Please note: This transcript has lots of error in selecting which speaker is saying what.

Michelle Nietert (00:00)
Well we are so excited and blessed to have Michelle Needert here with us at Live Like It's True. Michelle welcome thank you so much for having me, Shannon. Like literally having me

Shannon Popkin (00:00)
Michelle, welcome. Thank you so much for having me, Shannon. We are in the same room right now, which is so fun. you're here for the speak up conference from Texas. Where in Texas do you hail from? The Dallas, Texas area. Dallas area. Okay, Allen. Allen Plano. Wow, that's great.

Michelle Nietert (00:13)
Which is so fun. Yeah. I have a counseling center in the Allen area. So kind of Allen Plano, the fastest growing part of the country right there. Yeah. And so you have been a professional counselor for over twenty five years and

Shannon Popkin (00:28)
And so you have been a professional counselor for over twenty five years and have co authored a number of best selling books, including Loved and Cherished, which you co authored with Lynn Cowell, who's also been a guest here on the show. And managing your emojis and God I feel scared, which my puppy could use right now. That's right. He's time with the thunder, isn't he?

Michelle Nietert (00:36)
Loved and Cherished, which you co authored with Lynn Cowell, who's also been a guest. awesome. Right now, that's right. He's having a hard time with the thunder, isn't he? But thunderstorm. God I feel scared and God I feel mad. Or sad. Sad. Mad is coming. We've been talking about it. Eventually it will come, yes. Yeah, so

Shannon Popkin (00:53)
We have a thunderstorm and he is like laying on your feet right now. Right or sad. I'm sorry. is it coming? Okay. All right. Yeah. So number of great books, but today we're gonna talk about judging. Because as a mental health professional, I imagine you have people stop in your office who are feeling judged by somebody who are judging others. So

Michelle Nietert (01:19)
who are judging others. So I pulled together, you helped me put together some questions, thinking through some of my own scenarios in my own life.

Shannon Popkin (01:21)
I love doing that for especially I have a lot of parents of adult children that work

Michelle Nietert (01:28)
I love doing that for especially I have a lot of parents of adult children that I work with specifically with so many adult kids in the home, just coaching them and holding space for them. Or like me, almost adult children. You know, I have a fifteen and a seventeen year old. So that's I mean there's a lot of judging that happens

Shannon Popkin (01:33)
specifically, with so many adult kids in the home, just coaching them and holding space for them. Yeah.

Michelle Nietert (01:46)
in that time frame.

Michelle Nietert (01:48)
And there's a lot of desire not to judge, but we don't know how. No. So let's kind of start with that. Okay. Let's say as a parent I am judging one of my kids. You know, maybe one of my kids has

Shannon Popkin (01:51)
I know, I know. You know, maybe one of my kids has adopted some really bad habits. They're not finishing their you know, they're gonna get fired. They aren't finishing their college courses. You know, there's a real when we talk about judging, we're always talking about right and wrong, right? So we're

Shannon Popkin (02:19)
I think that's

Michelle Nietert (02:20)
on your temperament. I think some people's brains naturally look at things in a more either or and like my brain works very differently than that. my brain kind of thinks could instead of should. Well, and I would say though that is you're you're setting that aside from judging. But when we're

Shannon Popkin (02:22)
But when we're talking about judgment, we're talking like when you think of a judge, you think of guilty not guilty. You're talking about morality. You're talking about right and wrong.

Michelle Nietert (02:41)
We're talk like when you think of a judge, you think of guilty, not guilty, you're talking about morality, you're talking about right and wrong. and so when we when we enter into the sin of judging, we are saying you're you're it's it's different than being a critique. You know, I can critique decor

Shannon Popkin (02:47)
I can critique I critique your decor. Right, right, right. So so we can you know, I can I can critique the way you're dressed. Evaluation. Evaluation. So judgment is where you're talking about okay, this and I think this is good for us to clarify. I th yeah, define our terms, define our terms.

Michelle Nietert (02:59)
decor. I can critique your decor today. Very well and I love it. So that's good. Okay, yes. Evaluation is what you're saying there. Okay, but judgment is where you're talking about okay, this and I think this is good for us to clarify for people because when we're

Shannon Popkin (03:14)
Because when we're judging, we're we're not just

Shannon Popkin (03:16)
saying I don't like what you're doing, we're saying you're you've done something wrong. Like you've crossed a line. And whether or not that is a line from God, like we are seeing a line that you have crossed. So like if you are not finishing that course, you are like maybe my adult child is has moved in with someone that they're living with, maybe they have an addiction, you know. And so as a mom,

Shannon Popkin (03:41)
I have this temptation and and by the way, none of those fit my exact children. So but we're dealing with situations.

Michelle Nietert (03:42)
I have this temptation and and by the way, none of those fit my Yeah, yeah, that's okay. Yeah, yeah. We're being careful here to make sure that while we're dealing with situation that we don't without our kids permission reveal too much. But yeah. So so none of those are on the docket for me right now, but I'm interested. The judge, yeah. There we go. But

Shannon Popkin (03:52)
Right, right, right. Yeah. So so none of those are on the docket for me right now, but Docket I'm interesting I use that as a but yeah. But but there are things that I'm very tempted to to judge my adult children. here's a universal.

Michelle Nietert (04:07)
Well, why don't we take a universal sit scenario like something we both already talked about if that's okay? Because I don't think any of our kids would care 'cause like all kids do this. And that is most of us think our kids, is this a judgment issue? Should pick up their stuff and they don't. Or make an appointment and they don't. Let's take something we can really use. Or

Shannon Popkin (04:17)
Is this a judgment issue? Yeah. Or could we could we just up the ante just a little bit so it feels like there's more of a cost? Yeah. What about they have stopped going to church?

Michelle Nietert (04:28)
Just a little bit feels like there's more of a cost. Yeah. That's a great one to use. Okay. I love that. Okay. So why don't can we do a role play with this? Okay. Can I be the counselor? Please. Or coach? Okay. And so you've come to me and you said, I'm concerned

Shannon Popkin (04:36)
Yeah. Okay. Please. Or coach? Yeah. Okay.

Michelle Nietert (04:44)
my kid is not going to church. Okay. I how do you feel about that?

