Shannon Popkin (00:00) Well Susie Renzema, welcome to Live Like It’s True. Thank you. I’m happy to be here.

Susie Renzema track 2 (00:00) Well Susie Renzema, welcome to Live Like It’s True. Thank you. I’m happy to be here.

Shannon Popkin (00:04) It’s so good to have you. We are friends in real life, which is a treat. We both live in the Grand Rapids area. and we first met, I believe, through our mutual friend Missy Hartwell, yes.

Susie Renzema track 2 (00:08) We both live in the Grand Rapids area. and we first met I believe through our mutual friend Missy Hartwell, yes.

Yes, and then found out that our boys knew each other.

Shannon Popkin (00:17) Yes, yeah. they in. We’ve just supported them for a long time.

Susie Renzema track 2 (00:21) Street House of Prayer, which you guys are kind of invested in. We’ve just supported them for a long time.

Shannon Popkin (00:30) Chris went to the mission school and we’ve just stayed involved and are friends with a lot of those wonderful young families that started it.

Susie Renzema track 2 (00:30) Chris went to the mission school and we’ve just stayed involved and are friends with a lot of those wonderful young families that started it.

So son loved Bridge so we’re gonna talk a little bit about

Shannon Popkin (00:37) Love it. so we’re gonna talk a little bit about the

topic of judgy girl. I am a judgy girl, Susie. I struggle with judging other people. I’m very sensitive to being judged.

Susie Renzema track 2 (00:55) I feel like there’s this chain reaction of the moment I feel judged by you, I’m gonna flip that around and I’m gonna judge you right back. There’s just it’s all of those just tendencies are deeply rooted in my heart. And

Shannon Popkin (00:55) I feel like there’s this chain reaction of the moment I feel judged by you, I’m gonna flip that around and I’m gonna judge you right back. There’s just it’s all of those just tendencies are deeply rooted in my heart. And

so I wonder like for you, do you relate to that? Do you find that same tendency in yourself? And how did that start?

Susie Renzema track 2 (01:09) So I wonder like for you, do you relate to that? Do you find that same tendency in yourself and how

one hundred percent. I remember one time years ago I said something about someone and my daughter just said, You’re so judgy and I was like, you know, ouch. Our kids are

Shannon Popkin (01:29) Kids are

they are going to call us out on this. Hundred percent. And when they’re in their twenties, just wax. It’s yeah, it’s brutal. You can’t say anything.

Susie Renzema track 2 (01:29) They are going to call us out. hundred percent. And and when they’re in their twenties, just watch out. It’s yeah, it’s brutal. It’s brutal. I mean

I’m very politically incorrect. I’m never using the right words. Everybody.

Shannon Popkin (01:40) I am very politically incorrect by I know, always getting it wrong.

I’m I feel very judged by my kids, but they’re calling me judgy. I relate to that, Susie. Yeah.

Susie Renzema track 2 (01:46) very judged about my kids, but they’re calling me judgy. I relate to that, Susie. 100%.

I don’t I don’t tend to get that as much with my son It these interactions

happen more between my daughter and I and it will be I think where it’s shown up the most is I’m expressing something that was like heartful concerning.

Shannon Popkin (02:01) think where it’s shown up the most I’m expressing something that was like hurtful concerning. Yeah.

and I may

Susie Renzema track 2 (02:08) And I may

say judgy things, but you know, I know it’s coming out of like my hurt feelings or whatever I wonder if girls do

Shannon Popkin (02:09) say judgy things, but you know, I know it’s coming out of like my hurt feelings or whatever. I wonder if girls

have more of a tendency or prone to this, do you think?

Susie Renzema track 2 (02:21) I I truly think so because I think that

as women we’re told to be sisters and gal pals and but we’re really pitted against each other. to me it feels like a a real competitive culture that we live in. And so I b I think because of that, judging and feeling judged is just

Shannon Popkin (02:25) as women we’re told to be sisters and gal pals and, but we’re really pitted against each other. to me it feels like a a real competitive culture that we live in. Yeah. And so I b I think because of that, judging and feeling judged is just

Susie Renzema track 2 (02:47) It’s almost so automatic that we don’t even know we’re doing it. Yeah. I there’s a lot of overlap with this topic in my book, comparison girl. Like I remember go I actually went back and and listen re-listened to a couple of interviews I did on comparison because I remembered like, yeah, a lot of the times the person was comparing and they were feeling judged. You know, they’re feeling or they were judging, they were feeling superior and compared.

Shannon Popkin (02:47) It’s almost so that we don’t even know we’re doing it. Yeah. I there’s a lot of overlap with this topic in my book, Comparison Girl. Like I remember go I actually went back and and listen re-listened to a couple of interviews I did on comparison because I remembered like, yeah, a lot of the times the person was comparing and they were feeling judged. You know, they were feeling or they were judging, they were feeling superior and comparing

down. And

Susie Renzema track 2 (03:14) down and

and I think as women you’re right we are well we are more relational so I think we’re even more in tune with what’s happening like my husband and I can go to the same event the same party and walk away and I’ll be like did you hear that did you see that did you hear that in the tone and then he’s like no he didn’t see any of it. He had no idea he’s completely oblivious. And he had a better time right

Shannon Popkin (03:16) And I think as women, you’re right. We are well, we are more relational. So I think we’re even more in tune with what’s happening. Like my husband and I can go to the same event, the same party and walk away and I’ll be like, did you hear that? Did you see that? Did you hear that in the tone? And then he’s like, No, he didn’t see any of it. He had no idea. He’s completely oblivious. He didn’t see Yeah.

Susie Renzema track 2 (03:39) probably

Shannon Popkin (03:42) Probably.

You know, he just misses you know, there’s the surface of what people are actually saying. And then there are all of these other things that I am aware of, the interpersonal, because and I think that’s our gifts being used in a in a flawed way. We are gifted for a relationship.

We’re relational. And yet we turn our gift for understanding people and relating to them. We turn it into well, I have a new way to measure people and so when when we talk about judging, what we’re talking about is right and wrong.

Susie Renzema track 2 (04:02) We’re relational and yet we turn our gift for understanding people and relating to them. We turn it into well, I have a new way to measure people and so when when we talk about judging, what we’re talking about is right and wrong.

Shannon Popkin (04:18) It’s different than critiquing. You know, you can critique food or home decor or whatever. And it’s not really a a moral issue.

Susie Renzema track 2 (04:18) different than critiquing, you know, you can critique food or home decor or whatever and it’s not really a a moral issue.

But but we’re talking about right and wrong. We’re talking about lines between right and wrong. Someone has crossed over. And so in relationship we tend to notice that more when somebody has crossed a line

Shannon Popkin (04:25) But but we’re talking about right and wrong. We’re talking about lines between right and wrong. And someone has crossed over. And so in relationship, we tend to notice that more when somebody has crossed a line.

You know, my husband is not nearly as offended or outraged by little comments that someone might say, you know, where I’m like, can’t you believe?

Susie Renzema track 2 (04:39) You know, my husband is not nearly as offended or outraged by little comments that someone might say, you know, where I’m like, Can you believe?

And he’s like, I didn’t take it that way. Yes. But I wonder if there

Shannon Popkin (04:48) And he’s like, I didn’t take it that way. But I wonder if there

are any any relationships that have felt strange by by your tendency to judge or feel judged.

