Shannon Popkin (00:00) Jen Ashman, welcome to Live Like It’s True. It’s so great to have you.

Jen Oshman (00:03) Yes, thank you, I’m thrilled to be here.

Shannon Popkin (00:06) Before we hit record, I was like, I am your biggest fan. I just love your work. I love

Jen Oshman (00:09) Ha ha ha

Shannon Popkin (00:12) just your personality. I’ve just kind of, you know, been watching you on Instagram and you do these little reels and you make it easy to receive God’s word and his truth. And I I love that about you. So I know you live in Denver the Denver area, Colorado. And do you have four daughters? Is that it? Four daughters? Some in high school still and some who you’ve got one.

Jen Oshman (00:27) That’s right. Yeah. That’s right. I sure do. Mm-hmm. Actually

all in college at this point and and out of college. All nine

Shannon Popkin (00:36) all in college. Okay. Okay.

Jen Oshman (00:39) nineteen to twenty nine at this point.

Shannon Popkin (00:41) my goodness. And your oldest daughter is married and has children, right? two are, okay.

Jen Oshman (00:44) Yeah. Yes. Two of are married. one is married with

two children and one is married and in grad school. And then two more

Shannon Popkin (00:52) Okay.

Jen Oshman (00:53) are in college right now.

Shannon Popkin (00:54) Okay. Wow. That’s so cool. And I know that you guys served overseas. Was it in Remind Me Where?

Jen Oshman (01:00) Yeah.

Yeah. We went to both Japan to serve the American military community serving there. So we my husband passed her to church in Okinawa, Japan, and we were there for a very long time. And then after that we were in the Czech Republic serving Czechs in a Czech church, and then we came back to Colorado and God used our family to plant a church here in the Denver area.

Shannon Popkin (01:22) So and I know that you served with our good friends, the Goshos, in the Czech Republic. And we just have such fondness for their ministry there. So, well,

Jen Oshman (01:33) Yes.

Shannon Popkin (01:34) we’re gonna talk today though about your brand new book. How many books have you written now, Jen?

Jen Oshman (01:39) well I have another one about to come out and so at the end of this year there’ll be eight eight books out total. Yes, praise God. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (01:44) my goodness. Praise God for every single one of them. Also, let me

say you’re a speaker. I know that you love to travel and speak for women’s groups. You got to speak at the church here in my town, where my son is on staff as a middle school director, Grace Community. But I I think I was gone. I don’t remember what I was doing. Probably speaking somewhere else. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I didn’t get to hear you. I would have loved that. But my daughter-in-law said she loved hearing you.

Jen Oshman (02:04) Yes. Yeah, I think you were traveling and speaking too.

Shannon Popkin (02:13) share with their women. So I know that’s and you’re gonna be at the Bloom Conference in Massachusetts. I saw that’s I love

Jen Oshman (02:17) That’s right. Yes, yes.

Shannon Popkin (02:20) those women. So anyway, thankful for all the different ways that you serve the Lord. but yeah

Jen Oshman (02:22) Wonderful. Mm-hmm. Likewise.

Shannon Popkin (02:26) we’re gonna dive in though and talk a little bit about this book, which I have to say I don’t think there is a cover that I like more than I like this cover. It is it is a

Jen Oshman (02:35) Isn’t the cover I know. The artists at Lifeway really knocked it out of the park with that one. It’s

beautiful. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (02:40) Beautiful color, like just the color palette and the I just love it so much. So the title

is Very Good What God Says About or I’m sorry, what the Bible says about being a woman, which woo that was a big topic to take on, and you did it so well. I cannot say enough good about this book. I would love for women to consider it for their Bible studies. I think it’s just a phenomenal resource because you’re a really good Bible study teacher. You don’t give us like

You let us do the digging for ourselves.

and yet v offering clarity where it’s needed. So I really, really love it so far. I’m not all the way through,

Jen Oshman (03:13) Hmm. Yeah, thank you.

Shannon Popkin (03:16) but I’m loving it. So it it’s it opens as it should with the creation story. That’s your first,

Jen Oshman (03:23) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (03:23) is it two chapters? look at my.

Jen Oshman (03:26) Yeah, the first

couple weeks of study camp out mostly in Genesis, which I know, you know, I think a lot of people feel like, yeah, the creation account, got it, move on. but as I know you know, it is really fundamental and it’s so important that we deeply study Genesis to better understand the rest of the scriptures and the character of God and who we are. So

Shannon Popkin (03:44) Yes.

