Shannon Popkin (00:00) Jen Ashman, welcome back to Live Like It’s True. It’s so great to have you back.

Jen Oshman (00:02) Thanks.

Yes, we got more to talk about.

Shannon Popkin (00:05) we have so much more to talk about.

Jen is the author of a new book called Very Good: What the Bible Says About Being a Woman. She’s an author, a speaker, a wife and a mom. And I just so enjoyed our first conversation. You’re not gonna want to miss that because we really laid some foundations with Genesis and with like story and why why these concrete

Ideas are so important, you know, why our Bible isn’t just like abstract ideas. It’s it has concrete things in it. And so we started with the first one last time that you know, make sure you go back and listen to that one. It’s very foundational. The fact that we image God. But let’s go to a second one now, a second tangible way, a concrete part of our creation story that gives us some truth about how we’re

We’re to live the true story. and so the second one that I wanted to talk to you about is found in Genesis two, where God creates man out of the dust of the ground.

Jen Oshman (01:06) Mm.

Shannon Popkin (01:06) And and you talked in your book about how the creation story gives us like this bird’s eye view. But Genesis two, God comes near, like his very

Jen Oshman (01:15) Mm.

Shannon Popkin (01:16) breath enters Adam’s nostrils.

Jen Oshman (01:20) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (01:20) Genesis 2:7. Then the Lord God formed man out of the dust of the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being. So,

Jen Oshman (01:31) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (01:31) what is the significance of giving us this imagery of man

Jen Oshman (01:35) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (01:36) being formed out of the dirt? What is what do you see there?

Jen Oshman (01:40) I mean, I would imagine that we don’t even know the full significance of that. I would imagine maybe we’re gonna get more of the story when we get to ask the Lord himself. But there is this sense that the Lord is very hands-on. He’s like a potter, you know, forming and shaping the clay. By getting down and using the dirt and forming man in that way, we get the sense that God is not far off. You know, he’s not a statue in the sky with his arms folded, sort of looking down on us like

You know, try harder, you guys down there. You haven’t yet reached me, you haven’t climbed the mountain to reach me. No, we get a God who comes who comes down and who gets low and shapes us intricately in the details and in sort of an it’s artwork. You know, the Lord has put our bodies together. And then he breathes his life into the body, you know, making every body in that way holy and sacred and beautiful, the breath of God now.

is in every single life and will be passed on from Adam to every image bearer forever and ever. So it’s very artistic, intentionally artistic and poetic and beautiful, and just meant to for us to see like God’s hands are literally shaping us and forming us and very involved in the details of our lives.

Shannon Popkin (02:58) Hmm. I remember studying something about idols in the ancient

Jen Oshman (03:02) Mm.

Shannon Popkin (03:02) world and how like idols would image the actual God, you know, like they they weren’t seen as the God, but they would sort of image the God,

But this is the only time where the breath of this God enters his image bearer.

Jen Oshman (03:16) Yeah, huh.

Shannon Popkin (03:17) And there’s something l alive in us that is connected to our creator. And and I think that’s also like just

evidence that we we can’t live without him. Like we need his breath. Every breath that we take,

Jen Oshman (03:30) Yeah, yeah.

Shannon Popkin (03:32) we may feel like we’re in charge of those things, you know, whether you’ve got someone on life support or you know, there are

Jen Oshman (03:37) Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (03:38) there are different ways that we can manufacture life, but truly life is he is, he is the giver of life.

Jen Oshman (03:40) Yeah. He’s the giver of life. Mm hmm. Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (03:46) and I also I just love the fact that it is a personal a way that God is crafting Adam. So, like,

Jen Oshman (03:53) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (03:53) you know, in Genesis 1.

God is speaking things into life. And that’s beautiful

Jen Oshman (03:58) Uh-huh.

Shannon Popkin (03:58) too. Like it’s the power of his word. But this

Jen Oshman (04:00) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (04:01) is more personal. I mean, God has to

Jen Oshman (04:03) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (04:03) get close to breathe his life into Adam. I mean, he’s down in the dirt. Like you, I think you said that.

Jen Oshman (04:10) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (04:11) God is down in the dirt

Jen Oshman (04:13) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (04:14) with creating this, this man. There’s an and

Jen Oshman (04:17) Mm.

Shannon Popkin (04:18) I mean, I just see him doing the same thing when he’s forming the babies in our wombs, you know?

Jen Oshman (04:23) That’s right.

Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (04:25) And I mean, like I had three babies. I didn’t this was the Lord’s work inside of me designing.

Jen Oshman (04:30) Yeah, yeah.

Shannon Popkin (04:31) And He’s still creating, right? It is.