Susie Renzema track 2 (05:03) I think especially female friendships. I think about if I’m in that that judgy place, if I’m in that place, what’s also going to come out is a lot of

Shannon Popkin (05:03) especially female friendships. I think about if I’m in that that judgy place if I’m in that place what’s also going to come out is a lot of

Susie Renzema track 2 (05:16) complaining.

gossip, I think that all comes out of that. It’s all a byproduct of of feeling judged or of judging other people. Okay, so you’re saying let’s say you you’re going to lunch with a friend and you walk into that restaurant

Shannon Popkin (05:22) I think that all comes out of that. It’s all a by product of of feeling judged or of judging other people. Okay, so you’re saying let’s say you you’re going to lunch with a friend and you walk into that restaurant

all already coming in at a z at a deficit somehow.

Susie Renzema track 2 (05:38) all already coming in as a at a deficit somehow.

is it you already feel judged by this person or you’re just in that mind frame? Maybe you’re in that mind frame. I think another component is judging ourselves. So maybe you’ve had a bad morning,

Shannon Popkin (05:43) is it you already feel judged by this person or you’re just in that mind frame? Maybe you’re in that mind frame. I think another component is judging ourselves. Mm-hmm. So maybe you’ve had a bad morning,

Susie Renzema track 2 (05:56) like your pants were too tight and your hair didn’t turn out or you know, you had crosswords with your husband or one of your kids or you got a text that just kinda set your teeth on edge. Like so you’re just you got a lot.

Shannon Popkin (05:56) like your pants were too tight and your hair didn’t turn out or you know, you had crosswords with your husband or one of your kids, or you got a text that just kinda set your teeth on edge. Like so you’re just you got a lot

going through your head. Feeling like you don’t measure up. And and I mean some of that is legitimate. It’s like

Susie Renzema track 2 (06:11) going through your head. Like don’t measure up. Yes. And I mean some of that is legitimate. It’s like

addiction. It’s like I fell back into that sensation. It’s I I blew it again with my placement. Or, you know, y you you’re addicted to porn or you’re addicted to food. You’re addicted I failed again. Yeah, I I failed again. So there’s that. And then I think the other thing is that

Shannon Popkin (06:16) Addiction. It’s like I fell back into that same sin. It’s I I blew it again with my husband, or you know, you you’ve you’re addicted to porn or you’re addicted to food, you’re addicted drugs and yeah, I failed again and I hear and then I think the other thing is that

Susie Renzema track 2 (06:37) you know, like

Shannon Popkin (06:37) you know like

Susie Renzema track 2 (06:38) you said, there’s this element of comparison in judging and this is a place too where I think that social media cannot be our friend. So, you know, maybe you maybe you were on Facebook or your Instagram and you see that that person that seems to always leave you out, you know, posted a picture and you weren’t included again or, you know, whatever it could be.

Shannon Popkin (06:38) you said there’s this element of comparison in judging and this is a place too where I think that social media cannot be our friend. So, you know, maybe you maybe you were on Facebook or your Instagram and you s see that that person that seems to always leave you out you know, post a picture and you weren’t included again. Or you know, whatever it could be.

sometimes I feel like there’s this seventh grade girl trapped in my almost sixty year old body and she pops out and I just wanna

Susie Renzema track 2 (07:01) sometimes I feel like there’s this seventh grade girl trapped in my almost sixty year old body and she pops out and I just wanna

look at her and say, Go back. You you what are you doing here? You know, we’re past that, but we clearly aren’t past that.

Shannon Popkin (07:10) Look at her and say, Go back. What’s what are you doing here? You know, that’s that. But we clearly aren’t. Yeah.

think so often we feel wrong in the eyes of other people. Like that’s

what judgment is. We feel like we’ve been measured and

Susie Renzema track 2 (07:22) That’s what judgment is. We feel like we’ve been measured and

Shannon Popkin (07:25) found lacking. and I think there’s a lesson in that.

Susie Renzema track 2 (07:28) And I think there’s a lesson in that

like what what happens when we judge each other is we pull away.

Shannon Popkin (07:31) like what what happens when we judge each other as we pull away?

I’ve noticed this with my kids.

Susie Renzema track 2 (07:34) I’ve noticed this with my kids.

I remember asking my son one day, like, do you feel like do you ever feel like I’m

Shannon Popkin (07:36) I remember asking my son one day, like, do you feel like do you ever feel like I’m,

you know, judging you? you know, do you feel like I’m constantly looking for things that are wrong? And he hesitated because he didn’t know if I really wanted the the cr the correct answer. And I was like, No, you can

Susie Renzema track 2 (07:44) You know, do you feel like I’m constantly looking for things that are wrong? And he hesitated ’cause he didn’t know if I really wanted the correct answer. And I was like, No, you can

Shannon Popkin (07:55) speak freely. I wanna know. And he’s like, Well sometimes when you come

When you come down these stairs here, we’re sitting in the room I’m talking about. You come down the stairs and I’m sitting here at my desk and you look over my shoulder and you’re like, What are looking at? What are you what are you doing on the computer? Which we have it set up in this way sp strategically, Susie, so that I can look over this was when my kids were little. we have these desks where they’re facing the wall and I could look over their shoulder and just as a a point of accountability and and that was good, I think.

Susie Renzema track 2 (08:00) here we’re sitting in the room talking about you come down the stairs and I’m sitting here at my desk and you look over my shoulder and you’re like what are you looking at? What are you what are you doing on the computer? Which we have it set up in this way sp strategically, Susie, so that I can look over this was when my kids were little, we have these desks where they’re facing the wall and I could look over their shoulder and just as a point of accountability and and that was good I think.

Shannon Popkin (08:29) because I think there’s a lot of traps that young people can fall into online. But I took his words to heart because he’s like, I feel like you’re always expecting

Susie Renzema track 2 (08:29) There’s a lot of traps that you can fall into online. But I took his words to heart because he’s like, I feel like you’re always expecting.

Shannon Popkin (08:38) that I’m looking at something that I shouldn’t be, or that I’m not doing my homework or that I’m, you know, like there’s there’s just this expectation in in you that I’m gonna be doing it wrong. And that creates tension in relationship. When we’re when we’re just standing there with our little gavel, you know.

Susie Renzema track 2 (08:41) that I’m not doing my homework or that I’m you know, like there’s there’s just this expectation in in you that I’m gonna be doing it wrong. And that creates tension in relationship. When we’re when we’re just standing there with our little gavel, you know,

in midair. Like I’m I’m ready to ready to let the gavel fall at any moment.

Shannon Popkin (08:57) in midair, like I’m I’m ready to ready to let the gavel fall at any moment.

Contrast that with I expect the best out of you. I of course I I you know Jesus I think was the most understanding person. He he did he had many opportunities to nail people for their sin. I mean every day,

Susie Renzema track 2 (09:13) He he did he had many opportunities to nail people. Yeah. I mean, every day.

Shannon Popkin (09:20) all day long, he could have pointed out their sin consistently. And he didn’t like I’m thinking of the woman at the well.

Susie Renzema track 2 (09:24) And he didn’t. Like I’m thinking of the woman at the well.

You know, she he brought up her five husbands and the man that she was living with and he let her change the subject. He didn’t mail her on that.

Shannon Popkin (09:28) You know, she he brought up her five husbands and the man that she was living with, and he let her change the subject. He didn’t nail her on that.

He’s, you know, she diverted and he talked about the something else and then she diverted again. But eventually she left that excited to say, Meet the man who told me everything I ever did. And in some versions there’s an explanate exclamation point at the end of that sentence.

