters that you can put in our life as we’re going against and and and again, what a grace that he set up the world so that there are built-in consequences for sin. And

Erica Wiggenhorn (44:01) Sure.

Shannon Popkin (44:02) and that there is like, I think the division in relationship. What if, like,

Things were always happy and fine, the more sinful we got. Like that, that it there wouldn’t be the deterrent that there is. And so rather than trying to just get rid of all of those consequences or collapse them or act like there’s nothing wrong, what if we were like that father in the story and just waited, right? And live like it’s true, that our God is working, that He loves every prodigal, that He has a banquet, He is holding the chair.

And he is with you in this longing for something lost to be found. I mean, wouldn’t that be just truth to melt our hearts? So how if you had to had

Erica Wiggenhorn (44:45) Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (44:46) to encapsulate it, how can we live like the story of the prodigal is true?

Erica Wiggenhorn (44:51) yeah. Well, as a mom with a wayward child, one of the ways that that I can live like it’s true is that when I see my child suffering consequences for their choices, you know, my my mother’s heart, my my instinct is I want to go in and rescue. And what we see in this story is that you know God was using those difficulties to reach that son

And we’re going to watch our child probably have to suffer some consequences when they are rebelling against God and they’re making choices that go completely against God’s God’s ways. but even in that, even in those consequences, God is working in their lives. And you know, we talk about like the story of Esther, right? And how God is never mentioned, but yet there’s this move of God and this protection

Shannon Popkin (45:44) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Erica Wiggenhorn (45:46) of God and this hand of God.

Over his people throughout the whole thing. And I think that that’s that’s what Jesus is alerting us to here in this famine. And then you know, the son’s life just devolves. And and there is a move of God in every prodigal’s life. You know, God hasn’t just you know gone about his business over here, he’s standing there watching and waiting, right? Like he said to Jeremiah.

behold, I’m I’m watching for my word and I’m waiting to perform it. God is always working, chasing after the unrepentant heart and the prodigal and and orchestrating circumstances in order to reach their life. And so that gives me freedom. I don’t have to be the one to orchestrate the circumstances. I don’t have to get

Shannon Popkin (46:38) Yes.

Erica Wiggenhorn (46:39) my hands in here and manipulate all the things. But what I

Shannon Popkin (46:42) Yeah, yeah.

Erica Wiggenhorn (46:43) do have to do

Is exactly like what the Father does in this story is to watch and to wait. And how do I do that? By watch and I wait, by keeping my eyes fixed on the Lord and praying for my child and letting God deal with my righteous indignation, letting God

Shannon Popkin (46:59) Mm-hmm.

Erica Wiggenhorn (46:59) heal the grief that is in my heart. And trusting, trusting that the metanoia of the Son will come about in God’s time.

And there’s a purpose behind the time. Eventually, the son had a metanoia. He came to himself, it says, but what what the Greek is really saying is a change of mind. And he changed

Shannon Popkin (47:26) Mm-hmm.

Erica Wiggenhorn (47:26) his mind to say, I can live on my own and I can do whatever I want. And I only live once and I’m gonna live it up and I’m gonna take grab every good thing that you know the world has for me. And he changed his mind and he realized.

No, what the world has to offer is actually leaving me penniless and broken and starving and hungry. What am I doing? I would be better off in in my father’s house.

Shannon Popkin (47:46) Mm, yes, yes, mm-hmm.

Erica Wiggenhorn (47:56) and so it allows us to release our child in faith and it’ll and it compels us to keep our eyes fixed on God and say, I can’t see all the things that you’re doing.

I can’t understand all the ways that you’re working, but I trust that you are working and show me today while I’m standing here watching and waiting in hopeful expectation how you want to work in me today. So that

Shannon Popkin (48:23) Mm-hmm.

Erica Wiggenhorn (48:24) when that child turns back and comes home, I’m ready.

Shannon Popkin (48:29) Amen. Amen. Live like it’s true. God’s at work. He’s a merciful God. So thank you, Erica. So

Erica Wiggenhorn (48:34) It’s true. That’s right. That’s right. Amen. Yes.

Shannon Popkin (48:39) how can we find this brand new book? Loving your wayward child, a Christian guide to stand in faith and build connection when their choices break your heart.

Erica Wiggenhorn (48:49) Yeah. you can find it at any bookseller, any of your favorite booksellers. you can go on my own website. it’s just get erika’sbook.com. and my name is spelled with a C, get Erica’s Book dot com, and you’ll find

Shannon Popkin (49:04) wow. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Erica Wiggenhorn (49:08) all about loving your wayward child right there. and then the other thing I really want to share too, just super quickly, Shannon, is

I think one of the biggest struggles in this whole situation, and you mentioned it, and I know you talk about it and kind of judgy, is just this idea that other people are judging you and you feel alone and the heaviness of that judgment. And so one of the things that the Lord has really compelled me to do is to put together a conference for moms that are walking through this season of having a wayward child, and we’re calling it Momentum.

Shannon Popkin (49:45) I love it.

Erica Wiggenhorn (49:45) moving moms,

moving moms closer to Christ so families can move closer together. But it’s happening out in Phoenix area where I live, January 29th through 31st. And it’s really

Shannon Popkin (49:57) Love it.

Erica Wiggenhorn (49:58) we’re we’re gonna walk through the promises and the steps towards healing of in loving your wayward child together at this conference and learn to

really release our children into the almighty hands of the good father who is at work in their lives and become a little freer for God to work in us. And so if you’re out there listening and you’re like, man, this is my story and I feel so judged, I feel so alone, I feel so broken, read kind of judgy. It’s definitely gonna help your heart and grab

a copy of Loving Your Wayward Child.

But if you just really want to find your people and you just really want to find a safe place, maybe to unload some of that righteous indignation, you’re like, you know what, that’s me. I am so full of contempt and I hate it. join us for a momentum. We would love to have you there.

Shannon Popkin (50:51) So good. Are people going to be flying then in? Do you feel like it’s not just a local event? Like people are coming, I imagine. Yeah. Like that’s.

Erica Wiggenhorn (50:56) Yeah, yeah, we have people coming

so far from 21 different states, so from all over the place. so absolutely, yeah, it’s not far from Sky Harbor Airport in Phoenix, and you can definitely get a ride

Shannon Popkin (51:02) That’s awesome. I love it. Yeah, that’s great. Okay, wonderful.

Erica Wiggenhorn (51:11) share for pretty cheap. So yeah, come, come, come from the highways and byways. Yeah. Yes, thank you.

Shannon Popkin (51:14) Fabulous. I love it. Yes, that’s so great. Well, thank you again for your time with us, Erica. What a blessing.

Erica Wiggenhorn (51:24) Thank you.