Jen Oshman (04:34) Beautiful. Yes. We have a

we have a tender and personal God.

Shannon Popkin (04:40) how do we live like that’s true?

Jen Oshman (04:42) you know, it relates back to the episode we recorded before in affording dignity to every human being. but I think what this story reminds me in particular is that that God is a craftsman, God is a potter, God is an artist. And so all the ways that he shaped me, everything from my blue eyes to my brown hair, to being tall, to be you know

all the physical things that he’s given me, but as well as when he determined when I would be born and where I would live and into what family and into what nation and have the education that I have. Like he purposely provided every single detail. Like he wrote that story, so that I would steward those things that belong to him, but he’s entrusted me with, so that I would steward them for his glory. So that people act seventeen says so that

we may seek God and find him. He’s given us

Shannon Popkin (05:37) Yes.

Jen Oshman (05:37) all of these things so we can seek him and find him. So when I wonder is this ability or this disability from God or not? You know, did God determine this hardship or this suffering or this diagnosis? Or did God determine this success or this victory? I can remember, yes, the Lord’s in the dirt in my life and he has shaped every single detail.

But it’s not for me to just sit on and just camp on and do with as I will. They were they’re these are all intended for a purpose, and it’s so that I and others may seek God and find him.

Shannon Popkin (06:12) Yeah, I love the story of John 9 where the disciples are like, is this guy blind because of his sin or his parents’ sin? And Jesus

Jen Oshman (06:17) Mm. So good.

Shannon Popkin (06:19) is like, No, it’s so that my glory might be displayed in his life. And then he puts

Jen Oshman (06:24) Such a good story.

Shannon Popkin (06:25) his hands in the dirt and makes this mud and puts it on the man’s eyes. And the man comes up from the water with new, new sight. And I mean, that’s that’s the recreation story that we’re all awaiting. You know, God is gonna make new.

what

is what is broken and lost and destroyed in this

Jen Oshman (06:43) Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (06:46) life. So okay, so we’ve got God putting his hands in the dirt with the man. But what

Jen Oshman (06:50) Mm.

Shannon Popkin (06:51) about what about the part with the woman?

Jen Oshman (06:53) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (06:54) and so like what significance is it that he made her like he didn’t put his hands back in the dirt to make the woman? Right? I

Jen Oshman (07:02) Mm, yes, yes.

Shannon Popkin (07:04) I I want to talk about that with you. So this part

Verse 21 of Genesis 2, so the Lord caused a deep sleep to come over the man and he slept. God took one of his ribs and closed the flesh at that place. then the Lord God made the rib he had taken from the man into a woman and brought her to the man. And the man said, this one at last is bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh. this one will be called woman. I love it. This one. For she was taken from man.

Jen Oshman (07:32) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (07:35) So there’s a lot there, a lot embedded

in this story, but what do you think is that significance that God uses a rib to fashion the woman out of?

Jen Oshman (07:44) Yeah, yeah. I mean a lot of ink again has been spilled on this. And so I think there’s a lot that we could wonder about for sure and just ponder and like, well, maybe it’s this, maybe it’s that. And I think I think we can extend probably based on the character of God, a lot of sort of generosity and flexibility and how we, you know, what we do with that. But I think at the very least there’s two truths that we can draw from this, at the very least. And one is that she is different.

Than Adam. She is distinct. male and female are not interchangeable. They are, he God said, It’s not good that Adam is alone. I’m going to make a female now. So she’s different than Adam. And yet, she’s made from the same substance as Adam. So the Lord causes Adam to fall asleep, and he pulls some of Adam’s substance out and creates her of the same stuff. And so there is this.

Obvious intrinsic fundamental equality. Like you guys are the same. You’re made out of the same things. You’re the same,

Shannon Popkin (08:48) That’s right.

Jen Oshman (08:49) and yet you’re different.

Shannon Popkin (08:51) Yes. Yeah. No, exactly. do you find any significance that he chose a rib to make her out of?

Jen Oshman (09:00) I like reading about that. I personally haven’t drawn any conclusions there. but I know there’s a lot of takes. Like what what do you think? What why do you think, Shannon?

Shannon Popkin (09:10) Me.

I mean, I love the parallel imagery of you know, here from the man, his wife is is born, you know, and then

Jen Oshman (09:19) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (09:20) when Christ’s side is pierced from this

Jen Oshman (09:22) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (09:23) one man, his bride is is born, you know, the church is born. I just I love that parallel imagery.

Jen Oshman (09:28) Yeah, yeah. That’s

Shannon Popkin (09:30) I find I find there to be

Something beautiful and compelling about this, that she

Jen Oshman (09:36) Yeah, for sure.