Susie Renzema track 2 (09:36) He’s, you know, she diverted and he talked about the something else and then she diverted again. But eventually she left that excited to say, meet the man who told me everything I ever did. And in some versions, there’s an exclamate exclamation point at the end of that sentence.

He

told me everything I did. Like she’s excited about this. And so what I see in Jesus is

Shannon Popkin (09:54) He told me everything I did. Like she’s excited somehow about this. And so what I see in Jesus is

he wasn’t just standing there with this gavel, right? Have you noticed that in different relationships, like when someone

Susie Renzema track 2 (10:00) he wasn’t just standing there with this gavel, right? Have you noticed that in different relationships, like when someone

Shannon Popkin (10:06) hoping the best in you versus like watching for you to fall.

Susie Renzema track 2 (10:06) hoping the best in you versus like watching for you to fall?

Yeah,

Shannon Popkin (10:10) Yeah,

Susie Renzema track 2 (10:11) I

I’ve got a couple of friends that and one in particular that I mean I can say the really raw, unvarnished stuff to her. And I know that she’s always gonna hear through to my heart

Shannon Popkin (10:11) I’ve got a couple of friends that and one in particular that I mean I can say the really raw unvarnished stuff to her. And I know that she’s always gonna hear through to my heart

Susie Renzema track 2 (10:23) you know, the fact that you’re talking about this stems from something that is hurtful to you or you know what I’m saying? Through the hurt.

Shannon Popkin (10:23) you know, the fact that you’re talking about this stems from something that i is hurtful to you or you know what I’m saying? Yeah, hearing through the hurt.

that.

she’s not gonna make a a complete judgment of you based on what you’re saying in this moment, because she knows the true Susie is going to ultimately respond differently than these words might convey. Right. It’s like she has I think about my relationship.

Susie Renzema track 2 (10:35) she’s not gonna make a a complete judgment of you right based on what you’re saying in this moment because she knows the true Susie is going to ultimately respond differently than these words might convey right it’s like she has I think about my relationship

with her and and it’s a two way street, like I have already decided that I am for her.

Shannon Popkin (10:55) It’s a two way street. Like I have already decided that I am for her and

Susie Renzema track 2 (11:02) And she has decided that she’s for me.

Shannon Popkin (11:02) she has decided that she’s for me.

Susie Renzema track 2 (11:04) you

know, the main ways that I’ve judged people

Shannon Popkin (11:04) you know, the main ways that I’ve judged people

have been out of areas of my own pain and insecurity. Mm. They’ve been areas that feel particularly painful and there are certain things in certain people that I believe today that they’re it’s unintentional. They just

Susie Renzema track 2 (11:09) have been out of areas of my own pain and insecurity. They’ve been areas that feel particularly painful and there are certain things and certain people that I believe today that they’re it’s not intentional. They just

know how to put their finger right on that wound. And and so I recognize today that that most of my

Shannon Popkin (11:27) know how to put their finger right on that wound. And and so I recognize today that that most of my

judgy is coming out of unhealed areas in my own heart. like what?

Susie Renzema track 2 (11:35) judgy is coming out of unhealed areas in my own heart. like whatI was thinking about this knowing that I was gonna talk to you today and I and I remembered something that just happened in February.

without going into a lot of my story, in the last few years, I personally have gained a lot of weight and it’s all rooted in a lot of other stuff, but that’s that’s where it’s at. And so it’s a particular area of insecurity for me. And I’m working through that, but it’s still it’s it’s raw, right?

Susie Renzema track 2 (11:53) without going into a lot of my story, in the last few years, I personally have gained a lot of weight and it’s all rooted in a lot of other stuff, but that’s that’s where it’s at. And so it’s a particular area of insecurity for me. And I’m working through that, but it’s still it’s it’s raw, right?

currently I’m in the largest

Susie Renzema track 2 (12:16) body I’ve ever lived in.

Shannon Popkin (12:19) you’re a beautiful woman.

Susie Renzema track 2 (12:21) tell me now.

Shannon Popkin (12:21) So tell me now

I’ve not known you. I don’t believe to be any other size than you are. I I mean i if I have, I haven’t paid attention. You’re exactly how I only

Susie Renzema track 2 (12:26) size than you are. I I if I have, I haven’t paid attention to that. It’s amazing how many people don’t and that’s really a good thing.

Shannon Popkin (12:34) but I imagine that you walk into a restaurant or something and see someone who knew you before and now

Susie Renzema track 2 (12:41) I

have people that walk right by me. They don’t know who I am. Okay. Sometimes. That’s hard. but the biggest thing that I see

Shannon Popkin (12:46) That’s hard. That’s hard. but the biggest thing that I

Susie Renzema track 2 (12:50) or like I’m I’m learning perception, right? I think I see. you know, like there’s a a cute little

Shannon Popkin (12:53) think I see. you know, like there’s a a cute little

Susie Renzema track 2 (13:00) boutique in the town that I live. And I have walked in there before and

Shannon Popkin (13:06) And

Susie Renzema track 2 (13:08) you just get this look like there’s nothing here that fits you.

Shannon Popkin (13:09) get this look like there’s nothing here that fits you. Wow.

Susie Renzema track 2 (13:12) or You gotta find anything. Yeah. Yeah. I mean it’s or a more

Shannon Popkin (13:14) You gotta find a new boutique. I’m sorry, but that’s

Susie Renzema track 2 (13:19) I

Shannon Popkin (13:19) I

Susie Renzema track 2 (13:20) we recently joined the Y and like turning off the chatter in my head about about that. But I know that comes

Shannon Popkin (13:28) I know that.

Susie Renzema track 2 (13:29) from me, not from anybody else. so I think I think I feel a lot of judgment

Shannon Popkin (13:31) Yeah. so I think I think I feel a lot of judgment.

Susie Renzema track 2 (13:35) about the size of my body.

so many ways that we judge ourselves and feel judged by others because of what we look like

Shannon Popkin (13:39) so many ways that we judge ourselves and feel judged by others because of what we look like

we look at eating as it is something we control. But I’m sorry, but aging is not you know, and there and maybe

Susie Renzema track 2 (13:44) we look at eating as it is something we control. But I’m sorry, but aging is not no you know, there and maybe you

would have the means, all the surgeries and done all the whatever. but wherever

Shannon Popkin (13:50) you would have the means, all the surgeries and done all the whatever. but wherever

we are in life, we’re losing. We’re we’re not going to go to our funerals looking the best we have ever looked in that casket.

Susie Renzema track 2 (14:00) We’re we’re not going to go to our funerals looking the best we have ever looked. No casting

So my husband and I went on a cruise with another couple,

Shannon Popkin (14:05) So my husband and I went on a cruise with another couple,

Susie Renzema track 2 (14:10) And we were all meeting at the pool and we got there first and so we had saved our chairs and this woman and her husband come up and she asked if if there was another chair, And I never said a word, but in my mind I’m just I’m looking at her and I mean she’s just perfectly sculpted everywhere.

Shannon Popkin (14:10) and we were all meeting at the pool and we got there first and so we had saved our chairs and this woman and her husband come up and she asked if if there was another chair, and I never said a word, but in my mind I’m just looking at her and I mean she’s just perfectly sculpted everywhere.

Susie Renzema track 2 (14:32) Legs, arms, chin, no wrinkles, you know.