Shannon Popkin (04:47)
And I feel this visceral like I I have raised you differently. I have taught you that this is what God asks of his people that they gather and it's right to do so. And you are wrong. And I am struggling. Like, what do I do with these emotions? Every time I see you, what I want to say is, Why weren't you in church on Sunday? And so and but let's start with that right there. if you're

Michelle Nietert (04:53)
I have taught you that this is what God asks of his people that they gather and it's right to do so and you are wrong and I am struggling. If you're okay with starting right there. So first of all, I wanna I wanna just help you maybe listen to yourself for a minute right there and hear what you said. Because as much as this is about

Shannon Popkin (05:18)
Hear what you said. Because as much as this is about them going to church, I think this is about, and this is where and I if I get in too deep, you stop me, okay? Where we as moms feel like I have failed, and maybe I didn't do something right

Shannon Popkin (05:34)
if you're not doing the things I raised you to do. Yeah. Right? Projecting. So how do I manage? See, I think before you even work on the other, because that emotion

Michelle Nietert (05:34)
Right? So how do I manage see, I think before you even work on the other, because that emotion feels too much intensity. And then and it's also it puts it it gives it an icky feeling because you just got you're you're it's not when we confront someone in love, we want to be in total love. And we can't be in total love.

Shannon Popkin (05:45)
feels too much intensity. Mm-hmm. And we can't be in total love if we've got our own skin in the game a little bit. That's so good. So so first we're almost like decoupling ourselves from whether it's a spouse or a child. So it's like I am not dealing with my own deal

Michelle Nietert (05:58)
If we've got our own skin in the game a little bit there.

Shannon Popkin (06:10)
with your own first. you

Michelle Nietert (06:10)
Gotta deal with your own first. you know, mentally healthy kids are raised by mentally healthy parents. So when we start feeling a lot of it,

Shannon Popkin (06:14)
We start feeling a lot of it.

Michelle Nietert (06:16)
the first thing I have the parent do, and I think I really learned this. I was thinking about this recently, even not from the therapy realm, but Paul Tripp's got a book called Age of Opportunity about teenagers. And he kind of says, look in the mirror first. You know, so

Shannon Popkin (06:25)
Age of opportunity for teenagers. You know, so the first thing is what is making me feel so strongly about this and how does this have anything to do with me? Are two great questions. I think we as parents can ask first if we're experiencing judgment of our kids. And even if we are, even if this is something we want to eventually talk with them about, I think that gets us out of the Holy Spirit role a little bit, which is so tempting to get into. Yeah. and we don't want to be in the Holy Spirit role with our children.

Michelle Nietert (06:31)
The first thing is what is making me feel so strongly about this and how does this have anything to do with me are two great questions. It's not a good place to be with our especially ad we're talking about adults. You know, we have to be the vessels of the Holy Spirit. Like, but there's a point in which we don't want to parent our kids anymore. We want God to be the parent of our kids. And and that is a very interesting place. So if this were a twelve year old, I would have a very different counsel towards you than if this is your twenty one year old. Right. Because our rules change. They really do.

Shannon Popkin (06:55)
You know, we have to be the vessels of the Holy Spirit, like but there's a point in which we don't want to parent our kids anymore. Mm-hmm. Right. Our roles change.

Michelle Nietert (07:23)
And and your job

Shannon Popkin (07:25)
And your job

Michelle Nietert (07:25)
it's almost like you get fired from one of your jobs. Yeah. Yeah. Well and as children

Shannon Popkin (07:28)
Yeah. Yeah. Well and as children I'm I'm sorry, as a parent of younger children, it is my job to I I don't play God in their in their life. It's job to train them up in the way they're gonna go. Right. They're gonna go to church. Yes, yeah. But when they get and you

Michelle Nietert (07:36)
I don't play there. No, but it's your job to train them up in the way they're gonna go, so they're gonna go to church. You know, but when they get and you and everybody has to decide what age this is. I don't even know if it's always and you know, we talk about this a lot in the counseling field and in different states it's a different age legally in different states. In some ages it's sixteen, like you can't be held legally irresponsible for a lot of things with your kids. Some ages it's eighteen. It was so interesting. I was listening to Anna Gardner's memoir. Did you know you had to have parental consent till twenty one back in the seventies? I had no idea.

Shannon Popkin (07:47)
You we talk about this lot in the counseling field. And in different states, it's a different age legally in different states.

Shannon Popkin (08:06)
Parental consent for married no. If you were twenty one or think about it, we we're Who is who is Anna Gardner? she's the barefoot contestant.

Michelle Nietert (08:07)
To get married. If you weren't 21 or older. So think about it. We we're nudging this age down.

Michelle Nietert (08:16)
She has a new memoir out. She it's a cooking show. She had like a cooking show on HD TV. She just it it's just an interesting book I've been listening to. But when she told when she said that, I was like

Shannon Popkin (08:16)
But when she told when she said that I was like, We change the age. We just keep going down. That book Do Hard Things, they talk about all these seventeen year olds who like were leading movements and you know, doing it's like so we we really have raised that age in some ways and we've we've

Michelle Nietert (08:26)
We change the age, we just keep going down. That book Do Hard Things, they talk about all these seventeen year olds who like were leading movements and you know Yeah. It's like so we we really have raised that age in some ways and we've we've extended adolescence and so we're playing, Well, I think that's where for each child

Shannon Popkin (08:40)
Extended adolescence and so we're playing, think that's where for each

Michelle Nietert (08:45)
I think the first thing is we talk about this, even 'cause we're talking about adult kids. I think that you have to kind of determine when your child is an adult. for us, we've kind of told them if you want to do whatever you want and you don't want to answer to us at all, then you cannot be financially dependent on us in any way. At that point, you're an adult to us. So even though I've got a 17 year old who in two weeks, I think is gonna be, I don't even think it's two weeks, is gonna be 18 years old.

Shannon Popkin (08:59)
If you wanna do whatever you want and you don't wanna answer to us at all, then you cannot be financially dependent on us in any way. Okay. Okay. That and you gotta be careful with this, because you know, it if you say that in anger, you're chays she and I had a moment.

Michelle Nietert (09:18)
That and you gotta be careful with this because you know, in if you say that in anger, you're chays she and I had a moment like this once where she responded back in anger and said, Fine, then I'm just gonna do what I want and I'm I don't want anything from you and I don't want that kind of detachment. And I started crying and then she started crying and I said, I'd hate that. That's not who we are. That's not the kind of relationship we're building here. That that's not the goal.

Shannon Popkin (09:25)
This once where she responded back in anger and said, Fine, then I'm just gonna do what I want. I'm I don't want anything from you. And I don't want that kind of detachment. Yeah. Yeah. It's for you to resent my influence. I wanna I wanna provide for you well in this quasi adult stage you're in where you're still financially dependent on us, some. And then I wanna

Michelle Nietert (09:42)
and then I wanna I want my influence to be well received in a perfect world without sin that you know in each of one of us it would work perfectly, but it doesn't. And that's the first thing I would say if I were gonna kind of back all this up, is so the things we have to answer is what is judgment?

Shannon Popkin (09:55)
I want my influence to be well received. In a perfect world without sin, that you know, in each of one of us it would work perfectly, but it doesn't. You know, what is sin versus what is a preference? John Townsend and Henry Cloud taught that in the boundaries with in day marriage. Like there are things that are like you you really need to look at in a mate that are sin in their life.