Shannon Popkin (09:38) is from him and then also brought to him. There’s a relational component there where,

Jen Oshman (09:41) Mm-hmm. That’s huge. Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (09:44) like, it says the Lord brought her to the man. I’m kind of like picturing a wedding aisle, you know, as he’s

Jen Oshman (09:51) Totally. It definitely is.

Shannon Popkin (09:53) awakened and you know, the Lord

Jen Oshman (09:55) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (09:56) is the father giving away this bride, and then the man is singing. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Jen Oshman (09:58) Mm-hmm. Yeah. That imagery is very clear. Yeah. Yeah. And

what Adam says is very poetic. I mean, like the reader or the listener should be like, wait a minute, the text totally changed here. This is

Shannon Popkin (10:11) Yeah.

Jen Oshman (10:11) a very different form of writing in verse 23. And it’s because, you know, Adam is saying this vow. He’s giving this, you know, I am covenanted to her now is essentially what he’s saying. Like we belong together. We are now unified. We’re one. And so

It is beautiful it is the first wedding. and

Shannon Popkin (10:29) It is.

Jen Oshman (10:30) and it does image you the last wedding in Revelation as well, as you said. So it

Shannon Popkin (10:34) Yeah, yeah.

Jen Oshman (10:35) is really beautiful that yeah, what Adam says to her is I hear a lot of sermons where it’s like kind of handled a little bit lightly and maybe a little bit funny, like Adam’s like, Wow, you know, and that’s true, but like it’s

Shannon Popkin (10:45) I know.

Jen Oshman (10:47) it’s bigger than that actually. It’s more sacred than that.

Shannon Popkin (10:50) I agree.

Jen Oshman (10:51) Adam is like, No, we I am c this is my people.

I am covenanted to her and we are partners. We’re gonna co-labor in the work

Shannon Popkin (10:55) Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jen Oshman (11:00) that the creator has given us.

Shannon Popkin (11:01) Well, and I love the fact that God put Adam to the task of, you know, naming the animals and he notices all these other pairings. And then

Jen Oshman (11:09) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (11:10) he notices that there isn’t one for him. And like that ache and like that not goodness of him being alone. And then

Jen Oshman (11:15) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (11:17) no, sh he’s not alone anymore. and

Jen Oshman (11:19) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (11:20) I mean, can you imagine being the sole human? None of us can exp

have experienced that, right? And so

Jen Oshman (11:25) Sure, sure.

Shannon Popkin (11:26) we don’t, you know, this isn’t to say that single men are, you know, they have to have a bride. Like I don’t think that it’s just more we are communal. We are meant to have to be in community as and we image God in that way. You know, we’re

Jen Oshman (11:40) That’s right.

Shannon Popkin (11:40) back to the verses that say, let us create man in our image. God is there’s a plurality of his nature. And so we

Jen Oshman (11:48) That’s right.

Shannon Popkin (11:48) are not intended to be alone, just isolated in aloneness.

Jen Oshman (11:51) Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (11:53) But I I too love the fact that, you know, Adam himself calls reference to the bone, right?

Jen Oshman (11:59) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (11:59) And that she was taken from. So he, it’s like, you know, that song could have been anything, but he’s singing about this. He thinks it’s cool. He sees

Jen Oshman (12:08) Yeah, yeah.

Shannon Popkin (12:10) significance in it. You know, if that’s the first thing that he’s saying is like, she’s made of the same substance than me. There’s the sameness

Jen Oshman (12:17) Mm.

Shannon Popkin (12:17) about us.

and of course he’s noticing the differences too. but

Jen Oshman (12:22) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (12:23) but she’s taken from him, and so he’s just enjoying like they’re they’re together, you know, they’re in this

Jen Oshman (12:30) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (12:31) this experience together. they’re they’re tied together in the same way like that parents and children, you know, like that love that you feel.

Jen Oshman (12:39) Mm-hmm,

Shannon Popkin (12:39) For this baby that came from you, you know, or

Jen Oshman (12:39) uh-huh. Uh-huh, uh-huh.

Shannon Popkin (12:44) that someone brought to you as an adoptive mom. You know what I mean? Like there’s

Jen Oshman (12:46) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (12:47) just this joy and delight. and so I see all of those things in like this is first family. Family is awesome. And it was God’s

Jen Oshman (12:54) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (12:56) it’s God’s design. And so, yeah. So I mean, I I think we live like this part is true.

as we celebrate the sameness of male and female, right? As we but also the distinction, you know, like

Jen Oshman (13:13) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (13:13) I think you made the point in the book. well, let’s go to that part next, like the distinction. And then maybe

Jen Oshman (13:20) Okay.