Shannon Popkin (14:32) legs, arms, chin, no wrinkles, you know,

perfect high perky boobs, you know, bikini, perfect bottom, you know, a flat, flat stomach, and she’s at least my age, maybe older. So I also know that that is all cosmetic. ‘Cause you can tell. And and I am just going to town in my head, right? Just like

Susie Renzema track 2 (14:37) Perfect high perky boobs, you know, bikini, perfect bottom, you know, a flat, flat stomach. And she’s at least my age, maybe older. So I also know that that is all cosmetic. Cause you can tell. And and I am just going to town in my head, right? Just like,

you know, just doing the thing.

Shannon Popkin (15:02) You know, just doing the thing.

Susie Renzema track 2 (15:05) And my friend judge you judging. Judging judging judging. ‘Cause mind you we were on a Christian cruise. So I’m also sitting there

Shannon Popkin (15:05) And my friend Judge you you mean judging her, like like kind of you know, how how puff. okay. And how sitting there

Susie Renzema track 2 (15:15) like, you know, what is going on?

Shannon Popkin (15:18) Well and

that she has to like that she has to have this sculpted body. How much did she spend on that?

Susie Renzema track 2 (15:22) But she has to have the sculpted body. Yeah, I’m just spend on that. Right. I’m just having all the feelings, right? All the thoughts. And my

friend comes and joins us, and we were

Shannon Popkin (15:31) And we’re talking

Susie Renzema track 2 (15:32) talking about something else. It wasn’t like the first thing when she sat down. I was like, well, wait till you tell tell you what I saw, you know? And I ended up retelling this to her because it was in the context of a conversation she were she was we were having, and her reaction was

Can you imagine how insecure she must be to have had to do all that to feel good about herself? And of course, instantly I’m like, my gosh,

Shannon Popkin (15:57) feel good about herself. And of course instantly I’m like, my gosh.

Susie Renzema track 2 (16:02) I’m awful. I’m just awful. But you know, my friend doesn’t struggle in that area. Like she looks to me like sh I’ve known her since we were 15. She looks the same to me. Like she just doesn’t change. She

Shannon Popkin (16:04) But, you know, my friend doesn’t struggle in that area. Like, she looks to me like sh I’ve known her since we were fifteen. She looks the same to me. Like she just doesn’t change. She

she doesn’t struggle with her weight at all. She you know, she’s probably the same size she was in high like that’s not an area of struggle for her. So she can look at something like that with all this compassion, whereas I look at it

Susie Renzema track 2 (16:20) She hasn’t a struggle with her weight at all. She, you know, she’s probably the same size she was in high like that’s not an area of struggle for her. So she can look at something like that with all this compassion, whereas I look at it

w like like I failed, I’m less than. you know, there it’s it comes with so much baggage for more baggage for me than it does for my friend. Does that make sense?

Shannon Popkin (16:34) Wh like like I failed, I’m less than. you know, there it’s it comes with so much baggage for more baggage for me than it does for my friend. Yeah. Yeah. Does that make sense?

It does, yeah. And so I think though we can grow and cultivating that compassion. I think your friend is a great model. for sure. Right? And and so like what can we learn from her? Like she

Susie Renzema track 2 (16:53) I think though we can grow in cultivating that compassion. I think your friend is a great model. for sure. Right? And and so like what can we learn from her? Like she

because I think any of us can look at ourselves and be hypercritical. Like Susie, I think you are a beautiful woman. Like you are gorgeous. And I think a lot of people would look at you and compare and feel That’s just the it right, it goes both ways.

Shannon Popkin (17:04) Because I think any of us can look at ourselves and be hypercritical. Like Susie, I think you are a beautiful woman. Like you are gorgeous. And I think a lot of people would look at you and compare and feel that’s just the way it goes. Right?

It so I don’t think it’s rooted in

Susie Renzema track 2 (17:24) Rooted in

Shannon Popkin (17:24) reality always, the way that we are hypercritical of ourselves. and and there’s there’s a

Susie Renzema track 2 (17:30) And and there’s there’s a a

a selflessness that allows us to show compassion. Because really judging you is all about like we can’t we can’t express this condescending disgust towards someone else without also expressing a superiority, like I I have never, I would never I would never get all that surgery. Like that is just beneath me, you know? Or I’m better than that. Yeah, I’m you know

Shannon Popkin (17:33) A selflessness that allows us to show compassion. Because really judging you is all about like we can’t, we can’t express this condescending disgust towards someone else without also expressing a superiority. Like I I have never, I would never, I would never get all that surgery. Like that is just beneath me, you know? Or yeah, I’m, you know.

Clearly I’m not in the moment. I am like I’m I’m betraying my own. Right. But

Susie Renzema track 2 (18:00) Exactly. Right.

Shannon Popkin (18:06) but yeah, I just I see in our Lord Jesus a a deep compassion. Whereas if anyone could judge based on having not participated in the same sin, it’s Jesus because he’s he’s sinless. And and yet he meets people and what’s pent up in his heart is not judgment for them. It’s not criticizing.

Susie Renzema track 2 (18:11) Whereas if anyone could judge based on having not participated in the same sin, it’s Jesus because he’s he’s sinless. And and yet he meets people, and what’s pent up in his heart is not judgment for them, it’s not criticizing,

condemnation. It’s like he wants to show them mercy. And we are his daughters. And and so cultivating in our own hearts this Christ-like just quick.

Shannon Popkin (18:28) Condemnation. It’s like he longs to show them mercy. And we are his daughters. And so cultivating in our own hearts this Christ-like just quickness,

like your friend, like, I I want to show compassion. I want to understand. And I think a lot of that does have to do with letting go of my own

Susie Renzema track 2 (18:41) Like your friend, like, I I wanna show compassion. I wanna understand. And I think a lot of that does have to do with letting go of my own

Shannon Popkin (18:51) hurts and feelings, like finding.

Susie Renzema track 2 (18:53) Like finding

not finding my security in measuring, right? Right. Absolutely. That’s huge. And and you know, I have you know, ha then she and I w

Shannon Popkin (18:55) Not finding my security in measuring, right? And so absolutely that’s huge. And and you know, I have you know, ha then she and I

Susie Renzema track 2 (19:07) went on to have a lengthy conversation about all of this stuff, right? And

and it was interesting because like I said, we were we were on a Christian marriage cruise and and we were sitting

Shannon Popkin (19:11) And and it was interesting because like I said we were we were on a Christian marriage cruise and and we were sitting

Susie Renzema track 2 (19:19) by the pool another day and

Shannon Popkin (19:21) And

just you know, it was the last day at sea, so everybody was at the pool, you know, everyone

Susie Renzema track 2 (19:23) Just, you know, it was the last day at sea, so everybody was at the pool, you know, everyone

was out because we were probably all going home to the frozen tundra. And and we’re sitting there and and we’re, you know, sipping our fruity drinks and we’re just like soaking up the sun and having this wonderful time. And she’s looking around and all of a sudden she says to me, Susie, look around. This is reality. This is reality.

Shannon Popkin (19:30) And and we’re sitting there and and we’re, you know, sipping our fruity drinks and we’re just like soaking up the sun and having this wonderful time. And she’s looking around and all of a sudden she says to me, Susie, look around. This is reality. This is reality.