Jen Oshman (03:46) we camped out there for a while, hopefully pulling out nuggets that maybe the student hadn’t considered before.

Shannon Popkin (03:52) Yes. Well, I had found several. I was like, wow, I’ve really studied Genesis one through three. And I just hadn’t seen a couple of those things. So it was I agree. I completely agree.

Jen Oshman (04:00) Isn’t that amazing? Like we’re never gonna get to the bottom of God’s word. I love that. Mm hmm. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (04:05) but yeah, I love that you wrote in the book that it literally is the foundation for everything else that we will encounter in the Bible. So the creation story and fall is just so, so important.

You

know, on this podcast, what we really like to do is look at story, look at narratives of the Bible, because there are so many intangibles for our faith. And it’s the concrete that helps us with the abstract. I think a lot of times in scripture, like the Lord created our brains, knows how we retain information, how we process things. And so we are physical beings and He created our minds to

enjoy story to be able to retain story, to be interested in story. Like that anytime somebody’s preaching, you know, we all perk up when we’re when there’s a narrative, when there’s some story. so I think it’s good and right and wise for us to really pay attention to the narrative parts of our Bible and what is included, particularly in the Genesis account. So what

Jen Oshman (05:05) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (05:06) I want to do with my precious time with you, Jen, is I want to look at

let’s let’s try it at least for four different concrete tangible things that we encounter in the creation narrative and and what implication that has for how we live. You know, so how

Jen Oshman (05:21) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (05:23) do we live like it’s true that each of these four or five things are embedded in the creation count? and then I think we’ll, you know, progressively we’ll get to.

women in particular, you know, but let’s just start

Jen Oshman (05:34) Yeah, yeah.

Shannon Popkin (05:35) out with humanity.

Jen Oshman (05:38) Mm.

Shannon Popkin (05:38) and okay, in case listeners aren’t aware of this, would you please just summarize the difference between Genesis one and Genesis two in the creation account?

Jen Oshman (05:48) Yeah, sure. So Genesis one is kind of a flyover. And then Genesis two is a zoom in. That’s the easiest way to put it. Is Genesis one gives us a big picture, you know, what happened each day. We have this repetition of God said and it was and it was very good. and then in Genesis chapter two, we get more in the weeds, especially on the creation of Adam and Eve. not only them, but especially on them. So if it’s like if we’re gonna zoom in and get more detail, especially on humanity in Genesis chapter two.

Shannon Popkin (06:17) Mm-hmm. Yeah. And the the genre is a little different too. You know, Genesis one has this poetic, it’s like a a very well crafted, there’s all this symmetry and design embedded in like the days. If you, if you compare like the different days, and you know, so he’s creating some expanse and then he’s filling it. He’s creating, he’s expi filling it, and then there’s all of this separating and there’s, you know, and there’s this repeated refrain. It’s

God saw that it was good. God saw that it was good. God saw that it was good. Just make a comment because that’s the title of your book. Very good. So g make a comment on that that we’re seeing in Genesis one.

Jen Oshman (06:53) Yeah, very good. Yeah,

yeah, you’re absolutely right. Genesis one is beautiful and the repetition is on purpose. And what we see that we get the the reader gets the sense over and over that God is all powerful and all good. Like he speaks and it comes into existence. And what he makes is good because he is good. So when we get to Genesis chapter two and we see for the very first time the words not good.

It’s meant to stop the reader in her tracks, his or her tracks, you know. It’s meant to go, wait a minute. I thought everything that God made was good, but when Adam is alone, it is not good. And so we zoom in then on that narrative and and see the creation of Eve. And that has huge implications for what the Bible has to say about being a woman.

Shannon Popkin (07:43) Yeah, yes, so true.

So when God opens with the the creation account of Adam and Eve in verse twenty six, then God said, Let us make man in our

Jen Oshman (07:53) Mm, mm.

Shannon Popkin (07:55) image. And I had a I

Did an episode with Kelly Needham. So we won’t we won’t go all into that, but we talked about how the plurality of God is is foundational for us to image him. And so it’s starting with God is three in one. It’s starting with the let us make man, but it’s not just man, it’s male and female together are imaging God. There’s this plurality of God, and then there’s this plurality of the two genders.