Shannon Popkin (13:20) we can talk more about how to how to live like that’s true.

you said something really interesting. I had never thought this way before, but you were talking about

What happens to the body happens to the soul. I’m on page 36 of your book. And what happens to the soul happens to the body. We know this is true because when we are physically ill, we feel discouraged. And when we are upset, our physical bodies also experience the toll. We are dust of the earth and the and the breath of God. So then the bodies that we live in, the very ones God gave us when we were firstborn, are inextricable from our souls, minds, and hearts.

and then you use that in the context of our physical selves are male and female. And and this is true about our spiritual selves too. I was like, whoa, Jen, I had not put that together.

Jen Oshman (14:08) Hmm.

Shannon Popkin (14:10) Like we are spiritually you know, my

Jen Oshman (14:13) Mm.

Shannon Popkin (14:13) answer to your question, how does knowing the bodies are inextricable from our souls impact how we view our femaleness? I’m like, I’m spiritually spiritually female. I never really

Jen Oshman (14:24) Hm.

Shannon Popkin (14:26) Thought about that before. Tell me, tell me more. Like, what were you thinking when you wrote that? Like, what’s why is that so important?

Jen Oshman (14:27) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, I think we really live in an age that says what happens to the body only happens to the body. Like there if you and I see this especially in women’s spaces, especially when it comes to the idea of my body, my choice. because the mantra surrounding and the narrative surrounding abortion is it won’t hurt you. you can make a physical choice and

move on and it will not impact you spiritually or emotionally. and that’s simply not true. And and that’s not the that place I see we see it glaringly, but I think we see it we compartmentalize, you know, our f our physical selves from our spiritual selves all the time and pronounce one better than the other or one more necessary than the other. And we rarely walk in the truth that no, these things actually can’t be torn apart. what happens to your soul happens to your body as well and vice versa. So I

I’m getting at the need to live as whole people, whole persons created in God’s image, and that you can’t actually dissect us. we are unified beings. And so in this age, when our sort of probably highest value in our cultural context is to be self-defined, like I’m gonna determine who I am, and then I’m gonna make that person happen. I’m gonna create that person.

And I’m gonna put that person out there and you have to respond. Like you have to treat me like the person I’ve said that I am. that is really doing the work of taking apart body, soul, mind, spirit, like that that’s disintegrating the whole. And it’s actually just not possible. Like you can say that and you can try that, and you can take medications and have procedures done and change pronouns and names and all the things to make that.

to convince yourself of that. But the reality is you’re a unified being and you can’t be disse dissected in that way. And so I think what I want the reader to see is that both male and female are so valuable and so dignified and beautiful. Even for those who don’t feel at home in their bodies. The truth is that’s the body the creator gave you. That is your home. And so there are there are ways, you know, with God’s help to feel more at home in your body. But don’t

Don’t do the work of wrecking it to try to feel more whole. that is that is actually you’re gonna work against yourself if you do that. So male and female are both good and they’re just distinct. They’re not you can’t trade one for the other. All the way through,

Shannon Popkin (17:07) Yes. You can’t.

Jen Oshman (17:10) I’m female, all the way through men are male.

Shannon Popkin (17:13) Yeah, no, that’s so good. You wrote our focus is understanding both good and not interchangeable, right? They’re distinct.

Jen Oshman (17:22) That’s right. That’s right.

Shannon Popkin (17:23) There’s a distinction in that.

we’re seeing that distinction in both parts of the creation story, like in chapter one and chapter two, like in the poetic

Jen Oshman (17:35) Mm.

Shannon Popkin (17:35) overview design where God is talking about his image, where he says, I’m gonna create him.

In the in my image, I’m going to create them, male and female. And so

Jen Oshman (17:45) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That’s right.

Shannon Popkin (17:48) this distinction, it is by God’s design. And again, I’m just going to call your attention to the episode I did with Kelly Needham. I think it was it’s the title is How to Bear God’s Image by Gender. It was so good. It was so helpful. just to talk about those distinctions of our gender, how they’re both are necessary to image God. And we got into, I think we talked about like the church and how.

having having having things so segmented male and female, like especially in our complementarian churches where it’s like there’s this distrust or division or whatever that I don’t that isn’t by God’s design. It’s like both are both are needed and necessary. You know, I forgot to say earlier when we were talking about Genesis one, I love the fact that you called to mind that the creation mandate it was given to both of them, you know?

Jen Oshman (18:36) That’s right, yes. Yeah, I mean that’s what’s so fascinating, I think, about Genesis in chapter one and chapter two is there’s very little that is unique to Adam and unique to Eve. I mean, obviously we’ve just gone through the creation stories, which is really true. But God placed them both in the garden. God said it wasn’t good that Adam was alone, and he gave this commission to both of them. And so what we see really is just this call to partner and to co-labor. Like you are both made in my image.