This is what most women our age look like. This is normal. What what you see that makes you feel less than

Susie Renzema track 2 (19:51) This is what most women our age look like. This is normal. What what you see that makes you feel less than

is not normal. And I was just stunned by that, you know, and and really since then it’s it’s been like a paradigm shift. It’s an area that I just am like, that’s someone else’s choice. You know, that’s someone else’s choice.

Shannon Popkin (20:00) is not normal. And I was just stunned by that, you know, and and really since then it’s it’s been like a paradigm shift. It’s an area that I just am like someone else’s choice. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Someone else’s choice.

Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Just I th I think there is there’s something

wholesome about noticing our common flaws and just the commonality of the ways that we suffer, the ways that we fall. And yet I don’t want that to be the end all. I I think the end all be all is knowing Jesus. Right. And what difference it makes to know him. I mean, that’s what we see consistently in these stories in the gospels where people meet him, like that woman I talked about, like she went to the

Susie Renzema track 2 (20:35) Mm. And yet I don’t want that to be the end all. I I think the end all be all is knowing Jesus. Absolutely. Right? And what’s the difference it makes to know him. I mean, that’s what we see consistently in these stories in the gospels where people meet him, like that woman I talked about. Like she went to the

the well at noon, probably feeling quite judged by her community and and not wanting to be at the well at the same time. Most people would go at

Shannon Popkin (20:55) The well at noon, probably feeling quite judged by her community and and not wanting to be at the well at the same time. Most people would go at at

dusk or whatever. But so she’s there by herself and she leaves, she leaves her bucket. I love that she leaves her bucket. Like she’s just overcome with this joy at meeting Jesus. And there is there’s this new freedom that comes from meeting him. And and I mean

Susie Renzema track 2 (21:06) So she’s there by herself and she leaves she leaves her bucket. I love that she leaves her bucket. Like she’s just overcome with this joy at meeting Jesus. And there is there’s this new freedom that comes from meeting him. And and I mean,

what difference has that made in your life when you look at the ways that you’ve failed, that you’ve your flaws, what difference does Jesus make?

Shannon Popkin (21:24) What difference has that made in your life when you look at the ways that you’ve failed, that you’ve your flaws, what difference does Jesus make?

Susie Renzema track 2 (21:35) Everything.

I mean everything. I I heard John Piper say a long time ago that the older he gets the more the more he’s disgusted at remaining sin, you know? And I I feel

Shannon Popkin (21:52) You know. And I I feel

Susie Renzema track 2 (21:56) that, you know, that you look at yourself sometimes and you’re like, Wow Still, still.

Shannon Popkin (22:02) Still still.

But then I realized that, you know, Christ died for all of that, you know.

Susie Renzema track 2 (22:05) But then I realize that, you know, Christ died for all of that. You know,

he didn’t just die for my past sin. He died for my present sin and my future sin.

when I look at at the fact that, you know, my f I’m forgiven for past, present, and future sin. That when I stop and realize that

That when when the Bible says that God chose me before the foundation of the earth to be his child, that, you know, he set his love on me before I ever even took a breath, before I was ever even a thought, you know.

Shannon Popkin (22:42) You know.

Susie Renzema track 2 (22:46) it has to change everything. If it doesn’t change everything then it what are we doing?

Shannon Popkin (22:52) Well, and I think knowing what’s true about them as well, right? What’s true about them is that Jesus

Susie Renzema track 2 (22:54) Right.

Shannon Popkin (22:59) came to die for their sin as well. You know,

Susie Renzema track 2 (23:01) Absolutely.

Shannon Popkin (23:03) you and me, we are in Christ. And and he yes, he chose us before the foundation of the world and he sent his son in response to our great failings. and and what does he think of us? Well, look at the

Susie Renzema track 2 (23:03) you and me, we are in Christ and and he yes, he chose us before the foundation of the world and he sent his son in response to our great failings. and and what does he think of us? Well, look at the Christ.

Shannon Popkin (23:18) cross. Exactly. That’s how we know what our our Lord thinks about us. And what does he think about these other people who are falling into sin?

Susie Renzema track 2 (23:19) Exactly. That’s how we know a lot what our our Lord thinks about us and what does he think about these other people who are falling into sin?

He sent Jesus. Like Jesus walked among these sinners. He well, he had dinner with anybody who invited him. He wasn’t exclusive. you know, he was so gentle in the way that he responded to sin.

Shannon Popkin (23:28) He sent Jesus. Like Jesus walked among these sinners. He well, he had dinner with anybody who invited him. He wasn’t exclusive. you know, he was so gentle in the way that he responded to sin.

I was just studying the story of Simon the Pharisee, who had this dinner party and the sinful woman, everybody in that community knows her as the sinful woman, and they’re just like, don’t want anything to do with her.

Susie Renzema track 2 (23:44) I was just studying the story of Simon the Pharisee who had this dinner party and the sinful woman everybody in the community knows her as the sinful woman and they’re just like don’t want anything to do with her. Right.

Shannon Popkin (23:56) they don’t want their reputations to be tarnished. They don’t want to have to go through cleansing rituals to be, you know, contaminated by her touching them. And she comes in and she’s touching all over Jesus’ feet. You know, she’s crying on him. She’s wiping his feet with her hair. She’s kissing him.

Susie Renzema track 2 (23:56) they don’t want their reputations to be tarnished, they don’t want to have to go through cleansing rituals to be, you know, contaminated by her, touching them. And she comes in and she’s touching all over Jesus’ feet, you know. Right. She’s crying on him, she’s wiping his feet with her hair, she’s kissing him.

Shannon Popkin (24:14) And in that moment, Jesus had a choice to make. Like this was

Susie Renzema track 2 (24:14) And in that moment, Jesus had a choice to make. Like this was

weirdly inappropriate. Like all that was going on, like I’m sure everyone else in that room was aghast. Like, what’s he gonna do now? Because he’s already under their scrutiny. He’s already been having dinner with sinners and everybody thinks that’s weird. Why are you doing that? Why would you do that? And now he’s being kissed in their presence by a sinner. What’s he gonna do?

Shannon Popkin (24:19) Weirdly inappropriate. Like all that was going on, like I’m sure everyone else in that room was aghast. Like, what’s he gonna do now? Because he’s already under their scrutiny. He’s already been having dinner with sinners, and everybody thinks that’s weird. Why are you doing that? Why would you do that? And now he’s being kissed in their presence by a sinner. What’s he gonna do?

But this woman has just put herself in an extremely vulnerable position.

Susie Renzema track 2 (24:41) But this woman has just put herself in an extremely vulnerable position.

You know, I mean the courage to even enter that room, she wasn’t allowed in there. She was an unwelcome guest. Like they were allowed in the courtyard area of you know, first century arch architecture. They had a little courtyard and and people would go in there and gather and listen to these conversations happening by the f the religious people and these dinner parties. And so that wasn’t weird, but for her being that room was very weird.

Shannon Popkin (24:46) You know, I mean, the courage to even enter that room, she wasn’t allowed in there. She was an unwelcome guest. Like they were allowed in the courtyard area of you know, first century arch architecture. They had a little courtyard and and people would go in there and gather and listen to these conversations happening by the the religious people and these dinner parties. And so that wasn’t weird, but for her to be in that room was very weird.

And then

Susie Renzema track 2 (25:10) And then

to be kissing, you know, making a scene and and her hair being like that. Right, right. That was I mean

Shannon Popkin (25:11) To be kissing, you know, making a scene and and her hair being let down. That was I mean,

I read that s there were some Pharisees who didn’t even didn’t even say their wife’s hair. Like she kept it pinned up even in the privacy of their home. Like that was just very scandalous to let her hair down. And so it’d be like, I I don’t know, what would an equivalent be?