Jen Oshman (08:27) That’s right.

Shannon Popkin (08:27) of of mankind and and so we image him but let’s just let’s just lean in so the first thing I want to look at is this idea of us being created in God’s image. Let me just read those verses or that verse 27. So God created man in his own image. He created him in the image of God. He created them male and female. So this idea of imaging God, how does that

help us understand like who we are. Like what does this actually even mean? This idea of i being

Jen Oshman (09:00) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (09:01) in the image of God.

Jen Oshman (09:03) Yeah, I mean, theologians have penned so many books on that topic. It’s probably a question that we’ll never fully get to the bottom of. But we can get we can still get at it. And so to to im to be made in God’s image is to somehow be like God in some ways, to somehow represent him, to be a representation or an image of him right here on earth. So kind of the way like

a a coin has the image of George Washington on it. Like that’s not George Washington, but it’s a representation of, you know, the founder of this country and who he was and his values and the establishment of this country. You know, his image is there. And so in in that same way, we we image God in creation. So the Lord has attributes that we have and he also has attributes that we don’t have. But there are things that God does in the world like create.

and have rule and have power and have dominion, also have compassion and have mercy and extend care and extend kindness, these attributes that the Lord has, we also have. And so there’s this sense that we are sort of his representatives on earth, a way that maybe you know, we’re we are like sent out to be stewards on his behalf of his creation and to do as he would do.

To have character like him, to behave like him, to care for creation in the way that he intended, because he’s commissioned us to be his stewards in his place. But it is a hard question. Like getting right at it is difficult when people are like, but tell me exactly what that means. It is hard.

Shannon Popkin (10:44) Yeah,

it is. Yeah. But I think it’s you know, if we think about the fact that God is invisible, you know, it it’s hard for us to even picture God. we want to know him. He’s our creator.

And yet the fact that human beings, I don’t know, are an image of him. They’re they’re like a

Jen Oshman (11:03) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (11:04) a mirroring or a

Reflection maybe of him. I don’t know if those are good words that I’ve I know I’ve used those before.

Jen Oshman (11:06) Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (11:09) I don’t know. But but we show the world what God is like.

Jen Oshman (11:14) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (11:15) when when we’re in alignment with his character, we show the world

Jen Oshman (11:17) That’s right.

Shannon Popkin (11:18) what what God is like. We make the invisible God visible. And, you know, there’s that verse that says,

Jen Oshman (11:22) That’s right.

Shannon Popkin (11:23) We’re the hands and feet of Jesus, right? So

Jen Oshman (11:25) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (11:25) I also really liked the fact that you brought us to Genesis five in your study. because

Jen Oshman (11:30) Mm, ooh.

Shannon Popkin (11:31) like basically what’s happening, this is I I studied this quite a bit when I was writing my chapter on the flood in kind of judgy. And I I failed

Jen Oshman (11:40) Mm.

Shannon Popkin (11:40) to say

You were w one of the endorsers of that book. I’m so thankful for that. so Genesis is arranged by these tolado, these lists of generations. And by Genesis

Jen Oshman (11:51) That’s right.

Shannon Popkin (11:52) five, we’ve had those already. And so basically what happens is Adam and Eve are are created, they have children, and then there is this like the fall is so evidenced in their children, where their

Jen Oshman (12:04) Yeah, yeah.

Shannon Popkin (12:05) oldest son murders their secondborn. And it’s just this.

Devastating, horrifying thing. And then Cain goes on to not really image God in the way that he’s living and his descendants. So we see, like we see these generations unfolding, and people are looking less and less and less like their creator. and

Jen Oshman (12:25) Uh-huh.

Shannon Popkin (12:26) and I mean, back in Genesis 3, God promised that there would be a descendant who would restore all that’s been lost. And so we’re looking at these different generations. Okay, is it this one? Is it this one?

Is like, nope, not him either.

Jen Oshman (12:37) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (12:39) But then we get to Genesis five and there’s sort of like this reset where it almost

calls back to mind, it’s with the birth of Seth, it calls back to mind the creation story where,

Jen Oshman (12:51) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (12:52) okay, finally someone, and there’s this repetition of this idea of imaging God. Do you want to read those verses for us?

Jen Oshman (12:59) Mm, yeah, sure.

so verse three says Adam was one hundred and thirty years old when he fathered a son in his likeness according to his image, and named him Seth. Adam lived 800

Shannon Popkin (13:10) Mm-hmm.