I’m sending you out to do this work together, to rule the earth together, to be fruitful

Shannon Popkin (19:07) Yeah. Yeah.

Jen Oshman (19:10) and multiply together. And I think we in this moment in the church, we have lost that narrative. when we’ve so hyper-fixated on, well, here’s what men can do, and here’s what women can do, and here’s what you can’t do. We have lost the plot of actually you’re called to do all of this work together. It’s not good for you to be alone.

Shannon Popkin (19:32) It’s

so true. preaching is, I think, distinct from men. I I believe that’s true. But yet I think even in the preaching, if you’re doing sermon prep to the exclusion of women, like women

Jen Oshman (19:43) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (19:43) are never part of the conversation of leading and shepherding

Jen Oshman (19:47) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (19:47) and teaching your church.

Jen Oshman (19:49) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (19:50) I mean, you know, that that could be a huge misstep. Cause like

Jen Oshman (19:54) I agree.

Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (19:55) those

who are in the seats in your room, like never considering or having a w a woman help, you know, consider how

Jen Oshman (20:03) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (20:03) that’s gonna how that’s gonna land. I just think that it’s really, really valuable because we are so different, right? And so

Jen Oshman (20:10) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (20:12) leading the church, teaching the church, shepherding the church. Like for instance, I I have a friend who was trying to disciple a woman and the woman’s husband

you know, there was there was some offense in their marriage, but the the men who were discipling the husband didn’t know about this. And so they’re giving them different counsel and and she couldn’t find a way for the the mentor of the wife to meet with the mentor of the husband. It’s like, no, we have to do this together. Like how

Jen Oshman (20:39) Yeah. Sure.

Shannon Popkin (20:41) how like they are one flesh. How can we divide them to to

give counsel? if we’re gonna

like counsel a couple. I just think it’s imperative that we have input from, you know, both both sides of the story. I just

Jen Oshman (20:56) Yeah, yeah. We have to be able

to hold both at the same time. Like they are distinct and they’re meant to co-labor. And we

Shannon Popkin (21:03) Yes.

Jen Oshman (21:03) just need we need to hold both. And so I think sometimes the conversation gets so heated that one or the other is highlighted, you know, and and drowns out the voice of the other. And it’s really like no, actually God did both of these things in creation. So how can we co labor but as distinct? You know,

Shannon Popkin (21:20) Yeah. Co labor, yes.

Jen Oshman (21:24) we have distinct roles.

But we co labor. Both have to be present.

Shannon Popkin (21:29) Yes, so true. So good. I’m sure this book is going to get into all of the ways that you know, the distinctions play out in the church and in the life of the body of Christ. So you’ll just have to read the book and get to all that. All right. Let’s let’s see if we can tackle one more though before it’s time to quit, if

Jen Oshman (21:35) Yes, it does. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That’s right. Okay.

Shannon Popkin (21:46) you don’t mind. so I I think it’s so intriguing that in the f the fall in Genesis three, after

Jen Oshman (21:53) Mm.

Shannon Popkin (21:53) the the woman is tempted.

She eats the fruit. you know, you you had us call to mind all of the different times that God made this commandment about the tree. you know, it’s like one, two, three, four, five times that we’re called to be reminded that God commanded, don’t eat of this tree. And Eve took the fruit, she ate it, she gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate it. and yet when God

calls

them to account, in the in the later latter part of that chapter, he he puts a lot of responsibility on the man, you know.

Jen Oshman (22:31) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (22:33) he says, Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree that I commanded you, do not eat from. The ground is cursed, the days of your life will produce thistles, you’ll eat bread. So it’s like all of the the curse goes to the ground, which is, you know, God’s

grace and mercy in his life. But then also, like he calls Adam first, like Adam, where are you?

Jen Oshman (22:59) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (22:59) I’m noticing that detail first that he calls the man first. He and and the woman has consequences too. It’s not to say that she doesn’t. But

Jen Oshman (23:06) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (23:07) then when we get to Romans, we’re told that it was

the man who brought sin

Jen Oshman (23:14) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (23:14) into the world, even though the woman ate first.

Jen Oshman (23:17) Mm.

Shannon Popkin (23:18) So what is that all about, Jim? Like that is just

Jen Oshman (23:20) Yeah, yeah.

Shannon Popkin (23:22) that’s really interesting, right?

Jen Oshman (23:24) It is so interesting. yeah. So if you if you take some time to really study chapter three, what you find is just the in the nuance of the text that that refrain to not eat from the tree is repeated to Adam. Adam is given this responsibility, don’t eat from this tree. And of course, Eve’s meant to help him obey that command. And she fails there, but it’s repeat Adam is the hearer or the recipient of that command the most.