Michelle Nietert (10:10)
You know, messy is an example of a preference versus a sin for the most part. we turn a lot of secondary issues like I mean you could make a case that living like

Shannon Popkin (10:24)
versus preference. Medicine is an example preference versus a sin. Yeah. For the most part. Yeah. think we turn a lot of secondary issues like I mean you could make a case that living like a complete slob is sinful, right? In some I don't know. You could build your case from sc

Michelle Nietert (10:38)
Yeah, you can build a case for almost a lot of things. because that's where I think we need coaches, ministers, small groups to kind of help us gain perspective because we can snowball stuff into our own self righteousness.

Shannon Popkin (10:43)
Coaches, ministers, small groups to kind of help us gain perspective because we can snowball stuff into our own self-righteousness. We can turn these secondary, tertiary issues into first order, like this is all at war because you left your clothes on the floor, or you're not going to church, or

Michelle Nietert (10:59)
You're not going to church or, I do think we need to look at the teaching of even that scripture, for example. And this is such a complex issue. So you've gotta look at how you how this is about you 'cause instead about them. But then I also think you need to look at like, is this really a sin? Now

Shannon Popkin (11:06)
No, because I think there's a spirit of the law and a letter of the law. And the letter of the law is you attend church every week. The spirit of the law is you're not connected to spiritual community in any way. Yeah. So that's a question sometimes I ask parents when kids are kind of fail flailing. And I because let me tell you what, young adults, I think it's really hard. I remember

Michelle Nietert (11:17)
I remember I didn't get married 'til I was thirty two and I remember the challenges

Shannon Popkin (11:35)
I didn't get married until I was 32, and I remember the challenges of a church home because even though this is gonna blow most of y'all away a bit, because it blew me away when I realized this. And this is Barn's statistic, 40% of mem attendees at a church at any one time are single. Wow. But we don't we don't do church like that. And and some churches gear more towards reaching singles than others. And and I talk to young adults all the time in my office who want community.

Shannon Popkin (12:04)
But they struggle, like either they're gonna be in a big place with a lot of them, and then it kind of feels hard, you know, because it is so big, and then it kind of feels like a meat market sometimes. Yeah, yeah. Or they're gonna be in a small place a s or you know, a smaller place, and then they're gonna feel like there's not a lot of single people. Yeah. I think

Michelle Nietert (12:08)
And then it kind of feels hard, you know, because it is so big. And then it kind of feels like a meat market sometime to them too.

Shannon Popkin (12:25)
what you're building is empathy. Yes. And I think before we get to judgment conversations or conversations that could have some judgment in

Shannon Popkin (12:33)
a

Michelle Nietert (12:33)
I do think that's another thing we look at. Jesus always approached with such compassion. And I think as if we're looking at a sin in our child's life, you know, I I think the first thing I did was the log spec, right? Like the log is I didn't do a good parent, I need to work through my own self stuff. That's the log. What she's saying is Jesus taught a sermon and he said that

Shannon Popkin (12:57)
Do not judge. That's everybody wants to quote that. and but what he he wasn't saying, don't ever tell someone that they have something wrong in their life. He just said, get that speck or get that y you know, it says if you have a log sticking out of your eye and you're trying to lean in and find the little speck in someone else's eye. Often that log sticking out of our eye is pride.

Michelle Nietert (13:05)
He just said, get that speck or get that you know, it says if you have a log sticking out of your eye and you're trying to lean in and find the little speck in someone else's eye, often that log sticking out of our eye is pride. It is, and it's a or or even like it can't even be like self-loathing. It can be something else, insecure our own parental insecurity. because because especially well, and here's why, and I love to quote and I think she's been on your show before. My sister Melissa Spolstra in one of her books said

Shannon Popkin (13:23)
insecure our own parental insecurity. because because that's a big one. Well and here's why and I love to quote and I think she's been on your show before my sister Melissa Spallstrong said your parenting report card is not how your kids turned out. It's what you did to raise your children.

Michelle Nietert (13:36)
Your parenting report card is not how your kids turned out. Okay. And that's convicting enough if you ever lose lost your cookies with your kid like I have before, you know. But then I get a family. Yeah. And so but it's great if I got an F Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (13:41)
Okay. And that's convicting enough. Right. Then I get a failing score, right? Yeah. And it works both ways. They may turn out great if I got an F. Yeah. And I might get an A and they may you know it's just our lives. They might because at some point there's an H of

Michelle Nietert (13:56)
They may and and we know this 'cause we look at different siblings and and the choices they make because at some point there's an age of accountability and that's what we were just talking about. That's a little confusing, right? Like what is the age of accountability where they answer and you don't answer for those things? And it's a struggle. So I would I love the things we're talking about. The other thing I think we really have to do too, before we even go there is

Shannon Popkin (14:05)
Yeah.

Michelle Nietert (14:19)
is and I I mean this stops parents in my tracks still to the day. In the office I will say, have you prayed about this for more than a week?

Shannon Popkin (14:28)
Mm-hmm. And because a lot of times our desire for conversation is an emotional reaction. Yeah. And that is not a place you want to start a conversation with anybody. You know, we're tiptoeing into control girl territory. Like you know, we we wanna one of the ways that

Michelle Nietert (14:41)
Yeah, we are.

Shannon Popkin (14:45)
we as women particularly can control is with our words. We're very relational. God made us this way and we use our tongues to try and get control. And so I love that suggestion. And can I add just a little bit to it?

Michelle Nietert (14:53)
Suggestion and can I add just a little bit to Yeah, go for it. If you because it's something you said earlier, if we're gonna be praying, you know, let's take a week and pray, I mean I might commit to it. I don't think the week is enough. That's why I was kind of joking about

Shannon Popkin (14:57)
If you 'cause it's something you said earlier, if we're gonna be praying, you know, let's take a week and pray. I know I mean commit to it. Like don't just

Michelle Nietert (15:09)
that. I mean I think it before you because here's the thing I think. I think this is so true with husbands too. You know, I mean, I learned this

Shannon Popkin (15:17)
Yeah, I mean I like this.

Michelle Nietert (15:18)
early in the marriage counseling office. If I want something to change on my husband, I can put the pressure on him and usually he's gonna be like, You're not gonna control me, so he's gonna push back. But if my husband is a man of God who's listening to the Holy Spirit, I would rather get the Holy Spirit involved in that. And then if the Holy Spirit doesn't get involved, can I trust God enough to realize this either isn't that and this is gonna come to this kid the issue with kids in church the right season.