Susie Renzema track 2 (25:20) There were some Pharisees who didn’t even ha didn’t even see their wife’s hair. Like she kept it pinned up, even in the privacy of their home. Like that was just very scandalous. Right. And so it’d be like, I I don’t know what would an equivalent be.

I don’t know. I don’t know. But I I know that yeah, she was doing all manner of wrong things when she was in that room.

Shannon Popkin (25:41) Yeah. Yeah. And I don’t

I don’t know what her intention was in that. I don’t think we we aren’t told. I tend to think she just was forgetting herself. Like she was just overcome.

Susie Renzema track 2 (25:49) She just was forgetting herself. Like she was just overcome. Well,

that overwhelming love that just does sort of throws caution to the wind. Yeah. Yeah. She she she I I think she had come with a premeditated idea of anointing him with this perfume. But here he is reclining and she just anoints his feet and she pulls her hair down to because she didn’t have a towel. She didn’t come planning to do that apparently.

Shannon Popkin (25:58) Yeah. Yeah. She she she I I think she had come with a premeditated idea of anointing him with this perfume. But here he is reclining and she just anoints his feet and she pulls her hair down and to because she doesn’t have a towel. She didn’t come planning to do that apparently.

And so she’s put herself in a really vulnerable position in front of these Pharisees. They’re already predisposed against her. They think of her as a sinner.

Susie Renzema track 2 (26:19) And so she’s put herself in a really vulnerable position in front of these Pharisees. They’re already predisposed against her. They think of her as a sinner.

They’re already predisposed against Jesus also.

Shannon Popkin (26:28) They’re already predisposed against Jesus, also.

They they’re he’s been doing the wrong thing by eating with sinners. And so now the two of them together, they’re lumped together, both of them have are doing something completely inappropriate. She’s kissing him, he’s letting her. Right. And and so he has a choice to make. And and he does not shame her. He does not say

Susie Renzema track 2 (26:30) they they’re he’s been doing the wrong thing by eating with sinners. Right. So now the two of them together, they’re lumped together, both of them have are doing something completely inappropriate. She’s kissing him, he’s letting her. Right. Right. And and so he has a choice to make. And and he does not shame her. No. He does not say

Any other any of the others would be like, Get away from me. Get you know, don’t touch me. You know, I’m gonna have to go through this purification process now. Get away from me, you sinner. And Jesus doesn’t do that. He doesn’t he didn’t do that to her and he does not do that to us. When we come to him, and we remember what is true about us, and that is that we have sinned.

Shannon Popkin (26:54) Any other any of the others would be like, get away from me. Get, you know, don’t touch me. You know, I’m gonna have to go through this purification process now. Get away from me, you sinner. And Jesus doesn’t do that. He doesn’t, he didn’t do that to her, and he does not do that to us. When we come to him, and we remember what is true about us, and that is that we have sinned.

We have done a whole list of wrong things that have put us in the wrong, with a sin debt that we cannot pay. so that is true about us. But what is also true is that our God is merciful, so overwhelmingly merciful. And he receives our kisses, right? He doesn’t

Susie Renzema track 2 (27:17) We have done a whole list of wrong things that have put us in the wrong, with a sin debt that we cannot pay. so that is true about us. But what is also true is that our God is merciful, so overwhelmingly merciful, and he receives our kisses, right? He doesn’t

Shannon Popkin (27:38) he doesn’t push us away. And so I guess then the matter it becomes well, whose eyes matter more.

Susie Renzema track 2 (27:40) And so I guess then the matter it becomes well whose eyes matter more.

Exactly. Like whose judgments matter more. You know, are you gonna go with the little gavels that are being pounded all over the place? like this woman was brave enough to enter a room where everybody was gonna be pounding their little gallows. Right, right. They already were. You know, they weren’t gonna stop. And but she was going to the one.

Shannon Popkin (27:46) Like whose judgments matter more? You know, are you gonna go with the little gavels that are being pounded all over the place? like this woman was brave enough to enter a room where everybody was gonna be pounding their little gavel at her. They already were. You know, they weren’t gonna stop. And but she was going to the one

who had has the authority and whether she fully understood it or not, but she knew he had the power to forgive sin. Like that is the the final gavel.

Susie Renzema track 2 (28:04) Who had has the authority and whether she fully understood it or not, but she knew he had the power to forgive sin. Like that is the the final gavel.

Right. He had the biggest gavel. The biggest gavel. Right. It’s like the final gavel belongs to him. And he dismissed her, saying her sins were forgiven. That was the judge of the world. And made a good example out of her. Yes. He turned it lifted her up. Turned it.

Shannon Popkin (28:14) He had the biggest gavel. The biggest gavel. It’s like, yeah, the final gavel belongs to him. And he dismissed her, saying her sins were forgiven. That was the judge of the world. Letting that go. Yes. She he lifted her up.

Susie Renzema track 2 (28:34) around completely. Yeah. And and what was that example? Like what did she do right?

Shannon Popkin (28:34) Yeah. And and what was that example? Like what did she do right?

Susie Renzema track 2 (28:39) Well, I mean, she lavished her love on him. She gave everything she had for him. And she didn’t she didn’t care

Shannon Popkin (28:47) And she didn’t she didn’t care.

Susie Renzema track 2 (28:50) at all what anybody thought about what she was doing.

Shannon Popkin (28:53) She just she had to just get near him. And she kind of risked it all for for him.

Susie Renzema track 2 (28:53) She just she had to just get near him. And she kind of risked it all. She did. She

Shannon Popkin (29:00) And and so she she elevated him

Susie Renzema track 2 (29:00) did. So she she elevated him as

Shannon Popkin (29:02) I what I love though is that Jesus he welcomes her, he honors her, and he’s predisposed for her, right? He doesn’t look at her the way that everybody else in that room does. He welcomes her. And I wonder if

Susie Renzema track 2 (29:02) I what I love though is that Jesus he welcomes her, he honors her, and he’s predisposed for her, right? He doesn’t look at her the way that everybody else in that room does. He welcomes her. And I wonder if

Shannon Popkin (29:18) We ha we have a lesson, like put ourselves in Simon’s seat, you know, and we’re looking at someone who we’ve we’re already predisposed against them. Like the woman at the pool, maybe, you know, the woman who has sculpted her body, spent thousands of dollars to look a certain way, and we’re predisposed against her and we think certain things about her,

Susie Renzema track 2 (29:18) we ha we have a lesson, like put ourselves in Simon’s seat, you know, and we’re looking at someone who we’ve we’re already predisposed against them. Like the woman at the pool, maybe. You know, the woman who has sculpted her body, spent thousands of dollars to look a certain way. And we’re predisposed against her. And we think certain things about her.

Shannon Popkin (29:42) or swap her out, you know, put somebody else in her seat.

Susie Renzema track 2 (29:42) or swap her out, you know, put somebody else in her seat,

Shannon Popkin (29:46) someone who’s been divorced a bunch of times, someone who’s had a bunch of abortions, someone who is, you know, maybe super wealthy and super you know, extravagant in the way the money that she spends on herself,

Susie Renzema track 2 (29:46) someone who’s been divorced a bunch of times, someone who’s had a bunch of abortions, someone who is, you know, maybe super wealthy and super you know, extravagant the way the money that she spends on herself.