Jen Oshman (13:11) years after he fathered Seth, and he fathered other sons and daughters. So Adam’s life lasted 930 years, then he died.

Shannon Popkin (13:19) Yeah.

But before that, in one through two, we say we have

Jen Oshman (13:23) Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (13:24) you know, on on that day, God created man. He made him in the likeness of God. He created the male and female. When they were created, he blessed them and called them mankind. And so, like, he’s calling to mind the creation story. Like, I’m not just inserting this idea, like the Moses

Jen Oshman (13:38) For sure. Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (13:40) is inserting this idea and then saying that he fathered a son in his likeness. So there it is again, like this likeness.

Jen Oshman (13:46) Mm-hmm. Yeah. God’s image being passed

on. Mm-hmm. Not just Adam.

Shannon Popkin (13:49) This image. Yeah. So how do we

exactly? there’s something about the way that kids look like their parents, in that there’s something about this,

Jen Oshman (13:57) Mm-hmm. Yep. There’s a resemblance.

Shannon Popkin (14:01) yeah. What what do you think? What do you think is the significance

Jen Oshman (14:03) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (14:03) of this being called to mind again with the birth of Seth?

Jen Oshman (14:08) Well, I think that it what’s also really key in chapter f five is that it is also there’s a pattern in it, and at the end of every paragraph, you know, there’s a new generation pronounced, and then at the end of each paragraph it says, and then he died, and then he died. So

Shannon Popkin (14:20) And then he died. Yeah, it’s so sad.

Jen Oshman (14:24) at the beginning of chapter five, we see this image of God is passed on to Adam, and Adam passes it on to Seth, and it’s passed on to all generations. Like the the image of God does not stop. It is always passed on. And I think that’s really key.

For our perspective of humanity, that every human, no matter our ability or our cognition, no matter how horrifically we have sinned or caused harm to other people, no matter how what good citizens we are, all of us, every human you see is made in God’s image. And that means every

Shannon Popkin (14:56) Yes.

Jen Oshman (14:57) single life bears dignity and worth and value and is worth protection and care.

and all that that life needs in order to thrive and be all that the creator of that life intended. And so I do think it is easy to forget just how sacred every single human life is, especially in our age, that’s very digital and also very polarized. I even myself as someone who knows this to be true and the spirit of God lives in me, I have to.

Pay attention to when I am looking at somebody else who I may sharply disagree with or somebody who I think is causing significant harm and look on them as if they are less than, you know, that yeah, jet like what an what an idiot, what a dumb, you know, I can’t believe it.

Shannon Popkin (15:41) Judge them, right? Be so condescending and yes, contempt.

Jen Oshman (15:48) Those come up in my heart. And this is a reminder. No, everybody is made in God’s image and therefore worth.

the dignity and the value. Like I owe them that because God gave them that. And they don’t ever, ever lose it, no matter what they’ve done.

Shannon Popkin (16:02) That’s

yes, that’s exactly right. I I think you wrote something like that in the endorsement that you gave to kind of judge you because like that’s really what is happening when we’re just

Jen Oshman (16:12) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (16:12) so filled with contempt as we looked at look

Jen Oshman (16:14) Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (16:15) at either peop other people who have done wrong. Like it’s not we’re not saying they’re not in sin or they

Jen Oshman (16:18) Mm-hmm. Right. Right.

Shannon Popkin (16:20) haven’t sinned. but but we’re wrong when we express contempt toward them because of whose image they bear.

Jen Oshman (16:29) That’s

right. That’s right.

Shannon Popkin (16:29) It’s like every

single human being bears the image of the creator. And I love too that you brought us to you know, these verses on capital punishment and the the purpose given.

this like command in Genesis 9

Jen Oshman (16:43) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (16:44) 6 those who murder will be put to death.

Jen Oshman (16:46) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (16:46) The reason that he gives is because they’re created in God’s image. And so it’s like God is taking up an offense. You have done something so wrong by murdering someone who is in my

Jen Oshman (16:51) Mm, mm-hmm, yes, mhm, mm-hmm, yeah.

Shannon Popkin (16:58) image.

we do bear the image of God, you know?

Jen Oshman (17:00) Yeah, yeah. So good.

Shannon Popkin (17:03) Any other thoughts on how we live like that is true.