Shannon Popkin (15:27)
Yes. The right season for him to address it, there might be a lesson he's trying to teach that wouldn't be learned if I got involved in it. Or

Michelle Nietert (15:43)
Or It doesn't build the confidence of faith in our kids when it comes from us the way it does when it comes from the Lord. There's this story where Hagar has put her son under a bush and she's a bowshot away. And the text I mean they're in a desperate situation and she is wailing. She says the text says that she is crying out to God. But you know what it says? It says that God heard Ishmael. Like

Shannon Popkin (15:51)
It doesn't build the confidence of faith in our kids. Exactly. She says the text says that she is crying out to God, but you know what it says? Like God heard Ishmael and he's dying of thirst, so he can't be crying very loud.

Michelle Nietert (16:16)
So this is a God who leans low when our kids are away from us and he's close enough to hear That's how close the Lord is. And God wanted to be the God of Ishmael. God wants to be the God of whatever child, that's right. My kids your kids. That's right. I love this.

Shannon Popkin (16:20)
So this is a God who leans low when our kids are away from us. And He's close enough to hear That's how close the Lord is. God wants to be the God of Michelle's kids, my kids, your kids. And so I love this. Let's pray for them. But what I what I was gonna suggest also is when I pray for someone that I'm bothered by what they're doing in their life, what's helpful for me? is to get on my knees and picture my loved one beside me on their knees, like the two of us and pray in plural. Because there is never something in their life that is not in my life too. In some, you know, some way. You know, either I have done what they have done. Like there's no sin that I have not committed. And so pray in plural. And I think there's just that helps me position myself

Michelle Nietert (16:47)
is to get on my knees and picture my loved one beside me on their knees. Like the two of us and pray in plural.

Shannon Popkin (17:11)
in humility before.

Michelle Nietert (17:11)
in humility before I approach this person.

Shannon Popkin (17:13)
I approach this person.

Michelle Nietert (17:15)
it takes the fruit of the Holy Spirit, and some of our kids

Michelle Nietert (17:19)
are like they're seeds. They haven't been believers walking with the Lord very long. So when we think about both the undeveloped brain and the fruit being where it is in development, you know, a lot of us are looking for vineyards at eighteen, and that's not very realistic. We've to have

Shannon Popkin (17:19)
We've got to have this longer perspective ba on who they're going into to becoming, but also what God is doing. That's what I hear you saying. And when we look at the story of both Eve and Sarah, the text

Michelle Nietert (17:37)
Yeah. And who they're going into to become but also what God is doing. Yeah. And when we look at the story of both Eve and Sarah, the text says that their husband listened to the voice of the wife and found

Shannon Popkin (17:48)
says that their husband listened to the voice of the wife and fell into sin. And so in both of those instances, with Eve it was eating the fruit. With Abraham it was taking this other wife, you know, the whole that's the Hagar situation. So and so this is though both of those situations you have a woman talking and and someone listening to her instead of listening to God. And so the I love that that's where you're bringing us because he is completely merciful.

Michelle Nietert (17:54)
And so in both of those instances, with Eve it was eating the fruit, with Abraham it was taking this other wife, you know, the whole Higgars. Created a whole big mess for that crew.

Michelle Nietert (18:18)
He is so kind and so compassionate and he will though bring them into situations that will help to train them and and maybe that's what he's doing and and the Lord just maybe needs to put us on mute, especially with adults. You know, and that's the thing, as When we pray, I find that when I'm praying, I come to a place of not mostly. Isn't that interesting? That's kind of a rhyme, right? Like I when I'm praying, I'm generally not saying as much even. And I think that's because I it does give the space for the Lord to work. And

Shannon Popkin (18:37)
place of not mostly saying. Mm-hmm. And

Michelle Nietert (18:55)
every once in a while, God opens this door and you can just tell the door's been open to have a conversation.

Shannon Popkin (18:55)
And when I do that, I do think some skills would be good. And the biggest skill I want to give every parent is curiosity. That's what we use in the counseling office, and it just kind of removes judgment. Like to say, why aren't you going to church? my gosh, they don't want to answer that. I can just tell you. But like, tell me a little bit.

Shannon Popkin (19:19)
What it's been like for you as you visited churches. Mm-hmm. What's that been like for you? Yeah. And hearing about that? Tell me about what's hard on Sunday morning if you thought I mean I deal with this with adults in my counseling office who are like since the pandemic, let's get a little real here.

Michelle Nietert (19:35)
you know, we were going to church online And I thank God that they broadcast this stuff now. But the temptation of the broadcast can keep you out of any kind of real authentic

Shannon Popkin (19:46)
connected community today. So what I hear you saying is like let's look at what is the actual thing. Like when I'm bothered that my you know, I'm judging my child for not going to church. There's something like what is it that God is asking of them? what's the heart of the law? And how can we

Michelle Nietert (19:52)
the heart of the law? Yeah. And how can we come to them with curiosity. So let's let's just review what we've talked about. Okay. First we have said let's decouple from our kids.

Shannon Popkin (20:02)
come to them with curiosity.

Shannon Popkin (20:09)
call it? Detach

Michelle Nietert (20:10)
So let's disconnect, let's detach our story from their story, which is very hard to do. They're separate humans with separate stories, with separate purposes.

Shannon Popkin (20:13)
their story. Okay. Separate. It's very hard to do. if it's church, if it's finances, if it's the messy room, is that about me or is that about them? And if it's about me then I have my work to do. If it's about them and I prayed and

Michelle Nietert (20:20)
If it's about them and I've prayed and the Lord opens the door, and then we're we got to approach.

Shannon Popkin (20:34)
Then we're we got to approach, Pray first, right? Yeah. pray a lot. And pray in plural. Yeah. Right? I think that's really beautiful. I've never heard that before. Pray about us. And then go with curiosity, right?

Michelle Nietert (20:38)
Yeah. A lot. Pray a lot. Yeah. I thought I think that's really beautiful. I like that idea. Yeah. Yeah. Well well, I would say before that, wait for an opening wait for an open door. Don't make an open door.

Shannon Popkin (20:52)
Okay.

Michelle Nietert (20:54)
timing and setting are critical to crucial conversations with anybody we we know or love.

Shannon Popkin (20:56)
Do you think Jesus does that with us?

Shannon Popkin (21:05)
Does he ever force like just I mean, like that just hasn't been my experience? It's usually a boundary invader. And and if he is, it's really important. Then there's something I feel like that's on the kingdom's agenda. And then he gets my call too. I mean, I'm not gonna say he's never put me in a crisis. That is very true. But once he puts me in that crisis, it's like in that moment when I am on my knees and I'm ready to hear from him, right? That is the thing, is is I think that your child

Michelle Nietert (21:28)
And that is the thing, is is I think that your children like they there are these moments that they do come to you now. Here's what you I do not want you to do. When they come to you in their moment of vulnerability, do not have stored up your agenda and hit with it all. You know? Well, I've been waiting for this and let's talk about this, this and this and this. No. But here's the thing. I thought Yes, it is a different demeanor. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (21:35)
These moments that they do come to you. Well, I've just been waiting for this. Let's talk about this. This is No, but I I can say it's a it's a completely different demeanor. When when they are just like, you know, I just had this happen with one of my kids. I gave one of them a book that I wanted them to read, you know, like we moms.