Shannon Popkin (30:01) like you can just tell by the way that she’s dressed or whatever. I don’t know, who else would could we put in that chair, Susie? I I think all those and you could put in

Susie Renzema track 2 (30:05) I don’t know who else could we put in that chair, Susie? I I think all those and you could put in

the the woman that you know had the super amazing career or

Shannon Popkin (30:16) career

Susie Renzema track 2 (30:18) the woman who like

Shannon Popkin (30:18) woman who like

grows all of her own vegetables and makes her own bread and like literally does everything from scratch and you’re over here like, well such and such a grocery store is pretty good sourdough You know, like there’s all a million ways that we can do that. Yeah. I think with the whole influencer culture, there’s a million yeah to put those seals.

Susie Renzema track 2 (30:20) grows all of her own vegetables and makes her own bread and like like literally does everything from scratch and you’re over here like, well such and such a grocery store is pretty good sourdough. I just buy that. You know, like there’s all a million ways that we can do that, you know. And I think I think with the whole influencer culture, there’s a million people to put in those seats.

Shannon Popkin (30:39) Yeah. We ca a a hundred ways that we can critique people. Well don’t you think I I I was just thinking this is

Susie Renzema track 2 (30:42) That we can critique people. Well, and don’t you think I I was just thinking this as we

were talking

that influencer culture has probably also influenced our judginess. Because we can sit there behind a little screen and just judge, judge, judge. And they never know it, right? And they never know that we’re doing that. And we can even say things

Shannon Popkin (30:47) that influencer culture has probably also influenced our judginess. yeah. Because we can sit there behind a little screen and judge, judge, judge, judge. And they never sweep, judge, sweep, judge. And they never know that we’re doing that. And we can even say things

Susie Renzema track 2 (31:06) out loud like you know, or

You know, all kinds of stuff, right? We can have all manner of reactions while we’re just swiping, swiping, swiping. And doesn’t it follow then that if you’re doing that privately, that it would start to influence how you’re reacting to people?

Shannon Popkin (31:09) you know all kinds of stuff, right? We can have all manner of reactions while we’re just swiping, swiping, swiping. And doesn’t it follow then that if you’re doing that privately, that it would start to influence how you’re reacting to people. For sure. Yeah. Because what’s growing

in our heart is picture a balloon that says P R I D E. We’re just blowing into it. Like with all of our hot air. Like it’s just

Susie Renzema track 2 (31:28) picture a balloon that says P R I D E. Blowing it up. Yes, absolutely.

Shannon Popkin (31:37) Expanding. That’s what’s happening when we reinforce these ideas of judgment. It’s it really doesn’t affect the person on the other side of the screen. It does affect

Susie Renzema track 2 (31:37) Expanding. That’s what’s happening when we reinforce these ideas of judgment. Mm-hmm. It’s it really doesn’t affect the person on the other side of the screen. It does affect

Shannon Popkin (31:46) us. We’re growing in our condescending pride. And that’s that’s really this culture that the Pharisees had cultivated was a a a culture of pride, of el of self elevation and and disgust and condescension looking at those sinners over there. And showing off. Yeah, yeah.

Susie Renzema track 2 (31:48) Right. That’s that’s really this culture that the Pharisees had cultivated was a culture of pride, of el of self elevation and and disgust and condescension looking at those sinners over there. And showing off, right? They were

really big show

offs too. I’m so great. I I’ve never I have never well the what was it the Yeah, the phyllacter philosoph they’d yeah, I mean it was just all so showy. It’s so true. The phlacteries and the fringes, Jesus called them out for that.

Shannon Popkin (32:05) yeah, like I’m so great. I I would never, I have never. Yeah, the phylacteries. Yeah, the sound so showy. It’s so true. The phylacteries and the fringes. Jesus called them out for that.

But let’s put ourselves next to the woman in the pool area. And whatever whatever she’s doing wrong, you know,

Susie Renzema track 2 (32:18) But let’s put ourselves next to the woman Again. Yeah. And whatever whatever she’s doing wrong, you know.

Shannon Popkin (32:28) what if we came

with the attitude of Jesus in that setting. Because our our judginess it shuns, it pushes away. We don’t see her as like us in any way. We don’t we don’t

Susie Renzema track 2 (32:32) attitude of Jesus in that setting. Because our our judginess it shuns, it pushes away. We don’t see her as like us in any way. We don’t we don’t

Shannon Popkin (32:44) welcome relationship. We we think of her as that sort. That’s what Simon said as he’s talking about Jesus. He’s like, if he if he knew what sort of woman this one was, you know, what sort that’s a different sort than him. She is

Susie Renzema track 2 (32:44) welcome relationship. We we think of her as that sort. That’s what Simon said as he’s talking about Jesus. He’s like if he if he knew what sort of woman this one was, you know, right sort that’s a different sort than him. She is

other than, you know, it’s like the spiritual othering that he spiritual othering. I like that. And so

Shannon Popkin (32:58) Other than you know, it’s like the spiritual othering that he’s doing. Yeah, yeah. And

so what if we approached it like Jesus, though? Jesus welcomes, he’s open, he is not predisposed. His predisposition is mercy. He would love to show them mercy. He would love to welcome their kisses. He would love there to be a relationship that is

based not on.

Susie Renzema track 2 (33:24) Based not on

Shannon Popkin (33:27) Doing it all right, not on righteousness, but on God’s mercy. Well, you know, when I think about if we go back to the woman at the pool, she was really no different.

Susie Renzema track 2 (33:30) Well, you know, when I think about if we go back to the woman at the pool, she was really no different

than someone that I would swipe. Yeah. Because I never said a word to her. Other than, yes, you can have this chair. You know, and I think that the thing that is most disarming in judgment is when you actually have a conversation with someone. Because I I can tell you about multiple times, you know, that I was at the pool

Shannon Popkin (33:37) Yeah. Because I never said a word to her. Yeah. Other than yes, you can have this chair. Yeah. You know, and I think that the thing that is most disarming in judgment is when you actually have a conversation with someone. Because I I could tell you about multiple times you know, that I was at the pool

and someone came and sat down next to me that looked like I and let’s be honest, wish I did.

Susie Renzema track 2 (33:59) And someone came and sat down next to me that looked like I and let’s be honest, wish I did.

And then we start talking and find out that the size of our bathing suits is the last it’s that like not even an issue. We have all kinds of other things in common, or we have all kinds of other things that we find funny, or you know how you just can have those plop down and start talking to a stranger conversations. And and it’s I I love those examples because they really take

Shannon Popkin (34:06) And then we start talking and find out that the size of our bathing suits is the last it’s that like not even an issue. Yeah. We have all kinds of other things in common. We have all kinds of other things that we find funny or you know how you just can have those plop down and start talking to a stranger conversations and and it’s like I love those examples because they really take

they really take me back to the fact that, you know, largely for at least for me, judgment

Susie Renzema track 2 (34:28) they really take me back to the fact that, you know, largely for at least for me, judgment

happens with people that I a lot of times people that I don’t interact with. And and when the Lord sees fit to have circumstances be that I I get to interact with them, I’m always so wrong. That’s true. Which is such a relief.

Shannon Popkin (34:36) with people that I a lot of times people that I don’t interact with. Yeah, it’s so true. And and when the Lord sees fit to have circumstances be that I I get to interact with them, I’m always so wrong. It’s true. George belief

George Washington, there’s a quote of George Washington where he said, I don’t like that man.