Shannon Popkin (23:51) Yes. I

I love that exercise that you had us do. I hadn’t that was one of the things I had not noticed. I had noticed

Jen Oshman (23:55) Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (23:59) that God gave the instruction about the tree before she was created. You know, that’s interesting. But then I

Jen Oshman (24:02) Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (24:04) hadn’t noticed that as that is repeated, it’s only once

Jen Oshman (24:07) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (24:08) given to Eve and by the serpent, right? Mm-hmm.

Jen Oshman (24:10) Right, right. So

and then and and I think maybe for the listener who’s like, I kind of think you’re reading too much into that, we get confirmation

Shannon Popkin (24:17) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jen Oshman (24:18) of it in Romans chapter five in the New Testament, where we see Adam as the representative, the one who is responsible for all humanity. It’s through Adam’s seed that sin is passed on to generation after generation. And so it’s it’s a weighty truth, but the reality is Adam was given this command.

And because he failed, sin enters the world. but Romans five, of course, you know, go there. It’s such a joy-filled chapter because the the gift is greater than the trespass. The gift of grace through Christ is greater than the trespass of Adam. And so then we have this representation and responsibility of Christ for us. He represents us and he becomes responsible for us and he bears the punishment for Adam’s sin, our sin.

On our behalf, and because he represents us, then we can be reconciled to the Father. So while all of this feels like, whoa, kind of mind-blowing, like that’s was that really in there? You’re like, actually, yeah, this is pretty integral to the gospel. It’s pretty important that we see that all have sinned,

all

Shannon Popkin (25:24) Yes.

Jen Oshman (25:24) fall short of the glory of God. Because if you’re born of Adam, and that’s all of us, then you are, then sin has been passed on to you. But

the gift of Christ is greater and we are re we receive grace and salvation through Christ.

Shannon Popkin (25:41) Yes. So good. in Genesis five, or I’m sorry, in Romans five, the one man. And it’s the one man Adam and the one man Jesus. And so through the one man Adam, that’s how sin entered the world. And it’s sort of like this, if you can picture like this gateway and it goes to every single person. It’s like almost like

Jen Oshman (26:00) I love that. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (26:01) the the bloodline has been contaminated. The you know, whatever is passed on, it’s broken,

Jen Oshman (26:05) Mm.

Shannon Popkin (26:06) it’s flawed, it’s like

Sin is a sickness and we’ve all got it. We’ve all it’s been passed to everyone. But then there is this way to be saved, a way to be rescued from the fallenness of our our sinful nature. And that too is through one man. And the beauty

Jen Oshman (26:23) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (26:23) of that is that all of us sick people, you know, we can’t make ourselves well. We can’t undo what is broken in ourselves. And we don’t have to because

Jen Oshman (26:33) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (26:34) Jesus, it’s through the one man.

what’s beautiful

about that is Jesus lived this perfect, like he lived, he is uncontaminated by sin. He entered

Jen Oshman (26:42) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (26:43) the the human race, not through a a human father, right? That’s that’s

Jen Oshman (26:48) That’s right.

Shannon Popkin (26:49) why the virgin birth is so important, is

Jen Oshman (26:51) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (26:52) that that he

Was born not of a human man, but of a human woman. and yet he lived this perfect life from birth until death, having never been contaminated with sin. I know I’m using

Jen Oshman (27:06) Right.

Shannon Popkin (27:06) that word contaminated a lot, but it’s just like this this fallenness. He lived a completely unfallen life. Like he he did what none of us could. he said no to every temptation, and he was tempted in all the ways that we have been tempted, but like Eve and Adam.

Both fell with this this one temptation. And Jesus righted every single wrong. And so it’s like

Jen Oshman (27:29) Amen.

Shannon Popkin (27:30) his life counts for us. And so that’s why that’s why this whole representation thing. I think women feel like, well, that’s not right. That I would be represented by a man.

Jen Oshman (27:38) Mm mm, mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (27:40) But if we don’t have that, then we can’t have the next.

headship representing him and then we’re lost forever. So yeah,

Jen Oshman (27:45) Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that’s right.

Shannon Popkin (27:49) comment on that, Jen.

Jen Oshman (27:50) I think definitely in our individualistic, fiercely autonomous culture, we do not want to be represented. it’s funny though, because like you we don’t want to be represented by maybe a president that we don’t agree with, but we do want to be represented by America at the Olympics. You know, like there’s like

Shannon Popkin (28:04) Yeah.