Michelle Nietert (22:00)
I'm laughing. I think I could go to therapy for the books my dad tried to give to me.

Shannon Popkin (22:02)
We send the s we send the the book, the sermon, the whatever. And and you know what? And I could just tell. That was not

Michelle Nietert (22:09)
Yeah. gave the book. Yes. And then the next day I was walking in the mall and I was just praying out loud because I'm like nobody can hear me. And I just I love that out loud and I said,

Shannon Popkin (22:10)
And I just prayed out loud and I said, God, my child needs to hear from you. And and that can happen with a book, a sermon, it can happen with a leaf.

Michelle Nietert (22:18)
God, my child needs to hear from you. And and that can happen with a book, a sermon, it can happen with a leaf that falls beside them. You don't need me. You don't

Shannon Popkin (22:26)
that falls beside them. You don't need me, you don't need my agenda. You don't you are so powerful and all my child needs is just a moment from you to to break their heart and to show them what's true. And so like

Michelle Nietert (22:32)
And all my child needs is just a moment from you to to break their heart and to show them what's true. And so And it could be a supernatural moment, but here's what I think a lot of times when I'm praying, somebody else does the job for me and it is so much better received from them. I'm grateful that my kids are in enough community that that occurs. Like, you know, like there's a mentor or there's a teacher or there's a a minister at the church or there's somebody who they're in a ministry that oversees them.

Shannon Popkin (22:46)
So much better received now. And when they say it, like my mom said this to me, and I'm that was the same way. There was a pastor's wife who could tell me exactly what my mom told me. I'd roll my eyes at mom and I'd write down which mom and how what a genius she is and how amazing.

Michelle Nietert (23:01)
I'd roll my eyes at mom and I would come home and tell my mom and that what a genius she is and how amazing she is. And I'm sure that I now I have so much empathy for my mom in that situation.

Shannon Popkin (23:16)
I think there's something hormonal. Like when you're in puberty

Michelle Nietert (23:20)
It's so cool. But also I will tell you this. I think part of what does also change in my own relationship with my mother is my mother has learned to

Michelle Nietert (23:27)
respect me as an adult. She asked permission before she speaks into my life. And we we need to get to that one too, as part of this.

Shannon Popkin (23:27)
Is asking permission. I think that's really important because like again, if it's not the right time or place, I don't want to hear that. Well, and I love though what you

Shannon Popkin (23:42)
About community and them being able to hear it from someone else. I remember a woman saying to me, I I shared that I was mentoring a girl and she said, Well, why would she need mentoring? She has Christian parents and I thought that's a that's a different like

Michelle Nietert (23:50)
to me, I I shared that I was mentoring girl and she said, Well, why would she need mentoring? She has Christian parents. Mm-hmm. And I thought, that's that's a different like Not only that, but here's the thing. I prayed for my kids' mentors. Gary Smalley and Greg's parent Smalley talked about that as the that is the one of the biggest factors of sticky faith and things like that in their research too. Others but here's the other thing.

Shannon Popkin (24:05)
Yes, it's a blessing. Molly talked about that is the that is the one of the biggest factors of sticky faith. Yeah. And things like that. It's having others than your parents. They need that, just as scripture talks about, they need the whole body to become the whole people.

Michelle Nietert (24:15)
They need that, just as scripture talks about, they need the whole body to become the whole people that God wants them to be to serve his kingdom. I keep thinking back to control.

Shannon Popkin (24:21)
That God wants them to be to serve his kingdom. I keep thinking back to control things and so I I mean this to be judgy things but but control I think controlling women can can

Michelle Nietert (24:26)
I I mean this to be judgy things. I know. But you're good. I think controlling women But doesn't co doesn't the desire to control lead to words of judgment? It does. They they do they they pair very neatly, yes. But I think we as controlling women we produce some of the godliest looking things.

Shannon Popkin (24:34)
It does. They they do pair very neatly, yes. But I think we as controlling women, we produce some of the godliest looking families, but that is not what we want. We want God to work. I mean, because those kids graduate and they leave the faith, right? this is not a product of what we can accomplish in the time that we are raising these kids in our home. We want for God to accomplish what only He can accomplish and He is the only one who can produce a true child of God. We can't do it.

Michelle Nietert (24:45)
No, and it's a heart thing, it's not a behavioral thing. So and that's the every time I start

Shannon Popkin (25:04)
It's not a behavioral thing.

Michelle Nietert (25:09)
worrying about the what I see going on in the bank account, because I can still see mine's

Michelle Nietert (25:13)
bank accounts. Or I see the room and things like that. And then I laugh because the reason they're not attending to some of those things is they're out serving the kingdom like their mother. You know, and and and that's the thing is like I I think we can get lost in the weeds really easily. And so I think as Christian parents too, we we if if you are naturally bent this way

Michelle Nietert (25:40)
You want to spend more time thinking about what is my kid doing right than what is my kid doing wrong. And that helps with judgment.

Shannon Popkin (25:44)
Then what is my kids doing? Well and and maybe helps with judgment. Maybe add to our list. Let's gratitude, right? Gratitude can be a really great perspective setter, right? You're saying we need to back up and look at the bigger picture. I remember speaking at an event once and a woman came up afterward and said, You know what, I have been I was talking about control and again they pair really t tightly. she'd been judging her husband because he was an alcoholic. And so it is so

Michelle Nietert (25:50)
Yeah. Right. And That's a hard one too.

Shannon Popkin (26:11)
Well, and I think they were divorced at this point. But she she

Michelle Nietert (26:12)
she she said you know

Shannon Popkin (26:15)
said, you know, there he was an alcoholic, but I did not I'm realizing right now as a controlling woman. there was a lot I could have been grateful for. Like he was a really good dad and still is. And so she called him in a break at this retreat and just said, you know what? God has convicted my heart. Where I have been this overbearing, I have been breathing down your neck and trying to control you and judging you. Whereas like that's just that wasn't my role. And I just want to tell you, I want to bless you and tell you, I'm

Michelle Nietert (26:28)
Really good dad and still is. And so she called him in a break at this retreat. wow.

Shannon Popkin (26:48)
really grateful. That you've been such a good dad to our kids. Like she's like when he's not drinking, he's amazing, right?

Michelle Nietert (26:50)
Yeah. but let's get back to this issue we talked a little bit about sometimes our temptation to judge has to do with that that we want the reflection to be good and it's part of our extension. Yeah, yeah. But also,

Shannon Popkin (26:54)
And it's part of our extension. Projecting. Yeah. Yeah. But also we're we're worried about our kids, and I think that's natural part of it is we want them to have these great futures.