I must get to know him better. It’s such a sweet those are that’s a great quote to live by.

Susie Renzema track 2 (35:04) Yeah. That’s a great those are that’s a great quote to live by.

Shannon Popkin (35:09) It is. Yeah. I don’t like them. There’s something I don’t like about them. I need to understand them more. I need to get closer. Well,

and what’s that old saying, like, you know, you don’t judge a man until you walked a mile on his shoes. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, really, until we understand all the things that go into

Susie Renzema track 2 (35:14) Well, and what’s that old saying, like, you know, you don’t judge a man till you’ve walked a mile in his shoes? And I mean, really, until we understand all the things that go into

making creating what decisions a person has made for themselves. I’m I one of my biggest prayers is is just and it’s been a prayer that I’ve prayed for years, is just, you know, God help me to speak less and listen more.

Shannon Popkin (35:28) making creating what decisions a person has made for themselves. yeah. One of my biggest prayers is is just and it’s been a prayer that I’ve prayed for years, is just, you know, God help me to speak less and listen

more. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Because it it just really changes everything. Well and I think it what what changes everything in my heart is to recognize I’m in their same boat. Like

Susie Renzema track 2 (35:45) Because it it just really changes everything. I think what what changes everything in my heart is to recognize I’m in their same boat. Like

Shannon Popkin (35:56) We’re both in a situation, a desperate situation where we can’t we can’t get out on our own. We need help. We need outside help. And whether I’ve done it all right or I’ve done it all wrong,

Susie Renzema track 2 (35:56) We’re both in a situation, a desperate situation where we can’t we can’t get out on our own. Right. We need help. We need outside help. And whether I’ve done it all right or I’ve done it all wrong

Shannon Popkin (36:07) it really doesn’t matter. What matters is

Susie Renzema track 2 (36:09) What matters is

Shannon Popkin (36:10) there’s

Susie Renzema track 2 (36:10) There’s

Shannon Popkin (36:10) this beautiful, extravagant solution through God’s mercy, through Jesus on the cross.

So I know we didn’t plan to talk about Simon and the woman, but I so enjoyed this conversation with you, Susie.

Susie Renzema track 2 (36:22) Good. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (36:23) Absolutely.

Susie Renzema track 2 (36:23) Absolutely.

Shannon Popkin (36:24) You know, we didn’t talk about your scripture journals. So will

Susie Renzema track 2 (36:28) gosh, yeah.

Shannon Popkin (36:29) you tell us that’s my friend who first introduced us saw some commonality in what we were doing because these journals that you’ve created. So tell us a little bit about those.

Susie Renzema track 2 (36:35) these journals So tell us a little bit about that.

so I have a website called Lettering His Love. And it is I I got captured really by by, you know, Jesus probably eight years ago. I saw a scripture journal plan on Pinterest and decided to just give it a try and kind of fell in love with

that way of interacting with the scripture. And

Shannon Popkin (37:02) And

Susie Renzema track 2 (37:02) shortly thereafter I I decided to try writing my own plans and have been doing that for close to eight years. And so effectively it’s just if for people that don’t know, it’s writing out God’s word in your own handwriting. And that might sound like why, but what I found was that when I when I read the Bible, because I’m familiar with the Bible,

Shannon Popkin (37:06) and have been doing that for close to eight years. Wow. And so effectively it’s just if for people that don’t know, it’s writing out God’s word in your own handwriting. And that might sound like why, but what I found was that when I when I read the Bible because I’m familiar with the Bible,

I tend to s we tend to skip words or fill words in because we’re familiar.

Susie Renzema track 2 (37:27) I tend to s we tend to skip words or fill words in because we’re familiar

instead of slowing down and really savoring what we’re reading. And when I started writing it in my h own handwriting, there would be one word or a repeated word that would just and I I’ve described it this way, it’s like that word almost becomes electric. It’s like it’s jumping off the page at you. And that became a means then of so the

Shannon Popkin (37:34) instead of slowing down and really savoring what we’re reading. And when I started writing it in my h own handwriting, there would be one word or a repeated word that would just and I I’ve described it this way, it’s like that word almost becomes electric. It’s like it’s jumping off the page at you. And that became a means then of so the

the journaling was just the the writing out of God’s word, but in

Susie Renzema track 2 (37:55) The journaling was just the the writing out of God’s word, but in

doing that and in noticing certain words or themes or you know, whatever it would might be, it would prompt a response from me that would become like a dialogue. I tell people all the time

Shannon Popkin (38:00) doing that and in noticing certain words or themes or you know, whatever it would might be, it would prompt a response from me that would become like a dialogue I tell people all the time,

you know, is in terms there are spiritual disciplines that are not an option.

Susie Renzema track 2 (38:15) you know, is in terms there are spiritual disciplines that are not an option,

but then there are things that are. And I I always look at it like most people struggle to just open up the Bible and start reading and they don’t know where to start and or they read it and they’re like, it feels like it went in one ear and back out the other. And so what I always say is if you go shopping for a dress

Shannon Popkin (38:20) But then there are things that are. And I I always look at it like most people struggle to just open up the Bible and start reading. And they don’t know where to start and or they read it and they’re like, it feels like it went in one ear and back out the other. And so what I always say is if you go shopping for a dress

for an event, you take multiple dresses in the fitting room and you come out with one.

Susie Renzema track 2 (38:39) For an event, you take multiple dresses in the fitting room and you come out with one.

I always say with journaling, try it on, you know, and it might not be for you. And some people it’s not, but some people it’s like, wow, this totally changed the way I read the Bible. So

Shannon Popkin (38:46) I always say with journaling, try it on, you know, and it might not be for you. Some people it’s not. Yeah. But some people it’s like, wow, this totally changed the the Bible. So

I love it. Well, that is one of the ways that I study the Bible is journaling it and I find like I have to even tell myself, no no no, use your cursive, you know, like

Susie Renzema track 2 (39:07) And like I have to even tell myself, no, use your cursive, you know.

Shannon Popkin (39:12) slow down. And there is something about

There were scribes in in the Bible days. They wrote out God’s word. That’s they didn’t have copy machines. But they were the ones, they were the teachers too of the law. And so there’s something about using my hand to retrace the words of God and that helps me to receive those words somehow. There’s something really I and what I do is like just jot down all my thoughts, my my questions and my thoughts,

Susie Renzema track 2 (39:17) In the Bible days, they wrote out God’s word. That’s they didn’t have cupping machines, but they were the ones they were the teachers too of the law, and so there’s something about using my hand to retrace the words of God, and that helps me to receive those words somehow. There’s something really I and what I do is like just jot down all my thoughts, my my questions and my thoughts.

Shannon Popkin (39:44) in the margin as I’m as I’m journaling. I’m sure you give instructions too in your what what’s the name again? Lettering his love. Lev

Susie Renzema track 2 (39:46) As I’m journaling, I’m sure you give instructions too in your w what’s again? Lettering his love.

Shannon Popkin (39:52) lettering his love. so yeah, if you haven’t tried it, it’s like take one of those dresses into the fitting room and give Susie’s a try. we’ll put a link in the show notes.

Susie Renzema track 2 (39:54) Yeah, if you haven’t tried it, it’s like take one of those dresses into the fitting room and give students a try. we’ll put a link in the show notes.

Shannon Popkin (40:02) Thank

you. Thank you.

Susie Renzema track 2 (40:02) Thank you.