Jen Oshman (17:06) you know, where I live in Colorado, this is an affront to the way many Coloradans think. many Coloradans believe that all all animals are equal and that there’s protection

afforded to literally a protection afforded to dogs in my city that is not protect you know, afforded to babies in their mother’s wombs. So I think this is a

Shannon Popkin (17:28) My goodness, how is that

what do you mean?

Jen Oshman (17:31) well abortion is legal here up until the time of birth. you know, I think we treat like the the treatment of bald eagles and and puppy puppy litters with more care and sanctity than

Shannon Popkin (17:41) yeah.

Jen Oshman (17:43) human life in this state.

I mean h animal

Shannon Popkin (17:45) that’s okay.

Jen Oshman (17:46) cruelty is treated really seriously here.

Shannon Popkin (17:49) Well,

I know I know in Colorado, like everybody’s got a dog. And everybody can bring their dog everywhere because my sister lives there. It’s like Are you serious? my goodness.

Jen Oshman (17:55) Yeah. More dogs than babies. More dogs than babies in the city of Denver. Yeah, according to the last census. Yeah. Yeah. And part of

that is probably the affordability of the city. But there is a lack of agreement in this state for sure over how

Shannon Popkin (18:12) Yeah.

Jen Oshman (18:13) sacred life is.

Shannon Popkin (18:15) Yeah. But I I also saw in the in the imaging of God, like just the idea that you know, God is our father, you know, because like

Jen Oshman (18:25) No, no, no, no.

Shannon Popkin (18:26) by saying that that Adam fathered a son in his likeness,

Jen Oshman (18:31) Mm, that’s good.

Shannon Popkin (18:32) it was like this son was imaging him in the in the way that like, you know, babies look like their parents. Well

in that same way I image God. I’m a person who looks like my creator. And it it just makes it like that relational component, you know, those who believe that we just evolved,

our commonality with monkeys or whatever it is, you know, like I I find so much hope and security and joy in the fact that I

have

a creator and that he

Jen Oshman (19:03) Right.

Shannon Popkin (19:03) thinks of me like a daughter, that all

Jen Oshman (19:05) Wow.

Shannon Popkin (19:06) children, all people are children of God in that way. Like we all image God. And I just was thinking about how I’ve known, I know you have do you have an adopted daughter, right?

Jen Oshman (19:17) I do. Mm-hmm.

Shannon Popkin (19:18) Yeah. And so I’ve known different adopted people they’re completely happy and content.

In their adoptive family, and yet there’s something in them, some drive to know

Jen Oshman (19:29) Mm, always, yeah.

Shannon Popkin (19:31) where they came from. Like who are their

Jen Oshman (19:33) Always.

Shannon Popkin (19:34) people? You know, I I’ve watched these Instagram reels where, like, you know, they found their their family of

Jen Oshman (19:39) No, no, no.

Shannon Popkin (19:40) origin, and there’s just this like, I just cry when I see it. You know, we all just kind of want to know where we’ve come from. We

Jen Oshman (19:42) Mm, mm. We do. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (19:46) wanna know like who we’ve descended from. Like there’s we wanna know our history, and God gives it to us here.

Jen Oshman (19:52) Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (19:53) Each human being has all of this dignity and value and worth. He counts us as his children. There’s something

Jen Oshman (19:59) That’s right.

Shannon Popkin (19:59) just so beautiful about that.

Jen Oshman (20:02) For sure, for sure. And like you said, security.

That’s their there’s relief in that too. Like, I don’t have to create my own significance. I don’t

Shannon Popkin (20:11) Yes.

Jen Oshman (20:11) have to write my own story. There’s a I I’m actually part of a bigger story. And so I think there could be a lot of pressure just relieved when we walk in that story, in that truth.

Shannon Popkin (20:23) It’s so true. So all right. I know we only got through one, but I would love

Jen Oshman (20:24) Hmm. Okay.

Shannon Popkin (20:27) to finish up this episode and and then

Jen Oshman (20:30) Mm.

Shannon Popkin (20:30) hit reset and we’re just gonna dive right in. So we’re gonna say you have to come back and listen to part one before you can. But will you come back one next time and we’ll talk about some other ways? All right. So thank you so

Jen Oshman (20:35) Okay. Sounds good. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sounds great.

Shannon Popkin (20:42) much.