Michelle Nietert (27:06)
we're we're worried about our kids. and I think that's natural because we w part of it is we want them to have these great futures, the thing I think we also have to remember. c you know, young adults are messy looking.

Shannon Popkin (27:17)
we you know, young adults are messy looking, and if they're walking with the Lord.

Michelle Nietert (27:21)
And if they're walking with the Lord, like you said, there's some gratefulness there. And then we got to decide if we even want to address this issue. But let's go back to kind of our little like, like we're going through these steps, you and I. And so we kind of got to where we talked about, like, I think we we don't we don't make an opening, we look for an opening. And then the next step is hey, there's something been on my mind and my heart I'd like to talk to you about. Are you open to hearing?

Michelle Nietert (27:46)
about that. And then you don't go into a sermon. You start with, I'm having a hard time understanding like about this, a church, you know, that you're not in church right now. Can you tell me how that happened? I'd I'd like to know more about what's going on with that with you. And then here's the thing that's really important. We gotta listen because the first thing they're s gonna say is not always the thing that matters. And this is what I find

Michelle Nietert (28:15)
You know, and that's why it's so nice that a counseling coaching session is forty five to fifty minutes. You know when they usually peel off that onion layer? is towards the end of the session. They're like, Well, what if it's just that I just I mean, I just don't think I fit anywhere and so I'm kinda tired of trying not to fit anywhere. And then that helps us with the empathy. Yeah.

Michelle Nietert (28:35)
And and and the understanding that there's a rejection component to church attendance for a lot of us. I mean, it's not just kids. A lot of us struggle with that. So okay, let's shift it just a little bit like let's let's use

Shannon Popkin (28:40)
So okay, let's shift it just a little like let's let's use and again I'm not using a a scenario that's true to my life, it why don't we use one that's true?

Michelle Nietert (28:47)
And again, I'm not using a a scenario that's true to my life. use why don't we use one that's true to mine? You wanna use one that's true to mine? We talked about it. And I think

Shannon Popkin (28:53)
You could, yeah.

Michelle Nietert (28:54)
Okay. I ended up in a bad situation where I ended up getting really sick and going into what I now know is endocrinatic shock. But when the emergency people

Michelle Nietert (29:06)
got there my husband and I are pretty sure because there was just this lack of compassion going on and I'm screaming in pain.

Shannon Popkin (29:09)
There is the hospital.

Michelle Nietert (29:14)
Well, first it was even in our home. There was like and again,

Shannon Popkin (29:16)
okay.

Michelle Nietert (29:18)
they're in crisis mode so they're kind of not like they're not gonna be UG counselors. Their their job is to stabilize the medical condition when they're in your home.

Shannon Popkin (29:25)
Let's just let's let's just set the scene. What did you call that again? So I was going into endocrinatic shop. Which is basic

Michelle Nietert (29:27)
So I was going into endocrinatic shock, it turns out, which meant basically my nervous system was shutting down and I was becoming paralyzed. Now we now know you and I've talked about due to an allergical reaction. I did not know that at the time and I'd been having this series of these events. But but because everything was unexplainable and I was screaming out and I'd recently had surgeries and I realized now there was a cabinet open and there were prescription bottles you could see there.

Shannon Popkin (29:39)
Okay. I did not know that at the time. Okay. And I've been having this series of these events. I think those first responders thought it might be a substance abuse issue or abuse issue or and and you have to realize they see a lot of that in our culture today, even in places where you wouldn't expect it.

Michelle Nietert (29:55)
I think those first responders thought it might be a substance abuse issue or use issue. Or and and you have to realize they see a lot of that in our culture today, even in places where you wouldn't expect it. And so that carried on to the hospital where there was just a lack of compassion for my pain.

Shannon Popkin (30:07)
they wanted me to quit screaming so loudly, the doctor wasn't coming very quickly, and then when my husband, who's a healthcare consultant, kind of said, Hey

Michelle Nietert (30:13)
they wanted me to quit screaming so loudly. The doctor wasn't coming very quickly. And then when my husband, who's a healthcare consultant, kind of said, Hey, I don't know what's going on because

Michelle Nietert (30:22)
they don't seem to care, like in a way I've never seen before.

Shannon Popkin (30:25)
When my husband explained he was a healthcare consultant, you know, and he's not even sure they're following protocols, and that I'm a mental health professional and that I'm doing the best I can to manage this pain. and he's never seen me like this before and he's a little scared. All of a sudden the tone and the manner of everything changed. And then they they were treating you differently if you were an addict versus if I was just

Michelle Nietert (30:33)
And that I'm doing the best I can to manage this pain. and he's never seen me like this before. And he's a little scared. And then they gave me something differently if you were an addict. Yes. If I was just a your average suburban mom And and they misdiagnosed me again.

Shannon Popkin (30:53)
diagnosed me again.

Michelle Nietert (30:54)
But I knew I was paralyzed at that point. And I thought it was, I'm like, I know it's not anaphyla anaphylactic shock, but I don't understand. I but I made a point with an allergist And the minute I saw her, she I mean, I wouldn't even tend

Shannon Popkin (30:54)
I but I made a point with an allergist Sure. And the minute I saw her, she I mean, I went even ten minutes into explaining the whole history and she's like, I'm I'm I'm ninety percent sure I know exactly the what you have, but we're gonna run.

Michelle Nietert (31:05)
minutes and explaining the whole history and she's like I'm I'm I'm 90% sure I know exactly what you have but we're gonna write a blood test. And it turns out I didn't know you could do this, but as a woman in my 50s going through some hormonal changes, I developed an allergy to shellfish. And so here but the difference in how they treated us. So I felt very judged.

Shannon Popkin (31:12)
Because because they and here's the hard thing, and I think this is so true of all this, isn't that interesting? When we don't know.

Michelle Nietert (31:25)
When we don't know, then we're more tempted to judge. And I think it's really important that we give people the benefit of the doubt. I think it's honoring the spirit of God and the creation of God in them when we do that. You know what is so interesting because I just wrote a lesson in this book about the Pharisees, and one of the things I pointed out is that they thought they knew.

Michelle Nietert (31:53)
Yeah. Well, and these healthcare professionals all thought they knew until I saw this allergy specialist and she knew something else. And

Shannon Popkin (32:02)
And as

Michelle Nietert (32:04)
this.

Shannon Popkin (32:04)
And and this is a scenario, sh being allergic to shellfish, this is outside of right and wrong. This is like imposing judgment on something that doesn't assume the w here's

Michelle Nietert (32:07)
This is outside of right and wrong. This is like imposing judgment on something that's It's assuming the wor here's what I think. And and this is a really great I love this. I talk about this all the time. great counselors and great coaches, Christian coaches, are trained to assume the best in people.