Jen Oshman (28:05) we wanna kind of pick who’s gonna represent us, but the reality is Adam does represent all humanity and we receive his sin. And praise God, by his grace, Jesus can.

represent us as we receive his forgiveness by grace through faith. So yeah, in our reflex is to be fiercely individual, fiercely independent. But the reality is salvation doesn’t come through independence. Salvation comes through absolute dependence on somebody

Shannon Popkin (28:33) Mm.

Jen Oshman (28:34) else doing it on your behalf, paying your way. Yeah. So

Shannon Popkin (28:36) That is a good word. Yes.

Jen Oshman (28:39) as much as I want to be independent and individual and autonomous, the scriptures, the people of God

It is communal. God is communal. People are communal. like God’s family, it’s far more communal than it is independent. We do have to have a personal relationship with our Lord

and Savior, but it’s

Shannon Popkin (28:57) Yes, yeah.

Jen Oshman (28:59) not private. It is a communal relationship. So it’s just our reflex to like reject that, but that’s

Shannon Popkin (29:05) Yes.

Jen Oshman (29:05) really not the spirit of the scriptures, is they’re they’re pretty communal.

Shannon Popkin (29:09) if you were to like piece out what are some of the false narratives that of the world that or like even in the church that are born out of me wanting my independence,

Jen Oshman (29:21) Yeah. I mean, I think we we think we can have a relationship with Jesus without going to church. And that’s ridiculous. You you actually can’t. I understand there are abusive churches out there and there’s a time and a place to be like, I have been hurt by the church and I need to recover. And I I bless that. I’m not saying that’s always wrong. But I think we, you know, we’re like, well, I can kind of take it or leave it. I’m gonna have my quiet time over and above my weekly time of corporate worship with the people of God.

And the reality is that’s not gonna go well for us because we’re made for community, as we have said from the first phase pages of Genesis. So I think we wanna be fiercely independent Christians too. but what we see in the scriptures is people living together, doing life together, confessing their sins to each other, calling each other to repentance, calling each other to discipleship and to sacrifice themselves for God and his church. So

Shannon Popkin (30:14) Yeah.

Jen Oshman (30:15) it’s we’re so it’s so the air we breathe. I think.

I you know, I don’t even know it when I’m doing it, when I’m like, well, as for me, you know, my Jesus, my Bible. And as I was

Shannon Popkin (30:23) Mm.

Jen Oshman (30:25) like, I’m sorry, that’s just not an option.

Not this religion, not the one true God, it’s not an option.

Shannon Popkin (30:31) I’ve had people say that to me, come up, that’s not my Jesus, you know, like that’s not

Jen Oshman (30:37) Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (30:38) and or even that’s not our Jesus, you know. I had a woman say that to me after I spoke one time.

that’s so interesting that we can

Jen Oshman (30:44) Yeah, yeah.

Shannon Popkin (30:45) fashion our Jesus in our the image that we have, you know, versus what we read is no, he’s

Jen Oshman (30:51) It’s the reverse.

Shannon Popkin (30:52) the one who created us in his image. And

Jen Oshman (30:55) That’s right.

Shannon Popkin (30:56) We’re

the learners of that. would there be any like anything else that you wanted to say about either a false narrative that this story corrects

Jen Oshman (31:04) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (31:05) or a way that we can live like this story is true?

Jen Oshman (31:08) I think I tell the student, you have to spend time in Genesis before you go on. Like you want to flip to the pages in the New Testament that feel hot and spicy and just what’s going on here. But the reality is you can’t answer that if you don’t have the whole narrative of scripture already in mind and understood before you get to some of these more difficult and complex aspects.

So, what I want to say to the listener is if you’re wondering if what the Bible has to say about being female, if it’s good. Which, to be totally honest, when I started this project, I was a little bit fearful that some of what I would find wouldn’t be good. you know, I just had a suspicion, like, man, is it all gonna be good? Like, what am I gonna do with the things that don’t feel good to me? And the truth

Shannon Popkin (31:50) Yeah.

Jen Oshman (31:50) was, as I studied the scriptures and I studied

the literary context of the scriptures and I studied the historical context of the scriptures. What I found to be true is that it’s all actually radically good for women, given the time and the space and the people. And you know, there’s so much study that has to go into it. But with such a joy and a delight to be like, Lord, you have always really protected and provided for and seen women. So that’s that’s in the study. We look at the Old Testament law.

And we look at, you know, some of the Old Testament stories, how Jesus treated women, even how Paul partnered with women in ministry and depended on women to be church planters alongside him. So the story of women in the scriptures is really dignified and pretty astounding. and that starts with the image of God in Genesis chapter one. So start there for sure.

Shannon Popkin (32:43) I love it. Yes,

for sure. What do you think is the number one false narrative that women are touting today about being a woman?