Shannon Popkin (32:20)
Christian coaches are trained to assume the best. Yeah. And I think we are reflections of God in that. And then we can also know that every one of us, I'm gonna be a little theological here for just a minute. Please are in the process of sanctification, and we are not done with that yet. And so we're all in the

Michelle Nietert (32:40)
So I can see who somebody's gonna become, even though they're not there yet. And they may not make it, but when you treat people like that, they're more, and let me tell you, this is so true with your adult kids. Instead of judging them, people are more likely to become who you see them becoming.

Shannon Popkin (32:54)
people are more likely to become who you see them becoming. Yeah.

Michelle Nietert (32:57)
So when you see them as becoming

Shannon Popkin (32:57)
So when you see them as becoming like in a struggle with God, but resolving that issue, they're more likely to move towards that. Yeah. And so and that's why I think we gotta be really careful about judging.

Michelle Nietert (32:59)
Like in a struggle with God, but resolving that issue, they are more likely to move towards that and stuff. Conviction I'm going to use to move me forward. But that you know what I find that rarely comes from other people. I rarely am convicted by other people. I I occasionally I'll have a conversation and I might be yeah inspired

Shannon Popkin (33:10)
I rarely sit people. Right. I I occasionally maybe inspired and I might be yeah, inspired.

Michelle Nietert (33:23)
by them or as I'm talking I might could find conviction in myself. I clients do that. So here's the thing.

Shannon Popkin (33:26)
in myself.

Michelle Nietert (33:29)
When I'm with a client, I don't want to convict them. I want them to convict themselves because that's gonna produce better fruit. So and that's where I think questions come in really well. but also it is assuming that, you know, truly it says we're in Christ and Christ is in us, that idea that if they're truly in Christ, then the Christ in them.

Michelle Nietert (33:54)
It's going to work it out That's so good. Yeah, I in that story with

Shannon Popkin (33:56)
it's so good. Yeah, I think in that story with the blind man, he had done nothing wrong. Yeah. He and Jesus said that. It was not because of his sin or his parents' sin. just like you with the shellfish. You had not done I mean, you ate lobster and that is not a sin. That is not a sin. Right, exactly. But when we presume that it it's we're almost like

Michelle Nietert (34:01)
He had done nothing wrong. Yeah. You had not done I mean you imposter and I didn't know it. I didn't know I was gonna have an allergic reaction Right, exactly. But when we presume that it it's we're almost like scoot over the Lord, I'm gonna take the the spot beh at the bench and I will take your gun. And and

Shannon Popkin (34:19)
Scoot over Lord, I'm gonna take the the spot be at the bench and I will take your gavel. And and we don't just take a gavel between right and wrong, we take that final gavel with our contempt. Like the way that you were treated with contempt. It's like she's sh you know, I have measured her whole life. It wasn't just criticism, it was contempt. Yeah. They didn't know me. Yeah. And they didn't know my story.

Michelle Nietert (34:25)
We don't just take a gavel between and wrong. We take that final gavel with Like the way that you were treated with contempt. know, I've measured her whole life. Yeah. and contempt is Gottman talks a lot about this. It's very destructive to relationships because criticism is criticizing what someone does. Contempt is taking a j a negative view of who they are.

Shannon Popkin (34:38)
but if we just Gottman talks a lot about this, it's very destructive to relationships. It is because criticism is criticizing what someone does. Yeah, it's like the sum shame. Yes. It's the sum total of who they are. I have it's it's assuming I have seen everything in your heart.

Michelle Nietert (34:50)
And that creates shame. Icky icky shame. Some of who they are. Yeah. I know everything about you and I And your future. Right, your future potential who you're going to be Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (34:59)
I know everything about you and I am right. You're f who you're going to become. And I have gathered all of that evidence and made my final decision and you are worthless. Like that's what contempt is. And that is just not our place. And so I love that you're calling us to let God be the one to judge because He will and He is far more equipped, infinitely more equipped to do so. Do you want your fruit or God's fruit? And they're like,

Michelle Nietert (35:08)
And you are worthless. And so I love that you're calling us to let God be the one to judge, because He will, and He is far more equipped. He creates much better fruit. That's what I tell parents in my office. And they're like, my fruit is not good fruit, you know. And I'm like, then leave it alone. Leave it alone. I mean, pray for

Shannon Popkin (35:27)
Yeah. Well it's alone.

Michelle Nietert (35:32)
But here's the thing that's hard,

Michelle Nietert (35:33)
While we're not gonna judge, we also need to not enable bad behavior around me that could be harmful to me or harmful to others. like this is what I deal with in my office a lot. So let's say you're married to somebody who's hurting you and who's hurting your kids. And it's one thing, and

Shannon Popkin (35:47)
It's one thing.

Michelle Nietert (35:48)
this is where I like John Townsend and Henry Cloud's work. And they talk about the difference between hurt and harm. So I do think you are we are accountable, you know, in in the in the counseling profession, one of our biggest roles is do no harm. And I think we are accountable to God to do no harm on this earth. We are gonna hurt people because we are hurt people.

Michelle Nietert (36:09)
And that's what hurt people do, they hurt people. And the difference between that is harm comes when I I have to I'm not judging someone, but if they're hurting me and others in our home, then there do have to be and this is where we get into the boundaries working

Shannon Popkin (36:14)
Harm comes when I I have to I'm not judging someone, but if they're hurting me and others in our home, then there do have to be and this is where we get into the boundaries where hurting or harming. When they're harming. Thank you for correcting that. 'Cause it's so hard to distinguish that sometimes. And it's hard to distinguish that. And I think you need wise counsel, whether it's your pastor, whether it's your small group leader.

Michelle Nietert (36:27)
Thank you for correcting me 'cause it's so hard to distinguish that sometimes. And I think you need wise counsel, whether it's your pastor, whether it's your small group leader, whether it's and and you gotta seek out really wise counsel, not the counsel you just wanna hear. Can I just say how perfect that is what you just said? Okay. Because

Shannon Popkin (36:38)
Whether it's and and you gotta seek out really wise counsel, not the counsel you just wanna hear Can I just pause and say how powerful that is what you just said? Because we can't necessarily see when we're in the middle of it.

Michelle Nietert (36:47)
Necessarily see looking at we can't, we're in the pool. And we the reason you need a coach sometime is because your friends are in the pool and your family's in the pool, and you need somebody out of the pool to help you get out of the pool. So So you're not just working out of the logic, you're not just working like right now, we got a generation working out of just.

Michelle Nietert (37:02)
Emotional, right? Previous generations, just the logic. Neither one works on their own. That's the if you ever hear me talk about kids, I always say emotions need to be, they don't need to run the bus, but they got to be on the bus.

Shannon Popkin (37:02)
Okay.

Shannon Popkin (37:15)
Okay. emotions are on the bus, but but Jesus is ultimately running that bus, right? So the reason I brought this up is because this is the mind we have to have. And in order to have that mind, you can't be swimming in the middle of the pool because you're hyper aroused and you're in panic mode. Well, and by hyper aroused, I mean your body is just overstimulated. Right. Fight or flight, right? Yeah, we're in fight or flight, freeze, or fawn.

Michelle Nietert (37:31)
We use that word a lot, but it's like, yeah, we're in fight or flight, freeze, or fawn where we're pleasing people and that might come into effect.

Shannon Popkin (37:38)
pleasing people and that might come into effect. we we need some help sometimes to say because we want to make sure we're careful in these situations. But there is a time, and I'm gonna really hit some hard spots, but if you've got younger children in your home and you have an adult child in your home who is being a hundred percent unproductive.

Michelle Nietert (37:42)
But there is a time and I'm gonna really hit some hard spots, but if you've got younger children in your home and you have adult child in your home who is being a hundred per percent unproductive That is harmful to the rest of the children to be in the home with. And it's harmful to your sanity too for that. So, and then this can be your spouse or this could be an adult child. Unproductive people, when you are around them too much, should can become very harmful. I don't like the word toxic because there's we're just overusing that word today. So I'd rather use this word instead. But I think that when you are looking at first of all, you never eject someone out.

Shannon Popkin (38:02)
that is harmful to the rest of the children to be in the home with. Yeah. For that. Yes, I agree.

Shannon Popkin (38:30)
so you might start moving them out a little bit and a little bit more. So that adult child may go stay with somebody for a little while to see if they can be productive somewhere else. Or they may not go stay with somebody. They may go into a treatment center because they're clinically depressed and they need to get up every morning and you don't want to be the one doing it because you got a job and other children you care for. You know what? I just actually talked to someone in this very a very similar situation where they have

Michelle Nietert (38:51)
Very similar situation.

Shannon Popkin (38:53)
an adult living depressed and very unproductive and have

Michelle Nietert (38:55)
Mm-hmm. And very unproductive. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin (38:59)
younger kids and it is hard and so all right so we talked about

Shannon Popkin (39:05)
we want to be merciful yes and yet we don't want to in our in our desire to be merciful contribute to harming others by not and and i'm i'm Jesus did this though with the Pharisees right he was merciful but the parents said he was the least mere merciful to were the Pharisees because

Michelle Nietert (39:06)
Yes. And yet we don't want to in our in our desire to be in mercy, contribute to harming others by not and and I'm I'm Jesus did this though with the Pharisees, right? He was merciful, but the person he was the least merciful to were the Pharisees because they were harming others with their religion. And I call it using good judgment. Okay. Like we don't abandon good judgment for the sake of not judging.

Shannon Popkin (39:25)
I like that distinction. That's so good.

Michelle Nietert (39:33)
That's really good. Yes. Well, in that and I caught wise mind, So I caught wise mind. So we don't

Shannon Popkin (39:38)
don't

Michelle Nietert (39:38)
abandon we don't abandon our wise mind in the midst of that. And then

Shannon Popkin (39:41)
And then

Michelle Nietert (39:43)
because here's the other thing. A wise mind is not reactive. A wise mind is intentional. A wise mind has support behind it and counsel and accountability. And a wise mind, I think, usually, unless it's an emergency, and there are some.

Shannon Popkin (39:46)
Now if somebody's being physically harmed, that's an emergency. That's where you're gonna draw that line. And we need to move fast. And we do have to make immediate somebody's gotta get it, you know.

Michelle Nietert (39:59)
usually move slow. And we do have to make immediate somebody's gotta get it, you know, if that young adult in your home, when you start saying get up and move, starts punching holes in your wall, it's time for an eject in that moment because then we're looking at physical harm.

Shannon Popkin (40:11)
If that young adult in your home, when you start saying get up and move, starts punching holes in your wall, it's time for an eject in that moment. Because then we're looking at physical. Yeah. Is there yeah. And you're gonna and you may think you're being judgmental to do that, but you really are being protective. And you are sho you are reflecting the father's protection of his sheep.

Shannon Popkin (40:33)
Mm-hmm. And again, it's not reactive. It's not what's the word I'm looking for? where you just get mad and blow up. it's not impulsive. Impulsive, that's the word. Yeah,

Michelle Nietert (40:39)
Yeah. That's a good word. Yeah. I think you are tender hearted and you are intentional

Shannon Popkin (40:42)
I think you are tenderhearted and you are intentional yeah, so the opposite of impulsive or angry, you have a situation where someone is being unproductive, someone is an addict.

Shannon Popkin (40:55)
Addiction's one for

Shannon Popkin (40:56)
A fairs, add abuse, and addictions are deal breakers when you have an addiction, when it's a compulsive thing

Michelle Nietert (41:00)
when it's a compulsive thing and it's and it's destructive to the attachment of our family in our marriage, then it has to be addressed.

Michelle Nietert (41:09)
so Michelle, I've got one of your books right here in front of me, Strong and Secure, A hundred Devotions for Young Women. So you really serve this younger generation. so where can where can people find you and your books

Michelle Nietert (41:23)
Yeah, and actually that is a great book because it of what we're talking about because it's about the father heart of God. So it came out of this idea that Lynn and I had that both of us had these experiences where the idea of a father didn't really give us positive ideas about God necessarily, because of our own earthly fathers and their flaws. And so we wanted to introduce young women to their heavenly father,

Michelle Nietert (41:50)
So you can find more information about this book on your mental healthcoach.com or I love for you to find me on social media. My last name is a little hard to spell. It's N-I-E-T-E-R-T. And it's like if you need her, find Miss Niedert. That's what the kids said when I was the crisis counselor at the high school. But yeah, I love working with this age group.

Shannon Popkin (41:50)
Okay. I love it. I love it. But yeah, I love working with this age group and I really like working with this age group's parents. And I think that's because I'm living it with.

Michelle Nietert (42:10)
And I really like working with this age group's parents. I love it. Grab it, grab a copy of this for your young adult daughter. Really,

Shannon Popkin (42:14)
I love it. Yeah. Who who's the age?

Michelle Nietert (42:20)
we wrote it for like a mature 16-year-old. Now it talks about some mental health issues. So if your child is very naive, your 15-year-old might not you might not

Michelle Nietert (42:28)
want that for them. It talks about self-harm and suicide and eating disorders because even if your own child's not struggled, depression with some of these things they know someone who has and we want to equip them well for that.

Shannon Popkin (42:30)
Suicide and eating disorders because even if your own child's not struggled with depression they know someone with some of these things they know someone who has and we want to equip them well for that. That's good so mature sixteen year old, but really all the way to twenty two. Like the gift the book was designed to be a gift for like graduation or like right now going off to college, like you stick it in the basket with everything else. Strong and secure. Desperate, you know.

Michelle Nietert (42:38)
And then when they're desperate, you know, hopefully that God might just point them in the direction of his word that way.