Jen Oshman (32:53) I think,

yeah, I I think that it’s that we’re second second class, second best, second in line. I think in the church and in secular culture, whether we’re proclaiming that or fighting against it or silently suspecting it, I think that we’re not convinced that that we’re not afterthoughts, you know, that the Lord had us in mind from the very beginning and that we’re actually a necessary.

needed ally to partner with Adam in the work that God has for all of humanity. And we’re not second class and we’re not second best. We’re actually strong, important piece to finishing the mission that God has for humanity.

Shannon Popkin (33:36) When you started writing, was that one of the things that you were hoping you wouldn’t find?

is that part of your story where you felt second to a man?

Jen Oshman (33:45) I

have definitely wrestled with that. I think the way we throw around the story of Eve and the way that we throw around her name and some of the way we misunderstand some of the New Testament comments on Eve make do make us feel, even in the church, like, I need I probably do need to minimize myself a little bit because look at Eve. Like, look what Eve did. And I am a female. Yeah, like she’s the culprit. Like she’s

Shannon Popkin (34:08) Like she was she was deceived and Adam wasn’t. Is that maybe one of the Yeah.

Jen Oshman (34:13) like

Even look at how culture depicts Eve. Like she’s always this like kind of sinister, you know, up to no good, can’t totally trust her. The way that we think of Eve as a people, in the church and outside the church, I think is really inaccurate. And so we we absorb that and I think feel like from the get-go as young girls, I am responsible for what’s wrong in the world and

Shannon Popkin (34:42) Which is, I mean, I think

Jen Oshman (34:42) I’m I’m second.

Shannon Popkin (34:44) I think we just put that on its head because of Adam being the one, right? The the representation

Jen Oshman (34:49) Yeah. I know, I know.

Shannon Popkin (34:51) of Adam. if Eve never ate the fruit and Adam did, the fall of mankind would have still happened, right? And if Eve ate the fruit and Adam didn’t, then it w the

Jen Oshman (34:58) Mm-hmm, for sure. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I’m

I don’t seek to elevate Eve above where she should be. Like she’s did,

Shannon Popkin (35:08) Right. right.

Jen Oshman (35:10) she was deceived by the serpent. that word helper has such a negative connotation in our context, but in the Hebrew, it’s a very strong word. It’s a word that’s used to describe God Himself many times in the Old Testament.

Shannon Popkin (35:20) God, yeah.

Jen Oshman (35:22) just that misunderstanding of the fundamentals of Genesis chapter two then lays a a groundwork for women suspecting that we’re not good. We’re just

we’re just the

Shannon Popkin (35:31) Yes.

Jen Oshman (35:31) helpers. But the reality is that is a strong, even a military word, like a shield, a protector, somebody who helps finish the mission. So what I want women to know is we were created

Good and we were created necessary. Those are huge. And we were created for mission. Like we have a mission in the pages of scripture. So

Shannon Popkin (35:50) Yes, we do. Yeah.

Yes. And amen. We have such a good mission and we get to partner with men and women to accomplish

Jen Oshman (35:59) That’s right. That’s right.

Shannon Popkin (36:01) this mission. and God calls all of it very good. So thank you so much, Jen. This has been such a blessing, you know, to hear hear

Jen Oshman (36:05) Yeah. My delight, thank you.

Shannon Popkin (36:09) from you. And I mean, this is just the beginning of what you’re gonna find in this book. So I hope everybody all gets a copy of Very Good, What the Bible says.

About being a woman by Jen Oshman. and it’s it’s got video teachings with it, right? You can access those right from the book, it’ll give you your QR code. LifeWave

Jen Oshman (36:24) That’s right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep.

Shannon Popkin (36:29) produced this. We always love what LifeWave puts together, and I think it’s just a phenomenal resource. It’s doable, you know, it’s succinct enough that you can you’re not gonna get bogged down. You’re gonna make your way through scripture. Jen does a great job of getting us from one thing to the next.

you’re just such a great teacher, a trustworthy

Jen Oshman (36:45) Mm, thank you.

Shannon Popkin (36:46) teacher. So I think this is gonna be such a good study for women’s ministries. Seven weeks, seven week Bible study.

Jen Oshman (36:53) Right.

Shannon Popkin (36:54) Anything else that you want them to know about where to find you, where to find the book?

Jen Oshman (36:59) Jen Oshman dot com or I’m on Instagram as Jen Oshman. So I’d love to meet you there and keep the conversation going.

Shannon Popkin (37:04) Yeah, go watch all of her little Instagram reels on this book. I thought they were really helpful. So really good job.

Jen Oshman (37:08) Thank you, Shannon.

Shannon Popkin (37:10) Well, thank you. It was great to be with you.

Jen Oshman (37:13) You too.